Advent Talk
General Category => General Discussions => Topic started by: Johann on June 08, 2012, 07:28:36 PM
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American Administrators Visit Ordained Female Pastors in China
See
http://www.atoday.org/article/1214/news/june-headlines/american-denominational-administrators-visit-women-serving-as-ordained-ministers-in-the-adventist-church-in-china
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American Administrators Visit Ordained Female Pastors in China
See
http://www.atoday.org/article/1214/news/june-headlines/american-denominational-administrators-visit-women-serving-as-ordained-ministers-in-the-adventist-church-in-china
Dont worry Johann there will be women ordinations in mass and just like the music styles of different churches some will except and some will reject. Thus in the end two groups will be formed in the church those that are considered fanatical and those who see themselves as progressive. A few will be considered fanatical and they will be persecuted while the vast majority will follow the trend of the nominal church and in the end will mirrow their counterparts. On the other hand the battle will rage on with some pointing out the fact that all the diciples were men and Jesus was a man. Some will see that and make the point that all were jews and none were Black Chinese or Indian. Some will remember the lady that Judged Israel and use that as a measurement. Some will use the fact that Ellen White was a woman. Some will use the fact how come the only black man at first rejected the call then later after careful study by a black man all of a suddenly did not understand it. But on the otherhand a lady with a third grade education could understand it?
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And some will refuse to bring the distinct Advent Message to the World at large because the General Conference has not managed to bring every church on earth in line with their understanding of church discipline. They wonder why the General Conference does not show their mandate and force the Church in China to abide by every detail outlined by a majority vote at a General Conference in session and thereby introducing persecution.
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Christian said.
Some will use the fact how come the only black man at first rejected the call then later after careful study by a black man all of a suddenly did not understand it.
You have your history wrong. William Foy accepted the call and spent 3 months preaching the message. Hazen Foss rejected. William Foy accepted. Yes, later he asked God to take that ministry away from him and God.
William Foy and Hazen Foss
William E. Foy, a member of the Freewill Baptist Church, who was preparing for the ministry, was given two visions in Boston in 1842—one on January 18 and the other on February 4. In the first of these revelations, Foy viewed the glorious reward of the faithful and the punishment of sinners. Not being instructed to relate to others what was shown him, he told no one of his vision; but he had no peace of mind. In the second revelation he witnessed the multitudes of earth arraigned before heaven's bar of judgment; a “mighty angel” with silver trumpet in hand about to descend to earth by “three steps;” the books of record in heaven; the coming of Christ and the reward of the faithful. He was bidden, “Thou must reveal those things which thou hast seen, and also warn thy fellow creatures to flee from the wrath to come.”—The Christian Experience of Wm. E. Foy, Together With the Two Visions He Received (1845).
Two days after this revelation he was requested by the pastor of the Bloomfield Street church in Boston to relate the visions.
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Although he was a fluent speaker, he reluctantly complied, fearing that the general prejudice against visions, and the fact that he was a mulatto, would make his work difficult. The “large congregation assembled” was spellbound, and with this initial encouragement, Foy traveled three months, delivering his message to “crowded houses.” Then to secure means to support his family, he left public work for a time, but, finding “no rest day nor night,” he took it up again. Ellen Harmon, when but a girl, heard him speak at Beethoven Hall in Portland, Maine. (Interview of D. E. Robinson with Mrs. E. G. White, 1912. White Publications, D.F. 231.)
Near the time of the expectation in 1844, according to J. N. Loughborough, Foy was given a third vision in which were presented three platforms, which he could not understand in the light of his belief in the imminent coming of Christ, and he ceased public work. (The Great Second Advent Movement, pages 146, 147.)
NOTE: None of the above references came from an Africian-American. Your history is wrong here.
Yes, Delbert Baker is an African-American. I do not understand why you thought necessary to say: ". . after careful study by a black man . . ." Such does not add anything of value. Rather it seems that you are making an adverst comment about Dr. Baker.
In any case, the major facts in Dr. Baker's book were discovered and known well before he wrote his book.
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Christian said.
Some will use the fact how come the only black man at first rejected the call then later after careful study by a black man all of a suddenly did not understand it.
You have your history wrong. William Foy accepted the call and spent 3 months preaching the message. Hazen Foss rejected. William Foy accepted. Yes, later he asked God to take that ministry away from him and God.
William Foy and Hazen Foss
No my history is not wrong, I was simply stating a fact that was repeated many times to me as a young boy. The reason Baker wrote what he wrote was to clear up the controversy surrounding William Foy. And my statement about a black man did not detract from anything it was a statement meant to stress the obvious changing stance of the church based on the changing of times.
William E. Foy, a member of the Freewill Baptist Church, who was preparing for the ministry, was given two visions in Boston in 1842—one on January 18 and the other on February 4. In the first of these revelations, Foy viewed the glorious reward of the faithful and the punishment of sinners. Not being instructed to relate to others what was shown him, he told no one of his vision; but he had no peace of mind. In the second revelation he witnessed the multitudes of earth arraigned before heaven's bar of judgment; a “mighty angel” with silver trumpet in hand about to descend to earth by “three steps;” the books of record in heaven; the coming of Christ and the reward of the faithful. He was bidden, “Thou must reveal those things which thou hast seen, and also warn thy fellow creatures to flee from the wrath to come.”—The Christian Experience of Wm. E. Foy, Together With the Two Visions He Received (1845).
Two days after this revelation he was requested by the pastor of the Bloomfield Street church in Boston to relate the visions.
[486]
Although he was a fluent speaker, he reluctantly complied, fearing that the general prejudice against visions, and the fact that he was a mulatto, would make his work difficult. The “large congregation assembled” was spellbound, and with this initial encouragement, Foy traveled three months, delivering his message to “crowded houses.” Then to secure means to support his family, he left public work for a time, but, finding “no rest day nor night,” he took it up again. Ellen Harmon, when but a girl, heard him speak at Beethoven Hall in Portland, Maine. (Interview of D. E. Robinson with Mrs. E. G. White, 1912. White Publications, D.F. 231.)
Near the time of the expectation in 1844, according to J. N. Loughborough, Foy was given a third vision in which were presented three platforms, which he could not understand in the light of his belief in the imminent coming of Christ, and he ceased public work. (The Great Second Advent Movement, pages 146, 147.)
NOTE: None of the above references came from an Africian-American. Your history is wrong here.
