Advent Talk
Issues & Concerns Category => 3ABN => Topic started by: Artiste on October 13, 2011, 01:59:17 PM
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What is the cause of the deep-seated and long-running problems with 3ABN?
If 3ABN was a ministry not connected with the Seventh-day Adventist church, would we be equally concerned about what has been going on there? Although the quasi relationship between 3ABN and the SDA church is ambiguous, the church appears to continue to protect 3ABN with their blessing.
As one of our AT members, princessdi, put it so eloquently upon attending a convocation where Dr Yvonne Lewis was promoting the 3ABN urban channel, "Dr. Graham (President of PUC) and Pastor Pedersen (President of NCC) were both sitting right there grinnin' and nodding in approval".
[Ricardo Graham is the president of the Pacific Union Conference of Seventh-day Adventists.]
If there is a 300 pound gorilla sitting in the room with 3ABN, is anyone going to prevail against them?
What are your thoughts?
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My thoughts about the S.D.A. church not responding to the offenses with 3ABN is this:
What do you do with an Independent Ministry that has gained the respect of many around the world, people are so on board that they give their tithes and offerings to further the gospel with that entity. 3ABN may not be so glorified in the eyes of the Church but what can they do?
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In dealing with the 300 lb. gorilla (note that it was not called an 800 lb. gorilla -- not that powerful?), I would first of all suggest that this is not a criticism of the principles and beliefs of the Seventh-day Adventist church.
As was mentioned in another thread, church leaders are also having difficulty with the opposite end of the spectrum which is the evolution vs. creation debate and the debacle at La Sierra University. And by difficulty, I mean that some almost appear to sanction the teaching of evolution...some kind of faith-based evolution I assume.
Should we pray for our church leaders?
Is there a more proactive solution?
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Those of us who are committed Seventh-day Adventists would like to think that our church will always be there for us.
But will it?
From one of our church founders and messenger of the Lord, Ellen White:
“In the balances of the sanctuary the Seventh-day Adventist church is to be weighed. She will be judged by the privileges and advantages that she has had. If her spiritual experience does not correspond to the advantages that Christ, at infinite cost, has bestowed on her, if the blessings conferred have not qualified her to do the work entrusted to her, on her will be pronounced the sentence: “Found wanting.” By the light bestowed, the opportunities given, will she be judged. . . . ” {LDE 59.3}
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While some may know what LDE means, others probably do not. It might be helpfull when you cite such to spell it out in full so they could check it out if they wished.
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While some may know what LDE means, others probably do not. It might be helpfull when you cite such to spell it out in full so they could check it out if they wished.
Ellen G White, Last Day Events, 1992. 330 pp. Instruction regarding the end time.
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Thank you, Johann.
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Prayer changes things and is the first and most proactive thing we all should be doing.
Also, EGW says that even though the SDA Church may appear about to fall, it will not fall.
In dealing with the 300 lb. gorilla (note that it was not called an 800 lb. gorilla -- not that powerful?), I would first of all suggest that this is not a criticism of the principles and beliefs of the Seventh-day Adventist church.
As was mentioned in another thread, church leaders are also having difficulty with the opposite end of the spectrum which is the evolution vs. creation debate and the debacle at La Sierra University. And by difficulty, I mean that some almost appear to sanction the teaching of evolution...some kind of faith-based evolution I assume.
Should we pray for our church leaders?
Is there a more proactive solution?
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That's true, Daryl, and thanks for the reminder.
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What could prayer accomplish? Or is it wrong to ask that question?
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What would be wrong with the question?
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That's the question
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Ellen G. White in the letter to Elders Butler and Haskell, dated December 8, 1886, wrote very pointedly concerning the relationship between the Jewish Church of Christ's day, and the Seventh-day Adventist Church. It is from this letter that the oft-used quotation is to be found- "The church many appear as about to fall, but it does not fall. It remains while the sinners in Zion will be sifted out-the chaff separated from the precious wheat."The letter is talking about the Church when "Satan will work his miracles to deceive; he will set up his power as supreme. "It is stated in the setting when "the decree of national councils" and "the national laws" shall seek to enforce the observance of the false Sabbath. (ibid p.380). That time is now. "When it does come, we will then be able better "to measure the strength of Israel."
