Advent Talk
Issues & Concerns Category => 3ABN => Topic started by: Sam on June 01, 2008, 10:09:29 AM
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Fran's comments on 3ABN eBay transactions have been put here into a new thread.
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Wednesday was the first meeting and 3ABN broke a record on the number of people there, over 1000 on the first night! They expect 1800 by Sabbath. I'd say there are a lot of full motels in the area.
Someone tells me that it looked like there was 200 or 250 people there. Do you have any pictures that show 1000 there?
C'mon Bob. Even those here that hate 3abn that watched can tell you different. I just got back late last night from attending the 3abn campmeeting. Am so happy to be able now to answer some of your questions that have been posted the last few days.
1. There was an incredible number of people there from opening night on. Sabbath was close to 2000 people.
2. The check presented to Jim G. on opening night was a total of all sales from the donation department, not just ebay, for the past 9 - 12 months. It was a giant mock check representing the sum of those sales. I visited the sale barn and spoke with Mr. Chance myself. They had an incredible array of items and were extremely busy there.
3. For FRAN. Never ever has there been a claim for 2.4 million or whatever it was she quoted. The quote was more than 1/2 million for approximately 4 years of work. So Fran's claim of how donations have really "went down" was totally false.
4. For FRAN. The gift shop on ebay was never called don_3abn. That was the user ID. Anything sold on ebay before the Chance's took over was sold in the normal auction fashion as there was no store until the Chance's started one. From day one the store was called 3 Angels gift shop and still remains with that name. Again, The claims by Fran that the store name was changed to hide bad feedback is 100% false. Let's go over it again for clarification.
don_3abn was the user ID as there was no store until the Chance's started one. Anything sold before that time was sold in the regular way, not via a store.
5. For FRAN. From Mr. Chance directly: The beginning of a store was a learning experience. Learning the best way to sell, what to sell, and what payment methods to take. They had to learn about paypal and its process. In the beginning they accepted checks, money orders, credit card and then paypal. After a time they found that buyers were taking an excessive amount of time to mail in checks and money orders so eventually, they quit taking those methods of payments. Every month the invoices from ebay and paypal are downloaded, printed out and given to the accounting department, along with copies of the actual sales, buyers name and address and when the item was sold and then shipped. All of these records are turned over to Accounting every month. Credit card payments are not taken by the donations department but directly by the accounting department. Accounting is the number listed on ebay to call for cc payment. Each item that is sold is then entered into the database that has the donor's information and constituent number. The item sold is recorded along with the date it was sold and the price it was sold for. Those records are given to the Accounting dept every month so that the donor can be receipted for the sale of their item.
Rather complicated isn't it? Quite a paper trail. Having read all of the speculation and allegations concerning this (as well as many others) I made a point to ask the questions and received the answers in an open and concise manner. I got these answers straight from the "horses mouth" as they say. How wrong you all have been about this and so many other things.
Several board members were in attendance. When I ask one (without trying to seem like I was just prying) if any of the subjects voted on, during the board meeting, resulted in any kind of tie vote. This board member answered absolutely not and couldn't imagine where I would hear such false information.
It was a fantastic and spirit filled campmeeting. I talked to many many people there who couldn't wait until the fall campmeeting. That includes me!
I talked for a minute with Pastor Gilley. He said Danny had a nice break while building his house but he wanted to get him to spend a lot more time on the air. He said people are "demanding" it. By the crowds surrounding him, Jim and lots of other 3abner's, I could see he was telling the truth.
Now you can all argue with your allegations and speculations. But most reasonable people are going to believe someone who was there, talked to these people and personally experienced the spirit filled campmeeting. As opposed to your guesses, accusations and rumors.
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=edited to spit topic into new thread=
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Sam;
Thank you so much for responding to me in particular. I read the post, then decided to wait on my response since you were attending Campmeeting and the 10 Commandment Weekend.
I watched much of it. I was blessed overall, with a few exceptions.
I enjoyed the commentary between sessions with the husband and wife teams. Hope channel does this, and I love it. After they do it several more times, they will improve and be able to talk expanding their vocabularies to have a broader view of the events happening there at 3ABN.
I did enjoy most of the sermons. They were all good; it is just my personal preferences. In my opinion, a couple of speakers forgot they had a commandment to speak about and got derailed for a few minutes, but did get back on track after a few minutes. That does happen to everyone at times, even me!
I enjoyed the 5th and the 7th commandments especially, they were amazing!
As I respond to your comments to me specifically, please understand that my knowledge and understanding of these items are not the same as yours.
This does not mean that I am attacking you at all. As I speak, take the message in the spirit it is given. It is not an attack on you, or your understanding of the subject. That said, I will respond to your comments on the subject of eBay and 3ABN.
Everyone, including Sam, please notice that I have corrected spelling and added or changed some punctuation. I have not changed Sam’s words.
C'mon Bob.
Even those here that hate 3abn that watched can tell you different. I just got back late last night from attending the 3abn Campmeeting. Am so happy to be able now to answer some of your questions that have been posted the last few days.
1. There was an incredible number of people there from opening night on. Sabbath was close to 2000 people.
This was not addresses to me specifically, but I do not believe in taking text out of contest, therefore I chose to leave your post in tact; just split into sections to help me stay on each subject.
To Be Continued…
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2. The check presented to Jim G. on opening night was a total of all sales from the donation department, not just eBay, for the past 9 - 12 months. It was a giant mock check representing the sum of those sales. I visited the sale barn and spoke with Mr. Chance myself. They had an incredible array of items and were extremely busy there.
Why would they be for 9 – 12 months instead of the full past 12 months. To be even more informative, it could have been said that there was a mean average of so many $’s per month, or being for a specific time period. Other than that, it should have been presented as in the past year or as, thus far in this fiscal period we have sold this much.
My perception of the presentation is that Jim Gilley joined with 3ABN in August 2007. That is 9 months. I believe that that is the reason it was for 9 months. Could it be there was a change in the way 3ABN is doing business? I hope so.
If this were the case, it could be said, that this amount was since Jim Gilley became the president, there have been $$$ of sale of the non-cash donated goods given to 3ABN.
When the check was presented, it should have been stated that that check “represented” the amount of sales over a specific period of time, and not for a non specific period of time.
Thank you for telling us that the check was only a "representation" of the sales. It, however, does cause me concern that the sales are accounted for outside of 3ABN’s books. Definitely, the CFO should have been consulted as to how the presentation was made to make sure there was a clear presentation that did not cause questions.
Surely if 3ABN had been advised on these points before hand, and we would not be wondering about it on the Internet.
To Be Continued…
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3. For FRAN.
Never ever has there been a claim for 2.4 million or whatever it was she quoted. The quote was more than 1/2 million for approximately 4 years of work. So Fran's claim of how donations have really "went down" was totally false.
If you can, go back to the last 2 Campmeeting videos or DVD’s, you will find that Danny did interview Tammy on the air. Tammy did announce that since February, 3ABN had brought in $2.4 million in sales of good donated to 3ABN. She said they had sold vehicles, Motor Homes …
Then later they ran a full program with Bruce & Tammy, where they discouraged donors from sending 3ABN jewelry. They explained that they could never get the value of the items.
My opinion says that if a $10,000 diamond is donated, and it only brings $2,500, that $2,500 is more than they had before the donation! With the price of gold right now, I would take the gold jewelry also!
To solve this dilemma, I might ask that you ask Tammy about this. She was the one on the stage, not Bruce.
I firmly state that this is a Fact. Sales from donated items have gone down. Tammy did not stumble when she said that amount was from February thru May, Campmeeting time. She got great applause! Danny was bragging about her doing so well in the sales department. Yes, sales are down, and she did say $2.4 million.
The reason I remember that figure is because in the 3ABN vs. the IL Property Tax Lawsuit and the 990’s brought out that 3ABN forgot to post $2.45+ Million dollars involving Trust Funds. These amounts struck me as a coincidence.
I took that amount and took an average per month and then researched their sales from their feedback on eBay. It had to be from sales from their other eBay sellers and the now Famous Barn Sales.
Do you by “Chance”, know the sales from the Barn Sale this year?
To Be Continued…
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4. For FRAN. The gift shop on eBay was never called don_3abn. That was the user ID. Anything sold on eBay before the Chance's took over was sold in the normal auction fashion as there was no store until the Chance's started one. From day one the store was called 3 Angels gift shop and still remains with that name. Again, The claims by Fran that the store name was changed to hide bad feedback is 100% false. Let's go over it again for clarification. don_3abn was the user ID as there was no store until the Chance's started one. Anything sold before that time was sold in the regular way, not via a store.
My goodness, no argument here since we are both right. My post did say don_3abn was the user id! We have the same understanding on this front. We are in agreement. Look at my post in response to Bonnie, who asked if anyone knew the “User ID” for 3ABN. I responded to her “don_3ABN” is the user id.
So we are in agreement on this item.
Now, 3ABN started selling on eBay in 1998. I made purchases. The User ID at that time was nan_don! The Store now says it started June 1, 2001, on the information page right now. 3ABN has a total feedback of 2011; however the feedback SCORE is 1581. What does this mean? It means that they have bought and sold to 1581 unique accounts. The difference is for repeat sellers and buyers.
Go to:
http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback2&userid=nan_don&ftab=AllFeedback
nan_don have feedback that begins on page 186. On the bottom left you will find a go to button. Enter 186 and click go. They began getting feedback Mar-20-98 06:10
Now, if you will go to:
http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback2&ftab=FeedbackAsSeller&userid=nan_don&iid=-1&de=off&items=25
Notice I am on page 150, the first page of feedback as a seller! Click on the tabs to view other data. This shows when nan_don started on their own in Van, TX.
It only began on May-15-02 19:30. This is very interesting since they have been selling since Mar-06-98. Is that strange or what? Why they are only attributed feedback since Aug-13-01 18:43, is the question.. They did not get credit for the sales from 1998 to 8/13/2001. That belongs to 3ABN.
Go to as a Buyer Feedback on page 27:
http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback2&ftab=FeedbackAsBuyer&userid=nan_don&iid=-1&de=off&items=25
They started making purchases through eBay only beginning Aug-13-01 18:43.
Now go to 3ABN. Click on all of the tabs. And check the Feedback tabs.
Since 3ABN began 6/1/2001, where is their feedback before Aug-31-02 09:33. Fourteen months are gone. You look on your own from here on.
http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback2&ftab=AllFeedback&userid=don_3abn&iid=-1&de=off&items=25
Who gets the credit for everything before August 13, 2001? That went to nan_don .
Now for this statement from the post above,
“Again, The claims by Fran that the store name was changed to hide bad feedback is 100% false. Let's go over it again for clarification.”
I never said it was done to get rid of BAD feedback. I said it was to get rid of plane old feedback. I started posting 3ABN irregularities in posts over at Club Adventist.
The store did change its name 4 times in less than 2 weeks. I posted and told everyone to go look quickly because tomorrow it may change again! I am not going to discuss about the other names. I was told not to talk about it. And I choose to follow instructions on some items.
All I can give is my word right now. However, the name changes did work! Feedback started disappearing.
Does anyone know why nan_don sold everything and started over? I hear tell the new store sells only for them. Did I hear correctly?
Also, nan_don has never been a store. They sold for 3ABN until the Chances took over. That is explained by the dates.
http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback2&ftab=AllFeedback&userid=don_3abn&iid=-1&de=off&items=25
The 3ABN Store began 6/1/2001. But there is zero feedback until Sep-07-02 09:13. There are three other feedbacks at random dates that did not get erased. Where is all the feedback from 1998 to Sept 7,2002. Since the feedback went to nan_don on May-15-02 19:30
To Be Continued…
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5. For FRAN.
From Mr. Chance directly:
The beginning of a store was a learning experience. Learning the best way to sell, what to sell, and what payment methods to take. They had to learn about PayPal and its process. In the beginning they accepted checks, money orders, credit card and then PayPal.
Sorry for splitting this paragraph. I can only concentrate on one thing at a time and prefer to break it up in thoughts that are alike.
Ask Bruce when they started using PayPal. He will tell you. It was about 6 week after my post on Club Adventist addressing 3ABN problems I saw with them NOT using PayPal!
That was in 2005. So they really are slow learners. I will agree with that one.
After a time they found that buyers were taking an excessive amount of time to mail in checks and money orders so eventually, they quit taking those methods of payments. Every month the invoices from eBay and PayPal are downloaded, printed out and given to the accounting department, along with copies of the actual sales, buyers name and address and when the item was sold and then shipped. All of these records are turned over to accounting every month.
Oops, this is not a good thing to post! It is very bad! The PayPal sales should be posted at the moment the confirmation is sent. If there is a shortage of employees, they should batch them by day, and get them posted DAILY! This is a Cash Control issue. It is very telling. Ask them to fix this ASAP. This is very, very bad! The sales should be deposited daily into 3ABN from PayPal. The daily print out is then matched with the daily deposits that come to your account at the point of sale! The PayPal expense is posted when PayPal charges it. The eBay/PayPal expenses should be looked at each month to see if you are loosing money!
This tells me that the funds are not deposited at the moment of sale. This leaves the income to be tampered with.
This also tells me the check books are not balanced in a timely manner!
Credit card payments are not taken by the donations department but directly by the accounting department. Accounting is the number listed on ebay to call for cc payment. Each item that is sold is then entered into the database that has the donor's information and constituent number. The item sold is recorded along with the date it was sold and the price it was sold for. Those records are given to the Accounting dept every month so that the donor can be receipted for the sale of their item.
This is also wrong! You are talking about Merchant accounts. You have really hung yourself here Sam. I am praying that you just misunderstood. However, I believe this is what you have been told. Merchant accounts create daily deposits! They should be accounted for Daily! Every day the sales should match the merchant account information. They allow daily print outs! I know. I have handled Merchant Accounts (Plural) and PayPal sales. I have also had to match each one to many checking accounts! I have always balanced the check book daily by checking the bank accounts on a daily basis. If you wait until the end of the month it can get out of hand and it is like hunting for a needle in a haystack!
This news is very disturbing to me. Not much has changed. From the reports about the symbolic check, I was hoping things had truly changed, but they have not!
Paragraph 5 To Be Continued…?
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Rather complicated isn't it? Quite a paper trail. Having read all of the speculation and allegations concerning this (as well as many others) I made a point to ask the questions and received the answers in an open and concise manner. I got these answers straight from the "horses mouth" as they say. How wrong you all have been about this and so many other things.
It is not complicated at all. It is very simple. If it is not done right, Accountants across America will complain. So will the IRS.
Several board members were in attendance. When I ask one (without trying to seem like I was just prying) if any of the subjects voted on, during the board meeting, resulted in any kind of tie vote. This board member answered absolutely not and couldn't imagine where I would hear such false information.
It was a fantastic and spirit filled Campmeeting. I talked to many, many people there who couldn't wait until the Fall Campmeeting. That includes me!
I talked for a minute with Pastor Gilley. He said Danny had a nice break while building his house but he wanted to get him to spend a lot more time on the air. He said people are "demanding" it. By the crowds surrounding him, Jim and lots of other 3abner's, I could see he was telling the truth.
Now you can all argue with your allegations and speculations. But most reasonable people are going to believe someone who was there, talked to these people and personally experienced the spirit filled Campmeeting; as opposed to your guesses, accusations, and rumors.
I will reserve my opinions on this because I was not there. Sam, we research things differently. I back up what I say with visible facts. I hate to disagree with you on these points because you have your own ways to find what is wrong and what is right.
I am praying for both of us to come together as one in Christ. However, each of us has different backgrounds. Far too many people have broken my trust. It is hard for me to believe something on someone’s word.
I can join in your comments about this Campmeeting/Ten Commandment Weekend.
God is our Savior and deliverer. Let us pray for the truth to be brought forward in concrete evidence so that all can see.
Accounting I know! That is why I speak out so much about finances. I accept the data on save-3abn.com as very real.
Sam, please ask those at 3ABN to bring forward their evidence so I can see to believe. Jesus is coming soon and I don’t want for Jesus to bring everything forward. Please let us join in payer for truth.
I love you as one with me in Christ. If I have angered you, I am so sorry. I did not do it with intent to harm or hurt. I do get carried away sometimes with accounting.
I will reread to make sure everyone can understand what I am trying to say.
May God be with you and yours.
I have corrected spelling and added punctuation to the Post from Sam. I hope this is OK with you Sam.
Fran
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This is my last post about the finances at 3ABN. I will be posting on the evidences brought forward to date. Please do not PM or email me for more information. I can not give it.
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This is my last post about the finances at 3ABN. I will be posting on the evidences brought forward to date. Please do not PM or email me for more information. I can not give it.
Looking forward to more information as it comes in, Fran!
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Bump for review.
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Rather complicated isn't it? Quite a paper trail. Having read all of the speculation and allegations concerning this (as well as many others) I made a point to ask the questions and received the answers in an open and concise manner. I got these answers straight from the "horses mouth" as they say. How wrong you all have been about this and so many other things.
It is not complicated at all. It is very simple. If it is not done right, Accountants across America will complain. So will the IRS.
Anyone with the elementary rudimentary knowledge of bookkeeping practices would understand that this was an absolute no-no. Books must balance each day. As 3abn hired attorneys and financial people to care for this area of their business, they will indeed, be held accountable. No business can get away with a lame excuse such as "I didn't know that wasn't the way to do it".
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I am bewildered why Sam would just tell the world what is actually happening at 3ABN. This fact has me rattles to no end! It is clear that Sam believes this is the proper way it is done in real life. It is not. Where are there accounting efficiency experts to set up Cash Control. It could cause one to believe that it is intentionally done this way to be able to decide what is kept for personal use and what is reported as a sale to 3ABN Accounting. The way 3ABN does this leaves a huge hole in cash flow. I am of the opinion that this current procedure is this way for that very purpose.
Now, who is it that has sold 3ABN's equipment, but no longer does this under their personal account. They stopped when I posted some facts on Club Adventist. Who got the money from the sale? Later, I will tell who this seller is/was and some of the things they sold.
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Rather complicated isn't it? Quite a paper trail. Having read all of the speculation and allegations concerning this (as well as many others) I made a point to ask the questions and received the answers in an open and concise manner. I got these answers straight from the "horses mouth" as they say. How wrong you all have been about this and so many other things.
It is not complicated at all. It is very simple. If it is not done right, Accountants across America will complain. So will the IRS.
Anyone with the elementary rudimentary knowledge of bookkeeping practices would understand that this was an absolute no-no. Books must balance each day. As 3abn hired attorneys and financial people to care for this area of their business, they will indeed, be held accountable. No business can get away with a lame excuse such as "I didn't know that wasn't the way to do it".
Crissie,
It seems to me beyond belief that people who handle millions of dollars at 3ABN would not be familiar with the basic principle that the books have to be kept current, and every penny accounted for. I remember how careful I had to be about balancing the cash register at the ABC in Manhattan at the end of each work day.
Only people who cook the books want them out of balance. And, as evidence piles up, it seems that we are going to learn soon at what temperature the "good people" at 3ABN have roasted their books.
Eduard
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I have visited the donations Barn in past campmeetings and talked to both of the Chances and found them friendly, open and honest about how all works in their department and the records etc.
The mistake being made here is that people are assuming that the monthly accounts being sent to the accounting department means that the donation department does not keep daily records and such. That is simply not true.
My brother is the head of shipping and receiving in a very large company and is responsible for keeping daily records in his department, but once a month he too has to do inventory and make print outs and send all records and copies and receipts etc to the accounting department.
I don't know what Fran is going on about... This is neither unusual nor wrong.