Yes, Delbert Baker is an African-American. I do not understand why you thought necessary to say: ". . after careful study by a black man . . ." Such does not add anything of value. Rather it seems that you are making an adverst comment about Dr. Baker.
In any case, the major facts in Dr. Baker's book were discovered and known well before he wrote his book.
We have become a church of conflicting messages tossed to and fro by the changing times, with only one constance and that being tithe and the Sabbath. Now the topic and issue of the day is women ordinance, my belief being that it is being driven by the woman equality movement, with gays being next. Our church still practices prejudice in the separation of Churches and Conferences which is totally ridiculous. And we use Ellen White to defend the separation, when she was dealing with the condition in Her day. Why is women ordination even a issue now? What is the driving movement that is propelling it forward? Some will say it is because we are trying to get the message out and women ordination will aid in that. We could classify it as something else and still pay them but that is not the goal (I believe for many) as the reason for this movement. I personally have no problem with women ordination or anything of that nature. I realize men nor women are doing what we are suppose to do by in large (this statement is not meant for everyone but the vast majority)[b I mean when are we going to wake up and stop playing games with the message. These topics which I am an active participant are bogus since we aren't even keeping the Sabbath by in large or following the Health Message even in our (Adventist Hospitals) and I could go on and on showing the blatant disregard for council from the Bible and Spirit of Prophecy. So when people come in the church now in the end they are more confused than ever and not because they haven't been exposed to the truth but rather because of the dualism in the church. So every topic in the church becomes suspect because we won't even do what we are suppose to corporatly. Our church went from serving vegetarian food (for pot lucks) which was not good to serving meat and having the deacons carry a gun. And the churches are becoming more prejudice as time goes by instead of more inclusive.
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Christian, since you please the great majority of fallen Christianity with your view on female pastors, you should tell them that, and you may get a special discount with them when they come and persecute you for keeping the Sabbath. There is a certain advantage in following the majority, even going in the wrong direction.
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Christian, you have raised a fundamental question: What is the purpose of church? What should be the standards by which we allow people to remain in the church?
You sound to me like you focus you attention on the sins of the majority which may be accurate. You sound like you would prefer to expel 90% of the members. There are others who would like to do that. The problem is that some of those would probably see sin in your life to such an extent that they wold like to expel you
In a corrupt age/society, to what extent should the church be a place where those who want to develop their Christian lives can come for spiritual nurture, or should the church be a place were those who have reached a specific level of Christian life and practice can pass the test and be admitted?
The question is: Do you and I separate the weeds from the wheat, or does Christ and to what extent?
You sound to me like that is something that you have already done in your mind.
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Christian, you have raised a fundamental question: What is the purpose of church? What should be the standards by which we allow people to remain in the church?
You sound to me like you focus you attention on the sins of the majority which may be accurate. You sound like you would prefer to expel 90% of the members. There are others who would like to do that. The problem is that some of those would probably see sin in your life to such an extent that they wold like to expel you
In a corrupt age/society, to what extent should the church be a place where those who want to develop their Christian lives can come for spiritual nurture, or should the church be a place were those who have reached a specific level of Christian life and practice can pass the test and be admitted?
The question is: Do you and I separate the weeds from the wheat, or does Christ and to what extent?
You sound to me like that is something that you have already done in your mind.
Interesting that you would say "you sound like you would prefer to expel 90% of the members" so you feel the sinning is that high? I was only thinking in the area of 75%. That was really funny since I did not state anything of the sort. You think the church is the place for the weeds to grow don't you? The presence of the tare is not an act of God but rather Satan. The identity of the tare is that they appear sincere like they are wheat when in fact they are there to do Satan's bidding. I at no time suggested that it is my job to uproot anyone, however, I am under no obligation to except sin even if I am a sinner. And the Bible says to him that knoweth to do good and does not to him it is sin. (The Churches purpose is to preach the truth and let the Holy Spirit read the Heart and soul of an individual).
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O.K. I will accept your 75%. I stated that you "sounded to me like" because that is how you came across to me and I did not know what you actually meant.
In my thinking, both you and I are wheat that has been corrupted by a weed. We are wheat because we are on a spiritual journey that is dedicated to following Christ. But, we have both been corrupted by a weed. Over time, it will have to be Christ (HS) who removes that weedy influence from us. You sound like you would like to remove from our fellowship those who do not meet you level of expectation for removal of the weedy influence. Well, it just may be that there are those here who do not believe that either you or I meet their level of expectation of the removal of the weedy influence. Perhaps, in their thinking, both of us should be expelled from SDA Fellowship?
I attend a SDA Chruch that is eclectic. It welcomes all--people who are not SDA, those who are not Crhistian, SDAs with differing beliefs. We have an elderly man who has attended for three years. He openly says that he attends because God requires him to attend. He ocasionally works on the Sabbath. He drinks an alcoholic beverage. He has beliefs that are not SDA. He challenges us and we challenge him.
Those of us who have observed him for the three years that he has attended are united in our belief that he has grown spiritually overa tthe past three years! He is growing spiritually. Let us say that the time comes when he will decide that God is calling him to formally unite with the SDA Chruch and our congregation. If that time comes he probably will not be perfect and in accord with all of your standards and beliefs. Should we deny him simply becasue he is not as mature a Christinan as you think he should be? Well, there ae likely those here who beleive that you and I are not as mature a Christian as their standards require.
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O.K. I will accept your 75%. I stated that you "sounded to me like" because that is how you came across to me and I did not know what you actually meant.
In my thinking, both you and I are wheat that has been corrupted by a weed. We are wheat because we are on a spiritual journey that is dedicated to following Christ. But, we have both been corrupted by a weed. Over time, it will have to be Christ (HS) who removes that weedy influence from us. You sound like you would like to remove from our fellowship those who do not meet you level of expectation for removal of the weedy influence. Well, it just may be that there are those here who do not believe that either you or I meet their level of expectation of the removal of the weedy influence. Perhaps, in their thinking, both of us should be expelled from SDA Fellowship?
I attend a SDA Chruch that is eclectic. It welcomes all--people who are not SDA, those who are not Crhistian, SDAs with differing beliefs. We have an elderly man who has attended for three years. He openly says that he attends because God requires him to attend. He ocasionally works on the Sabbath. He drinks an alcoholic beverage. He has beliefs that are not SDA. He challenges us and we challenge him.
