Advent Talk
Issues & Concerns Category => 3ABN => Topic started by: Bob Pickle on February 03, 2012, 11:56:43 AM
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I found the case listed online:
https://w3.courtlink.lexisnexis.com/cookcounty/FindDock.asp?NCase=2011-ch-41916&SearchType=0&Database=3&PLtype=1& (https://w3.courtlink.lexisnexis.com/cookcounty/FindDock.asp?NCase=2011-ch-41916&SearchType=0&Database=3&PLtype=1&)
It only cost $206 for yet another 3ABN lawyer to appear in court on Jan. 20, 2012, as he filed 3ABN's answer to Virginia Surety's complaint.
So what happened? Did Simpson send one of his fire-breathing letters demanding that Virginia Surety defend 3ABN and/or Tommy? Or did Danny call them up and threatened legal action if they didn't? Or did something else happen?
Wish I knew. But it is too bad that 3ABN has been sued yet again.
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It appears to me like that insurance company would never go to court for this unless they expected 3ABN would have to pay very large amount. Or is there another reason they take this to court?
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I find it very interesting how 3ABN, who had launched a lawsuit against Joy & Pickle, are now on the receiving end of more than one lawsuit.
What comes around goes around twofold.
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Johann:
Yes, there is another reason:
NOTE: I do not have any specific knowledge of the situation and I am therefore only commenting in general terms.
The major question is: Is there a policy that VS has issued that covers 3ABN, et.al. for liability for the actions of TS?
If there is such a policy, VS would be required to defend 3-ABN et. al. in any litigation.
Modern liability policies are typically written in such a manner that torts of the nature alleged against TS are excluded from liability coverage. I would find it unusual for 3-ABN to have a current policy that covered such torts. However, the critical issue is not the nature of the current policy, it is the coverage provided by any policies that 3-ABN had at the time the torts are alleged to have been commited. At the time they were alleged to have been committed, many insurance policies provided coverage against such torts. This is the most common type of policy.
However, some current liability policies provide their coverage on the basis of when the litigation is filed, rather than when the tort is alleged to have occured. These policies are marketed on the basis that in the short term they are less expensive than the policies that provided coverage on the basis of when the tort was alleged to have occured. Therefore, it is not known whether 3-ABN has a policy that covers on the basis of when the litigation is filed, or on the basis of when the tort is alleged to have occured, of whether or not 3-ABN has any coverage at all of the tort that is alleged in this lawsuit.
My guess it that if 3-ABN has a policy that is based on the date the litigation is filed, that it excluded coverage for torts that are the basis of the litigation.
O.K. Now, we reach a simple statmenet as to why the insurance company would file litigation against 3-aBN et.al: The insurance company is attempting to obtain a judgement from the court that it is not liable for the alleged torts. If the court so decides, the insurance company will not have to defend 3-ABN et.al.
The million dollage question here is: Is the insurance company liable, or is the insurance company not liable. And, will the insurance company have to defend against the alleged torts?
The insurance company is looking out for its best intersts by attempting to get a court ordr that releases it from all liabilityl.
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Gregory you are correct.
From reading the complaint, apparently 3ABN wanted the insurance company pay their legal fees.
It is evident that the insurance company is saying they do not cover such claims.
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Now for a second question that some may have: Why did the insurance company name TS and Alex as defendents along with 3-ABN?
Very simple. TS potentially could claim that he had a right to be defended by the insurance company under the policy issued to 3-ABN. Alex, on the other hand, potentially has a claim for damages against the insurance company, if it is liable for a judgement against 3-ABN. The insurance company is wisely looking after its own iterests in an attempt to close off all potential claims against it which do include TS and Alex along with 3-ABN.
In one sense, this is a high-stakes game for the insurance company. First it involves both a potential judgement against 3-ABN plus some susbstantial legal costs of defending 3-ABN. But, it involves more than this. If the court determines that 3-ABN has a liability policy that covers this claim, the court, acting on a motion form 3-ABN, will likely order the insurance company to pay the legal fees of 3-ABN. In addition, the State of Texas (I believe Texas regulates the insurance company.), acting on a complaint filed by 3-ABN will likely impose a civil fine on the insurance company. That fine could be $200,000 or more.
In short, this is a high-stakes game for the insurance company. As such, it is likely to aggressively attempt to be severed from this case and is likely to devote whatever legal expenses are needed to sever themselves from teh case. Of course, it is also very important for 3-ABN which will need to aggressively attempt to defeat the attempt of the insurance company to be severed from the case.