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I don't know what Fran is going on about... This is neither unusual nor wrong.
You just can't help yourself can you Ian? The nasty side has to come out ALWAYS.
Fran presents knowledge and facts. You present anger and defence of DS and 3abn, but can never back yourself up with evidence.
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I don't know what Fran is going on about... This is neither unusual nor wrong.
You just can't help yourself can you Ian? The nasty side has to come out ALWAYS.
Fran presents knowledge and facts. You present anger and defence of DS and 3abn, but can never back yourself up with evidence.
:huh:
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I have visited the donations Barn in past campmeetings and talked to both of the Chances and found them friendly, open and honest about how all works in their department and the records etc.
The mistake being made here is that people are assuming that the monthly accounts being sent to the accounting department means that the donation department does not keep daily records and such. That is simply not true.
My brother is the head of shipping and receiving in a very large company and is responsible for keeping daily records in his department, but once a month he too has to do inventory and make print outs and send all records and copies and receipts etc to the accounting department.
I don't know what Fran is going on about... This is neither unusual nor wrong.
Ian;
I am so sorry you don't understand what I am "going on" about. It is not up to me to tell you or 3ABN how they should do business; nor is it my responsibility to educate you so you can understand the proper way business is done.
Apparently, there are others that read Sam's post and caught on to the fact that the way things are done is not right.
I am sorry I don't have the time to explain what the generally accepted accounting principles require, but I can say the CFO at 3ABN needs to revamp the way they do business.
The first major thing I see is there is no division/separation of duties in the process Sam described. Further, your comments even tell and confirm what Sam said! The sales person should never be in charge of inventory. The sales person should never deal with cash receipts, ... Ian, these are the most basic accounting that are necessary to control cash and inventory! Separation of duties is exposed in what I have found in my many years of observing 3ABN eBay sales, now it is crystal clear that my findings are correct.
If the GC were auditing 3ABN's books as they are supposed to do as a member of ASI. This alone, should send red flags up all over the place!
ASI would do well to review 3ABN as a member in good standing. They should be able to enforce proper accountability of 3ABN.
3ABN could ask the Conference President to give him a copy of the form all Treasures have to fill out for a Church audit. This is the very least one should do. I mean, THE VERY LEAST".
Please respond so I can see where I am all wrong. I wonder why Sam has not replied, don't you?
Yours in Christ,
Fran
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Hey, Fran, that was an excellent synopsis and response to poor Sam.
Can you plan on coming to Massachusetts and doing the very same show for the Jury?
That alone should cause serious concern to a Jury being told that they have "clean bills of health" and be foundational for the rest of the defense.
Love that response and it is noticable that since you started writing in the dirt, the pharisees have left the temple one by one...
Gailon Arthur Joy
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Ian - where did you study accounting??
I have visited the donations Barn in past campmeetings and talked to both of the Chances and found them friendly, open and honest about how all works in their department and the records etc.
The mistake being made here is that people are assuming that the monthly accounts being sent to the accounting department means that the donation department does not keep daily records and such. That is simply not true.
My brother is the head of shipping and receiving in a very large company and is responsible for keeping daily records in his department, but once a month he too has to do inventory and make print outs and send all records and copies and receipts etc to the accounting department.
I don't know what Fran is going on about... This is neither unusual nor wrong.
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People have a life and can't be on here 24/7. For instance I will be gone for three days to a church conference with my mother and sister. Thought I would mention it now before it is rumored I have left for some imagined reason.
[/quote]and it is noticable that since you started writing in the dirt, the pharisees have left the temple one by one...
Gailon Arthur Joy
[/quote]
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LOL! That actually is quite funny Donna. You wouldn't want to be accused of having run off to have a spiritual affair with any spirits or other characters.
People have a life and can't be on here 24/7. For instance I will be gone for three days to a church conference with my mother and sister. Thought I would mention it now before it is rumored I have left for some imagined reason.
and it is noticable that since you started writing in the dirt, the pharisees have left the temple one by one...
Gailon Arthur Joy
[/quote]
[/quote]
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snip...
Love that response and it is noticable that since you started writing in the dirt, the pharisees have left the temple one by one...
Gailon Arthur Joy
The story of Jesus and the woman in that temple courtyard is one of my favorite stories in all of the Bible. Perhaps this is because I have a deep empathy for the woman and the unexpected redemption she was given as our Gentle Shepherd reached His hand through her hopelessness and lifted her up into new life with Him. He knew the hearts of every person in that sad human drama. He knew every agenda, every sin those misguided interpretors of His Law had committed in an all out effort to trap Him.
Your remarks to Fran, using the framework of this marvelous story about our Savior brought to mind something that Bob has often spoken about....the August 10, 2006 3abn Live broadcast that likened Danny Shelton to Moses and John the Baptist.
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3. For FRAN.
Never ever has there been a claim for 2.4 million or whatever it was she quoted. The quote was more than 1/2 million for approximately 4 years of work. So Fran's claim of how donations have really "went down" was totally false.
If you can, go back to the last 2 Campmeeting videos or DVD’s, you will find that Danny did interview Tammy on the air. Tammy did announce that since February, 3ABN had brought in $2.4 million in sales of good donated to 3ABN. She said they had sold vehicles, Motor Homes …
Then later they ran a full program with Bruce & Tammy, where they discouraged donors from sending 3ABN jewelry. They explained that they could never get the value of the items.
My opinion says that if a $10,000 diamond is donated, and it only brings $2,500, that $2,500 is more than they had before the donation! With the price of gold right now, I would take the gold jewelry also!
To solve this dilemma, I might ask that you ask Tammy about this. She was the one on the stage, not Bruce.
I firmly state that this is a Fact. Sales from donated items have gone down. Tammy did not stumble when she said that amount was from February thru May, Campmeeting time. She got great applause! Danny was bragging about her doing so well in the sales department. Yes, sales are down, and she did say $2.4 million.
The reason I remember that figure is because in the 3ABN vs. the IL Property Tax Lawsuit and the 990’s brought out that 3ABN forgot to post $2.45+ Million dollars involving Trust Funds. These amounts struck me as a coincidence.
I took that amount and took an average per month and then researched their sales from their feedback on eBay. It had to be from sales from their other eBay sellers and the now Famous Barn Sales.
Do you by “Chance”, know the sales from the Barn Sale this year?
To Be Continued…
Fran decided not to "horse around" and take your comments and speculations straight to the source...I sent them to 3abn attention Tammy Chance and got answers to all I ask. Or, should I say you ask? Extremely eye opening when considering a lot of what you based your comments on was incorrect.
If you want to know what is truth then go to 3abndefended and you will get your answers and will understand how "off the track" someone can get when their premise is faulty. Might not be posted yet as posts have to be approved but I'm sure it will be soon.
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3. For FRAN.
Never ever has there been a claim for 2.4 million or whatever it was she quoted. The quote was more than 1/2 million for approximately 4 years of work. So Fran's claim of how donations have really "went down" was totally false.
If you can, go back to the last 2 Campmeeting videos or DVD’s, you will find that Danny did interview Tammy on the air. Tammy did announce that since February, 3ABN had brought in $2.4 million in sales of good donated to 3ABN. She said they had sold vehicles, Motor Homes …
Then later they ran a full program with Bruce & Tammy, where they discouraged donors from sending 3ABN jewelry. They explained that they could never get the value of the items.
My opinion says that if a $10,000 diamond is donated, and it only brings $2,500, that $2,500 is more than they had before the donation! With the price of gold right now, I would take the gold jewelry also!
To solve this dilemma, I might ask that you ask Tammy about this. She was the one on the stage, not Bruce.
I firmly state that this is a Fact. Sales from donated items have gone down. Tammy did not stumble when she said that amount was from February thru May, Campmeeting time. She got great applause! Danny was bragging about her doing so well in the sales department. Yes, sales are down, and she did say $2.4 million.
The reason I remember that figure is because in the 3ABN vs. the IL Property Tax Lawsuit and the 990’s brought out that 3ABN forgot to post $2.45+ Million dollars involving Trust Funds. These amounts struck me as a coincidence.
I took that amount and took an average per month and then researched their sales from their feedback on eBay. It had to be from sales from their other eBay sellers and the now Famous Barn Sales.
Do you by “Chance”, know the sales from the Barn Sale this year?
To Be Continued…
Fran decided not to "horse around" and take your comments and speculations straight to the source...I sent them to 3abn attention Tammy Chance and got answers to all I ask. Or, should I say you ask? Extremely eye opening when considering a lot of what you based your comments on was incorrect.
If you want to know what is truth then go to 3abndefended and you will get your answers and will understand how "off the track" someone can get when their premise is faulty. Might not be posted yet as posts have to be approved but I'm sure it will be soon.
It is there now. Thank you Sam.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/3abnDefended/message/33
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I stand behind what I said and heard. Now, I wonder if this amount just didn't get posted like that un-posted Trust Fund issues in the amount of $2.43 found in the Property tax lawsuit, and the IRS 900 for that same year (2000-2001).
I would go to the website, but I am not about to joining any such web site.
-
I stand behind what I said and heard. Now, I wonder if this amount just didn't get posted like that un-posted Trust Fund issues in the amount of $2.43 found in the Property tax lawsuit, and the IRS 900 for that same year (2000-2001).
I would go to the website, but I am not about to joining any such web site.
You don't have to join to read the post and emailed answers at the link given... Nor does any other.
Plainly Mrs Shelton who you have been talking about and finding fault with for the way she and her husband do their jobs, has facts you don't have, and a different story than yours.
-
Mrs. Chance
Plainly Mrs Shelton who you have been talking about and finding fault with for the way she and her husband do their jobs, has facts you don't have, and a different story than yours.
-
Ian;
Why must you keep putting words in my mouth? I am not and have not accused anyone of anything. I am saying 3ABN has defective cash control procedures.
I admire Bruce and Tammy's entrepreneurial talents. I have even posted that on other forums. The way business is conducted is the responsibility of the CFO, Board and president. It is not the responsibility of the sales person. I have never condemned them! I have only spoken clearly about the accounting processes of 3ABN, or the clear lack thereof, at 3ABN. [/size]
Their story is very clear. They are only citing the way things are done. 3ABN has FAR more financial issues than 3ABN eBay! Their whole accounting processes needs to be dumped and started from scratch to set things to the correct procedures and applying the correct processes.
However, there nay be some issues that I have knowledge of that could involve Tammy, but this is another story for another time. Until that time, please understand that I have in no way condemned Tammy or Bruce of any thing.
I am truly sad and sorry that you seem to hear what I have not said. Do you know something I have no knowledge of? Are you trying to scare me, or trying to make me look bad by accusing me of saying things I did not say? I will be praying for you to have a clearer mind so you can only take what is written and not jump to conclusions.
Please pray that I will write more concisely so others will only see and understand what is written and not something that is not there.
Please give Bruce and Tammy Chance my sincerest apology if they feel I am pointing fingers at them. My take is the the one that handles all the financial matters, and according to the Property Tax Lawsuit, that person is Danny Shelton. I apologize to anyone who felt I was talking about Tammy or Bruce Chance being responsibility for 3ABN's defective Accounting Procedures.
If there comes a day I feel either Bruce Chance or Tammy Shelton-Chance are responsible for something wrong financially, on their own, I will speak their names very clearly and will not stutter.
I stand behind what I said and heard. Now, I wonder if this amount just didn't get posted like that unposted Trust Fund issues in the amount of $2.43 found in the Property tax lawsuit, and the IRS 900 for that same year (2000-2001).
I would go to the website, but I am not about to joining any such web site.
You don't have to join to read the post and emailed answers at the link given... Nor does any other.
Plainly Mrs Shelton who you have been talking about and finding fault with for the way she and her husband do their jobs, has facts you don't have, and a different story than yours.
-
Sam;
I did go to your defend site. I saved all the topics and all of the messages and will use them as further documentation of false accusations. Were you afraid to cut and past the reply to you from Tammy Chance? Were you afraid I was right? I am going to reply to your post and email from Tammy Chance right in this very thread. Then I am going to cut and paste the replies directly on yout defend site on yahoo. You have made some seriously inacurate accusation of things that I did not say. When I finish, please receive the message in love. I was very disappointed in your relaying things I did not say.
However, I was flattered to see that the whole of your defend site is all about me. That did make me laugh because I am nobody! But since you addressed what you felt I said, I am going to need to respond. I will do this bacause you are trying to misslead people with your posts. I won't be too long.
I may take this chance to address Tammy Shelton-Chance up close and personal about her and my dealings with 3ABN eBay and her user ID 812worden and her store on eBay that closed down. Plus many other interesting facts. I won't tell everything, but enough for you to have something to chew on for a while. I tried to post earlier, but I couldn't. But I will try again.
Never ever has there been a claim for 2.4 million or whatever it was she quoted. The quote was more than 1/2 million for approximately 4 years of work. So Fran's claim of how donations have really "went down" was totally false.
If you can, go back to the last 2 Campmeeting videos or DVD’s, you will find that Danny did interview Tammy on the air. Tammy did announce that since February, 3ABN had brought in $2.4 million in sales of good donated to 3ABN. She said they had sold vehicles, Motor Homes …
Then later they ran a full program with Bruce & Tammy, where they discouraged donors from sending 3ABN jewelry. They explained that they could never get the value of the items.
My opinion says that if a $10,000 diamond is donated, and it only brings $2,500, that $2,500 is more than they had before the donation! With the price of gold right now, I would take the gold jewelry also!
To solve this dilemma, I might ask that you ask Tammy about this. She was the one on the stage, not Bruce.
I firmly state that this is a Fact. Sales from donated items have gone down. Tammy did not stumble when she said that amount was from February thru May, Campmeeting time. She got great applause! Danny was bragging about her doing so well in the sales department. Yes, sales are down, and she did say $2.4 million.
The reason I remember that figure is because in the 3ABN vs. the IL Property Tax Lawsuit and the 990’s brought out that 3ABN forgot to post $2.45+ Million dollars involving Trust Funds. These amounts struck me as a coincidence.
I took that amount and took an average per month and then researched their sales from their feedback on eBay. It had to be from sales from their other eBay sellers and the now Famous Barn Sales.
Do you by “Chance”, know the sales from the Barn Sale this year?
To Be Continued…
3. For FRAN.
Fran decided not to "horse around" and take your comments and speculations straight to the source...I sent them to 3abn attention Tammy Chance and got answers to all I ask. Or, should I say you ask? Extremely eye opening when considering a lot of what you based your comments on was incorrect.
If you want to know what is truth then go to 3abndefended and you will get your answers and will understand how "off the track" someone can get when their premise is faulty. Might not be posted yet as posts have to be approved but I'm sure it will be soon.
-
I feel this is very good. We are getting somewhere. I have been able to open up communication with Sam, Ian and others. Forums are for discussion and frankly, I am enjoying the new posts on that defend yahoo! Pray that we can continue to communicate in truth and love.
-
Comments later.
Posted by: sam11584 Fri Jun 6, 2008 1:16 am
STRAIGHT ANSWERS TO EBAY QUESTIONS
I took questions that a member of another forum had about 3 angels eBay store and donation department straight to the source..Tammy Chance. The following are the questions I ask and the answers I received through email.
From: Tammy Chance
Sent: Thu 6/05/08 11:58 AM
To:
Sam,
I have no problem with answering your questions to the best of my ability. I will try to go through them one at a time.
#1 Q. Now, 3ABN started selling on eBay in 1998. I made purchases. The User ID at that time was nan_don! The Store now says it started June 1, 2001, on the information page right now. 3ABN has a total feedback of 2011; however the feedback SCORE is 1581. What does this mean? It means that they have bought and sold to 1581 unique accounts. The difference is for repeat sellers and buyers.
#1 A. At no time was 3abn's user name nan-don. If you will look at the link that you sent me it says nan_don had over 4000 sales! That certainly wasn't us. Only a very limited number of items were even sold on eBay before we created the donation dept and then started the store. Nan_don had nothing whatsoever to do with 3 Angels. Someone entirely different. I won't go into answering the rest of the questions you sent pertaining to nan_don since it is a moot point. As far as the feedback score, repeat buyers are limited to the amount of feedback that can be left, and we also must take into account that some people that purchase don't bother to leave feedback so their purchase isn't calculated into feedback scores.
________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
#2 Q. Did the store change its name 4 times in less than 2 weeks?
#2 A. Absolutely not! There was no eBay store until I created and named the store and I have never changed it! I am guessing this is another error related to the nan_don ID.
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
#3 Q. The PayPal expense is posted when PayPal charges it. The eBay/PayPal expenses should be looked at each month to see if you are loosing money!
#3 A. Though this wasn't a question I will answer. Every sale is logged into the computer database which connects to the accounting dept. It is done at the time of the sale and the money from the item goes directly into 3abn's account as soon as the person pays unless they use an e check which takes approximately 7 days to clear. We do not sell items everyday but when we do all is taken care of the day of sale and again when payment is made. (We have a 3 day payment policy). Every sold item has a check and balance.
Monthly reports are as follows: A download of all paypal payments and fees. A download of all auctioned items and store inventory items as well as, all sold items and all fees pertaining to those
items.
There is a monthly donor "sold item report" which shows the items that were sold, the donor that gave the items, the donor's constituent number, the sale date and the amount sold for. These
records are compared with the eBay/paypal records and any receipts and records of sales outside of eBay.
As items arrive they are logged into the computer with the info of who sent it, constituent number, date received and a description of the item or items. A report of those items is made monthly.
Though you didn't ask for a "play by play" directly it may simplify the process for you if I explain the process.
When an item or items arrive at 3 Angels it arrives at the call center's shipping and receiving dept. The S/R manager opens the box, gets the general idea of what is in it (doll, picture, quilt)and
makes a note of the description, who sent it and when it arrived. These are kept on file. The box is then brought over to the donation department where an assistant inventories the box completely and then logs the contents into the database along with donor and const #, date received....Then the item or items is tagged or labeled with the const # of the person who gave it. Later when it is sold we look up the record by the const # where it was entered upon arrival and we put the date sold and the amount sold for.
The same process of recording the sold items also applies to the Barn Sale. Each item is tagged with the correct const # and is recorded when it sells. When the monthly sale report is printed out it is given to accounting so that they can receipt the donor for their items that sold.
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
#4 Q. Did you ever say on a program that you had brought in 2.4 million dollars?
#4 A. Absolutely not! Because we haven't. On one program we quoted that over several years time we had brought in a quarter of a million and on a later program close to half a million. Again those figures were over several years. I don't have the exact time period in front of me but 2.4 never happened and hasn't happened yet. We have faith that one day we will reach that mark though as we continue to receive great donations.
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
#5 Q. What time period did the mock check you presented to Jim G. represent?
#5 A. One year.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
#6 Q. When did you begin using PayPal? Was it because of something you read on Club Adventist?
#6 A. lol We began using paypal in 2003. I never heard of Club Adventist until about 8 or 9 months ago and certainly have never been there.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
#7 Q. Is your department audited?
#7 A. Absolutely. The auditor's come to our department with all the reports in hand. They know our system and the checks and balances that are in place. Given the complexities of all that is involved, + a massive paper trail, they give us good marks on our accountability with the department. Laws change as time goes by so we comply with everything we are told to do by our CFO and the auditor's. That results in periodic changes that are implemented into the program and we do our best to keep up.
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
I could go into more facts and details than told here but I won't bore you with everything that is required of us. Suffice it to say we keep as precise and detailed records as is possible and we
continue to grow as our department grows.