Those of us who have observed him for the three years that he has attended are united in our belief that he has grown spiritually overa tthe past three years! He is growing spiritually. Let us say that the time comes when he will decide that God is calling him to formally unite with the SDA Chruch and our congregation. If that time comes he probably will not be perfect and in accord with all of your standards and beliefs. Should we deny him simply becasue he is not as mature a Christinan as you think he should be? Well, there ae likely those here who beleive that you and I are not as mature a Christian as their standards require.
I have never said anything about removing anyone from the Church.--- I would like to say hello, I enjoy the exchanges we are having---. What my great concern has always been is when the church changes its doctrine to a lie. Individually, I believe we are all like the Prodigal son and need that kind of experience. Satan, in the last days has tried not so much to destroy the Prodigal son but diabolically he is now trying to destroy the Father's House. My contention is that he is trying to make the place the Prodigal return to like the pig pen he so longed to leave when he came to himself. I hope you can understand what I am trying to say. Individually, we all are sinners saved by Grace, myself included, however we must never be allowed to think the lie is a truth because then we have in essence created the unpardonable sin. And for Gods people who have known the truth to except a lie as the truth is most damming. Men and Women were indeed created equal, but with different rolls and Satan knows this. It has been his ultimate goal to distort the image of God. We know from Ellen G. White that if for any other reason the flood came it was for the fact that man had distorted the image of God. Women were made to carry the babies, have children and men were design to be the head of their families, and the church is a larger scale of that very thing. There is no lesser roll for women than for men but both hold extremely important rolls that God out of his wisdom, we living in a sinful world design for our own good.
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A female elder in the New Testament?
http://www.sbl-site.org/publications/article.aspx?articleId=830
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A female elder in the New Testament?
http://www.sbl-site.org/publications/article.aspx?articleId=830
And so should we conclude that Phoebe ruled over Paul? Is that what we are supposed to conclude from that article?
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A female elder in the New Testament?
http://www.sbl-site.org/publications/article.aspx?articleId=830
And so should we conclude that Phoebe ruled over Paul? Is that what we are supposed to conclude from that article?
Who gave you the idea that a pastor/elder has to rule over someone? If that is you idea I begin to understand your reluctance to accept the ordination of females
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A female elder in the New Testament?
http://www.sbl-site.org/publications/article.aspx?articleId=830
And so should we conclude that Phoebe ruled over Paul? Is that what we are supposed to conclude from that article?
Who gave you the idea that a pastor/elder has to rule over someone? If that is you idea I begin to understand your reluctance to accept the ordination of females
I'm just taking what the article says, and following it to its logical conclusion. Nothing more, nothing less.
Note in the article the section "Phoebe: A Prostatis", and beyond. Note that the article argues that the word should mean "ruler" rather than "helper." Then note that in Rom. 16:2, Paul says that Phoebe has been a helper "of many, and of myself also."
Thus, if the word in question really does mean "ruler" or "leader" as the article suggests, then we must conclude that Phoebe was a ruler or leader of Paul.
I would suggest that before we borrow the arguments of others to support our positions, that we think through what they are saying to make sure there aren't any holes in their logic, such as this article's idea apparent forcing us to conclude that Phoebe was over Paul.
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A female elder in the New Testament?
http://www.sbl-site.org/publications/article.aspx?articleId=830
And so should we conclude that Phoebe ruled over Paul? Is that what we are supposed to conclude from that article?
Who gave you the idea that a pastor/elder has to rule over someone? If that is you idea I begin to understand your reluctance to accept the ordination of females
I'm just taking what the article says, and following it to its logical conclusion. Nothing more, nothing less.
Note in the article the section "Phoebe: A Prostatis", and beyond. Note that the article argues that the word should mean "ruler" rather than "helper." Then note that in Rom. 16:2, Paul says that Phoebe has been a helper "of many, and of myself also."
Thus, if the word in question really does mean "ruler" or "leader" as the article suggests, then we must conclude that Phoebe was a ruler or leader of Paul.
I would suggest that before we borrow the arguments of others to support our positions, that we think through what they are saying to make sure there aren't any holes in their logic, such as this article's idea apparent forcing us to conclude that Phoebe was over Paul.
Why do yo get stuck on one word before you understand the rest? If you happen to meet the emperor of Japan on your way somewhere, does that mean he becomes a ruler over you immediately?
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Johann,
If helper "of many, and of myself also" does not mean that Phoebe was a ruler over Paul, then it doesn't mean that Phoebe was a ruler over "many" either, and if it doesn't mean that, then the word translated "helper" doesn't mean "ruler" or "leader." And if the word doesn't mean that, then the article is wrong, period.
Of course, if I ignore the wording of Rom. 16:2, then I might just buy into the fallacious reasoning of the article. But we're supposed to stick with Scripture, aren't we?
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A person could be a ruler over a segment of a congregation (In the SDA Chruch, Elders are often given a group of peopole over which to exercise spiritual leadership.). the local congregation as a whole, a group of congregations, a geographic area and/or the denomination as a whole.
I will suggest that your point is invalid, Bob.
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If you feel my point is invalid, Gregory, then tell us in what manner you believe that Phoebe was a ruler over Paul.
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Following your argument, Bob, then the president of the North American Division and the Adventist Biblical Institute should be your rulers, and it is your duty to follow their understanding and definition of the mandates given them by the general assembly.
Since when was that responsibility handed over to you? Don´t you carry any responsibility in how you deal with your leaders as defined here:
The Bible teaches us to beware of lightly bringing accusation against those whom God has called to act as His ambassadors. “Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses.” 1 Timothy 5:19. He who has placed upon men the responsibility of leaders and teachers of His people will hold the people accountable for the manner in which they treat His servants. The judgment visited upon Miriam should be a rebuke to all who yield to jealousy and murmur against those upon whom God lays the burden of His work. {EP 269.3}
Aaron and Miriam, just like you, felt that God had given them a responsibility, and they found fault with Moses for not following their understanding of the divine instructions given. You read the results in Scripture. There is a grave responsibility.
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If you feel my point is invalid, Gregory, then tell us in what manner you believe that Phoebe was a ruler over Paul.
[Shaking my head.] I am at a complete loss to respond to the above. Either I have misunderstood you or you have misunderstood me. As a result, I am at a loss to respond. I did not comment in any manner as to whether or not Phoebe ruled over Paul.
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If you feel my point is invalid, Gregory, then tell us in what manner you believe that Phoebe was a ruler over Paul.
[Shaking my head.] I am at a complete loss to respond to the above. Either I have misunderstood you or you have misunderstood me. As a result, I am at a loss to respond. I did not comment in any manner as to whether or not Phoebe ruled over Paul.