There is no such thing as a perpetual anointing by God. Even Adam and Eve learned the hard way the wages of sin. Do you think that you can willfully disregard sin and expect God's anointing? There is absolutely no sanctuary in the fact that this is the Adventist Church, to the contrary like the Jews of old the penalty is worse for those who have had great light. THE WILLFUL NEGLECT TO CORRECT OPEN SIN AT 3ABN AND THE CHURCH'S UNWILLINGNESS TO CORRECT IT WILL IN THE END CAUSE CATASTROPHY. The people here though derided and scorn, if listened to could help the church avoid what most certainly will be catastrophic if not for the church the individuals and their salvation. Danny's salvation is at stake and that is not a thing to take lightly.
Prayer changes things and is the first and most proactive thing we all should be doing.
Also, EGW says that even though the SDA Church may appear about to fall, it will not fall.
In dealing with the 300 lb. gorilla (note that it was not called an 800 lb. gorilla -- not that powerful?), I would first of all suggest that this is not a criticism of the principles and beliefs of the Seventh-day Adventist church.
As was mentioned in another thread, church leaders are also having difficulty with the opposite end of the spectrum which is the evolution vs. creation debate and the debacle at La Sierra University. And by difficulty, I mean that some almost appear to sanction the teaching of evolution...some kind of faith-based evolution I assume.
Should we pray for our church leaders?
Is there a more proactive solution?
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Well, Pastor Johann, as I see it prayer could accomplish several things.
It could change the hearts and minds of our leaders so they could become courageous enough to stand up against wrong. If they really had the courage, they could divest themselves of any association with 3ABN, knowing that they would have to provide the membership an honest and truthful explantion.
Prayer could change our minds and how we view this, and decide to leaving this situation soley in the hands of God. After all these years, and the knowledge that GC is aware of the issues, this might be a real option.
It could also move Danny adn 3ABN to clean up their act, and rightly represent Christ and the church and biblical message to which they voluntarily attach themselves......when not in court, that is.........
Another question is are we willing to allow God to work this out in His time. I believe there has been ample time put into to this effort to affect justice ourselves, to know that this probably will not happen through any efforts or ours. Is it time to allow God to work it all out according to His will?
One more thought I had is this. The efforts really have been made to accomplish a specific desired result. If we do allow God to work and He doesn't see fit to settle this according to that desired result, will we then end up like Jonah.....sitting in thehot sun angry because God didn't give him the deisred result, having more compassion for a tree than for God's people?
No one has to answer these questions, they are just food for thought.
What could prayer accomplish? Or is it wrong to ask that question?
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I don't believe that allowing God to work means not speaking up anymore.
As far as Jonah goes, Nineveh repented, and at the king's command everyone donned sackcloth. I have yet to hear from King Danny anything akin to repentance, which biblically would include making restitution for what he has taken from 3ABN and myself, and fully disclosing all his income and assets to Linda so that they can finally finish dividing their marital property.
Recent communications suggest that Danny is up to his old tricks of covering up for his family members through pressure behind the scenes, and threats of embarrassment in court.
If things do not change, the men of Nineveh may arise in judgment and condemn Danny and 3ABN, because they did repent at the preaching of Jonah.
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I don't believe that allowing God to work means not speaking up anymore.
What do you think constitutes speaking up?
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What was the offence of the Galatians? Why did Paul not just forgive them according to the 7x70 formula, but called them "You idiots!"
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"You idiots! You must be bewitched, to have lost the vision of Jesus Christ crucified. Tell me: did you gain life in the Spirit by meeting the law's requirements or by believing the good news? How can you be so stupid? Having begun on the spiritual path, do you now expect keeping the rules to see you home? Does all that you have experienced mean nothing now? Is that where you have ended up? Tell me: when God gives you the Spirit and causes miracles to happen for you, is that because you stick to the regulations or because you believe the Gospel?"
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I think Paul mentions hypocrisy.
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But they were still the Christian Church
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I don't believe that allowing God to work means not speaking up anymore.
What do you think constitutes speaking up?
Some would advocate not saying anything at all, and just letting God take care of it. I don't see a problem saying whenever opportunity arises that Danny really needs to return the money he's taken from 3ABN, regardless of whether the board approved of his obtaining that money or not. Those 3ABN asks for money from need to know how that money has been spent, including paying for 3ABN and Danny's lawsuit against those who blew the whistle on Danny's cover up of Tommy's molestation of children.
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Possibly the 3ABN situation as well as La Sierra's teaching of evolution is not being handled well by church leadership because of deterioration of the quality of the leadership.