Hope this helps,
Tammy Chance
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People have a life and can't be on here 24/7. For instance I will be gone for three days to a church conference with my mother and sister. Thought I would mention it now before it is rumored I have left for some imagined reason.
and it is noticable that since you started writing in the dirt, the pharisees have left the temple one by one...
Gailon Arthur Joy
[/quote]
[/quote]
So. let's see, is this Donna or Ian writing here??? Mother and two sisters???
GAJ
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" If you want to know what is truth then go to 3abndefended and you will get your answers and will understand how "off the track" someone can get when their premise is faulty. Might not be posted yet as posts have to be approved but I'm sure it will be soon." SAM
Well, SAM, just who has to approve these little jewels, SAM? ANd who is funding this creative effort?3 ABN Donors, by chance?
Gailon Arthur Joy
-
I wrote this a few days ago, but waited to post. Today a new day begins and the Sabbath has ended. I will be back next week end. All I ask is that you keep all these dates in mind so I can add to this post later and not have to recopy what I have already posted. Thank you.
To Tammy;
Thank you for allowing Sam to post your answers to his questions. I do appreciate your time and consideration.
From: Tammy Chance
Sent: Thu 6/05/08 11:58 AM
To:
Sam,
I have no problem with answering your questions to the best of my ability. I will try to go through them one at a time.
#1 Q. Now, 3ABN started selling on eBay in 1998. I made purchases. The User ID at that time was nan_don! The Store now says it started June 1, 2001, on the information page right now. 3ABN has a total feedback of 2011; however the feedback SCORE is 1581. What does this mean? It means that they have bought and sold to 1581 unique accounts. The difference is for repeat sellers and buyers.
#1 A. At no time was 3abn's user name nan_don. If you will look at the link that you sent me it says nan_don had over 4000 sales! That certainly wasn't us. Only a very limited number of items were even sold on eBay before we created the donation dept and then started the store. Nan_don had nothing whatsoever to do with 3 Angels. Someone entirely different. I won't go into answering the rest of the questions you sent pertaining to nan_don since it is a moot point. As far as the feedback score, repeat buyers are limited to the amount of feedback that can be left, and we also must take into account that some people that purchase don't bother to leave feedback so their purchase isn't calculated into feedback scores.
If 3ABN sales started selling in 1998, where is the feedback from 1998 to 8/31/2002? Check the link below. It is 3ABN Feed Back.
Click on the All Feed Back Tab;
Go to the bottom Left and get the number of the last page;
Enter that last page number into the block on the bottom right side;
Click “Go” This is part of what you will see at the end of page 81.
The last 2 entries are entries they did not get rid of. Feedback begins on 8/31/2002. This is interesting in more than one way.
Pay particular attention to the item numbers of each entry. The last 2 entries have 10 digit item numbers; however the ones after those have only 9 digits. As you sell, new item numbers are created by eBay. 10 digits item numbers come AFTER 9digit numbers. The first feedback should have the least amount of numbers. This is not so in this case. Why? Where is the rest of the feedback?
http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback2&userid=don_3abn&ftab=AllFeedback&myworld=true
fast responce nice to do business with great costermere---thanks--A++++++++++.........Buyer:...albert.stein ( 2459)........Sep-07-02 09:13-- (#900335449) --
Pkg. arrived, items as described . Thanks................................................................Buyer:...mallorie32 ( 4739)..........Aug-31-02 09:33-- (#895730015) --
Very pleased with item and service,thaks. A+A+A+...................................................Buyer:...jfwpeace ( 1515)...........Aug-31-02 04:45-- (#1368981915) --
Excellent communication. Fast Shipping. Great seller.................................................Buyer:...ilvwv ( 58)....................Jul-11-01 04:54-- (#1248196783)—
Notice Tammy falls short of telling who had it between nan_don and 3ABN Store. They just had, ”someone”. Why not settle this by telling us where all that feedback is?
I used to have to go to the 3ABN site to get the link to the “Someone” selling for eBay. Every item listed had a statement on the page that said to contact Nancy with any questions. So we just need to find that feedback. Or, has it already been found?
Go to this link:
http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback2&ftab=AllFeedback&userid=nan_don&iid=-1&de=off&items=25
Just do as you did before.
Click on the All Feed Back Tab;
Go to the bottom Left and get the number of the last page.
Enter that last page number into the block on the bottom right side.
Click “Go” This is part of what you will see at the end of page 186.
This is the feedback attached to nan_don. Now click on the tab that says, “All Feedback”.
http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback2&ftab=FeedbackAsSeller&userid=nan_don&iid=-1&de=off&items=25
Good transaction, great doing business with …………………………………………………..craftypaws ( 540) ……….Mar-20-98 06:10
Notice the first feedback as a seller entry attributed to nan_don. The first sale for nan_don was not until 5/15/2002. Go to the last page, 150.
http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback2&ftab=FeedbackAsSeller&userid=nan_don&iid=-1&de=off&items=25
Click on the All Feed Back Tab;
Go to the bottom Left and get the number of the last page.
Enter that last page number into the block on the bottom right side.
Click “Go” This is part of what you will see at the end of page 150.
N Wonderful transaction! Thank you very much. AAAAAAAA++++++++++++ …hoensew ( 1281) …May-15-02 19:30 -- (#1725671860)
Why would they have feedback back to 1998, but only got feedback for selling since 2002? Click the Feedback as Seller and do the same as before. They only began buying on 8/31/01
Good transaction. Thanks A+++++++++……………………………………………………………..plard ( 2811) …………………Aug-13-01 18:43 -- (#1451167988)
What seller should have gotten all that feedback from 1998 to 8/31/2002? Maybe Tammy doesn’t really know since she was not there?
In my next reply I will comment on Q & A #2. Plus, I will discuss another seller that sold 3ABN Assets for 3ABN. Once 2 Media Editing Celeron computers sold for $199.00 each. I may be allowed to tell the sellers name and user id and tell you who got the money.
It will maybe be next week end. I want everyone to read this and check it out on eBay. Don’t decide if I am right or wrong. Just think about the problems presented here.
My strongest questions are; “Where is all that feedback? Where did that money go? Whose account received the money?”
Another thing to look at is the store that Tammy Shelton Chance used to have and closed.
Since 7/12/2004 she sells/buys under the user id of 812worden. Prior to that, she used her store.
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VERY INTERESTING Fran. Thank you for sharing and especially for providing the links so that people can check for themselves.
Take care.
-
Ian;
I am truly sad and sorry that you seem to hear what I have not said. Do you know something I have no knowledge of? Are you trying to scare me, or trying to make me look bad by accusing me of saying things I did not say? I will be praying for you to have a clearer mind so you can only take what is written and not jump to conclusions.
Please pray that I will write more concisely so others will only see and understand what is written and not something that is not there.
I find it interesting, Fran, that you seem to have the same trouble with Ian as I have had since soon after she started posting on BSDA, and also here on AT. She seems to have an artificial inner ear which hears what I have not said. And she jumps to a conclusion based on that inner ear which is completely strange to what I have said.
At least two of us have had that same experience with IAN. Perhaps others have noticed that too?
What could be her purpose in what she is doing?
-
Ian;
I am truly sad and sorry that you seem to hear what I have not said. Do you know something I have no knowledge of? Are you trying to scare me, or trying to make me look bad by accusing me of saying things I did not say? I will be praying for you to have a clearer mind so you can only take what is written and not jump to conclusions.
Please pray that I will write more concisely so others will only see and understand what is written and not something that is not there.
I find it interesting, Fran, that you seem to have the same trouble with Ian as I have had since soon after she started posting on BSDA, and also here on AT. She seems to have an artificial inner ear which hears what I have not said. And she jumps to a conclusion based on that inner ear which is completely strange to what I have said.
At least two of us have had that same experience with IAN. Perhaps others have noticed that too?
What could be her purpose in what she is doing?
Hello.
It looks to me like she's one of just a handful here who is really trying to check things out and get to the truth.
I just read the following in answer to Fran's last post:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/3abnDefended/message/92
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/3abnDefended/message/93
-
I brought this over from the 3abndefended site. I have to say, I am truly disappointed in Ian's questions to nan_don. You failed to ask them just who that feedback from 1998 through 8/31/2002 belongs to?
My questions were:
“Where is all that feedback?
Where did that money go?
Whose account received the money?”
None of the information supplied below answers any of the items I addressed.
Sam & Ian;
What I am looking for is the feedback for 3ABN from 1998-8/31/2002. How does this help us find the truth of the matter? If I were selling for 3ABN and kept part of the proceeds, I would deny it to my death bed. Ask nan_don just why they did not become sellers until long after 1998? Where does all of that feedback belong? You have missed the whole point of the subject.
Since you have contacts with 3ABN, Sam & Tammy, would you please ask them to tell me where all that feedback went? I believe answers are geared to the question. I did not find your questions pertinent to the subject at hand. Ask nan_don to read what I have posted and what you have posted so they can see with their eyes what I said and the links to their site.
Undoubtedly, the feedback belongs to someone else. Maybe they will be so gracious as to tell us. If they decline, I will really have questions for eBay. They run a tight ship. They know. Maybe you should see if they will tell you. My goal is to set this to rest. However, I can not do that since I bought from nan_don before 2002. I had a different user id and a different email account at that time.
I appreciate your attempt at trying to get something out of nan_don. I would suggest they no longer sell for 3ABN. If you are of a mind to check nan_don's feedback you will see where they sold their all their items, plus all their molds and shut down! They had a short few days turn around and started selling again. I wonder if it was because all of this information got to 3ABN and they pulled out of nan_don completely. Nan_don are one of my favorite sellers. He is correct, I have made zero purchases from them since 2002.
I believe they thought you were trying to get information about me. They can't give you something they don't have.
I would really love to see 3ABN tell us where that feedback is so we can see for ourselves. They say they have nothing to hide, but they aren't talking.
I appreciate the hard work you have done. We will find the answers yet! Keep up the good work.
Re: STRAIGHT ANSWERS TO EBAY QUESTIONS
I sent two messages to nan_don, and got two answers in return, they are as follows:
eBay sent this message to **** **** (****).
Your registered name is included to show this message originated from eBay. Learn more.
Message from eBay member, *****
Do not respond to the sender if this message requests that you complete the transaction outside of eBay. This type of offer is against eBay policy, may be fraudulent, and is not covered by buyer protection programs. Learn More.
User details:
From User: ****
****
Member since Mar-27-05 in United States
Location : IN, United States
Activity with **** (last 90 days):I have bid on 0 items from ****
Activity with **** (last 90 days):**** has bid on 0 of my items
Dear nan_don,
Could you take the time to clear up some controversy?
A woman named Fran _____ has repeatedly linked your user name nan_don and feedback for your user name with 3ABN , and with their eBay store: (Fran's Note: ----- I never said they sold for the 3ABN Store! There is a huge difference in what is being said. Be careful to use quotes when referring to statements made by others)
http://stores.ebay.com/3-ANGELS-GIFT-SHOP_W0QQcfidZ3472278QQcftokenZe2ffe601ebbd654Q2d83B9C1B3Q2d1635Q2d6A49Q2d882006023FC4E24DQQtZkm An eBay Store maintained by: don_3abn
She has done so in various Internet forum discussions.
don_3abn has said:
"At no time was 3abn's user name nan-don. If you will look at the link that you sent me it says nan_don had over 4000 sales! That certainly wasn't us.... Nan_don had nothing whatsoever to do with 3 Angels. Someone entirely different. I won't go into answering the rest of the questions you sent pertaining to nan_don since it is a moot point."
Can you clarify, have ever bought or sold for 3abn, and is the above true or false?
Thank you for your time.
This statement popped up right in the mix. I took it out to make it separate from nan_don. I never said they had anything about them being sellers for the 3ABN Store! They didn't. Remember that the store was not created until 8/31/2002. That was right about the time the auditors hit for the 3ABN vs. IL Property Tax Lawsuit. I would suggest that this was a "timely" event. I never said that nan_don sold items for the store. Other people have sold for 3ABN outside of their store. I could have been a seller, but I wasn't.
I have to see if I can reveal other 3ABN sellers using their personal user id's.
There is another angle in which to look at this. Who declared all those sales under nan_don on their Income Taxes? I hear tell that the IRS is all over seeing if sellers are declaring their income. Maybe I have already asked?
Message from eBay member, nan_don
Do not respond to the sender if this message requests that you complete the transaction outside of eBay. This type of offer is against eBay policy, may be fraudulent, and is not covered by buyer protection programs. Learn More.
User details:
From User: nan_don (4052)
99.8% Positive Feedback
Member since Mar-06-98 in United States
Location : TX, United States
Activity with nan_don (last 90 days):I have bid on 0 items from nan_don
Activity with nan_don (last 90 days):nan_don has bid on 0 of my items
Dear ****,
this is not me and I don't think I have sold or bought from this person.
- nan_don
Want to reply?
eBay sent this message to **** **** (****).
Your registered name is included to show this message originated from eBay. Learn more.
Message from eBay member, ****
Do not respond to the sender if this message requests that you complete the transaction outside of eBay. This type of offer is against eBay policy, may be fraudulent, and is not covered by buyer protection programs. Learn More.
User details:
From User: ****
****
Member since Mar-27-05 in United States
Location : IN, United States
Activity with **** (last 90 days):I have bid on 0 items from ****
Activity with **** (last 90 days):**** has bid on 0 of my items
Dear nan_don,
I am sorry to bother you again, but I have one last question, have you ever sold donations here on eBay for the Three Angels Broadcasting Ministry (3ABN), and if so during what time period? (Fran's Note: Wrong question again! I would suggest they sold their hand crafted items and donated the sales to 3ABN. There are many ways to sell for 3ABN.)That was actually my main question, as that is what this woman is claiming, and what all else that she is saying seems to be based on.
I very much appreciate your time and help.
Thank you
****
Message from eBay member, nan_don
Do not respond to the sender if this message requests that you complete the transaction outside of eBay. This type of offer is against eBay policy, may be fraudulent, and is not covered by buyer protection programs. Learn More.
User details:
From User: nan_don (4053)
99.8% Positive Feedback
Member since Mar-06-98 in United States
Location : TX, United States
Activity with nan_don (last 90 days):I have bid on 0 items from nan_don
Activity with nan_don (last 90 days):nan_don has bid on 0 of my items
Dear ****,
HI,
Never sold anything ever like that.
- nan_don Want to reply?
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Nosir Myzing;
And to think I thought you were talking about me! :oops: :pals:
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Ian;
I am truly sad and sorry that you seem to hear what I have not said. Do you know something I have no knowledge of? Are you trying to scare me, or trying to make me look bad by accusing me of saying things I did not say? I will be praying for you to have a clearer mind so you can only take what is written and not jump to conclusions.
Please pray that I will write more concisely so others will only see and understand what is written and not something that is not there.
I find it interesting, Fran, that you seem to have the same trouble with Ian as I have had since soon after she started posting on BSDA, and also here on AT. She seems to have an artificial inner ear which hears what I have not said. And she jumps to a conclusion based on that inner ear which is completely strange to what I have said.
At least two of us have had that same experience with IAN. Perhaps others have noticed that too?
What could be her purpose in what she is doing?
Hello.
It looks to me like she's one of just a handful here who is really trying to check things out and get to the truth.
I just read the following in answer to Fran's last post:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/3abnDefended/message/92
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/3abnDefended/message/93
What Nosir Mysing is saying about Ian does not apply when she quotes what I am saying. So what makes you surmise she is telling the truth?
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Nosir Myzing;
And to think I thought you were talking about me! :oops: :pals:
Well, if Ian didn't ask the correct questions maybe the absolute and firm answers I received to those questions will put your mind at rest. Tammy makes several hard and factual statement concerning this nan don business.
from: Tammy Chance (Tammy.Chance@3abn.org)
Hi Sam,
No I don't mind answering a few more questions but after looking at them, must say, someone is definitely "not getting it". I refer to the nan _ don stuff. Will try to answer as specific as I can.
F. Notice Tammy falls short of telling who had it between nan_don and 3ABN Store. They just had, ”someone”. Why not settle this by telling us where all that feedback is?
A. There was no one selling for 3abn called nan _don. Good heavens look at the link that you sent me that goes to nan _ don feedback and look at some of the items they were selling!! There were nude posters or pin ups or something of that nature. That ought to tell anybody that it wasn't from anyone connected to 3abn! Also nan whoever may have started in 98 but that has nothing to do with us. 3abn started using ebay in 01. I'LL SAY IT ONCE AGAIN SAM, NAN_DON AND THEIR FEEDBACK WAS NOT ASSOCIATED WITH 3ABN PAST, PRESENT OR FUTURE.
F. If 3ABN sales started selling in 1998,
A. Ask and answered. 3abn did not start in 98.
F. My strongest questions are; “Where is all that feedback? Where did that money go? Whose account received the money?”
A. Well, you would have to ask nan_don since we are in no way connected.
F. Another thing to look at is the store that Tammy Shelton Chance used to have and closed.
A. I have NEVER and DO NOT NOW have an ebay store. I have my own personal ebay account where I sell odds and ends like anyone else but have never had my own store and don't plan on it in the future. Someone is feeding you very faulty information or at the very least, mistaken information.
In addition I fail to see why anyone would care if I personally did or did not have a store or sell on ebay. My personal ebay practices have no connection to 3abn and would actually be nobody's business. I do not mean that in a hateful way, but I just can't imagine why anybody would be interested in something so minute.
Please share this information with your "source" as we are finished repeating that nan_don had no association with 3abn. I know this since I have past and present 3abn ebay records.
Sam, I do appreciate you coming to me for answers instead of speculating and guessing as so many others do.
Tammy C.
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Has anyone asked about a donated professional Nikon camera and peripherals? Its value? Who got it? For how much?
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Guess I will be back before the week end!
Ian;
I have never addressed you by your real name, I have also replied to you in what ever name you are using at the given moment. I have respected your privacy. I see that 3ABN is sharing my information with you about me and Artiste. Please make all comments from/about me as Fran. I would suggest you pay Artiste the same respect! I will not retaliate and out your name and location. To wrongs have never made a right.
Therefore, I would respectfully ask that you refrain using anything but Fran.
Thanks.
Your sister in Christ.
Others. I have easy responses for Tammy's comments. I find them very telling!
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Posted by Sam
Well, if Ian didn't ask the correct questions maybe the absolute and firm answers I received to those questions will put your mind at rest. Tammy makes several hard and factual statements concerning this nan_don business.
Tammy's response:
Hi Sam,
No, I don't mind answering a few more questions, but after looking at them, (I) must say, someone is definitely "not getting it". I refer to the nan_don stuff. (I) will try to answer as specific(ally) as I can.
Continuing …
Letters and/or punctuation in () was inserted by Fran to make fragmented phrases into complete sentences.
F. Notice Tammy falls short of telling who had it between nan_don and 3ABN Store. They just had,”someone”. Why not settle this by telling us where all that feedback is?
A. There was no one selling for 3abn called nan_don. Good heavens look at the link that you sent me that goes to nan_don feedback and look at some of the items they were selling!! There were nude posters or pin ups or something of that nature. That ought to tell anybody that it wasn't from anyone connected to 3abn! Also nan(_don) whoever may have started in 98(,) but that has nothing to do with us. 3abn started using eBay in 01. I'LL SAY IT ONCE AGAIN SAM, NAN_DON AND THEIR FEEDBACK WAS NOT ASSOCIATED WITH 3ABN PAST, PRESENT OR FUTURE.