Then I would say that you misunderstood my point. Johann cited an article which makes claims about Phoebe in Rom. 16:2:
A female elder in the New Testament?
http://www.sbl-site.org/publications/article.aspx?articleId=830
Look at that article from "Phoebe: A Prostatis" onward. It makes the case that the Greek word for "helper" or "succourer" really means "ruler" or "leader."
My point is that in the text in question, Rom. 16:2, Paul flat out states that Phoebe has been a helper or succourer of many, including of himself. Therefore, if the Greek word really means "ruler" or "leader" instead of "helper" or "succourer," then Paul must have been acknowledging that Phoebe was his ruler or leader. But the article doesn't address this problematic conclusion, a conclusion which seems to me to exclude the proposed interpretation from consideration.
Your response above said that my point was invalid, and thus I replied in the way that I did.
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Following your argument, Bob, then the president of the North American Division and the Adventist Biblical Institute should be your rulers, and it is your duty to follow their understanding and definition of the mandates given them by the general assembly.
Don't you mean, following the argument of the article you cited? I'm not the one arguing that "helper" really means "ruler" or "leader." The article you cited did that, not me.
Since when was that responsibility handed over to you? Don´t you carry any responsibility in how you deal with your leaders as defined here:
The Bible teaches us to beware of lightly bringing accusation against those whom God has called to act as His ambassadors. “Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses.” 1 Timothy 5:19. He who has placed upon men the responsibility of leaders and teachers of His people will hold the people accountable for the manner in which they treat His servants. The judgment visited upon Miriam should be a rebuke to all who yield to jealousy and murmur against those upon whom God lays the burden of His work. {EP 269.3}
Aaron and Miriam, just like you, felt that God had given them a responsibility, and they found fault with Moses for not following their understanding of the divine instructions given. You read the results in Scripture. There is a grave responsibility.
From what has been quoted here, Dan Jackson publicly stated that he wasn't going to do his job. What accusation are you speaking of? Are you saying that I accused him of saying what he publicly said?
What accusation are you saying that I said against someone at BRI? I don't recall making any accusations.
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Yesterday it was a great blessing to me as well as to others in church to listen to an American preacher speaking in English. His sermon led me into new vistas in understanding the Great Controversy theme, and how our present dialog fits into this Great Controversy.
It seems clear that this all began with the entrance of sin into our universe. And therefore I'd like to ask you to explain how it all began. What argument did Lucifer use to persuade at least one third of the angels who had never departed from God - to follow Lucifer and become his demons?
Another question is: What did the same devil promise Eve in the Garden?
What happened then to both Eve and Adam?
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What argument did Lucifer use to persuade at least one third of the angels who had never departed from God - to follow Lucifer and become his demons?
One thing he did was take the "plainest statements of Jehovah," and shroud them in mystery, casting doubt upon them (PP 41; GC 496).
Over at AToday a blogger was arguing for creation over long ages, and to back that up against Ellen White's counsel he gave several examples of the "fallibility" of the Bible writers. One of those examples was that Paul was wrong in saying that Adam being created first placed man in leadership roles instead of women, since monkeys were made before Adam was.
The reasoning is fallacious, but it illustrates how such simple and plain pronouncements as are found in Gen. 3 and 1 Tim. 2:13 are today being cast in doubt and shrouded in mystery, just like what happened in heaven when the great controversy began.
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American Administrators Visit Ordained Female Pastors in China
See
http://www.atoday.org/article/1214/news/june-headlines/american-denominational-administrators-visit-women-serving-as-ordained-ministers-in-the-adventist-church-in-china
Johann,
Are you okay with the Communist Party, which controls the government and which controls the Three Self Patriotic Movement and its sister organization the China Christian Council, being the ones ordaining both male and female SDA pastors in
our church?
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SDA Minister:
The status of the SDA Church in China is complex. In many ways, the government in China is not centralized and local officials set the operational rules with some indenpendence. From this standpoint, the status of the SDA Church in China varries from place to place and just about any statement made about the SDA Church in CHina is true in some places annd not true in other palces. However:
1) In some places the SDA Church is part of the Three-self Movement.
2) In some locations, the SDA Church has been allowed to operate independently of the Three-self movement. In some of these independent locations the SDA church is doing very well and with large memberships.
3) Some SDA leaders are Communist party members and some are not.
4) The Communist Party does not Ordain anyone. The Communist Part is not a religious organization.
5) SDA leaders are chosen independently of government ilnfluence. What the government does not allow is for the SDA leaders in the United States to dictate who can and cannot be chosen to be SDA leaders. In part the government is letting the SDA Chruch in China operate with some freedom due to the fact that the leadership in the U.S. does not control the SDA Church in China.
6) Yes, the SDA Church in China does not operate with the freedoms that the SDA Church has in the U. S. But, we can be thankful for the freedoms that it has.
6) yeS, there are at least two (2) seperate SDA organizations (Some would say 3 or 4.) in China which has differing levels of freedom to opearate. China is the only place in the world whre there are more than one SDA group that is recognized by the General Conference.
If you knew your history, you would know that during the Cold War, the Communist governments in at least one country of the Soviet Union exercised great control over the SDA Chrucn in that country, even more than what is the case in China. There were real problems in that country in the Soviet Union. We should be thankful for the freedomss that the SDA Chruch does have in China, even if we might wish for more. God is leading in China.
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American Administrators Visit Ordained Female Pastors in China
See
http://www.atoday.org/article/1214/news/june-headlines/american-denominational-administrators-visit-women-serving-as-ordained-ministers-in-the-adventist-church-in-china
Johann,
Are you okay with the Communist Party, which controls the government and which controls the Three Self Patriotic Movement and its sister organization the China Christian Council, being the ones ordaining both male and female SDA pastors in
our church?
You are welcome to take that discussion up with those people who visited China and wrote this report. I did not write any of this. It was a news item from another source.
I was not there. But I was at the General Conference Session at Utrecht, and that is another unpleasant story.
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SDA Minister:
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If you knew your history, you would know that during the Cold War, the Communist governments in at least one country of the Soviet Union exercised great control over the SDA Chrucn in that country, even more than what is the case in China. There were real problems in that country in the Soviet Union. We should be thankful for the freedomss that the SDA Chruch does have in China, even if we might wish for more. God is leading in China.
Another General Conference Session I had the privilege of attending was in Vienna, Austria, 1975. This was the first session ever held outside of the United States, and at that time Austria was a neutral country making it possible for delegates from the communist countries to get permission from their own governments to attend.