Ellen White had some interesting things to say on the subject:
It is not wise to choose one man as president of the General Conference... (TM 342, 1895)
The General Conference is itself becoming corrupted with wrong sentiments and principles... (TM 359, 1895)
It has been some time since I have considered the General Conference as the voice of God. (17MR 216, 1898)
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History is repeating itself to a great degree. Somehow the church has become the arbitrator of truth instead of the conduit for truth. There will never be salvation in the church it will always be through Jesus Christ. The Jews had the truth but in the end became the accusers of Christ the one they were to represent. They started out as the defense lawyers and ended up being the prosecuting attorney against their own client.
Can't we see what is happening God is judging the church now, pleading with it, and weighing it in the balance. Did anyone take notice that the offshoot group that was in the news recently in as little as two months had the entire civilized world on edge thinking wondering and mocking the coming of Christ? And why? Because these people though deluded actually believed and practiced what they believed and in a short, very short time, their message was put out to the entire world. There is a power in the truth to move people but that power is not the Holy Spirit. It takes the Holy Spirit along with truth to change the heart and give people the power to overcome sin. Without the Holy Spirit we have the law condemning the brothering to a life of sin and perpetual tithe collecting. There are concessions to the church the numbers grow and so sin flourishes in a people who have a form of Godliness but deny the power thereof.
Possibly the 3ABN situation as well as La Sierra's teaching of evolution is not being handled well by church leadership because of deterioration of the quality of the leadership.
Ellen White had some interesting things to say on the subject:
It is not wise to choose one man as president of the General Conference... (TM 342, 1895)
The General Conference is itself becoming corrupted with wrong sentiments and principles... (TM 359, 1895)
It has been some time since I have considered the General Conference as the voice of God. (17MR 216, 1898)
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Yesterday afternoon a friend who is a professor emeritus of Old Testament stopped by for a visit before he returns to his home in America. We had an interesting talk about the book of Daniel and how its message could bring a revival to the Church these days.
Does anyone claim that a clearer understanding of how the prophecies are being fulfilled or a keener conviction of who is the Anti Christ bring such a revival? My friend pointed to several instances where Ellen G White tells us how we are to deal with fellow Christians in other denominations and that we are not to provoke them.
He pointed to the key question in the book of Daniel 3:15, "And who is the god who will deliver you from my hands?”
We need to know that God in our own lives. How?
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Ellen G White tells us how we are to deal with fellow Christians in other denominations and that we are not to provoke them.
Do you think that a widespread distribution of the Great Controversy will provoke Christians of other denominations?
I have heard some reports that might indicate that.
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There was a time in the history of the United States that bashing a certain church was a good way to get an audience and gain adherents. Is that as important today as it was then?
Today bashing another world religion seems as important to gain influence among Christian churches, and some are jumping on that band wagon - for better or for worse.
Then you have the "simple minded" Christians who feel their personal relationship with their Lord is what matters.
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Then you have the "simple minded" Christians who feel their personal relationship with their Lord is what matters.
I believe that's the most important.
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Then you have the "simple minded" Christians who feel their personal relationship with their Lord is what matters.
I believe that's the most important.
Watch out, Artiste! You might get bradend for making that statement.
I know they will deny it vehemently, but I have a notion Linda Shelton got whipped out because her devotionals and songs were leaning too much in that direction. They may have feared some of the heavy contributors might limit their contributions unless she was cut off. So what did they get in stead?
It was impossible to fire her just for that, so they had to hitch her on to some affair, and were certain it would work. Well, it did, didn't it?
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Watch out, Artiste! You might get bradend for making that statement.
I know they will deny it vehemently, but I have a notion Linda Shelton got whipped out because her devotionals and songs were leaning too much in that direction. They may have feared some of the heavy contributors might limit their contributions unless she was cut off. So what did they get in stead?
It was impossible to fire her just for that, so they had to hitch her on to some affair, and were certain it would work. Well, it did, didn't it?
Yes, it did!! Praise the Lord! His timing is perfect - there are no accidents!!
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When I was asked to preach in Poland around 1980 I discovered that when I said the word "truth" the interpreter used the word "pravda". I knew that there was a newspaper in Russia called Pravda and that was supposed to mean "truth". Later I asked if the word was used the same way in Polish as in Russian, but I was told that truth is not the same in Moscow as it is in Warshaw.
I also find that "truth" is not the same as it is proclaimed by a person calling himself "truth" - as we define truth. I also notice that when they are making comments on what I have writted here on AT they first change the meaning of what I am saying and then they shoot their self-made strawman to pieces. An interesting attempt to gain adherents which may be very successful for quite a while. But there will be a final judgment.
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I think that in addition to the Pravda, there is other "truth" that is not a good source of information.