Continuing …
This answer has nothing to do with my question, again! My source, a past 3ABN employee and my past purchase, says 3ABN was selling in 1998. How else would I know that Trent and Bruce were selling before Tammy came in and created the store?
from Tammy's response to Sam on 6/5/2008: Nan_don had nothing whatsoever to do with 3 Angels. Someone entirely different. I won't go into answering the rest of the questions you sent pertaining to nan_don since it is a moot point.
This information above clearly shows me there is something/someone before the store. Why do they need to hide it? I do believe nan_don did have something to do with 3ABN. However, I will leave that for eBay to confirm.
I made a purchase of the “Pie Birds” sold by nan_don. Yes, they “now” sell some nudity. They have much more now than before. The question still remains; where is the feedback for 3ABN sales that occurred BEFORE the creation of the store? Tammy says she has it. Why will she not share that info? Forget about nan_don. We want truthful answers about 3ABN.
Nan_don have the opposite problem of 3ABN. They, nan_don, have feedback that does not belong to them. Whereas, 3ABN has missing feedback. I find that fact very interesting.
F. If 3ABN sales started selling in 1998,
A. Ask and answered. 3abn did not start in 98.
Continuing …
Next obvious question: What is the exact date? I need to see if that matches my purchases. Is Tammy speaking about the store or just plain eBay sales?
F. My strongest questions are; “Where is all that feedback? Where did that money go? Whose account received the money?”
A. Well, you would have to ask nan_don since we are in no way connected.
Continuing …
I am looking for answers from 3ABN. I already know about nan_don! Tell me about 3ABN. I repeat, “Where is all that feedback? Where did that money go? Whose account received the money?” Answer these questions about 3ABN sales before the store opened.
F. Another thing to look at is the store that Tammy Shelton Chance used to have and closed.
A. I have NEVER and DO NOT NOW have an eBay store. I have my own personal eBay account where I sell odds and ends like anyone else but have never had my own store and don't plan on it in the future. Someone is feeding you very faulty information or at the very least, mistaken information.
Continuing …
I am sure Tammy is having a memory loss. I will try to get permission to post the document print out that tells the name of Tammy’s store. I made a purchase from 812worden and on the print out the name of her store was right there. It said “Would you like to see items listed in my store?”
In addition I fail to see why anyone would care if I personally did or did not have a store or sell on eBay. My personal eBay practices have no connection to 3ABN and would actually be no body's business. I do not mean that in a hateful way, but I just can't imagine why anybody would be interested in something so minute.
Continuing …
The 3ABN Store had an item that I dearly wanted! I accidentally missed the time to place a bid. However, it did not sell at the 3ABN store. They did not re-list it. So I created a search looking for this specific item.
The search brought up only one of this item. It was the very same item that was on the 3ABN Store, on 812worden. The pics were the same, and the description was the same. There was only one difference, the price. I made a purchase from 812worden. I bought it for less than the 3ABN Store was asking for the same item! Tammy Shelton-Chance got the money for the sale.
Then there is the question about the 2 Celeron media editing computers that 812worden sold. The description stated that they could not handle large media editing/graphic tasks.
Please share this information with your "source" as we are finished repeating that nan_don had no association with 3abn. I know this since I have past and present 3ABN eBay records.
Sam, I do appreciate you coming to me for answers instead of speculating and guessing as so many others do.
Continuing …
Sam & Tammy;
Thank you so much for your information. If I can get the other questions about 3ABN answered, I will go away once I can read the feedback that was there BEFORE the store name changed. Yes, it did change. Maybe Tammy was not aware of the changes, but it did happen. I watched it all. The name changed and the feedback was disappearing right before my eyes.
The name changing stopped once I posted that it was happening. Yes, the names did change! I was checking the store everyday at the time. Who could have done that? Tammy says she didn't do it, so we need to look elsewhere. Do either of you have any ideas?
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Hello Fran. I have a question for you please. How in the world did you manage to get the e-bay ID of Tammy Shelton? Isn't this personal information? Surely e-bay doesn't give this kind of information out. I'd like to know your source please.
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Hello Fran. I have a question for you please. How in the world did you manage to get the e-bay ID of Tammy Shelton? Isn't this personal information? Surely e-bay doesn't give this kind of information out. I'd like to know your source please.
Oh yes they can. I have had ebay give out my home phone to a ebay bidder. Not sure where Fran obtained it,but not hard to do
Bonnie
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Hello Fran. I have a question for you please. How in the world did you manage to get the e-bay ID of Tammy Shelton? Isn't this personal information? Surely e-bay doesn't give this kind of information out. I'd like to know your source please.
Tammy Chance
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Could it be time to subpoena some Ebay records?
Sam & Tammy;
Thank you so much for your information. If I can get the other questions about 3ABN answered, I will go away once I can read the feedback that was there BEFORE the store name changed. Yes, it did change. Maybe Tammy was not aware of the changes, but it did happen. I watched it all. The name changed and the feedback was disappearing right before my eyes.
The name changing stopped once I posted that it was happening. Yes, the names did change! I was checking the store everyday at the time. Who could have done that? Tammy says she didn't do it, so we need to look elsewhere. Do either of you have any ideas?
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Fran, why don't you go ahead and email Mrs. Chance. I'm sure she would be happy to answer any of your questions.
http://www.3abn.org/contact_email.cfm
Click on the above link and then write in the box that you would like to have Mrs. Chance contact you. I am sure someone there can let her know and she would contact you at your email address.
Be sure to let us know what she says.
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Fran, why don't you go ahead and email Mrs. Chance. I'm sure she would be happy to answer any of your questions.
http://www.3abn.org/contact_email.cfm
Click on the above link and then write in the box that you would like to have Mrs. Chance contact you. I am sure someone there can let her know and she would contact you at your email address.
Be sure to let us know what she says.
Junebug;
I have no reason to contact Tammy. Proof comes from what eBay says, not from what Tammy or I say. They know the facts. I am just asking questions about a few things I do know. The answers I have read aren't exactly what I needed to know. Tammy could contact me; she knows who I am and how to contact me. However, I would rather she respond right here at AT.
Donna;
Just because you, and several of other people you know, worked for big companies that did not enforce separation of duties, does not mean that it was proper or correct! Business owners listen up. If you do not put separation of duties into your procedures, you are setting yourself up to be cheated! If you leave loopholes, I will guarantee that they will get used to the fullest extent!
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Really Fran? You have no reason to contact Mrs. Chance? But you have been accusing her on this thread. I think you do her a disservice if you do not contact her. I would expect you would do the Christian thing and contact her to get the truth. If you don't, then I question the accusations you have proclaimed on this thread.
I still would like my question answered how you got the ebay ID of Tammy Chance: 812worden ?
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I still would like my question answered how you got the eBay ID of Tammy Chance: 812worden ?
I have been told I am not allowed to tell how I found the user id's of all the sellers I am aware of. The IRS has implemented my technique into their cases involving eBay. They have told me some things I am not allowed to talk about. I am sorry I can't help you.
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I still would like my question answered how you got the eBay ID of Tammy Chance: 812worden ?
I have been told I am not allowed to tell how I found the user id's of all the sellers I am aware of. The IRS has implemented my technique into their cases involving eBay. They have told me some things I am not allowed to talk about. I am sorry I can't help you.
I still would like my question answered how you got the eBay ID of Tammy Chance: 812worden ?
I have been told I am not allowed to tell how I found the user id's of all the sellers I am aware of. The IRS has implemented my technique into their cases involving eBay. They have told me some things I am not allowed to talk about. I am sorry I can't help you.
And...I am on my way to Roswell NM to contact UFO's. Fran you have to be kidding on several counts.
1. If you were in any way working with the IRS on anything it would be strictly confidential. As in, you couldn't even say that you are not allowed to tell how you find an ebay users ID.
2. If you really can hack into ID's I believe Ebay needs to know ASAP. No telling what a person could do with that information. They may be able to buy or sell illegally using someone else's ID or hack into their paypal accounts and withdraw money.... the list is endless. Fran, if you truly have this information, you are potentially a dangerous person whose methods and motives should be under close scrutiny.
This leads to motives. Why would you have been trying to hack ID's to the point that you figured out a system to succeed? For what purpose? I can't see any kind of good motive for trying something like this. THis is just the start of many questions that need to be ask and answered by you Fran.
If you can hack into ebay ID's when security is so tight (and it is) what else have you been able to access illegally? And yes, I believe hacking into ID's would be illegal. In fact, I will email ebay and see what they say about it.
3. You said that Tammy C knows you. How so? Why would she? I have also read where you say the same thing about DannyS. Again, out of thousands of people they have contact with, do business with, answer emails to.... please state specifically how they could possibly know you or anything about you.
I will let you all know what ebay says about hacking into ID's.
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I will let you all know what ebay says about hacking into ID's.
Sam
Are you delusional again? :oops:
Where did you ever get such ideas that Fran 'hacked' into anything? I can't see any evidence to suggest such a thing. Making such an accusation leaves you wide open to charges for libel etc. You need to mind your mouth and the fingers that type these fantasies. :rabbit:
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Posted by Junebug:
I still would like my question answered how you got the eBay ID of Tammy Chance: 812worden ?
I have been told I am not allowed to tell how I found the user id's of all the sellers I am aware of. The IRS has implemented my technique into their cases involving eBay. They have told me some things I am not allowed to talk about. I am sorry I can't help you.
And...I am on my way to Roswell NM to contact UFOs. Fran you have to be kidding on several counts.
1. If you were in any way working with the IRS on anything it would be strictly confidential. As in, you couldn't even say that you are not allowed to tell how you find an eBay users ID.
2. If you really can hack into IDs I believe EBay needs to know ASAP. No telling what a person could do with that information. They may be able to buy or sell illegally using someone else's ID or hack into their paypal accounts and withdraw money.... the list is endless. Fran, if you truly have this information, you are potentially a dangerous person whose methods and motives should be under close scrutiny.
This leads to motives. Why would you have been trying to hack IDs to the point that you figured out a system to succeed? For what purpose? I can't see any kind of good motive for trying something like this. This is just the start of many questions that need to be ask and answered by you Fran.
If you can hack into eBay IDs when security is so tight (and it is) what else have you been able to access illegally? And yes, I believe hacking into IDs would be illegal. In fact, I will email eBay and see what they say about it.
3. You said that Tammy C knows you. How so? Why would she? I have also read where you say the same thing about Danny S. Again, out of thousands of people they have contact with, do business with, answer emails to.... please state specifically how they could possibly know you or anything about you.
I will let you all know what eBay says about hacking into IDs.
And...I am on my way to Roswell NM to contact UFOs. Fran you have to be kidding on several counts.
1. If you were in any way working with the IRS on anything it would be strictly confidential. As in, you couldn't even say that you are not allowed to tell how you find an eBay users ID.
Sam;
If you are on your way to Roswell, NM, you are heading in the wrong direction. If you are of the opinion I am just "kidding on several counts," that is OK. I am nobody, and I am not trying to destroy 3ABN. That is a fact.
I have no clue what the IRS is doing. I just know they are doing. I believe everybody knows that.
2. If you really can hack into IDs I believe eBay needs to know ASAP. No telling what a person could do with that information. They may be able to buy or sell illegally using someone else's ID or hack into their paypal accounts and withdraw money.... the list is endless. Fran, if you truly have this information, you are potentially a dangerous person whose methods and motives should be under close scrutiny.
This leads to motives. Why would you have been trying to hack IDs to the point that you figured out a system to succeed? For what purpose? I can't see any kind of good motive for trying something like this. This is just the start of many questions that need to be ask and answered by you Fran.
If you can hack into eBay IDs when security is so tight (and it is) what else have you been able to access illegally? And yes, I believe hacking into IDs would be illegal. In fact, I will email eBay and see what they say about it.
Sam;
Boy, this is a funny one! Wow! Do you have an eBay account? If you do, you know this is impossible! Get real! My motives are pure. I am looking for feedback for 3ABN sales before the store opened. Pure and simple.
Why is it people falsely accuse other? Many times it is because they themselves are hacking. My computer has been hacked and destroyed several times. I have been under surveillance. I have had people peeping into my windows. My phone has been tapped. My email has been hacked. I have never done any of those things.
I believe I have hit a point of contention with you. Why are you saying these things about me? This is entirely what someone from 3ABN has done to me. Is this a case of transference? I believe so.
3. You said that Tammy C knows you. How so? Why would she? I have also read where you say the same thing about Danny S. Again, out of thousands of people they have contact with, do business with, answer emails to.... please state specifically how they could possibly know you or anything about you.
I will let you all know what eBay says about hacking into IDs.
This is some serious phishing here! Take my word for it, they are well aware of who and where I am. What have I said that has you guys so riled? Did I speak the truth?
I think that is the case.
By the way, I saw Bruce & Tammy Chance on 3ABN asking people to bring their donations to the 3ABN Booth at the upcoming ASI Convention. If you donate. Please get an IRS form from 3ABN stating the description of the item. These forms should be numbered to make sure all numbers are accounted for at the end of the week end. This is called a control number.
3ABN is not allowed to appraise the value of anything for the donor. It is the donors responsibility to asses the value of the item/s donated. 3ABN should keep 2 copy of what they give you and put it with your donation, and the other goes to accounting.
I have to say the "Damage Control" is alive and well.
3ABN should be advised by their CFO as to what happens once ASI is over. It would be nice to hear how they handle the entry of the asset and the sale of the asset. Since they have created a "Donation Center" I wonder if they properly appraise the value of these assets. 3ABN has had a serious problem assessing the value of assets. Have they changed, or is it the same old way as before, but just under a new name.
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The fact of the matter is this - there is no legal way for you to secure private information (name, phone number, email address outside of those used in the eBay environment). You are claiming to have secured personal identification and sharing that with the IRS and giving them a way to connect user ID's with personal identities. You also have connected an eBay user ID with a personal identity which is a clear violation of the eBay rules:
http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/everyone-ov.html
Rules about identity
Member identity is a building block of the eBay Community. eBay treats member identity with great respect. eBay expects Community members to treat member identity with the same level of respect.
eBay members:
*Must be at least 18 years old.
*Cannot misrepresent their identities.
*Must always provide valid and complete contact information and must always have a valid email address.
*Cannot publish the contact information of other members in an online public area.
*Must choose their User ID according to eBay rules.
Publishing contact information of another eBay member in any online public area is not permitted. If you experience a violation of this policy, please report it using the Customer Support link at the bottom of this page. When reporting, please be sure to send a copy of the post with the subject line.
Violation of this policy may result in a range of actions, including:
*Listing cancellation
*Limits on account privileges
*Account suspension
*Forfeit of eBay fees on cancelled (sic) listings
*Loss of PowerSeller status
And according the site, the only reasons that eBay would share personal information:
We may disclose personal information to respond to legal requirements, enforce our policies, respond to claims that a listing or other content violates the rights of others, or protect anyone's rights, property, or safety.
So how are you gaining access to identity information that allows you to connect user ID's with personal identities? It would seem that there is no other way unless it is illegal. Now, if it is illegal, that would make it a Federal crime under the developing laws surrounding cyber-crimes. After carefully reading the eBay privacy policy and the rules about Rules about general member conduct I do not see any legal way for you to have arrived at a connection between a user ID and a personal identity . . . certainly eBay would not help you do that as it would put them in a major legal bind. eBay has built its reputation on protecting user information including facilitating any disagreements between sellers and buyers. I queried a friend who has a relative who does a large amount of activity on eBay and their response was:
I talked with [him] about how eBay works. He deals with them all the time (buying and selling) and he said they NEVER give out any personal information. He said eBay themselves are the "go-between" if there are problems. I asked him if they give out email addresses and he said NO! People will email each other from eBay and I don't know how they do it, but he said eBay is very tight on how they run.
As a side note, it is interesting that you continue to paint yourself as a nobody and yet claim that the Chance's know you, know where you are, that you have been the subject of all kinds of surveillance and trespass of personal property, you proudly toot your own horn whenever you can claiming to be the reason the IRS even began to take a look at 3ABN, and now, the powerful IRS is using the "techniques" of a "nobody" who found some way to circumvent eBay's security in order to connect user ID's with personal identities.
When eBay responds to my direct inquiry, in which I included your claim to have helped the IRS connect user ID's with personal identities (verbatim), I will let you know.
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The fact of the matter is this - there is no legal way for you to secure private information (name, phone number, email address outside of those used in the eBay environment). You are claiming to have secured personal identification and sharing that with the IRS and giving them a way to connect user ID's with personal identities. You also have connected an eBay user ID with a personal identity which is a clear violation of the eBay rules:
Interesting statement, anyman.
You (or any other of your people behind this username) wouldn't have ever initiated any of this type of securing of private information on others yourselves, would you have?
-
The fact of the matter is this - there is no legal way for you to secure private information (name, phone number, email address outside of those used in the eBay environment). You are claiming to have secured personal identification and sharing that with the IRS and giving them a way to connect user IDs with personal identities. You also have connected an eBay user ID with a personal identity which is a clear violation of the eBay rules:
http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/everyone-ov.html
Rules about identity
Member identity is a building block of the eBay Community. eBay treats member identity with great respect. eBay expects Community members to treat member identity with the same level of respect.
eBay members:
*Must be at least 18 years old.
*Cannot misrepresent their identities.
*Must always provide valid and complete contact information and must always have a valid email address.
*Cannot publish the contact information of other members in an online public area.
*Must choose their User ID according to eBay rules.
Publishing contact information of another eBay member in any online public area is not permitted. If you experience a violation of this policy, please report it using the Customer Support link at the bottom of this page. When reporting, please be sure to send a copy of the post with the subject line.
Violation of this policy may result in a range of actions, including:
*Listing cancellation
*Limits on account privileges
*Account suspension
*Forfeit of eBay fees on cancelled (sic) listings
*Loss of PowerSeller status
And according the site, the only reasons that eBay would share personal information:
We may disclose personal information to respond to legal requirements, enforce our policies, respond to claims that a listing or other content violates the rights of others, or protect any one's rights, property, or safety.
So how are you gaining access to identity information that allows you to connect user IDs with personal identities? It would seem that there is no other way unless it is illegal. Now, if it is illegal, that would make it a Federal crime under the developing laws surrounding cyber-crimes. After carefully reading the eBay privacy policy and the rules about Rules about general member conduct I do not see any legal way for you to have arrived at a connection between a user ID and a personal identity . . . certainly eBay would not help you do that as it would put them in a major legal bind. eBay has built its reputation on protecting user information including facilitating any disagreements between sellers and buyers. I queried a friend who has a relative who does a large amount of activity on eBay and their response was:
I talked with [him] about how eBay works. He deals with them all the time (buying and selling) and he said they NEVER give out any personal information. He said eBay themselves are the "go-between" if there are problems. I asked him if they give out email addresses and he said NO! People will email each other from eBay and I don't know how they do it, but he said eBay is very tight on how they run.
As a side note, it is interesting that you continue to paint yourself as a nobody and yet claim that the Chance's know you, know where you are, that you have been the subject of all kinds of surveillance and trespass of personal property, you proudly toot your own horn whenever you can claiming to be the reason the IRS even began to take a look at 3ABN, and now, the powerful IRS is using the "techniques" of a "nobody" who found some way to circumvent eBay's security in order to connect user IDs with personal identities.
When eBay responds to my direct inquiry, in which I included your claim to have helped the IRS connect user IDs with personal identities (verbatim), I will let you know.
I have done nothing illegal. I have not given any information that was not given to me! It will be nice talking to eBay. Will I tell them how I got my information? No. However, I have really hit a nerve haven't I. What is there to worry about? Could it be those 2 Celeron Computers I was talking about? I believe it is time to return to replying to the policies & procedures that Tammy outlined so completely.