Contnue to stand-by folks to see how it develops.
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Is there also a possibility the insurance company is making this a test case to prevent liability in similar cases in the future? Therefore they might fight this one vigorously?
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No.
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Gregory you are correct.
From reading the complaint, apparently 3ABN wanted the insurance company pay their legal fees.
It is evident that the insurance company is saying they do not cover such claims.
Who will then pay if they loose the case?
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If the judge severs the insurance company from the case, 3-ABN will be totally on their own.
NOTE: The above is based upon the assumption that 3-ABN does not have reinsurance, which is unlikely, or any other type of coverage which would apply. IOW, 3-ABN would have to pay to defend itself and for any settlelment.
Let us say that the judge severs the insurance company from the case. In that event, it would be wise for 3-ABN to attempt to reach some sort of settlement without going to trial. The question now would be: Would 3-ABN do the wise thing?
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Do they have a history of acting wisely?
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If the judge severs the insurance company from the case, 3-ABN will be totally on their own.
NOTE: The above is based upon the assumption that 3-ABN does not have reinsurance, which is unlikely, or any other type of coverage which would apply. IOW, 3-ABN would have to pay to defend itself and for any settlelment.
Let us say that the judge severs the insurance company from the case. In that event, it would be wise for 3-ABN to attempt to reach some sort of settlement without going to trial. The question now would be: Would 3-ABN do the wise thing?
Gregory:
And if the insurance company looses? From my understanding it is highly possible that if the insurance company flips the bill that they will also pressure a fast settement to be worked out and spare the expense of a trial.
Your thoughts?
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O.K. Fair question.
In my opinioin:
The insurance company will aggressively seek a settlement outside of going to trial if they think that they have a 75% chance, or less, of losing at trial.
Of course one might argue with the per-centage figure that I have given and ask why I did not say 50% or less. The reason is simple, in the case of an adverse verdict, in a case like this, no one can predict what a jury would award. The insurance company would rather participate in a settlement where they had some control rather than to leave it to a jury that they could not control.
The critical issue is: What is the percentage likelyhood that the insurance company would win at trial? Frankly, the attornies for the insurance company can probably predict pretty well whether or not they would win at trail. What they cannot predict as well is the amount of the judgement that they will recieve if they win. Who know, maybe there are some computer experts somewhere who have the data that they can crunch that would generate a potential financial settlement for the court in which the trial was held. Computer experts can do about anything today. :)
Next question: Who do I think would win if this case went to trial? 1) I do not have enough knowledge about this case to have an opinon as to who is going to win. 2) My opinion a month ago was that this case was not firmly in favor of either side and it could go either way. 3) However, the fact that TS Took an Alford Plea suggests to me that it is more likely to be a judgement against 3-ABN than a favorable judgement for 3-ABN. So, I think the plaintiffs will get something.
NOTE: My comment above is not intended to express an opinon as to whether or not the Alford Plea could become part of the trial record. And, I could be wrong on anything that I have said. :)
Also, my comments above express my thinking on the potential results of a civil trial on the issue at hand and they are not intended to express an opinion on any criminal issue. Judgements on criminal issues should be made by courts, judges and juries and not by me. Why do I make this distinction? As I recall, O.J. Simpson was declared "Not Guilty" in a criminal trial and then had a judgement made aginst him in a civil trial. At least, that is how I remember it. :)
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Another interesting question:
What if the insurance company and the plaintiffs reach an agreement on a settlement and 3-ABN says "No?"
1) If the insurance company defends 3-ABN, it will be in charge of the defense and the primary one in charge.
2) The insurance company could seek to limit their liability and to force 3-ABN to assume some portion of the liaability.
This question has a number of factors complex enough that no definative comment can be made by me. The answer to this question will depend in part, probably, on State law where the trial would take place. It should be noted that California has an iteresting law. In California if a party to a lawsuit makes an offer to settle without going to trial, and that offer is rejected, there are legal consequences of that rejection that can come into play if the award at trial is the same as or less than the offer of settlement.
Folks, litigation is not only expensive but complex.
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3) However, the fact that TS Took an Alford Plea suggests to me that it is more likely to be a judgement against 3-ABN than a favorable judgement for 3-ABN.
I did read somewhere that Alford guilty pleas sometimes have legal consequences, such as not being able to relitigate certain issues. Imagine Tommy's not being able to relitigate whether there was enough evidence in the Virginia case to convict him beyond a reasonable doubt. Imagine being a co-defendant with a pedophile who could not relitigate that issue.