My wife served as a hostess and interpreter at the entrance because she could speak the languages of several delegates, and I happened to be with her when a senior female delegate from Russia arrived. She told me how difficult the situation was because she had to get the permission of her government to travel, and some of the "faithful" church members therefore accused her of unfaithfulness because they basically believed that it was a sin to have anything to do with the atheistic government.
With tears in her eyes she told us that it was her earnest desire to meet fellow believers in the Great Advent Hope from other parts of the world which made her write an application for a travel permit, even if it displeased some of her fellow believers in Russia.
I have also preached in Poland while it was still under communism. There I met fellow believers both from Ukraine and Czechoslovakia who had traveled under difficult circumstances to meet us. It was interesting to discover the faithfulness of Adventists who lived under communism in those days, but it has often to been strange to hear the verdicts of "specialists" who were never there, and yet give explicit verdicts of how people should have dealt with the situation.
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American Administrators Visit Ordained Female Pastors in China
See
http://www.atoday.org/article/1214/news/june-headlines/american-denominational-administrators-visit-women-serving-as-ordained-ministers-in-the-adventist-church-in-china
Johann,
Are you okay with the Communist Party, which controls the government and which controls the Three Self Patriotic Movement and its sister organization the China Christian Council, being the ones ordaining both male and female SDA pastors in
our church?
You are welcome to take that discussion up with those people who visited China and wrote this report. I did not write any of this. It was a news item from another source.
I was not there. But I was at the General Conference Session at Utrecht, and that is another unpleasant story.
Johann,
I understand. But just for that sake of discussion, would you be okay with some other person or organization, which is not SDA, ordaining ministers within the SDA church?
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American Administrators Visit Ordained Female Pastors in China
See
http://www.atoday.org/article/1214/news/june-headlines/american-denominational-administrators-visit-women-serving-as-ordained-ministers-in-the-adventist-church-in-china
Johann,
Are you okay with the Communist Party, which controls the government and which controls the Three Self Patriotic Movement and its sister organization the China Christian Council, being the ones ordaining both male and female SDA pastors in
our church?
You are welcome to take that discussion up with those people who visited China and wrote this report. I did not write any of this. It was a news item from another source.
I was not there. But I was at the General Conference Session at Utrecht, and that is another unpleasant story.
Johann,
I understand. But just for that sake of discussion, would you be okay with some other person or organization, which is not SDA, ordaining ministers within the SDA church?
I was not there, but did you read the whole report? I understood that the church officer from America who wrote the report had spoken to female ordained Adventist pastor(s) who had refused the ordination from another church, but only accepted an ordination by an Adventist leader. I read several reports from that visit. Perhaps that was in another report?
-
American Administrators Visit Ordained Female Pastors in China
See
http://www.atoday.org/article/1214/news/june-headlines/american-denominational-administrators-visit-women-serving-as-ordained-ministers-in-the-adventist-church-in-china
Johann,
Are you okay with the Communist Party, which controls the government and which controls the Three Self Patriotic Movement and its sister organization the China Christian Council, being the ones ordaining both male and female SDA pastors in
our church?
You are welcome to take that discussion up with those people who visited China and wrote this report. I did not write any of this. It was a news item from another source.
I was not there. But I was at the General Conference Session at Utrecht, and that is another unpleasant story.
Johann,
I understand. But just for that sake of discussion, would you be okay with some other person or organization, which is not SDA, ordaining ministers within the SDA church?
I was not there, but did you read the whole report? I understood that the church officer from America who wrote the report had spoken to female ordained Adventist pastor(s) who had refused the ordination from another church, but only accepted an ordination by an Adventist leader. I read several reports from that visit. Perhaps that was in another report?
Johann,
I'm not asking what the report said or whether or not you were there. I'm simply asking you your opinion about what you believe.
Would you be okay with some other person or organization, which is not SDA, ordaining ministers within the SDA church?
Thanks!
-
American Administrators Visit Ordained Female Pastors in China
See
http://www.atoday.org/article/1214/news/june-headlines/american-denominational-administrators-visit-women-serving-as-ordained-ministers-in-the-adventist-church-in-china
Johann,
Are you okay with the Communist Party, which controls the government and which controls the Three Self Patriotic Movement and its sister organization the China Christian Council, being the ones ordaining both male and female SDA pastors in
our church?
You are welcome to take that discussion up with those people who visited China and wrote this report. I did not write any of this. It was a news item from another source.
I was not there. But I was at the General Conference Session at Utrecht, and that is another unpleasant story.
Johann,
I understand. But just for that sake of discussion, would you be okay with some other person or organization, which is not SDA, ordaining ministers within the SDA church?
I was not there, but did you read the whole report? I understood that the church officer from America who wrote the report had spoken to female ordained Adventist pastor(s) who had refused the ordination from another church, but only accepted an ordination by an Adventist leader. I read several reports from that visit. Perhaps that was in another report?
Johann,
I'm not asking what the report said or whether or not you were there. I'm simply asking you your opinion about what you believe.
Would you be okay with some other person or organization, which is not SDA, ordaining ministers within the SDA church?
Thanks!
That answer seemed too obvious for me to state it. Just like most of the pastors in China, I would not accept it for myself. I do not know what the local conditions are in China, but I understood the governments in some parts of Communist Eastern Europe demanded some kind of spies or police presence in the church, something the church could not refuse.I am well satisfied the Lord never placed me in that situation where I have to face Communist dictators.
Are you praying the Lord will send you there so you can make all the important decisions for them?
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Some time after we visited communist Poland we invited a Polish Adventist youth choir to Denmark, and they all got permission to travel. But we discovered there was one more person along than the original membership of the choir.
At one point when I managed to be alone with the choir director for a while, he whispered to me that it seemed to them like the communist government had sent an agent along to keep a chck on them.
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A full, public, discussion of governmental agents who may have infiltrated tlhe SDA Church should probably not be a matter for public discussion. The short answer is: Yes, it has happened. But, remember, God is in charge. God can nulify any adverse effect of such agents, if God choses to do so. Sometimes it has probably been done openly and with the knowledge of all.
E.G. I participated in the invasion of the island of Grenada. The SDA Church on the island had a very large elementary school--400 students, as I recall. The Marxist government had required that the school place on their teaching faculty an agent of the government. The response of the Adventists on the island was to go to the knees and ask God to nulify any adverse effect that the governmental agent might have. The result ws that the SDA leadership believed that God had worked to see to it that the governmenetal agent did not have an adverse effect. NOTE: While I was on the island, I met with SDA leadership and obtained this informatin in personal conversations with SDA leadership.