I will be waiting to hear from eBay. This is going to be really fun. By the way. Tammy gave her contact information in previous posts by her and Junebug. I never did. :oops:
I think you have me mistaken. I do not commit cyber crime. I stop it.
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Interesting statement, anyman.
You (or any other of your people behind this username) wouldn't have ever initiated any of this type of securing of private information on others yourselves, would you have?
I really hate to be disappointing so many of you, but no, I haven't. Any information I have garnered has come from publications readily available on line, from professional medical boards, listings of grant/investment activities, and just plain 411.com and the admissions of those writing. There has been no need to sink to levels of illegality. So sorry to disappoint you, but it's up to you . . . believe it or not . . . I am not going to try to convince you. As far as your dastardly insinuation that there is more than one person posting under this user name - again, you couldn't be more wrong, just me, one "anyman" . . .
Now, how about dealing with the conversation as it is evolving instead of trying to play the distraction/redirection game?
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I have done nothing illegal. I have not given any information that was not given to me! It will be nice talking to eBay. Will I tell them how I got my information? No. However, I have really hit a nerve haven't I. What is there to worry about? Could it be those 2 Celeron Computers I was talking about? I believe it is time to return to replying to the policies & procedures that Tammy outlined so completely.
I will be waiting to hear from eBay. This is going to be really fun. By the way. Tammy gave her contact information in previous posts by her and Junebug. I never did. :oops:
I think you have me mistaken. I do not commit cyber crime. I stop it.
You know, at first I was going to say, "No you haven't." but thought it through a little bit more and realized that the answer is "Yes." but not in the way >you would like< it to be. The nerve is that you are given to devious methods of gaining information, much like your leaders and that is rather appalling.
No "opps" involved as Junebug gave contact information for Tammy Chance - you are the one who connected the information to Tammy Chances eBay ID when you gave that information out. You knew you were doing that, it wasn't an accident and certainly isn't Junebug's fault in any way, shape or form.
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Interesting statement, anyman.
You (or any other of your people behind this username) wouldn't have ever initiated any of this type of securing of private information on others yourselves, would you have?
I really hate to be disappointing so many of you, but no, I haven't. Any information I have garnered has come from publications readily available on line, from professional medical boards, listings of grant/investment activities, and just plain 411.com and the admissions of those writing. There has been no need to sink to levels of illegality. So sorry to disappoint you, but it's up to you . . . believe it or not . . . I am not going to try to convince you. As far as your dastardly insinuation that there is more than one person posting under this user name - again, you couldn't be more wrong, just me, one "anyman" . . .
Now, how about dealing with the conversation as it is evolving instead of trying to play the distraction/redirection game?
:ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL:
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Interesting statement, anyman.
You (or any other of your people behind this username) wouldn't have ever initiated any of this type of securing of private information on others yourselves, would you have?
I really hate to be disappointing so many of you, but no, I haven't. Any information I have garnered has come from publications readily available on line, from professional medical boards, listings of grant/investment activities, and just plain 411.com and the admissions of those writing. There has been no need to sink to levels of illegality. So sorry to disappoint you, but it's up to you . . . believe it or not . . . I am not going to try to convince you. As far as your dastardly insinuation that there is more than one person posting under this user name - again, you couldn't be more wrong, just me, one "anyman" . . .
Now, how about dealing with the conversation as it is evolving instead of trying to play the distraction/redirection game?
As for the "dastardly insinuation", there have been several that have noted a recent change in ways of wording sentences, grammer, etc.
As for the rest of the information you have been garnering, you and/or those in your employ must have been busy...glad you think we are so important. :)
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You know, at first I was going to say, "No you haven't." but thought it through a little bit more and realized that the answer is "Yes." but not in the way >you would like< it to be. The nerve is that you are given to devious methods of gaining information, much like your leaders and that is rather appalling.
Another interesting observation, anyman. You are sure this is not transference on your part, as Fran was referring to?
Are you saying that Garwin McNeilus never helped 3ABN leaders put wiretaps on people?
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Artiste, I was rather surprised at the following three Replies that were made to anyman today...
The fact of the matter is this - there is no legal way for you to secure private information (name, phone number, email address outside of those used in the eBay environment). You are claiming to have secured personal identification and sharing that with the IRS and giving them a way to connect user ID's with personal identities. You also have connected an eBay user ID with a personal identity which is a clear violation of the eBay rules:
Interesting statement, anyman.
You (or any other of your people behind this username) wouldn't have ever initiated any of this type of securing of private information on others yourselves, would you have?
You know, at first I was going to say, "No you haven't." but thought it through a little bit more and realized that the answer is "Yes." but not in the way >you would like< it to be. The nerve is that you are given to devious methods of gaining information, much like your leaders and that is rather appalling.
Another interesting observation, anyman. You are sure this is not transference on your part, as Fran was referring to?
Are you saying that Garwin McNeilus never helped 3ABN leaders put wiretaps on people?
Interesting statement, anyman.
You (or any other of your people behind this username) wouldn't have ever initiated any of this type of securing of private information on others yourselves, would you have?
I really hate to be disappointing so many of you, but no, I haven't. Any information I have garnered has come from publications readily available on line, from professional medical boards, listings of grant/investment activities, and just plain 411.com and the admissions of those writing. There has been no need to sink to levels of illegality. So sorry to disappoint you, but it's up to you . . . believe it or not . . . I am not going to try to convince you. As far as your dastardly insinuation that there is more than one person posting under this user name - again, you couldn't be more wrong, just me, one "anyman" . . .
Now, how about dealing with the conversation as it is evolving instead of trying to play the distraction/redirection game?
As for the "dastardly insinuation", there have been several that have noted a recent change in ways of wording sentences, grammer, etc.
As for the rest of the information you have been garnering, you and/or those in your employ must have been busy...glad you think we are so important. :)
Artiste, I am bringing the following quote to you in your position as Artiste, the member, and not as Artiste, the moderator. Please be clear that I am not breaking the rule about discussing moderator actions. What you have said to anyman in the three posts I have quoted above clearly appear to be indirectly inferring that anyman is someone, Garwin or Danny perhaps, who has ordered surveilance. Just want to remind you of a decree that was posted about a week ago and caused Sam to receive a time out:
ADMIN HAT ON
WARNING: There will be no references to member's identities, either directly or indirectly, on the Forum.
ADMIN HAT OFF
ADMIN NOTE: Sam is now under a 48 hour Posting Ban for the above action. Any further infraction of the same type by Sam will result in an immediate 7 day ban for him.
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The fact of the matter is this - there is no legal way for you to secure private information (name, phone number, email address outside of those used in the eBay environment). You are claiming to have secured personal identification and sharing that with the IRS and giving them a way to connect user IDs with personal identities. You also have connected an eBay user ID with a personal identity which is a clear violation of the eBay rules:
http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/everyone-ov.html
Rules about identity
Member identity is a building block of the eBay Community. eBay treats member identity with great respect. eBay expects Community members to treat member identity with the same level of respect.
eBay members:
*Must be at least 18 years old.
*Cannot misrepresent their identities.
*Must always provide valid and complete contact information and must always have a valid email address.
*Cannot publish the contact information of other members in an online public area.
*Must choose their User ID according to eBay rules.
Publishing contact information of another eBay member in any online public area is not permitted. If you experience a violation of this policy, please report it using the Customer Support link at the bottom of this page. When reporting, please be sure to send a copy of the post with the subject line.
Violation of this policy may result in a range of actions, including:
*Listing cancellation
*Limits on account privileges
*Account suspension
*Forfeit of eBay fees on cancelled (sic) listings
*Loss of PowerSeller status
And according the site, the only reasons that eBay would share personal information:
We may disclose personal information to respond to legal requirements, enforce our policies, respond to claims that a listing or other content violates the rights of others, or protect any one's rights, property, or safety.
So how are you gaining access to identity information that allows you to connect user IDs with personal identities? It would seem that there is no other way unless it is illegal. Now, if it is illegal, that would make it a Federal crime under the developing laws surrounding cyber-crimes. After carefully reading the eBay privacy policy and the rules about Rules about general member conduct I do not see any legal way for you to have arrived at a connection between a user ID and a personal identity . . . certainly eBay would not help you do that as it would put them in a major legal bind. eBay has built its reputation on protecting user information including facilitating any disagreements between sellers and buyers. I queried a friend who has a relative who does a large amount of activity on eBay and their response was:
I talked with [him] about how eBay works. He deals with them all the time (buying and selling) and he said they NEVER give out any personal information. He said eBay themselves are the "go-between" if there are problems. I asked him if they give out email addresses and he said NO! People will email each other from eBay and I don't know how they do it, but he said eBay is very tight on how they run.
As a side note, it is interesting that you continue to paint yourself as a nobody and yet claim that the Chance's know you, know where you are, that you have been the subject of all kinds of surveillance and trespass of personal property, you proudly toot your own horn whenever you can claiming to be the reason the IRS even began to take a look at 3ABN, and now, the powerful IRS is using the "techniques" of a "nobody" who found some way to circumvent eBay's security in order to connect user IDs with personal identities.
When eBay responds to my direct inquiry, in which I included your claim to have helped the IRS connect user IDs with personal identities (verbatim), I will let you know.
I have done nothing illegal. I have not given any information that was not given to me! It will be nice talking to eBay. Will I tell them how I got my information? No. However, I have really hit a nerve haven't I. What is there to worry about? Could it be those 2 Celeron Computers I was talking about? I believe it is time to return to replying to the policies & procedures that Tammy outlined so completely.
I will be waiting to hear from eBay. This is going to be really fun. By the way. Tammy gave her contact information in previous posts by her and Junebug. I never did. :oops:
I think you have me mistaken. I do not commit cyber crime. I stop it.
Yes Fran you have hit a nerve but not the one you think you have hit. The point is not about Tammy C and her personal ebay account it is about knowing (as anyman posted them) ebay's rules and regulations and the security they have in place so that no one can get personal information about an ebay member. And yet, you have personal information. Doesn't matter who it's on...it's the fact that were able to get secure information. Now you can spin all you want, but I agree with anyman. There is no way that you could obtain that kind of information legally. No way. I'm glad you will have fun talking to ebay because after this, I can guarantee there will be plenty of ebay users worried that their accounts can be hacked into and possibly even their identities stolen.
No matter how much you twist and turn this and try to bring it back to 3abn, the fact is, this subject has nothing to do with 3abn and everything to do with you possibly being involved in illegal practices that constitute a federal crime.
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What you have said to anyman in the three posts I have quoted above clearly appear to be indirectly inferring that anyman is someone, Garwin or Danny perhaps, who has ordered surveilance.
I didn't catch that. Are you sure?
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What you have said to anyman in the three posts I have quoted above clearly appear to be indirectly inferring that anyman is someone, Garwin or Danny perhaps, who has ordered surveilance.
I didn't catch that. Are you sure?
Is that what GrandmaNettie is saying? :scratch:
I thought she would be more careful than that. :dunno:
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Artiste, I am bringing the following quote to you in your position as Artiste, the member, and not as Artiste, the moderator. Please be clear that I am not breaking the rule about discussing moderator actions. What you have said to anyman in the three posts I have quoted above clearly appear to be indirectly inferring that anyman is someone, Garwin or Danny perhaps, who has ordered surveilance.
GrandmaNettie,
Speaking to you as a member, I will have to say that you are entirely wrong in your suppositions.
But, in any case, it is nice that you are here to defend anyman.
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Why is no one speaking back about the 3ABN eBay?
Could it be they want me to shut up before others reading catch on. There are other sellers besides 812worden. There are stores (more than one).
Why has there been no response about the 2 Celeron Computers that 812worden sold. They were not the type that was needed to edit media graphics. What about those video duplicators that also sold because of upgrading to new equipment?
I would like to know about these items that sold, plus where all the eBay sales feedback is being hidden. Why all the silence?
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I was accused of giving out contact information to 812worden. All I did was point out it was Tammy Shelton-Chance's eBay account. I never gave out the contact email either. The contact is trent_bob@.......
Now, how are they still involved? Hum.
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Some of us are still reading your posts, Fran. Also waiting for the same answers you are waiting for.
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I am also reading them and waiting.
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I was accused of giving out contact information to 812worden. All I did was point out it was Tammy Shelton-Chance's eBay account. I never gave out the contact email either. The contact is trent_bob@.......
Now, how are they still involved? Hum.
No. :( You accused of giving out Tammy Chance ebay user id. Because you did that. You asked to tell how you got it because you claim is technique government got from you to use on ebay too.
Now you hinting at contact information.
Sera
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I am also reading them and waiting.
What you waiting on? Who you waiting on? Will answers come to forum when not asked?
Fran claim she have contact info. Fran claim all know her. Tammy chance know her. 3ABN know her. That what Fran say. Fran claim she have questions. Why Fran not go ask them?
Christians should not be saying bad things about people they don't try to talk to. Is not right.
Sera
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Why is no one speaking back about the 3ABN eBay?
Could it be they want me to shut up before others reading catch on. There are other sellers besides 812worden. There are stores (more than one).
Why has there been no response about the 2 Celeron Computers that 812worden sold. They were not the type that was needed to edit media graphics. What about those video duplicators that also sold because of upgrading to new equipment?
I would like to know about these items that sold, plus where all the eBay sales feedback is being hidden. Why all the silence?
Fran, the whole eBay thing is a little confusing to me...maybe because of the complicated reasoning and symbols we have to follow.
Are you saying that 812worden (Tammy Chance) was selling 3ABN property (paid for by donors) on eBay possibly for her own benefit, and there may be others who have done the same?
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Sera,
Your anguish about the unrighteousness that goes on in this forum brings tears to my eyes. Are you as anguished about the unrighteous acts committed by Danny Shelton and his familia? I have to say, hiring NINE attorneys to defend him looks to me like he has SOMETHING BIG to hide. What do you think?
Eduard
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Sera,
Your anguish about the unrighteousness that goes on in this forum brings tears to my eyes. Are you as anguished about the unrighteous acts committed by Danny Shelton and his familia? I have to say, hiring NINE attorneys to defend him looks to me like he has SOMETHING BIG to hide. What do you think?
Still weeping,
Eduard
I think you copy Bob Pickle and be weeping. He say that.
Is not nine.
You know Danny Shelton? You know Shelton family? You talk to them? You listen to them?
Sera
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From reading posts from BSDA and from AT all I can surmise is that there are many folk who are close in touch with the Shelton family including the extended families who post incognito for very good reasons.
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Sera,
Did he retain SEVEN attorneys against two amateurs? Anyone who retains SEVEN ATTTORNEYS to defend him in a lawsuit like this must be hiding SOMETHING BIG! Seven attorneys cost an awwwwwwwwwwful lot of money. Where does Danny Shelton take the money to pay all these attorneys? From his mama?
Eduard
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First it was 4 from Minnesota + 2 in Massachusetts.
Then last fall I think they got 2 more to meddle in Gailon's bankruptcy.
Greg Simpson is the 5th from Minnesota, who is supposed to replace Jerrie Hayes, but Jerrie Hayes has not withdrawn yet that I know of.
Now we have 2 more from Illinois.
4 (MN) + 2 (MA) + 1 (5th from MN) + 2 (IL) = 9.
9 + 2 (MA BK) = 11 if you want to count that way.
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Sera,
Did he retain SEVEN attorneys against two amateurs? Anyone who retains SEVEN ATTTORNEYS to defend him in a lawsuit like this must be hiding SOMETHING BIG! Seven attorneys cost an awwwwwwwwwwful lot of money. Where does Danny Shelton take the money to pay all these attorneys? From his mama?
Eduard
You not know?
Now you say is seven?
Many attorneys not hired.
Law firm hired, they send attorney who better for things and parts against two men 3ABN say slandering them and hurting ministry.
3ABN know they want to be own lawyers?
3ABN say a donor pays, an how much his business.
Donors pay for Bob Pickle and Gailon Joy too.
That not nice joke about mama of Danny Shelton. She sleeping. She waits on Our Lord to come again and wake her up.
Sera
i added question part. :)
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Sera,
When Danny Shelton hires ELEVEN ATTORNEYS to defend him against TWO BROKE AMETEURS, he must have SOMETHING BIG to hide. What is he so DESPERATE to hide that he SERVED SUBPOENAS to all the Discussion Boards around? What is he so DESPERATE to hide that he sent a WHOLE ARMY OF DESPERADOS to every Discussion Board to DISSEMINATE MISINFORMATION, LIE, INTIMIDATE, AND THREATEN PEOPLE?
You say that his mama does not help him with his expenses? But retaining attorneys for YEARS AND YEARS costs an AWFUL LOT OF MONEY. You say that it is a DONOR who pays all these expenses? Maybe it is BILL GATES? Maybe Danny Shelton takes the money from the donations received from 3ABN?
As I said before, to hire ELEVEN ATTORNEYS against TWO BROKE AMATEURS means that he has AN AWFUL LOT TO HIDE. Do you want to tell us what he is SO DESPERATELY trying to hide? I am excited to read your answer!
Eduard
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Huh? Her user id is there for any body searching eBay! Get your facts correct, and get some help with your sentence structure.
Do we know of each other? I'd swear I know who you are.
I am not hinting about the contact info either, it is real. I was nice and did not give the complete email address! eBay gives the complete email address, but since I have been accused of hacking, I thought I would let someone else complete that email address.
I was accused of giving out contact information to 812worden. All I did was point out it was Tammy Shelton-Chance's eBay account. I never gave out the contact email either. The contact is trent_bob@.......
Now, how are they still involved? Hum.
No. :( You accused of giving out Tammy Chance eBay user id. Because you did that. You asked to tell how you got it because you claim is technique government got from you to use on eBay too.
Now you hinting at contact information.
Sera
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Huh? Her user id is there for any body searching eBay! Get your facts correct, and get some help with your sentence structure.
Do we know of each other? I'd swear I know who you are.
I am not hinting about the contact info either, it is real. I was nice and did not give the complete email address! eBay gives the complete email address, but since I have been accused of hacking, I thought I would let someone else complete that email address.
For crying out loud, before you make obtaining this information a federal case, educate yourself as to ebay rules among other things
I have sold on ebay for years,currently am still doing so.
Read please, my information has been given out more than once. You can also obtain phone numbers.
I have had my account hacked as well. The two issues are completely different.
A party stated he sold on ebay to me. When I asked his user ID he said,"I forgot" . I don't use it often so can't remember. It took less than 5 minutes to determine he was lying and find his user ID. Why he lied I have no idea,other than trying to hide his true identity from the forums he belongs to. He was at the time selling and from feedback it was obvious he did so regularly.
Nothing mysterious about it
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Donors pay for Bob Pickle and Gailon Joy too.
Donors to Bob Pickle and Gailon Joy are asked specifically to donate to their legal expenses in defending themselves against 3ABN.
Are donors to 3ABN asked to give their money for legal expenses to sue Bob and Gailon?
And if so, do those "donors" consist of Garwin McNeilus?
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Sera,
Did he retain SEVEN attorneys against two amateurs? Anyone who retains SEVEN ATTTORNEYS to defend him in a lawsuit like this must be hiding SOMETHING BIG! Seven attorneys cost an awwwwwwwwwwful lot of money. Where does Danny Shelton take the money to pay all these attorneys? From his mama?
Eduard
Could you be any more disrespectful? I think it's common knowledge, after all, that his "mama" passed away several years back.
Could you be any more clueless about the use of attorney's. It isn't 3abn's fault that Joy lives in Mass, Pickle in Minn, and 3abn is located in Illinois. There has to be someone in all 3 states to handle what needs to be taken care of in those particular states to minimize travel expenses, attorney time, as well as the courts time. Besides that, every state has different laws so the attorney's in each state have their own part to play to make the full picture. To try and make an overall statement that to hire "all those attorney's" is because someone has something to hide is ridiculous. If I had something to hide the last thing I would do would be to bring a suit against the guy exposing me because then it would all come out in court.