But I have no idea how the Alford plea will affect this case.
What if the insurance company and the plaintiffs reach an agreement on a settlement and 3-ABN says "No?"
This was an issue I had to grapple with when Danny and 3ABN sued me ... until I found out that my insurance wouldn't cover the suit.
In California if a party to a lawsuit makes an offer to settle without going to trial, and that offer is rejected, there are legal consequences of that rejection that can come into play if the award at trial is the same as or less than the offer of settlement.
For the federal equivalent, see Fed.R.Civ.P. 68(d) (http://www.law.cornell.edu/rules/frcp/rule_68#rule_68_d). The word "must" suggests that the court has no discretion in the matter, but must award costs to the defendant. But bare in mind that the plaintiff who in the end receives a less favorable judgment than the offer he rejected must only pay "costs," which could be defined by 28 U.S.C. ยง 1920 (http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/28/usc_sec_28_00001920----000-.html). Attorney fees are not "costs" under that statute.
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I find it very interesting how 3ABN, who had launched a lawsuit against Joy & Pickle, are now on the receiving end of more than one lawsuit.
What comes around goes around twofold.
It tends to mute the great acclaims of victory in the first one.
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I find it very interesting how 3ABN, who had launched a lawsuit against Joy & Pickle, are now on the receiving end of more than one lawsuit.
What comes around goes around twofold.
It tends to mute the great acclaims of victory in the first one.
Even if 3ABN wins against Alex, we are still vindicated. We said that Danny's lies to cover up the child molestation allegations against had placed 3ABN in extreme financial jeopardy if additional incidents had occurred. And they are in jeopardy right now, and whether they ultimately prevail or lose big time does not change that fact.
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Unlikely 3abn will win if it comes to a court trial. They are going to try and take the road of least resistance embarassment and keep this out of court
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A settlement on 3abn's part in this case might spur others to seek a similar settlement.
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3) However, the fact that TS Took an Alford Plea suggests to me that it is more likely to be a judgement against 3-ABN than a favorable judgement for 3-ABN.
I did read somewhere that Alford guilty pleas sometimes have legal consequences, such as not being able to relitigate certain issues. Imagine Tommy's not being able to relitigate whether there was enough evidence in the Virginia case to convict him beyond a reasonable doubt. Imagine being a co-defendant with a pedophile who could not relitigate that issue.
But I have no idea how the Alford plea will affect this case.
Then get a clue!!! The Alford plea ( pleading I didn't do it, I say I'm innocent, but I will accept the court's judgement)was only in response to Dennis Turley's Criminal case. The criminal case in regard to Alex Walker was dropped as were all the charges related to him.
"This case" (not yet available in any Southern district of Illinois, or apparently filed there...) is Alex Walker vs 3ABN, NOT Dennis Turley vs 3ABN!
The Alford plea/ plea bargain was for DT's case, NOT Alex's!
Deal with the actual question for once, Pickle!
HOW WILL ALEX'S LAWSUIT AGAINST 3 ABN BE AFFECTED BY THE CRIMINAL CASE ON HIS BEHALF, AND ALL THE CHARGES ON HIS BEHALF BEING DROPPED?
How, will all the witnesses rebutting his testimony ( the only evidence he has according to the State's attorney is his own inconsistent testimony) affect "this case"? How will this case "Alex's case" being without documentation or witnesses for any but the defendant (Tommy, 3ABN) affect his pursuit of money?
How is Alex gonna overcome all his lies and inconsistencies? ( Go ahead,Bob- ask me to explain that statement. For once I'll answer you --- in detail)
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3) However, the fact that TS Took an Alford Plea suggests to me that it is more likely to be a judgement against 3-ABN than a favorable judgement for 3-ABN.
I did read somewhere that Alford guilty pleas sometimes have legal consequences, such as not being able to relitigate certain issues. Imagine Tommy's not being able to relitigate whether there was enough evidence in the Virginia case to convict him beyond a reasonable doubt. Imagine being a co-defendant with a pedophile who could not relitigate that issue.
But I have no idea how the Alford plea will affect this case.
Then get a clue!!! The Alford plea ( pleading I didn't do it, I say I'm innocent, but I will accept the court's judgement)was only in response to Dennis Turley's Criminal case. The criminal case in regard to Alex Walker was dropped as were all the charges related to him.
"This case" (not yet available in any Southern district of Illinois, or apparently filed there...) is Alex Walker vs 3ABN, NOT Dennis Turley vs 3ABN!