Yes, I am aware of a situation in Europe where the SDA Church may have been infiltrated by a Communist agent and things may not have gone perfectly.
Yet, I am also aware of another situation where it is clear that God used a Communist agent to bring about what God wanted to happen which was a blessing to the SDA Chruch in that country.
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We also worked in West Africa many years ago. In most of the countries there we were operating an extensive school system with many primary schools, some secondary schools and then some colleges. It was impossble to operate these schools without some government control.
When Kwame Nkruma became dictator in Ghana he suddenly required that in order to keep our schools it was a must that one of his agents could come and teach the students his political doctrines. The American Baptist Missionaries decided to close their schools rather than comply. Our people had an earnest season of prayer, and then they decided that all pupils and students wold have to take this instruction regardless if it was done at our schools or elsewhere. By complying they would still be able to teach the students other subjects in a Christian setting the rest of the week.
So the Adventist mission retained all of their schools even it they had to allow a political teacher a class period each week. Within a few years dictator Nkruma was ousted while he went on a visit to another country. Then all of our schools were operating while the American Bapist missionaries did not have a single school and no students they could work for. Starting new schools from scratch at that time seemed impossible.
It seemed like the Lord blessed our missionary work greatly in spite of the fact that it was necessary to comply with unreasonable official directives for a while.
Where should our own children and youth have gone to school if we had closed ours? They would have had to go to schools with no Adventist influence.
So we could also ask: Where should our people worship and receive spiritual nourishment in such countries if we close our churches rather than suffer some government inspection or infiltration?
Those are difficult questions. Some times people who are far away and do not have any responsibility think they have all the answers.
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American Administrators Visit Ordained Female Pastors in China
See
http://www.atoday.org/article/1214/news/june-headlines/american-denominational-administrators-visit-women-serving-as-ordained-ministers-in-the-adventist-church-in-china
Johann,
Are you okay with the Communist Party, which controls the government and which controls the Three Self Patriotic Movement and its sister organization the China Christian Council, being the ones ordaining both male and female SDA pastors in
our church?
You are welcome to take that discussion up with those people who visited China and wrote this report. I did not write any of this. It was a news item from another source.
I was not there. But I was at the General Conference Session at Utrecht, and that is another unpleasant story.
Johann,
I understand. But just for that sake of discussion, would you be okay with some other person or organization, which is not SDA, ordaining ministers within the SDA church?
I was not there, but did you read the whole report? I understood that the church officer from America who wrote the report had spoken to female ordained Adventist pastor(s) who had refused the ordination from another church, but only accepted an ordination by an Adventist leader. I read several reports from that visit. Perhaps that was in another report?
Johann,
I'm not asking what the report said or whether or not you were there. I'm simply asking you your opinion about what you believe.
Would you be okay with some other person or organization, which is not SDA, ordaining ministers within the SDA church?
Thanks!
That answer seemed too obvious for me to state it. Just like most of the pastors in China, I would not accept it for myself. I do not know what the local conditions are in China, but I understood the governments in some parts of Communist Eastern Europe demanded some kind of spies or police presence in the church, something the church could not refuse.I am well satisfied the Lord never placed me in that situation where I have to face Communist dictators.
Are you praying the Lord will send you there so you can make all the important decisions for them?
Johann,
No, I'm not praying that the Lord will send me there----again. I've already spent years of my life in China as a General Conference missionary! Add to that the time I've worked for our church in various countries of the ex-Soviet Bloc and I can say I've got a pretty good grasp of what's going on.
You said that the answer seemed to obvious to state, and yet you might be surprised to learn that many in our church are rather comfortable with such a thought.
http://www.adventistworld.org/article/598/resources/english/issue-2009-1008/finding-faith-in-china
I completely understand Gregory's ignorance to the fact of my deep familiarity with China. This is probably why he attempted to elucidate me like he did.
One point of his is, unfortunately, false
"4) The Communist Party does not Ordain anyone. The Communist Part is not a religious organization."
In fact, the Communist Party does ordain pastors within the SDA church. I wouldn't dare you trust my word for it but rather one of your own (i.e. pro-women's ordination). President Jan Paulsen in the above article clearly states (with my emphasis)
"...and the fact is we don’t have true control over who is ordained. Technically, the CCC [the state-regulated China Christian Council] has the final say, but the decision is usually made in consultation with the local Adventist congregation."
A note of clarification. The CCC is not just "state-regulated". It is in itself an organ of the state. (Would a person say that the FBI is "state-regulated"?) It is, simply put, an intelligence directive which, along with its sister organization the Three Self Patriotic Movement, which the Communist Party uses to mold, shape, and control the expression of Christianity by their own terms in order to further the objectives of the Communist State. It is, in effect, a "perfect" melding of church and state.
Now we have these kinds of pastors (male and female), ordained by the state, going around and ordaining others yet calling it ordination by "Adventists." Indeed, in effect, the article you shared refers to such kind of organization as "apostolic". What a crock!
And this is the kind of propaganda that we deal with back here in the US. Most, like you and Gregory, don't know what you don't know. When a conference president chairs a church business meeting and shows videos of the church in China and how great and grand these women pastors are and then calls for an immediate vote on having women elders well, it's just too bad that all the info couldn't have been heard so that people could make an informed choice. You know, truth can lose nothing by close investigation.
If people want to have such an arrangement (outside organizations ordaining pastors within our church) then let them. But forgive me if I do protest.
This is not to say that great things aren't happening in China. But is this not perhaps similar to the Dark Ages and the age of persecution? In the persecuted centuries after Christ, Christians were finally given freedom to worship. Hooray! But then, a force came in under the guise of calling itself "Christian" and started to clamp down rather handily on those true believers. Is the same thing happening in China?
SDAminister
p.s. Gregory wrote: "If you knew your history, you would know that during the Cold War, the Communist governments in at least one country of the Soviet Union exercised great control over the SDA Chrucn in that country, even more than what is the case in China. "
So true, and yet if you also knew your history, you'd know that Communist governments exercised great control over the SDA church in many countries in the decades that preceded the Cold War.
p.p.s. Johann, you mentioned that back in '75 you met a female delegate from Russia. I'm curious as to which SDA church she belonged. That is, did she belong to the True and Free SDA church or just the regular SDA church?