But, if I was innocent and knew that someone was repeating lies about me, then I would take them to court in a heartbeat just like 3abn has done. Remember something else Ed. I'm quite sure you are aware that on bsda before the suit happened, everyone said that 3abn would never sue because they wouldnt want the truth to come out. mmhh Guess they do want the truth out.
Also your picture of big guys beating up the little guys.....well, let's say this: If you are right about that, then why do Pickle and especially Joy have such arrogance on how they are handling their case. They have laughed at how much they know and how little the "real" lawyers know. They have ridiculed, bragged and stated outright that they are going to win. So Ed, evidently they don't feel the same as you do about it.
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I still would like my question answered how you got the eBay ID of Tammy Chance: 812worden ?
I have been told I am not allowed to tell how I found the user id's of all the sellers I am aware of. The IRS has implemented my technique into their cases involving eBay. They have told me some things I am not allowed to talk about. I am sorry I can't help you.
1. If you were in any way working with the IRS on anything it would be strictly confidential. As in, you couldn't even say that you are not allowed to tell how you find an ebay users ID.
How do you know how things are when you're working with the IRS, Sam? Had some experience with that?
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Fran, the whole eBay thing is a little confusing to me...maybe because of the complicated reasoning and symbols we have to follow.
Are you saying that 812worden (Tammy Chance) was selling 3ABN property (paid for by donors) on eBay possibly for her own benefit, and there may be others who have done the same?
Well, Fran?
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Guess they do want the truth out.
Unless you honestly believe that, you just told a bald-faced lie.
If 3ABN wanted the truth to come out, they wouldn't be doing everything possible to hinder discovery.
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"Sam,"
I am not in your gang, so, please, don't call me Ed. Call me by the name I am listed in this forum. And excuse me if I don't have time to use as many words as you did to respond to your message. I believe in NON MULTA, SED MULTUM. Whatever you said about attorney's (sic! - wrong use of apostrophe), doesn't cancel the basic truth:
Did Danny Shelton retain ELEVEN ATTORNEYS AGAINST TWO BROKE AMATEURS? ELEVEN ATTORNEYS!!!!! ELEVEN ATTORNEYS!!! Do you have any vague idea how much each of these attorneys charge per hour? Do you have any idea how much it has cost Danny Shelton to keep these attorneys on his payroll? When people have trouble filling their tanks with gas, Danny Shelton spends HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS on a FRIVOLOUS lawsuit. How can he afford it? Is he a millionaire? Ah, I remember, Sera and others said that the money is donated to him. Even if this is so, shouldn't he, Danny Shelton, God's prophet of our time, spend the donated money WISELY, proclaiming God's message for our time instead of THROWING THE MONEY AWAY defending his damaged beyond repair reputation? Why doesn't he let God take care of his reputation the way Isaiah, Jeremiah, Paul, and other men of the Bible did?
WHAT DOES DANNY SHELTON HAVE TO HIDE THAT HE HIRED AN ARMY OF ATTORNEYS TO PROTECT HIM?
Eduard
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Eduard,
Imagine the implications if Danny is not personally footing half the bill of this stupid lawsuit, a lawsuit that accuses us of falsely accusing Danny of using donations to/assets of 3ABN for his own personal, private use!
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Something to think about:
In this day and age if one does not have money to defend themselves and actually do have a case that can be won there should be no problem finding an attorney. Some attorneys will take such a case because they can get their fees from the settlement. That should tell people why the defendants are pro se?
By the way, the defendants seem to have no problem with taking donors money if they were to win the case.
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No, that isn't something to think about. This is the American system, not the British system.
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Bob,
Sooner or later we are going to find out the origin of those huge sums Danny Shelton will need in order to pay his attorneys untill the end of this lawsuit. I would not be surprised if he breaks the million barrier.
Eduard
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Don't think he already has?
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Bob,
You are more familiar with attorney fees and such. I was just speculating. He might as well. I have heard of some attorneys who charge $ 500 per billable hour. I assume that retainer fees must be higher. I am sure that the money clock moves faster for Danny than his electric meter.
Eduard
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I seem to remember that last summer's computer expert was around $250 and hour when they do forensics.
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"Sam,"
I am not in your gang, so, please, don't call me Ed. Call me by the name I am listed in this forum. And excuse me if I don't have time to use as many words as you did to respond to your message. I believe in NON MULTA, SED MULTUM. Whatever you said about attorney's (sic! - wrong use of apostrophe), doesn't cancel the basic truth:
Did Danny Shelton retain ELEVEN ATTORNEYS AGAINST TWO BROKE AMATEURS? ELEVEN ATTORNEYS!!!!! ELEVEN ATTORNEYS!!! Do you have any vague idea how much each of these attorneys charge per hour? Do you have any idea how much it has cost Danny Shelton to keep these attorneys on his payroll? When people have trouble filling their tanks with gas, Danny Shelton spends HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS on a FRIVOLOUS lawsuit. How can he afford it? Is he a millionaire? Ah, I remember, Sera and others said that the money is donated to him. Even if this is so, shouldn't he, Danny Shelton, God's prophet of our time, spend the donated money WISELY, proclaiming God's message for our time instead of THROWING THE MONEY AWAY defending his damaged beyond repair reputation? Why doesn't he let God take care of his reputation the way Isaiah, Jeremiah, Paul, and other men of the Bible did?
WHAT DOES DANNY SHELTON HAVE TO HIDE THAT HE HIRED AN ARMY OF ATTORNEYS TO PROTECT HIM?
Eduard
Eduard, no need to holler. We can read just fine without the caps.
When someone hires a firm, that firm needs cocounsel in every state where actions occur involving their client.
Bob, which of these attorneys are redundant and why?
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"GrandmaNettie,"
You forgot a few very important things. In the first place attorneys cannot be "redundant" (faulty predication), but their activities can overlap. In the second place, those attorneys are not paid by the bunch. EACH OF THEM IS PAID A FORTUNE, INDIVIDUALLY! So, if there is "redundancy" that condition does not affect their payments. And the total bill Danny Shelton is going to pay all those ELEVEN ATTORNEYS from the money the donors send to 3ABN is going to be COLOSSAL!
Eduard
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Unless all that money is coming from one donor's pocket for such a purpose.
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I have heard the possibility exists that the pocket in question may have been sewn shut... :dunno:
Unless all that money is coming from one donor's pocket for such a purpose.
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"Sam,"
I am not in your gang, so, please, don't call me Ed. Call me by the name I am listed in this forum. And excuse me if I don't have time to use as many words as you did to respond to your message. I believe in NON MULTA, SED MULTUM. Whatever you said about attorney's (sic! - wrong use of apostrophe), doesn't cancel the basic truth:
Did Danny Shelton retain ELEVEN ATTORNEYS AGAINST TWO BROKE AMATEURS? ELEVEN ATTORNEYS!!!!! ELEVEN ATTORNEYS!!! Do you have any vague idea how much each of these attorneys charge per hour? Do you have any idea how much it has cost Danny Shelton to keep these attorneys on his payroll? When people have trouble filling their tanks with gas, Danny Shelton spends HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS on a FRIVOLOUS lawsuit. How can he afford it? Is he a millionaire? Ah, I remember, Sera and others said that the money is donated to him. Even if this is so, shouldn't he, Danny Shelton, God's prophet of our time, spend the donated money WISELY, proclaiming God's message for our time instead of THROWING THE MONEY AWAY defending his damaged beyond repair reputation? Why doesn't he let God take care of his reputation the way Isaiah, Jeremiah, Paul, and other men of the Bible did?
WHAT DOES DANNY SHELTON HAVE TO HIDE THAT HE HIRED AN ARMY OF ATTORNEYS TO PROTECT HIM?
Eduard
Eduard, no need to holler. We can read just fine without the caps.
When someone hires a firm, that firm needs cocounsel in every state where actions occur involving their client.
Bob, which of these attorneys are redundant and why?
They will need far more than they have now to take care of all the issues that lay ahead.
Gailon Arthur Joy
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Eduard,
Bob is saying there are an excessive number of 3abn attorneys being used on this case.
Per American Heritage (R) Dictionary:
redundant
ADJECTIVE:
1. Exceeding what is necessary or natural; superfluous.
2. Needlessly wordy or repetitive in expression: a student paper filled with redundant phrases.
3. Of or relating to linguistic redundancy.
4. Chiefly British Dismissed or laid off from work, as for being no longer needed.
5. Electronics Of or involving redundancy in electronic equipment.
6. Of or involving redundancy in the transmission of messages.
They will need far more than they have now to take care of all the issues that lay ahead.
Gailon Arthur Joy
How so, Gailon? If it is to handle further actions you and Bob will be bringing then I can certainly understand how more attorneys will be needed.
Will Bob, Eduard and others be continuing to criticize the number of attorneys needed to address all of the issues that lay ahead?
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"GrandmaNettie,"
You are confused. You are using words you don't understand, and you are misinterpreting what Bob is saying. Which attorneys are "unnecessary"? Because of the complexity of the case, and the deep hole Danny Shelton is in, all the ELEVEN ATTORNEYS have been hired to deal with the particulars of the legislation in different states. None of them is "unnecessary." And none of them does "redundant" work. If they were "unnecessary," they would not continue to be retained. The fact is that Danny Shelton is so DESPERATE about what is going to happen to him in the near future that he is afraid that eleven attorneys might not even be enough to defend him against TWO BROKE AMATEURS! Trust Joy on this: Danny Shelton will probably have to hire soon even more attorneys to protect him from the trouble he caused himself when he sued Pickle and Joy!
The question remains: Considering the ENORMOUS SUMS OF MONEY necessary to retain this WHOLE ARMY OF ATTORNEYS, from where does Danny Shelton get to money to pay them? Is it from donations received by 3ABN? Is it from Bill Gates' foundation? We know that Pickle and Joy don't have enough money even to pay for the absolutely necessary fees for this lawsuit. People have just helped them with a few thousand dollars. Pickle and Joy are broke.
Non-profit organizations are required to be transparent with their finances. Such information should be in the public domain. So, sooner or later we will find out what is the source of the FORTUNE Danny Shelton is spending to repair his beyond repair reputation. Imagine what is going to happen then! Or, don't imagine! You might have nightmares for a long time - even after all this mess is over!
Eduard
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I wonder just how many Tax Lawyers he has.
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"GrandmaNettie,"
You are confused. You are using words you don't understand, and you are misinterpreting what Bob is saying. Which attorneys are "unnecessary"? Because of the complexity of the case, and the deep hole Danny Shelton is in, all the ELEVEN ATTORNEYS have been hired to deal with the particulars of the legislation in different states. None of them is "unnecessary." And none of them does "redundant" work. If they were "unnecessary," they would not continue to be retained. The fact is that Danny Shelton is so DESPERATE about what is going to happen to him in the near future that he is afraid that eleven attorneys might not even be enough to defend him against TWO BROKE AMATEURS! Trust Joy on this: Danny Shelton will probably have to hire soon even more attorneys to protect him from the trouble he caused himself when he sued Pickle and Joy!
The question remains: Considering the ENORMOUS SUMS OF MONEY necessary to retain this WHOLE ARMY OF ATTORNEYS, from where does Danny Shelton get to money to pay them? Is it from donations received by 3ABN? Is it from Bill Gates' foundation? We know that Pickle and Joy don't have enough money even to pay for the absolutely necessary fees for this lawsuit. People have just helped them with a few thousand dollars. Pickle and Joy are broke.
Non-profit organizations are required to be transparent with their finances. Such information should be in the public domain. So, sooner or later we will find out what is the source of the FORTUNE Danny Shelton is spending to repair his beyond repair reputation. Imagine what is going to happen then! Or, don't imagine! You might have nightmares for a long time - even after all this mess is over!
Eduard
It is good to see that we have some people around who still have the ability to think straight. May your tribe increase, Eduard.
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:ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL:
Great question, Fran! I wonder if he'll need a criminal defense lawyer??
I wonder just how many Tax Lawyers he has.
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We know that some 10+ years ago a magazine exposed Garvin McNeilus unethical methods of disposing with competition. The story also revealed that he is a SDA. GMcN lawyers went to work and sued the magazine, but I think the case was settled out of court with the magazine somehow withdrawing the article. Therefore that issue is not obtainable today, but certain individuals have a copy, and I saw it a couple of years ago.
So I suppose those lawyers are used to attack difficult cases.
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Why would you bring up something that happened over ten years ago? It is very possible that the "unethical methods" you speak of were incorrect. The magazine had a reason for withdrawing the article, probably because they were wrong in what they published.
This is nothing but an effort to slander Garwin McNeilus. Have you gone to him to ask him if this published story was true or not? That is what Matthew 18 teaches Johann. Until an effort is done to find out the particulars behind this, you have no business making this public.
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Hmmm appears to me that G Mc is doing a wonderful job all by himself taking care of his business as usual...
just because a lawyer forced an article to be withdrawn does not mean the article is false or untrue. It could be the magazine just didn't want to go bankrupt over one article.
I don't think that going to G Mc and ask him about the allegations would guarantee an honest answer.
Slowly backing away very very carefully..... and disapearing in the woodwork so G Mc wouldn't be looking at me to sue me for making an opinion.
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So I suppose those lawyers are used to attack difficult cases.
Yes they are. In Massachusetts a lawyer, James Fagan, who is also a Democrat in the state house of representatives, made the following statement as to how he would deal with six year old children who had been sexually molested.
"I'm gonna rip them apart," Fagan said of young victims during his testimony on the bill. "I'm going to make sure that the rest of their life is ruined, that when they’re 8 years old, they throw up; when they’re 12 years old, they won’t sleep; when they’re 19 years old, they’ll have nightmares and they’ll never have a relationship with anybody.”
Lawyers and courts of law are regularly used in the process of revictimizing victims and crushing their lives forever. People who are used to victimizing people can become very authoritative at it, and rely on it for as a means of their personal stature and self respect.
As the story goes, there were some SDA missionaries who went to a particular part of the world that was untouched by Christianity. They set up shop and proceeded to teach the locals about Jesus. When they came to the part about Judas, the people stood and cheered, not for Jesus, but for Judas. Why? Culturally they considered it respectable and a sign of great intelligence and bravery to betray your friends. What is wrong to some is the paragon of greatness to others.
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So then . . . you are claiming that your preconceived assumptions absolve you from following Biblical guidance? Interesting. Also, why hide? You felt strongly enough to say what you did - then you plan to hide . . . if what you say is true, Christian, and sweet in the ears of the Lord . . . why would you hide?
Hmmm appears to me that G Mc is doing a wonderful job all by himself taking care of his business as usual...
just because a lawyer forced an article to be withdrawn does not mean the article is false or untrue. It could be the magazine just didn't want to go bankrupt over one article.
I don't think that going to G Mc and ask him about the allegations would guarantee an honest answer.
Slowly backing away very very carefully..... and disapearing in the woodwork so G Mc wouldn't be looking at me to sue me for making an opinion.
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So then . . . you are claiming that your preconceived assumptions absolve you from following Biblical guidance? Interesting. Also, why hide? You felt strongly enough to say what you did - then you plan to hide . . . if what you say is true, Christian, and sweet in the ears of the Lord . . . why would you hide?
Hmmm appears to me that G Mc is doing a wonderful job all by himself taking care of his business as usual...
just because a lawyer forced an article to be withdrawn does not mean the article is false or untrue. It could be the magazine just didn't want to go bankrupt over one article.
I don't think that going to G Mc and ask him about the allegations would guarantee an honest answer.
Slowly backing away very very carefully..... and disapearing in the woodwork so G Mc wouldn't be looking at me to sue me for making an opinion.
Interesting question, Anyman, why did the Waldenses hide deep in the Alps when the military might of the minions of Rome sought to destroy them? Why did the woman of Revelation flee into the wilderness when the dragon was wroth with her? Why have Christians of so many ages had to practice their faith in hiding? If what Christians have had to say is sweet in the eyes of the Lord, why have they so consistently hidden from God's enemies who have so consistently used the legal systems of the time to kill and destroy God's people?
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"Junebug,"
Are you trained in Biblical Interpretation? Can you read the Bible in its original languages (Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic)? Are you an expert in Linguistics? I guess the answer to my questions would be: "None of the above!" All you know about the Bible is what your parents read to you for the Bedtime Story time.
Let me give you a mini lesson in PLAIN BIBLICAL READING: Matthew 18 deals with ONE-TO-ONE ISSUES between members of the church. Let me quote:
"If another member of the church SINS AGAINST YOU, go and point out the fault WHEN THE TWO OF YOU ARE ALONE" (Mt 18:15, NIV).
The case is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT when matters are PUBLIC. Such matters must be dealt with PUBLICLY. Paul (unlike you) knew this matter, and when he caught Peter acting hypocritically in Antioch he DENOUNCED PETER IN PUBLIC. Let me quote:
"But when I saw that they were not acting consistently with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas BEFORE THEM ALL (!!!!!), "If you, though a Jew, live like a Gentile, and not like a Jew, how can you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?" (Galatians 2:11-14, NIV).
PUBLIC MATTERS MUST BE DEALT WITH PUBLICLY. So, you are wrong when you state:
"Have you gone to him to ask him if this published story was true or not? That is what Matthew 18 teaches Johann. Until an effort is done to find out the particulars behind this, you have no business making this public."
You assumption that "The magazine had a reason for withdrawing the article, probably because they were wrong in what they published" is just a speculation. Garwin McNeilus could have simply bought the story from the magazine or threatened the magazine with his lawyers, in order to make them shut up. IT HAPPENS ALL THE TIME IN THIS COUNTRY. What happened years ago is relevant today because the boy is the father of the man.
Garwin McNeilus' dark dealings were made PUBLIC. Matthews 18 has nothing to do with it. YouR suggestion that Johann go and talk to Garwin about that PUBLIC MATTER only shows your ignorance in Biblical matters.
GOT IT?
Eduard
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Let me give you a mini lesson in PLAIN BIBLICAL READING: Matthew 18 deals with ONE-TO-ONE ISSUES between members of the church.
PUBLIC MATTERS MUST BE DEALT WITH PUBLICLY.
Thank you, Eduard, for pointing out what the 3ABN defenders forget when they continually use Matthew 18 as their mantra.
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Why would you bring up something that happened over ten years ago? It is very possible that the "unethical methods" you speak of were incorrect. The magazine had a reason for withdrawing the article, probably because they were wrong in what they published.
This is nothing but an effort to slander Garwin McNeilus. Have you gone to him to ask him if this published story was true or not? That is what Matthew 18 teaches Johann. Until an effort is done to find out the particulars behind this, you have no business making this public.
You are referring to a great principle. Would it not have been wonderful if that principle had been used by those people who have slandered Linda Shelton through the past several years, partly using funds from that same person, according to information given me by Danny Shelton, to enhance the vicious slander? Without asking her any questions, and without considering anything of what I experienced in that connection?
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Why would you bring up something that happened over ten years ago? It is very possible that the "unethical methods" you speak of were incorrect. The magazine had a reason for withdrawing the article, probably because they were wrong in what they published.
This is nothing but an effort to slander Garwin McNeilus. Have you gone to him to ask him if this published story was true or not? That is what Matthew 18 teaches Johann. Until an effort is done to find out the particulars behind this, you have no business making this public.