With the Seventh-day Adventist leadership refusing to warn the members in the pews that are vulnerable to believing that 3ABN can be trusted, we can expect more and more donations to go there.
When members realize what has been going on for a long number of years, what will be their response to wasting their money in that fashion?
Elder Dan Jackson, take note!
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ITA Artiste! One's personal relationship is most important and from which all else flows. Brand me!
Who is Elder Dan Jackson?
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Elder Dan Jackson is the president of the North American Division of Seventh-day Adventists.
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Elder Dan Jackson is the president of the North American Division of Seventh-day Adventists.
Elected at the latest General Conference session 2010 when Elder Ted Wilson was elected Word President
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Bob, I certainly agree that speaking up is correct thing to do. It is agreed that Danny is one to intimidate and push his way through to accomplish what it is he wants. This is certainly a personal experience of mine with him. He wants to hold everyone around him accountable but when accountability needs to come from him....he is above and beyond his own desires of others. He has called me names, spent hours on the phone trying to justify his divorce from Linda. He has ruined many parts of my life when in reality it was my desire to serve the Lord and give to others the knowledge of the Saving Relationship with Jesus Christ. Danny has laughed at me and put me down privately and publicly. My opinion is not much, but my experience with Danny Shelton has drawn, not the picture that he paints to those around the world "Mending Broken People." NO, rather it is Breaking People to submit to his authority and his leadership, Danny setting himself up to hold accountable those who he judges as lies and sinners. It is Danny that throws the word Christianity around in vain and mocks God everytime he does it.
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my experience with Danny Shelton has drawn, not the picture that he paints to those around the world "Mending Broken People." NO, rather it is Breaking People to submit to his authority and his leadership..
3ABN...motto...Mending Broken People
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Bob, I certainly agree that speaking up is correct thing to do. It is agreed that Danny is one to intimidate and push his way through to accomplish what it is he wants. This is certainly a personal experience of mine with him. He wants to hold everyone around him accountable but when accountability needs to come from him....he is above and beyond his own desires of others. He has called me names, spent hours on the phone trying to justify his divorce from Linda. He has ruined many parts of my life when in reality it was my desire to serve the Lord and give to others the knowledge of the Saving Relationship with Jesus Christ. Danny has laughed at me and put me down privately and publicly. My opinion is not much, but my experience with Danny Shelton has drawn, not the picture that he paints to those around the world "Mending Broken People." NO, rather it is Breaking People to submit to his authority and his leadership, Danny setting himself up to hold accountable those who he judges as lies and sinners. It is Danny that throws the word Christianity around in vain and mocks God everytime he does it.
Welcome, polymark.
Do we have too many leaders like that?
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Yesterday afternoon a friend who is a professor emeritus of Old Testament stopped by for a visit before he returns to his home in America. We had an interesting talk about the book of Daniel and how its message could bring a revival to the Church these days.
Does anyone claim that a clearer understanding of how the prophecies are being fulfilled or a keener conviction of who is the Anti Christ bring such a revival? My friend pointed to several instances where Ellen G White tells us how we are to deal with fellow Christians in other denominations and that we are not to provoke them.
He pointed to the key question in the book of Daniel 3:15, "And who is the god who will deliver you from my hands?”
We need to know that God in our own lives. How?
Expose Fallacy by Presenting Truth—Decided proclamations are to be made. But in regard to this line of work, I am instructed to say to our people: Be guarded. In bearing the message, make no personal thrusts at other churches, not even the Roman Catholic Church. Angels of God see in the different denominations many who can be reached only by the greatest caution. Therefore let us be careful of our words. Let not our ministers follow their own impulses in denouncing and exposing the “mysteries of iniquity.” Upon these themes silence is eloquence. Many are deceived. Speak the truth in tones and words of love. Let Christ Jesus be exalted. Keep to the affirmative of truth. Never leave the straight path God has marked out, for the purpose of giving someone a thrust. That thrust may do much harm and no good. It may quench conviction in many minds. Let the Word of God, which is the truth, tell the story of the inconsistency of those in error. {Ev 576.1}
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In these last days its a huge problem because the presence of Satan are more apparent. The test for the leaders in any ministry is whom do they really serve? Self or God? Where is their allegiance? Is it to man made things (money, houses, cars, status), or a man in general (the created instead of the creator)? The real sign of a true leader, is that Real Leaders make Leaders, Not followers, not a staff that will bow down before you. Not a board that will agree with you or your out the door.