The Alford plea/ plea bargain was for DT's case, NOT Alex's!
Deal with the actual question for once, Pickle!
HOW WILL ALEX'S LAWSUIT AGAINST 3 ABN BE AFFECTED BY THE CRIMINAL CASE ON HIS BEHALF, AND ALL THE CHARGES ON HIS BEHALF BEING DROPPED?
How, will all the witnesses rebutting his testimony ( the only evidence he has according to the State's attorney is his own inconsistent testimony) affect "this case"? How will this case "Alex's case" being without documentation or witnesses for any but the defendant (Tommy, 3ABN) affect his pursuit of money?
How is Alex gonna overcome all his lies and inconsistencies? ( Go ahead,Bob- ask me to explain that statement. For once I'll answer you --- in detail)
Yeah, ok.
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Nosir said:
Then get a clue!!! The Alford plea ( pleading I didn't do it, I say I'm innocent, but I will accept the court's judgement)was only in response to Dennis Turley's Criminal case. The criminal case in regard to Alex Walker was dropped as were all the charges related to him.
While I was not directly addressed, I will weigh in on the Alford Plea. There are two criticle elements of the Alford Plea that have not been mentioned. !) Under the Alford Plea the defendent admits that there is enough evidence against the defendant that the defendant would probably be convicted in a trial. 2) In order to accept an Alford Plea, the judge has to agree that the defendant would probably be convicted in a jury trial.
Yse, "probably" is not 100 per-cent. Yes, this is a lower standard that what would be actually required in a trial.
My statement which was not addressed by Nosir as I also was not addressed was focused on the fact that the Alfore Plea set out the evidence as potentially being enough to convict.
Nosir has raised a point in the comments in regard to Alex and Dennis. I was intellectually aware of those facts when I made my comment bue probably erred in not writing a comment that made the distinction.
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The critical issue in an Alford Plea, in a State court, is what the law, both case law and the statute, says. As TS made his Alford Plea in a Virginia Court, the issue now is: What does Virginia say about Alford Peas? NOTE: Three states do not allow the Alford Plea.
In an effort to be fair to all, I believe that the following is a fair summary of what an Alford Plea means in Virginia:
"An Alford plea means that [defendant] does not admit guilt but concedes that the state has enough evidence to convict him." The Roanoke Times (2009)[86]
"[Defendant] entered an Alford plea, not admitting guilt but conceding that the state had enough evidence to convict him." Richmond Times-Dispatch (2009)[87]
"A defendant who has entered an Alford plea is not an innocent person for the purposes of criminal sentencing and probation. To mitigate the possibility that an innocent person will so plead, a factual basis is required supporting the finding of guilt before an Alford plea can be accepted." Court of Appeals of Virginia (2009)[88]
From the above, it is clear that in Virginia the defendant is not required to admit guilt at the time of the trial, but accepts the punishment of a guilty plea.
However, there is an interesting ruling of the Virginia Court of Appeals as follows below:
http://www.courts.state.va.us/opinions/opncavwp/1860084.pdf
In the above ruling the Court ruled that notwithstanding his Alford Plea, the defendant could be required to admit guilt under other circumstances and a failure to admit guilt could result in legal consequences which resulted in a prison sentence that otherwise had been suspended.
Folks, just part of the complexity of the law.
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Thanks for clarifying that, Gregory.
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There are others out there that are victims. Both have their appetites. That's why one protects the other.
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There are others out there that are victims. Both have their appetites. That's why one protects the other.
Could you elaborate?
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3) However, the fact that TS Took an Alford Plea suggests to me that it is more likely to be a judgement against 3-ABN than a favorable judgement for 3-ABN.
I did read somewhere that Alford guilty pleas sometimes have legal consequences, such as not being able to relitigate certain issues. Imagine Tommy's not being able to relitigate whether there was enough evidence in the Virginia case to convict him beyond a reasonable doubt. Imagine being a co-defendant with a pedophile who could not relitigate that issue.
But I have no idea how the Alford plea will affect this case.
Then get a clue!!! The Alford plea ( pleading I didn't do it, I say I'm innocent, but I will accept the court's judgement)was only in response to Dennis Turley's Criminal case. The criminal case in regard to Alex Walker was dropped as were all the charges related to him.
"This case" (not yet available in any Southern district of Illinois, or apparently filed there...) is Alex Walker vs 3ABN, NOT Dennis Turley vs 3ABN!
The Alford plea/ plea bargain was for DT's case, NOT Alex's!