You are referring to a great principle. Would it not have been wonderful if that principle had been used by those people who have slandered Linda Shelton through the past several years, partly using funds from that same person, according to information given me by Danny Shelton, to enhance the vicious slander? Without asking her any questions, and without considering anything of what I experienced in that connection?
I emailed and asked her questions and got no answer. Recorded on BSDA
Donna as recently encouraged and assisted by both you and Habenero -emailed and asked her questions and got no answer, no reply... Recorded on 3ABN defended, as she was banned here due to me being banned and being in my same household.
The 3ABN board sent her a letter which she never replied to, and then met, and she did not attend although invited to. Recorded on BSDA, and on her own website.
Her Church met to consider all and she asked to be removed as a member rather then attend and give her side as asked. Those emails have been published also on BSDA, as well as Christian Forums, and again she wrote about this on her own website.
ASI tried to facilitate a resolution process and Linda refused to participate.. Recorded on the 3ABN website, Save 3ABN website and every forum concerned with all these issues...
Gregory Matthews, one of her most staunch and faithful defenders, asked her to make a stand and say where she stood in relation to Pickle and Joy's agenda, and she declined, recorded here on this forum.
She was served a subpoena and asked to answer questions and give a deposition, and did not appear nor give that deposition, the reasons may be in current dispute, but that fact is recorded here on this forum.
She seems to have this pattern. I don't know why, but it doesn't have a good appearance.
So, I'm sorry, but having read all the above and more, I am of the opinion that you don't have a leg to stand on when claiming Linda hasn't been consulted or asked first , or in implying her words and feelings and experience are considered irrelevant or of no value, so please, Johann, give it up!
...ian
P.S.
if anyone needs any of the links to any of the examples and documentation previously posted and referred to here as evidence to support what I am posting? simply ask for it. They are easily supplied and I will gladly do so.
Truth is truth.
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Why would you bring up something that happened over ten years ago? It is very possible that the "unethical methods" you speak of were incorrect. The magazine had a reason for withdrawing the article, probably because they were wrong in what they published.
This is nothing but an effort to slander Garwin McNeilus. Have you gone to him to ask him if this published story was true or not? That is what Matthew 18 teaches Johann. Until an effort is done to find out the particulars behind this, you have no business making this public.
You are referring to a great principle. Would it not have been wonderful if that principle had been used by those people who have slandered Linda Shelton through the past several years, partly using funds from that same person, according to information given me by Danny Shelton, to enhance the vicious slander? Without asking her any questions, and without considering anything of what I experienced in that connection?
I emailed and asked her questions and got no answer. Recorded on BSDA
Donna as recently encouraged by both you and Habenero -emailed and asked her questions and got no answer... Recorded on 3ABN defended
The 3ABN board sent her a letter which she never replied to, and then met, and she did not attend although invited to. Recorded on BSDA.
Her Church met to consider all and she asked to be removed as a member rather then attend and give her side as asked. Those emails have been published also on BSDA, as well as Christian Forums.
ASI tried to facilitate a resolution process and Linda refused to participate.. Recorded on the 3ABN website, Save 3ABN website and every forum...
She was served a subpoena and did not appear, as recorded here.
She seems to have this pattern.
...ian
P.S.
if anyone needs the links referred to, simply ask.
All a very good reason, you seem to think, to keep on with your attacks and vicious endeavor to nullify what she and her friends have attempted to do to get the matters straightened out. You keep guessing, claiming this to be your opinions, demanding that others accept what you absolutely know nothing about, except by hearsay. Who do you know? What have you experienced or seen by yourself? You pick up a fragment of a statement here and there, adding these together in your strange configurations, like I have experienced how you have quoted my statements. Worthless trash - at its best.
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Why would you bring up something that happened over ten years ago? It is very possible that the "unethical methods" you speak of were incorrect. The magazine had a reason for withdrawing the article, probably because they were wrong in what they published.
This is nothing but an effort to slander Garwin McNeilus. Have you gone to him to ask him if this published story was true or not? That is what Matthew 18 teaches Johann. Until an effort is done to find out the particulars behind this, you have no business making this public.
You are referring to a great principle. Would it not have been wonderful if that principle had been used by those people who have slandered Linda Shelton through the past several years, partly using funds from that same person, according to information given me by Danny Shelton, to enhance the vicious slander? Without asking her any questions, and without considering anything of what I experienced in that connection?
I emailed and asked her questions and got no answer. Recorded on BSDA
Donna as recently encouraged by both you and Habenero -emailed and asked her questions and got no answer... Recorded on 3ABN defended
The 3ABN board sent her a letter which she never replied to, and then met, and she did not attend although invited to. Recorded on BSDA.
Her Church met to consider all and she asked to be removed as a member rather then attend and give her side as asked. Those emails have been published also on BSDA, as well as Christian Forums.
ASI tried to facilitate a resolution process and Linda refused to participate.. Recorded on the 3ABN website, Save 3ABN website and every forum...
She was served a subpoena and did not appear, as recorded here.
She seems to have this pattern.
...ian
P.S.
if anyone needs the links referred to, simply ask.
All a very good reason, you seem to think, to keep on with your attacks and vicious endeavor to nullify what she and her friends have attempted to do to get the matters straightened out. You keep guessing, claiming this to be your opinions, demanding that others accept what you absolutely know nothing about, except by hearsay. Who do you know? What have you experienced or seen by yourself? You pick up a fragment of a statement here and there, adding these together in your strange configurations, like I have experienced how you have quoted my statements. Worthless trash - at its best.
Whatever...
I am offering documents evidence and links to support and back what I posted, and you are offering empty claims with none of that...
You are a Pastor Johann, surely you know the value of "Proving all things" and "making diligent search" before rendering a judgment?
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This has certainly been a pleasant forum the past few days without your spiteful remarks about good Godly men here.....I do not appreciate nor enjoy your posts....and have not missed you at all..............................you sound like you have alot of vengance in your heart.....and that kind of attitude deteriates forums like this........I am sadden you are back. and hope and Pray for your change of heart in continually putting down good people......I don't care what you do or do not think you know.........there are some very good godly men here such as Johann....and I for one do not appreciate your putting him down.....l :dogwag:
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Yes, through my 75 years of life I have sought what is good, what is honorable, and what is true. God has not deceived me, and what I have seen, heard, and experiences is not an empty claim, no matter what you are attempting to make out of it.
As long as you only look at one side of things you can document and claim all you want, and it is still worthless as long you ignore the picture of what really happened.
Where you there when Dr. Arild Abrahamsen was treating Linda's son? I was. Where you there when Linda went to see how her son was doing there in Norway? I was. Where you there when Arild invited the group for dinner - Brenda, Linda, Nathan? I was there too, and therefore I know that some reports of what happened there are totally false. And just those reports indicate that something is fishy. It appears as if someone is trying to make up things that never were. I could go on for a long time. This is not rendering a judgment. It is telling what really happened. Did you see some really telling cigarette stubs? - well, that is enough for now.
Yes, I am making a diligent search - and I pray that some day you will too, something that is better than what you have produced till now. Even if you might have some assistance that you think is good.
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This has certainly been a pleasant forum the past few days without your spiteful remarks about good Godly men here.....I do not appreciate nor enjoy your posts....and have not missed you at all..............................you sound like you have alot of vengance in your heart.....and that kind of attitude deteriates forums like this........I am sadden you are back. and hope and Pray for your change of heart in continually putting down good people......I don't care what you do or do not think you know.........there are some very good godly men here such as Johann....and I for one do not appreciate your putting him down.....l :dogwag:
It has been pleasant hasn't it, for several days? :dogwag:
I agree that some people's methods are "attack without evidence" :(, yet all that I have seen from Johann, Bob and Gailon, has been backed up with evidence. I believe that speaks volumes about the people concerned.
You know, Linda is still waiting for the 'so-called evidence' of her adultery, to be produced by Danny. She has called for it. He refuses. :help: Something 'smells' a little there too, don't you think?
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I totally agree, judibug! I was thinking today that the peaceful atmosphere was shattered, similar to when a toddler wakes up from a nap with a dirty diaper...
This has certainly been a pleasant forum the past few days without your spiteful remarks about good Godly men here.....I do not appreciate nor enjoy your posts....and have not missed you at all..............................you sound like you have alot of vengance in your heart.....and that kind of attitude deteriates forums like this........I am sadden you are back. and hope and Pray for your change of heart in continually putting down good people......I don't care what you do or do not think you know.........there are some very good godly men here such as Johann....and I for one do not appreciate your putting him down.....l :dogwag:
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More accurately you were experiencing an environment where your POV (though it is significantly factually challenged) wasn't challenged, wasn't questioned . . . you want to be left alone to your negative feelings and attitudes, you want to be allowed to despise and hate without anyone presenting facts that put your reasons for such feelings in question. It is funny that your idea of a peaceful atmosphere is one where you can make fun of, and question the motives, morals, Christian walk of others and when someone comes in a challenges and questions it - you attack them, accuse them of ruining your environment. If you could, for even a moment, step out of your skin and bias and read what has been said here . . . you wouldn't be making posts like the one you just made.
I totally agree, judibug! I was thinking today that the peaceful atmosphere was shattered, similar to when a toddler wakes up from a nap with a dirty diaper...
This has certainly been a pleasant forum the past few days without your spiteful remarks about good Godly men here.....I do not appreciate nor enjoy your posts....and have not missed you at all..............................you sound like you have alot of vengance in your heart.....and that kind of attitude deteriates forums like this........I am sadden you are back. and hope and Pray for your change of heart in continually putting down good people......I don't care what you do or do not think you know.........there are some very good godly men here such as Johann....and I for one do not appreciate your putting him down.....l :dogwag:
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It has been pleasant hasn't it, for several days?
I agree that some people's methods are "attack without evidence" , yet all that I have seen from Johann, Bob and Gailon, has been backed up with evidence. I believe that speaks volumes about the people concerned.
You know, Linda is still waiting for the 'so-called evidence' of her adultery, to be produced by Danny. She has called for it. He refuses. Something 'smells' a little there too, don't you think?
What you call evidence you have not checked for veracity, authenticity, or even basic substantiation. As events will show, there is much you have bought into (due to drinking the koolaid) that has no basis in fact. The H.M.S. Joy Pickle is a sinking ship - but the passengers don't know it yet . . . are you aware of where the nearest life boat is? It will be interesting to see if the captain will go down with the ship or if he has already slipped away in the only life boat on board.
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:ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL:
More accurately you were experiencing an environment where your POV (though it is significantly factually challenged) wasn't challenged, wasn't questioned . . . you want to be left alone to your negative feelings and attitudes, you want to be allowed to despise and hate without anyone presenting facts that put your reasons for such feelings in question. It is funny that your idea of a peaceful atmosphere is one where you can make fun of, and question the motives, morals, Christian walk of others and when someone comes in a challenges and questions it - you attack them, accuse them of ruining your environment. If you could, for even a moment, step out of your skin and bias and read what has been said here . . . you wouldn't be making posts like the one you just made.
I totally agree, judibug! I was thinking today that the peaceful atmosphere was shattered, similar to when a toddler wakes up from a nap with a dirty diaper...
This has certainly been a pleasant forum the past few days without your spiteful remarks about good Godly men here.....I do not appreciate nor enjoy your posts....and have not missed you at all..............................you sound like you have alot of vengance in your heart.....and that kind of attitude deteriates forums like this........I am sadden you are back. and hope and Pray for your change of heart in continually putting down good people......I don't care what you do or do not think you know.........there are some very good godly men here such as Johann....and I for one do not appreciate your putting him down.....l :dogwag:
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Sadly . . . predictable response . . .
:ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL:
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:ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL:
Sadly . . . predictable response . . .
:ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL:
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:ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL:
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Every single point you stated is directed back to you.
More accurately you were experiencing an environment where your POV (though it is significantly factually challenged) wasn't challenged, wasn't questioned . . . you want to be left alone to your negative feelings and attitudes, you want to be allowed to despise and hate without anyone presenting facts that put your reasons for such feelings in question. It is funny that your idea of a peaceful atmosphere is one where you can make fun of, and question the motives, morals, Christian walk of others and when someone comes in a challenges and questions it - you attack them, accuse them of ruining your environment. If you could, for even a moment, step out of your skin and bias and read what has been said here . . . you wouldn't be making posts like the one you just made.
I totally agree, judibug! I was thinking today that the peaceful atmosphere was shattered, similar to when a toddler wakes up from a nap with a dirty diaper...
This has certainly been a pleasant forum the past few days without your spiteful remarks about good Godly men here.....I do not appreciate nor enjoy your posts....and have not missed you at all..............................you sound like you have alot of vengance in your heart.....and that kind of attitude deteriates forums like this........I am sadden you are back. and hope and Pray for your change of heart in continually putting down good people......I don't care what you do or do not think you know.........there are some very good godly men here such as Johann....and I for one do not appreciate your putting him down.....l :dogwag:
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I honor you Johann for the Christian attitude you truly display each and everytime one of the hate mongers here spue their hatred. I truly believe you to be a Godly man who has first hand experience of anything you comment on and do not question your integrity sincerity and honesty. I am so saddened at the hatred that is expressed to God's godly men here.....but..we have to remember Satan's time is getting shorter by the hour, and he is running wild trying to get the very last soul in his grip..........with what ever means possible.......I think we all should be on our knees continually, pleading with the Lord....come quickly.....and the signs of time prove that is the fact....soon, very soon, we will see the Lord................you continue Johann,,,with your faith, integrity, honesty......because the Lord will prevail........it is obvious to me that those people of God here, are the quitest of the verbalizers here....who do not see the need to defend the truth constantly.......Like Linda....she has nothing to defend. .... except her love for God and she does that wonderfully..........Keep the faith Johann......those who come here for the purpose of bashing their accusations, are the ones blowing trumpets the loudest.....Christs coming in the clouds trumpets will prevail..........We all need to concentrate on preparing for that great day.......as nothing of this world matters........meeting Jesus in the air is.................Happy Sabbath all.......and may you have a blessed Sabbath day..........I Will......................honor and respect to you Johann................................
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"anyman,"
You are definitedly not "anyman." You don't seem to be living in a democracy, or understand what a democracy is about. Besides your absurd and without sense statements, most of your posts contain insinuation, threatening, and promises of severe punishment to all those who oppose you and your gang. Listen to yourself:
"As events will show, there is much you have bought into (due to drinking the koolaid) that has no basis in fact. The H.M.S. Joy Pickle is a sinking ship - but the passengers don't know it yet . . . are you aware of where the nearest life boat is? It will be interesting to see if the captain will go down with the ship or if he has already slipped away in the only life boat on board."
May I remind you that most of us live in the United States, even if you live in Zimbabwe or other dictatorship? In this country the thieves, embezzlers, intimidators, threateners, and murderers still get their punishment. Who do you think is Danny Shelton? God? Even the President of the United States could not silence thousands and thousands of people who stand up against evil.
You don't seem to know any history. A single man, unarmed but determined drove a whole army out of India and liberated a country. I lived in a dictatorship for half of my life, but even there I did not hear so many words of intimidation, threats, and promises of punishment as I have read on two or three forums in the past two years from people like you. Threats have been taken seriously in this country in the past years, and those who threaten people with violence are called TERRORISTS now. You need to be careful with your words. You may have to face the law soon if you continue to try to intimidate and threaten people on this forum or other such forums.
This is a forum of people who love to do what is right, and want justice to be done.
Eduard
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Post edited to remove inappropriate content - Daryl Fawcett, Administrator.
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Enjoy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vL7Jo_1Z3Y8
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"anyman,"
So, you think that it is your moral obligation to challenge and question others who are "left alone to their negative feelings and attitudes?"
Eduard
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Edited to remove inappropriate content from this post. - Daryl Fawcett, Administrator.
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Enjoy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vL7Jo_1Z3Y8
Nice. Just eases the tension a wee bit.
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:TY: :pals: :puppykisses: we all need hugs and:praying: for each other no matter how we feel about each other.
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Enjoy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vL7Jo_1Z3Y8
Contagious! Wishing for an epidemic. It began to look like the heaven I imagine and hope for.
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"anyman,"
You are definitedly not "anyman." You don't seem to be living in a democracy, or understand what a democracy is about. Besides your absurd and without sense statements, most of your posts contain insinuation, threatening, and promises of severe punishment to all those who oppose you and your gang. Listen to yourself:
"As events will show, there is much you have bought into (due to drinking the koolaid) that has no basis in fact. The H.M.S. Joy Pickle is a sinking ship - but the passengers don't know it yet . . . are you aware of where the nearest life boat is? It will be interesting to see if the captain will go down with the ship or if he has already slipped away in the only life boat on board."
May I remind you that most of us live in the United States, even if you live in Zimbabwe or other dictatorship? In this country the thieves, embezzlers, intimidators, threateners, and murderers still get their punishment. Who do you think is Danny Shelton? God? Even the President of the United States could not silence thousands and thousands of people who stand up against evil.
You don't seem to know any history. A single man, unarmed but determined drove a whole army out of India and liberated a country. I lived in a dictatorship for half of my life, but even there I did not hear so many words of intimidation, threats, and promises of punishment as I have read on two or three forums in the past two years from people like you. Threats have been taken seriously in this country in the past years, and those who threaten people with violence are called TERRORISTS now. You need to be careful with your words. You may have to face the law soon if you continue to try to intimidate and threaten people on this forum or other such forums. You are not too far away from the arm of the law. They can find you even if you have hidden deep in your dirty hole.
I think that you, Sam, Ian, Donna, and others who have infiltrated this forum are part of a gang of TERRORISTS whose leader is Danny Shelton and who want to hurt EMOTIONALLY AND PHYSICALLY those who have dared to bring into the open the Satanic actions taken by Danny Shelton against many people who disagreed with him, or opposed him. You are escalating this issue to a matter of NATIONAL SECURITY, and I hope that some will dare to call the FBI on you all and find out with what authority the members of your gang threaten and intimidate people, promising that hell will fall on them because they blew the whistle on Danny Shelton. :ROFL:
Go and spew your venom somewhere else. This place is not for evil people like you. This is a forum of people who love to do what is right, and want justice to be done.
Eduard
The only one spewing venom here is you. The first highlighted words are the very definition of the word THREATS.
The next highlighted words are so ridiculous it's funny.
The last highlighted words just make one wonder about who you are calling evil. Your posts define that word also.
=====
Edited to separate post from quoted post/s.
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You know, if you post AFTER the last [/quote], your words will be a lot easier for everyone to find. Just a tip...
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What you call evidence you have not checked for veracity, authenticity, or even basic substantiation. As events will show, there is much you have bought into (due to drinking the koolaid) that has no basis in fact. The H.M.S. Joy Pickle is a sinking ship - but the passengers don't know it yet . . . are you aware of where the nearest life boat is? It will be interesting to see if the captain will go down with the ship or if he has already slipped away in the only life boat on board.
Well, me laddies, me had to look fer this here ship "HMS Joy Pickle" but discovered it was at full sail and solid at the watermark, not so much as listing under the gale winds that blew about her. All guns were blazing well and clearly discharging in good order, taking there toll on ye enemy encarpments.
Heard the cap'n yell something of the likes of "damn the tropedoes...full speed ahead" and he semifored that all passengers and crew were accounted fer.
Now, mates, don't ya be a bit concerned fer the likes of that landlubbing cave dwellin ANYMAN as we have discovered he is listing badly at the bow, if yer know what me means!!!
Keep a sharp eye for the standard bearer, HMS Joy Pickle, and ya certain to keep an even keel in a steady headwind. And keep a mind, matie, that in ye Royal Navy the cap'n is ALWAYS the last to leave 'is station!!! A rich tradition not understood by less honorable blokes.