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SDA Minister:
1) I clearly do not know of your denominational background and your experience in China. You write under a pen-name, which is your right and I do not object to you doing so. As a result, none of us really know much about you and your background. As a matter of fact, there are a number of us here who have suspected you were a certain person, who has no background in China and has never been employed by the General Conference. Your statement tells me that everyone who so thought was wrong.
2) You state: In fact, the Communist Party does ordain pastors within the SDA church. I wouldn't dare you trust my word for it but rather one of your own (i.e. pro-women's ordination). President Jan Paulsen in the above article clearly states (with my emphasis)
"...and the fact is we don’t have true control over who is ordained. Technically, the CCC [the state-regulated China Christian Council] has the final say, but the decision is usually made in consultation with the local Adventist congregation."
I have never denied that is some cases an agency of the Chinese government in China approves those who become ordained SDA Clergy.
There is a major difference between saying that someone is approved by the government and in saying that the government itself ordains that person. Your statement, to which I objected, was to the effect that the Chinese government ordains SDA Clergy. I do not believe that for one minute. I welcome your correction. If you tell me that this Chinese government has had public (or private) ceremonies in which candidates whom they picked, were ordained by the government, I will have to reevaulate my understanding.
I am well aware that in some countries the SDA Church does not have the freedoms that we have in the U.S. I am aware of a democratic (not Communist) country where the government exercises much control over our college in that country, to include how students are selected to attend. This control extends to great oversight over our Theology program in that country. The result of this control is that the college has a very large number of non-SDA students who attend. The result is that the denomination has learned to live with this control. The denominational leadership in that country believes that they are well able to do what God wants them to do.
Frankly, now that you have told us that you have experience in China I welcome your comments as being insightful and as contributing to my overall knowledge. But, if you meant to say that in some cases, the Chinese government approves who is ordaines, I will suggest that you exercise greater care in how you state such. To approve is not to ordain. That is what I argued agains.
NOTE: It is not unusual for me to find that I did not fully think through a statement that I was making and that I needed to clairfy it later.
So my comment about exercising greater care applies to me as well. :) :)
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p.p.s. Johann, you mentioned that back in '75 you met a female delegate from Russia. I'm curious as to which SDA church she belonged. That is, did she belong to the True and Free SDA church or just the regular SDA church?
Consider this is 37 years ago. I still see the shape of the lady before me - not too slim. Long modest dress. Her knowledge of English seemed fair, but not complete. . I did already state previously that she said some of her fellow believers thought it was wrong of her to have that much to do with the government that she asked for travel documents to go to Vienna. But she had such a deep urge to meet fellow believers from other countries that she lowered herself so much that she applied for travel documents from the atheistic government.
It is possible to do a lot of speculation on the basis of this limited knowledge. But is it essential? Had she broken the high standards of her fellow believers by having this "unholy" relationship with the government? Might they not accept her back into their fellowship on her return to Russia? Did they required repentance and re-baptism for her traveling venture?
To me this indicates that she came from the independent church, but was afraid they might dis-fellowship her as a punishment for her travels. What do you think? Should she have stayed home? Or might she have joined the approved churh for a while just to get the travel documents? I have never thought of her in terms of it being my responsibility to evaluate her standing to see if she was legitimate or not. I just considered her a sister in the the faith, regardless, since she had a desire to join us at the meetings.
PS. As far as I remember she was an official delegate at the GC session.
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I was originally ordained, first as a local elder, and then as a minister in Denmark. With that ordination I have functioned in several other countries without any further ordination.
This included Norway, but here I had to be registered with the government as the pastor of a certain church. That registration with the government made me an official who had the license to marry people with the authority of the government.
Since the government had to authorize my ordination, was I then really ordained by the government? After I moved away from Norway the conference had to notify the government I was no longer a pastor in Norway, and thus the Norwegian government dis-ordained me so I no longer have permission to marry people there, not even if I make a special application. I am fully dis-ordained by the government of Norway.
This did not prevent me from traveling to California after I had moved back to Denmark, and marry a couple there during a short visit. I made an inquiry to find out if my signature on the marriage certificate was legitimate, and was told that as long as I was ordained by a church, the state of California accepted my signature, even if I was not registered there, nor the pastor of a local church.
You see there is a difference in various places. Does the situation in Norway with government controlled ordination make such an ordination questionable to faithful Adventists elsewhere?
How about if an ordained female pastor from China travels to California, would she be able to perform a wedding in California? By government standards? By church standards?
Could anyone forbid that pastor from China baptizing a relative in a lake in California? Should a local church be "punished" if it accepts that person baptized by a Chinese female pasto,r as a member in full and regular standing?
Or an Adventist moving from China to America?
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Government approval of ordination:
I once lived in a State in the United States where all clergy had to be approved by the government in order to perform legally recognized marriages. An interesting situation occured because of this. At the time my Father married again, after the death of my mother, he and his intended came to the city where I lived so I could do the wedding. Well, I was not eligible to be authorized by the government, at that time. So, I made arrangements for another SDA minister to participate and actually sign the government documents that made the marriage legal.
Well, the government checked to see if that SDA minister was legally authorized by the State to celebrate marriage. He was not. He had not applied to the State for permission and he was not legally authorized to perform marriages. He got in trouble. My Father's marriage was made in ""Good faith" so the State recognized it. But they went after the milnister who did it. (No, he did nto go to jail.) Shortly thereafter the Conference sent an urgent message to all of its clergy informing them that they did not have autorization to perform marriages until they had applied to the State and been recognized by the State.
NOTE: When I becam eligible, I applied for permission and wsa granted permission. But, prior to giving me that permission I had to purchase, at my expense, an liability bond that assured that I would comply with the requirements of the State in any marriages that I performed. I had to pay a fee each year to keep that bond in effect.
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Somehow Norwegian and a U.S. state's requirement that a minister register before performing marriages sounds different than the Chinese government deciding who gets ordained and who does not. A refusal by Norway or a U.S. state to allow a minister to marry people does not mean that that minister is no longer ordained.
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none of us really know much about you and your background
How are you able to speak for everyone here, Gregory? I don't recall your taking a survey to check on what you state above as fact.
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Good point. Perhaps the majority know much about SDA Minister. Maybe, even I know more than I thought. :) :)
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Bob, you are correct. In the U.S. marriage has both a civil and a religious function. Government as a right to regulate the civil function.