Counteracting the counterfit, humm, after all these years 3ABN has stood on the grounds of Independent, is there a reason? Could it be that Danny, Kenny (who is still owns an Independent Ministry also) are they fighting against the church? Could it be that it was not necessarily the message of Babylon they felt the need to counteract, was it really to seek the tithes and offerings that truly belong to the Remnant Church?
Kenny supposedly had the dream before Danny had the dream. This is what I have been told over and over, and if that is the case then all of what is....isn't so.
It is very obvious that the SDA church is making use of the air time at 3ABN, staying cordial because it has been declared already that "the Independent Ministries will not stand".
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I don't believe that allowing God to work means not speaking up anymore.
What do you think constitutes speaking up?
Some would advocate not saying anything at all, and just letting God take care of it. I don't see a problem saying whenever opportunity arises that Danny really needs to return the money he's taken from 3ABN, regardless of whether the board approved of his obtaining that money or not. Those 3ABN asks for money from need to know how that money has been spent, including paying for 3ABN and Danny's lawsuit against those who blew the whistle on Danny's cover up of Tommy's molestation of children.
I must presume you are dreaming...lest I conclude you are having delusions of minutia!!! Let me check your pulse...after what we know, it is safe to assume this man is not capable of admitting guilt, let alone repaying the first farthing has has taken for his own. Post litigation he has proven a tiger does not change its stripes, nor the leopard it's spots...and he has both...forget a Wolf in Sheeps clothing, this man is the Lion praying upon the flock!!! YES, THE LION !!!
Danny Lee Shelton has a common Non-profit Disease...the management really believe the non-profit is "THEIR" sole proprietorship and treat it as such. Fraud is so rampant in the non-profit world it has become the most profitable criminal syndication in existence!!! Even the Jihadists hide their activity behind the vail of non-profits and mosques.
As we have learned, he has not learned his lesson and only a head on collission with the Cross has any chance at changing this man's EVIL behaviour. And I will declare that his current track is not in the direction the Cross but rather straight into hell!!!
Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter
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But what about the General Conference leadership of Seventh-day Adventists being the ones that enable this behavior?
Lincoln Steed, editor of Liberty magazine, appears on 3ABN this week as well as Mark Finley, former GC Vice President and former speaker of It Is Written TV program.
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But what about the General Conference leadership of Seventh-day Adventists being the ones that enable this behavior?
Lincoln Steed, editor of Liberty magazine, appears on 3ABN this week as well as Mark Finley, former GC Vice President and former speaker of It Is Written TV program.
Feel free to contact them about your concerns. I highly doubt that either of them approves of such behavior.
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But what about the General Conference leadership of Seventh-day Adventists being the ones that enable this behavior?
Lincoln Steed, editor of Liberty magazine, appears on 3ABN this week as well as Mark Finley, former GC Vice President and former speaker of It Is Written TV program.
I know they are watcing this pretty closely.
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Who is watching it?
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You know..."them"!!! :o
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It would be nice if the Adventist church would give its members an official "heads up" about Tommy's situation so they won't feel they have been deceived when they hear about it elsewhere and perhaps it wouldn't shake their faith as much that way. So many seem to think the church is there to protect them and that if they need to be warned the church will do it. Maybe "the church" is waiting for the sentencing?
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It would be nice if the Adventist church would give its members an official "heads up" about Tommy's situation so they won't feel they have been deceived when they hear about it elsewhere and perhaps it wouldn't shake their faith as much that way. So many seem to think the church is there to protect them and that if they need to be warned the church will do it. Maybe "the church" is waiting for the sentencing?
After the massive silence and resultant complicity of "the church" regarding 3ABN matters, I would be surprised if they came out with any statement, whether it was before or after sentencing.
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It would be nice if the Adventist church would give its members an official "heads up" about Tommy's situation so they won't feel they have been deceived when they hear about it elsewhere and perhaps it wouldn't shake their faith as much that way. So many seem to think the church is there to protect them and that if they need to be warned the church will do it. Maybe "the church" is waiting for the sentencing?
After the massive silence and resultant complicity of "the church" regarding 3ABN matters, I would be surprised if they came out with any statement, whether it was before or after sentencing.
I totally agree. It won't happen. The rug of "quiet resolution" is too wide and the broom too big.
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Very nicely put, Snoopy!
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Perhaps the church should ask their legal department about the possible consequences of doing nothing and of their "massive silence and resultant complicity".
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Someone from this page http://gcasconnect.org/leadershipteam.htm reads here almost daily. The adventist auditors are watching.
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Someone from this page http://gcasconnect.org/leadershipteam.htm reads here almost daily. The adventist auditors are watching.
Welcome!