Deal with the actual question for once, Pickle!
HOW WILL ALEX'S LAWSUIT AGAINST 3 ABN BE AFFECTED BY THE CRIMINAL CASE ON HIS BEHALF, AND ALL THE CHARGES ON HIS BEHALF BEING DROPPED?
How, will all the witnesses rebutting his testimony ( the only evidence he has according to the State's attorney is his own inconsistent testimony) affect "this case"? How will this case "Alex's case" being without documentation or witnesses for any but the defendant (Tommy, 3ABN) affect his pursuit of money?
How is Alex gonna overcome all his lies and inconsistencies? ( Go ahead,Bob- ask me to explain that statement. For once I'll answer you --- in detail)
Here is your clue Nosur.. There would be no court, no problems, nothing if there was no Alex and many others claiming. But evidence on here from you- is squirming worms, crawling in every angle of out let for "innocence" when even his wife knows what is true and other witnesses can confirm. Biblical It only takes 3 witnesses for "guilty". and I hope the judge gives justice for such destruction of lives. If there was no Alex what else can you come up with?? for the rest?? No matter when it took place legally, Absolutely none of it is right but aren't you ashamed to be involved especially fighting for "guilty". lol That makes you guilty too. A sympathizer that needs to be swallowed up too. Pretty dangerous Id say. He is guilty. and I can imagine all the saga is not going to stop there as sooner or later all evil surfaces. Believe it!
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Hi Tinka!!! Good to see you my friend!
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ooppps wrong thread
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Hi Tinka!!! Good to see you my friend!
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Hi again Alex and thank you.
Hopefully this new year will go better for me. It will be one year tomorrow since the love of my life is laid to rest. Been reading about your illness too and yes tragedy is most devastating to mental health. I would never have guessed how bad until it has whipped my strength. I feel like I'm failing really bad just from my incidents. Grief has brought on horrible symtoms of which I realize but hard to get turned around Along with infection all in my head from bad dental work and couple of implants. They took my money and can't get help until restitution so I'm sorta in a bad way and hard spot too right now very weak and up little. smile I'm trying like you have to too. Time and dental surgery for me I know will help. And time passing will finally end all this for you too. It has too! I just can't believe how some will fight against what all knew for many years according to witness from all your distress and others. So sorry
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Now you're making sense Tinka. Right on!
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I'm sorry for all you problems, Tinka. Good to see you posting again. Keep looking up to Jesus!
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Thanks all, if I can just keep my words straight and don't expect people to read between lines. :)
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Thanks all, if I can just keep my words straight and don't expect people to read between lines. :)
Welcome back. Just keep it rolling. :hamster: :TY:
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A year ago Walt Thompson wrote:
Fortunately, all indications are that our insurance will pick up the bill for our defense so that it should not fall back on the viewers and supporters of the ministry.
Wonder if that is really true.
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1) Defense costs are often unlimited, if the coverage is provided and if the insurance company is in charge of the defense. IOW the insurance company does not pay legal costs that they did in incur. e.g. is 3-ABN goes on its own, it is responsible for those costs.
2) Monetary costs may have a deductable, co-pay and/or a limit on the amount paid.
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It gets a little confusing.
Are there two lawsuits involving 3ABN and Alex Walker?
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It gets a little confusing.
Are there two lawsuits involving 3ABN and Alex Walker?
Two. One by Alex against Tommy and 3ABN, and another by 3ABN's insurance company against Tommy, 3ABN, and Alex.
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So is the current lawsuit of Alex against Tommy Shelton and 3ABN a criminal or civil one?
Being that Tommy is already in prison.
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Civil
Alex, as a private citizen cannot initate a criminal lawsuit agains anyone. Criminal actions can only be initated by a governmental agen authorized to do so, or is unusual circumstances by a private citizen who has been given special poweres to do so.
GM
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I take it that the lawsuit that put Tommy Shelton in prison was a criminal one, then.
Was it instigated by the government?
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TS Went to prison based upon criminal charges that were filed against him by a government official. Most people would not cal that a lawsuit, but you can if you wish.
NOTE: I am well aware fo the process that included a Grand Jury, I believe.
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Grand jury
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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A grand jury is a type of jury that determines whether a criminal indictment will be issued. Currently, only the United States retains grand juries, although some other common law jurisdictions formerly employed them, and most other jurisdictions employ some other type of preliminary hearing. In Ireland, they also functioned as local government authorities.
A grand jury is so named because it has a greater number of jurors than a trial jury (also known as a petit jury, from the French for small).