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Somehow Norwegian and a U.S. state's requirement that a minister register before performing marriages sounds different than the Chinese government deciding who gets ordained and who does not. A refusal by Norway or a U.S. state to allow a minister to marry people does not mean that that minister is no longer ordained.
There are usually two sides on a coin. There are differences and similarities in the situation in USA and China. Which are important and which are not will be a personal decision of the individual.
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Finally we have an official statement by the General Conference of the Seventh-day Adventist Church on the situation in China:
5. Information that a number of women serve as ordained ministers in China has been cited as justification, for unions elsewhere to proceed in a similar manner. It has been alleged that the Northern Asia-Pacific Division recognizes these ordinations and has therefore established a precedent for granting ministerial ordination to women. However, these ordinations were not authorized or conducted according to the policies of the Church. Nor are these ordinations approved or recognized/endorsed by the Northern Asia-Pacific Division. The Seventh-day Adventist Church does not have an officially organized structure in China that is comparable to other areas of the world. Government regulations do not permit outside involvement in church affairs within China. The practice, in China, of ministerial ordination for women is acknowledged as a reality that has arisen in China and is beyond the influence of the world-wide structure of the Seventh-day Adventist Church.
http://www.adventistreview.org/article/5488/archives/issue-2012-1518/18-cn-an-appeal-for-unity
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Note what footnote 3 4 says:
4. The 1995 General Conference Session action denied the request of the North American Division that the Session adopt provisions on ordination as outlined below: "The General Conference vests in each division the right to authorize the ordination of individuals within its territory in harmony with established policies. In addition, where circumstances do not render it inadvisable, a division may authorize the ordination of qualified individuals without regard to gender. In divisions where the division executive committee takes specific actions approving the ordination of women to the gospel ministry, women may be ordained to serve in those divisions.
What do you think it means where it says?
In divisions where the division executive committee takes specific actions approving the ordination of women to the gospel ministry, women may be ordained to serve in those divisions.
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Note what footnote 3 4 says:
4. The 1995 General Conference Session action denied the request of the North American Division that the Session adopt provisions on ordination as outlined below: "The General Conference vests in each division the right to authorize the ordination of individuals within its territory in harmony with established policies. In addition, where circumstances do not render it inadvisable, a division may authorize the ordination of qualified individuals without regard to gender. In divisions where the division executive committee takes specific actions approving the ordination of women to the gospel ministry, women may be ordained to serve in those divisions.
What do you think it means where it says?
In divisions where the division executive committee takes specific actions approving the ordination of women to the gospel ministry, women may be ordained to serve in those divisions.
Under that proposal, first you would have to have the division exec. comm. vote to permit women's ordination, and then unions within that division could authorize the ordination of women by conferences.
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Somehow Norwegian and a U.S. state's requirement that a minister register before performing marriages sounds different than the Chinese government deciding who gets ordained and who does not. A refusal by Norway or a U.S. state to allow a minister to marry people does not mean that that minister is no longer ordained.
I do not know what official reaction will come from our Brethren in Norway to this document from the General Conference, but a source explains to me that it will be difficult for our church in Norway to comply both with the legal requirements of equality, since they already have a number of women in the ministry, and then with the new request from the General Conference. A source indicates that this document makes the situation in Norway somewhat similar to that in China.
As I said, I do not know what the final verdict will be, nor the thinking of the majority. Will some countries be forced to go the same way as China?
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There is a major difference between saying that someone is approved by the government and in saying that the government itself ordains that person. Your statement, to which I objected, was to the effect that the Chinese government ordains SDA Clergy. I do not believe that for one minute. I welcome your correction. If you tell me that this Chinese government has had public (or private) ceremonies in which candidates whom they picked, were ordained by the government, I will have to reevaulate my understanding.
So, if the SDA Church in the United States were to state that the Department of Homeland Security was to have final say over the ordination of all pastors, you wouldn't consider that a problem? Whence cometh authority? They asked Jesus, by whose authority do you do these things?
In China, by whose authority do you they ordain? Answer, the government's!
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Finally we have an official statement by the General Conference of the Seventh-day Adventist Church on the situation in China:
5. ... It has been alleged that the Northern Asia-Pacific Division recognizes these ordinations and has therefore established a precedent for granting ministerial ordination to women. However, these ordinations were not authorized or conducted according to the policies of the Church. Nor are these ordinations approved or recognized/endorsed by the Northern Asia-Pacific Division.
http://www.adventistreview.org/article/5488/archives/issue-2012-1518/18-cn-an-appeal-for-unity
And yet, Jan Paulsen, as President, said that they ARE recognized.
"The fact is we have at least half a dozen women pastors who are ordained as ministers in China. We recognize them as ordained ministers; they are in our records in the statistics in the Yearbook. " http://www.adventistworld.org/article/598/resources/english/issue-2009-1008/finding-faith-in-china
So, who is lying?
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I agree with what SDAMinister has said about the female SDA Clergy being recognized by the General Conference.. She/He is correct. :)
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At least the General Conference recognized the ordination of the female pastors in China by placing their names as ordained pastors in our Yearbook.
If they are not listed there today, by what authority has their ordination been annulled? What had they committed to have their ordination annulled?
It does happen that a minister gets his ordination canceled, and I know that it can be done by the local conference by not re-appointing him as a minister in good and regular standing. Some time after that the same thing happened to the president who "fired" the other one.
The fact is that every minister is up for re-election at the same time as the president and the administration of the conference. If he is not re-elected he is without a job. There has been some discussion if he is still ordained if he is not re-hired or is without a job. I am told that my ordination is still valid even if I am not hired by a conference but I receive a pension.
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It does happen that a minister gets his ordination canceled, and I know that it can be done by the local conference by not re-appointing him as a minister in good and regular standing. Some time after that the same thing happened to the president who "fired" the other one.
An ordination is not cancelled (The word in annuled.) when theperson is not re-appointed. RAther, teh credentials expire and are not renewed, or it is possible for the credentials to be cancelled.
To annnul the ordination requires a seperate action which typically is only done for apostacy and/or sexual misconduct.
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Different terms are used in various areas where English is not the main language.
It is difficult to say that an ordination is universal, because no pastor can go one a freelance spree and work just anywhere without being accepted by the local conference, usually going through the union office. No matter how much ordained the preacher is, it is completely up to the local conference to decide if they will accept him there or not, and there might be entirely different qualification required besides the ordination in different conferences.
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Catholic Bishop resigns in China:
<http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/china-bishop-thaddeus-ma-daqin-exiled-for-defiance/story-fnb64oi6-1226423819572>