Adm Bowditch
=====
Edited to correct formatting problem of quoted post.
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"sam,"
People here and in other forums have mentioned again and again how they have been watched, threatened on the phone, had their computers destroyed, and their very lives threatened. Just in the past months subpoenas have been served to different forums against those who have deared to bring to light the evil deeds of your master, Danny Shelton. What else needs to follow? Murder? Because this is all that is left, and I don't know if you and the bunch of thugs and TERRORISTS you belong to would have any conscience troubles going even so far. I am still trying to classify you: NEO NAZI? FASCISTS? A modern branch of the KU KLUX KLAN who doesn't discriminate between colors?
When people like Danny Shelton and his thugs ( among whom are you, "anyman," "Ian," "Donna," and others) launch an assault on thousands of people in a desperate effort to hide the truth about Danny Shelton's gross mistreatment of Linda, his deceptive financial dealings, his dirty personal life, and his intimidating and threatening actions, including the hiring of ELEVEN ATTORNEYS in an attempt to silence TWO BROKE AMATEURS, then SOMETHING BIG IS HIDING IN THE "PROPHET'S CLOSET."
Your hysterical propaganda in Danny Shelton's favor, the distortion of FACTS, the misdirection of information, and all similar tactics are a WASTE OF TIME. You are dealing on this forum with intelligent people who know to separate FACT from FICTION, TRUTH from DECEPTION.
Go and hang out with your gang of thugs. You are not needed or welcomed here. I think that I can speak for most of us here on this forum in this matter.
Eduard
"anyman,"
You are definitedly not "anyman." You don't seem to be living in a democracy, or understand what a democracy is about. Besides your absurd and without sense statements, most of your posts contain insinuation, threatening, and promises of severe punishment to all those who oppose you and your gang. Listen to yourself:
"As events will show, there is much you have bought into (due to drinking the koolaid) that has no basis in fact. The H.M.S. Joy Pickle is a sinking ship - but the passengers don't know it yet . . . are you aware of where the nearest life boat is? It will be interesting to see if the captain will go down with the ship or if he has already slipped away in the only life boat on board."
May I remind you that most of us live in the United States, even if you live in Zimbabwe or other dictatorship? In this country the thieves, embezzlers, intimidators, threateners, and murderers still get their punishment. Who do you think is Danny Shelton? God? Even the President of the United States could not silence thousands and thousands of people who stand up against evil.
You don't seem to know any history. A single man, unarmed but determined drove a whole army out of India and liberated a country. I lived in a dictatorship for half of my life, but even there I did not hear so many words of intimidation, threats, and promises of punishment as I have read on two or three forums in the past two years from people like you. Threats have been taken seriously in this country in the past years, and those who threaten people with violence are called TERRORISTS now. You need to be careful with your words. You may have to face the law soon if you continue to try to intimidate and threaten people on this forum or other such forums. You are not too far away from the arm of the law. They can find you even if you have hidden deep in your dirty hole.
I think that you, Sam, Ian, Donna, and others who have infiltrated this forum are part of a gang of TERRORISTS whose leader is Danny Shelton and who want to hurt EMOTIONALLY AND PHYSICALLY those who have dared to bring into the open the Satanic actions taken by Danny Shelton against many people who disagreed with him, or opposed him. You are escalating this issue to a matter of NATIONAL SECURITY, and I hope that some will dare to call the FBI on you all and find out with what authority the members of your gang threaten and intimidate people, promising that hell will fall on them because they blew the whistle on Danny Shelton. :ROFL:
Go and spew your venom somewhere else. This place is not for evil people like you. This is a forum of people who love to do what is right, and want justice to be done.
Eduard
The only one spewing venom here is you. The first highlighted words are the very definition of the word THREATS.
The next highlighted words are so ridiculous it's funny.
The last highlighted words just make one wonder about who you are calling evil. Your posts define that word also.
=====
Edited to separate post from quoted post/s.
-
What you call evidence you have not checked for veracity, authenticity, or even basic substantiation. As events will show, there is much you have bought into (due to drinking the koolaid) that has no basis in fact. The H.M.S. Joy Pickle is a sinking ship - but the passengers don't know it yet . . . are you aware of where the nearest life boat is? It will be interesting to see if the captain will go down with the ship or if he has already slipped away in the only life boat on board.
Well, me laddies, me had to look fer this here ship "HMS Joy Pickle" but discovered it was at full sail and solid at the watermark, not so much as listing under the gale winds that blew about her. All guns were blazing well and clearly discharging in good order, taking there toll on ye enemy encarpments.
Heard the cap'n yell something of the likes of "damn the tropedoes...full speed ahead" and he semifored that all passengers and crew were accounted fer.
Now, mates, don't ya be a bit concerned fer the likes of that landlubbing cave dwellin ANYMAN as we have discovered he is listing badly at the bow, if yer know what me means!!!
Keep a sharp eye for the standard bearer, HMS Joy Pickle, and ya certain to keep an even keel in a steady headwind. And keep a mind, matie, that in ye Royal Navy the cap'n is ALWAYS the last to leave 'is station!!! A rich tradition not understood by less honorable blokes.
Adm Bowditch
Reminiscing, and feeling somewhat nostalgic here.
page 555
The morning of the third day dawned fair and fresh, and once more the solitary night-man at the fore-mast-head was relieved by crowds of the daylight look-outs, who dotted every mast and almost every spar.
"D'ye see him?" cried Ahab; but the whale was not yet in sight.
"In his infallible wake, though; but follow that wake, that's all. Helm there; steady, as thou goest, and hast been going. What a lovely day again; were it a new-made world, and made for a summer-house to the angels, and this morning the first of its throwing open to them, a fairer day could not dawn upon that world. Here's food for thought, had Ahab time to think; but Ahab never thinks; he only feels, feels, feels; that's tingling enough for mortal man! to think's audacity. God only has that right and privilege. Thinking is, or ought to be, a coolness and a calmness; and our poor hearts throb, and our poor brains beat too much for that. And yet, I've sometimes thought my brain was very calm - frozen calm, this old skull cracks so, like a glass in which the contents turned to ice, and shiver it. And still this hair is growing now; this moment growing, and heat must breed it; but no, it's like that sort of common grass that will grow anywhere, between the earthy clefts of Greenland ice or in Vesuvius lava. How the wild winds blow it; they whip it about me as the torn shreds of split sails lash the tossed ship they cling to. A vile wind that has no doubt blown ere this through prison corridors and cells, and wards of hospitals, and ventilated them, and now comes blowing hither as innocent as
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fleeces. Out upon it! - it's tainted. Were I the wind, I'd blow no more on such a wicked, miserable world. I'd crawl somewhere to a cave, and slink there. And yet, 'tis a noble and heroic thing, the wind! who ever conquered it? In every fight it has the last and bitterest blow. Run tilting at it, and you but run through it. Ha! a coward wind that strikes stark naked men, but will not stand to receive a single blow. Even Ahab is a braver thing - a nobler thing that that. Would now the wind but had a body; but all the things that most exasperate and outrage mortal man, all these things are bodiless, but only bodiless as objects, not as agents. There's a most special, a most cunning, oh, a most malicious difference! And yet, I say again, and swear it now, that there's something all glorious and gracious in the wind. These warm Trade Winds, at least, that in the clear heavens blow straight on, in strong and steadfast, vigorous mildness; and veer not from their mark, however the baser currents of the sea may turn and tack, and mightiest Mississippies of the land swift and swerve about, uncertain where to go at last. And by the eternal Poles! these same Trades that so directly blow my good ship on; these Trades, or something like them - something so unchangeable, and full as strong, blow my keeled soul along! To it! Aloft there! What d'ye see?"
"Nothing, Sir."
"Nothing! and noon at hand! The doubloon goes a-begging! See the sun! Aye, aye, it must be so. I've oversailed him. How, got the start? Aye, he's chasing me now; not I, him - that's bad; I might have known it, too. Fool! the lines - the harpoons he's towing. Aye, aye, I have run him by last night. About! about! Come down, all of ye, but the regular look outs! Man the braces!"
Steering as she had done, the wind had been somewhat on the Pequod's quarter, so that now being pointed in the reverse direction, the braced ship sailed hard upon the breeze as she rechurned the cream in her own white wake.
"Against the wind he now steers for the open jaw," murmured Starbuck to himself, as he coiled the new-hauled main- brace upon the rail. "God keep us, but already my bones feel
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damp within me, and from the inside wet my flesh. I misdoubt me that I disobey my God in obeying him!"
"Stand by to sway me up!" cried Ahab, advancing to the hempen basket. "We should meet him soon."
"Aye, aye, Sir," and straightway Starbuck did Ahab's bidding, and once more Ahab swung on high.
A whole hour now passed; gold-beaten out to ages. time itself now held long breaths with keen suspense. But at last, some three points off the weather bow, Ahab descried the spout again, and instantly from the three mast-heads three shrieks went up as if the tongues of fire had voiced it.
"Forehead to forehead I meet thee, this third time, Moby Dick! On deck there! - brace sharper up; crowd her into the wind's eye. He's too far off to lower yet, Mr. Starbuck. The sails shake! Stand over that helmsman with a top- maul! So, so; he travels fast, and I must down. But let me have one more good round look aloft here at the sea; there's time for that. An old, old sight, and yet somehow so young; aye, and not changed a wink since I first saw it, a boy, from the sand-hills of Nantucket! The same! - the same! - the same to Noah as to me. There's a soft shower to leeward. Such lovely leewardings! They must lead somewhere - to something else than common land, more palmy than the palms. Leeward! the white whale goes that way; look to windward, then; the better if the bitterer quarter. But good bye, good bye, old mast-head! What's this? - green? aye, tiny mosses in these warped cracks. No such green weather stains on Ahab's head! There's the difference now between man's old age and matter's. But aye, old mast, we both grow old together; sound in our hulls, though, are we not, my ship? Aye, minus a leg, that's all. By heaven this dead wood has the better of my live flesh every way. I can't compare with it; and I've known some ships made of dead trees outlast the lives of men made of the most vital stuff of vital fathers. What's that he said? he should still go before me, my pilot; and yet to be seen again? But where? Will I have eyes at the bottom of the sea, supposing I descend those endless stairs? and all night I've been sailing from him, wherever he did sink to. Aye,
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aye, like many more thou told'st direful truth as touching thyself, O Parsee; but, Ahab, there thy shot fell short. Good by, mast- head - keep a good eye upon the whale, the while I'm gone. We'll talk to-morrow, nay, to-night, when the white whale lies down there, tied by head and tail."
He gave the word; and still gazing round him, was steadily lowered through the cloven blue air to the deck.
In due time the boats were lowered, but as standing in his shallop's stern, Ahab just hovered upon the point of the descent, he waved to the mate, - who held one of the tackle-ropes on deck - and bade him pause.
"Starbuck!"
"Sir?"
"For the third time my soul's ship starts upon this voyage, Starbuck."
"Aye, Sir, thou wilt have it so."
"Some ships sail from their ports, and ever afterwards are missing, Starbuck!"
"Truth, Sir: saddest truth."
"Some men die at ebb tide; some at low water; some at the full of the flood; - and I feel now like a billow that's all one crested comb, Starbuck. I am old; - shake hands with me, man."
Their hands met; their eyes fastened; Starbuck's tears the glue.
"Oh, my captain, my captain! - noble heart - go not - go not! - see, it's a brave man that weeps; how great the agony of the persuasion then!"
"Lower away!" - cried Ahab, tossing the mate's arm from him. "Stand by the crew!"
In an instant the boat was pulling round close under the stern.
"The sharks! the sharks!" cried a voice from the low cabin-window there; "O master, my master, come back!"
But Ahab heard nothing; for his own voice was high-lifted then; and the boat leaped on.
Yet the voice spake true; for scarce had he pushed from the ship, when numbers of sharks, seemingly rising from out the dark waters beneath the hull, maliciously snapped at the blades of the oars, every time they dipped in the water; and in this
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way accompanied the boat with their bites. It is a thing not uncommonly happening to the whale-boats in those swarming seas; the sharks at times apparently following them in the same prescient way that vultures hover over the banners of marching regiments in the east. But these were the first sharks that had been observed by the Pequod since the White Whale had been first descried; and whether it was that Ahab's crew were all such tiger- yellow barbarians, and therefore their flesh more musky to the senses of the sharks - a matter sometimes well known to affect them, - however it was, they seemed to follow that one boat without molesting the others.
"Heart of wrought steel!" murmured Starbuck gazing over the side, and following with his eyes the receding boat - "canst thou yet ring boldly to that sight?" - lowering thy keel among ravening sharks, and followed by them, open-mouthed to the chase; and this the critical third day? - For when three days flow together in one continuous intense pursuit; be sure the first is the morning, the second the noon, and the third the evening and the end of that thing - be that end what it may. Oh! my God! what is this that shoots through me, and leaves me so deadly calm, yet expectant, - fixed at the top of a shudder! Future things swim before me, as in empty outlines and skeletons; all the past is somehow grown dim. Mary, girl! thou fadest in pale glories behind me; boy! I seem to see but thy eyes grown wondrous blue. Strangest problems of life seem clearing; but clouds sweep between - Is my journey's end coming? My legs feel faint; like his who has footed it all day. Feel thy heart, - beats it yet? - Stir thyself, Starbuck! - stave it off - move, move! speak aloud! - Mast-head there! See ye my boy's hand on the hill? - Crazed; - aloft there! - keep thy keenest eye upon the boats: - mark well the whale! - Ho! again! - drive off that hawk! see! he pecks - he tears the vane - pointing to the red flag flying at the main-truck - "Ha! he soars away with it! - Where's the old man now? sees't thou that sight, oh Ahab! - shudder, shudder!"
The boats had not gone very far, when by a signal from the mast-heads - a downward pointed arm, Ahab knew that the whale had sounded; but intending to be near him at the next rising, he
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held on his way a little sideways from the vessel; the becharmed crew maintaining the profoundest silence, as the head-beat waves hammered and hammered against the opposing bow.
"Drive, drive in your nails, oh ye waves! to their uttermost heads, drive them in! ye but strike a thing without a lid; and no coffin and no hearse can be mine: - and hemp only can kill me! Ha! ha!"
Suddenly the waters around them slowly swelled in broad circles; then quickly upheaved, as if sideways sliding from a submerged berg of ice, swiftly rising to the surface. A low rumbling sound was heard; a subterraneous hum; and then all held their breaths; as bedraggled with trailing ropes, and harpoons, and lances, a vast form shot lengthwise, but obliquely from the sea. Shrouded in a thin drooping veil of mist, it hovered for a moment in the rainbowed air; and then fell swamping back into the deep. Crushed thirty feet upwards, the waters flashed for an instant like heaps of fountains, then brokenly sank in a shower of flakes, leaving the circling surface creamed like new milk round the marble trunk of the whale.
"Give way!" cried Ahab to the oarsmen, and the boats darted forward to the attack; but maddened by yesterday's fresh irons that corroded in him, Moby Dick seemed combinedly possessed by all the angels that fell from heaven. The wide tiers of welded tendons overspreading his broad white forehead, beneath the transparent skin, looked knitted together; as head on, he came churning his tail among the boats; and once more flailed them apart; spilling out the irons and lances from the two mates' boats, and dashing in one side of the upper part of their bows, but leaving Ahab's almost without a scar.
While Daggoo and Queequeg were stopping the strained planks; and as the whale swimming out from them, turned, and showed one entire flank as he shot by them again; at that moment a quick cry went up. Lashed round and round to the fish's back; pinioned in the turns upon turns in which, during the past night, the whale had reeled the involutions of the lines around him, the half torn body of the Parsee was seen; his sable raiment frayed to shreds; his distended eyes turned full upon old Ahab.
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The harpoon dropped from his hand.
"Befooled, befooled!" - drawing in a long lean breath - "Aye, Parsee! I see thee again. - Aye, and thou goest before; and this, this then is the hearse that thou didst promise. But I hold thee to the last letter of thy word. Where is the second hearse? Away, mates, to the ship! those boats are useless now; repair them if ye can in time, and return to me; if not, Ahab is enough to die - Down, men! the first thing that but offers to jump from this boat I stand in, that thing I harpoon. Ye are not other men, but my arms and my legs; and so obey me. - Where's the whale? gone down again?"
But he looked too nigh the boat; for as if bent upon escaping with the corpse he bore, and as if the particular place of the last encounter had been but a stage in his leeward voyage, Moby Dick was now again steadily swimming forward; and had almost passed the ship, - which thus far had been sailing in the contrary direction to him, though for the present her headway had been stopped. He seemed swimming with his utmost velocity, and now only intent upon pursuing his own straight path in the sea.
"Oh! Ahab," cried Starbuck, "not too late is it, even now, the third day, to desist. See! Moby Dick seeks thee not. It is thou, thou, that madly seekest him!"
Setting sail to the rising wind, the lonely boat was swiftly impelled to leeward, by both oars and canvas. And at last when Ahab was sliding by the vessel, so near as plainly to distinguish Starbuck's face as he leaned over the rail, he hailed him to turn the vessel about, and follow him, not too swiftly, at a judicious interval. Glancing upwards, he saw Tashtego, Queequeg, and Daggoo, eagerly mounting to the three mast- heads; while the oarsmen were rocking in the two staved boats which had but just been hoisted to the side, and were busily at work in repairing them. One after the other, through the portholes, as he sped, he also caught flying glimpses of Stubb and Flask, busying themselves on deck among bundles of new irons and lances. As he saw all this; as he heard the hammers in the broken boats; far other hammers seemed driving a nail into his heart. But he rallied. And now marking that the vane or
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flag was gone from the main-mast-head, he shouted to Tashtego, who had just gained that perch, to descend again for another flag, and a hammer and nails, and so nail it to the mast.
Whether fagged by the three days' running chase, and the resistance to his swimming in the knotted hamper he bore; or whether it was some latent deceitfulness and malice in him: whichever was true, the White Whale's way now began to abate, as it seemed, from the boat so rapidly nearing him once more; though indeed the whale's last start had not been so long a one as before. And still as Ahab glided over the waves the unpitying sharks accompanied him; and so pertinaciously stuck to the boat; and so continually bit at the plying oars, that the blades became jagged and crunched, and left small splinters in the sea, at almost every dip.
"Heed them not! those teeth but give new rowlocks to your oars. Pull on! 'tis the better rest, the shark's jaw than the yielding water."
"But at every bite, Sir, the thin blades grow smaller and smaller!"
"They will last long enough! pull on! - But who can tell" - he muttered - "whether these sharks swim to feast on the whale or on Ahab? - But pull on! Aye, all alive, now - we near him. The helm! take the helm; let me pass," - and so saying, two of the oarsmen helped him forward to the bows of the still flying boat.
At length as the craft was cast to one side, and ran ranging along with the White Whale's flank, he seemed strangely oblivious of its advance - as the whale sometimes will - and Ahab was fairly within the smoky mountain mist, which, thrown off from the whale's spout, curled round his great, Monadnock hump; he was even thus close to him; when, with body arched back, and both arms lengthwise high-lifted to the poise, he darted his fierce iron, and his far fiercer curse into the hated whale. As both steel and curse sank to the socket, as if sucked into a morass, Moby Dick sideways writhed; spasmodically rolled his nigh flank against the bow, and, without staving a hole in it, so suddenly canted the boat over, that had it not been for the elevated part of the gunwale to which he then clung, Ahab would once more have been tossed into the sea.
page 563
As it was, three of the oarsmen - who foreknew not the precise instant of the dart, and were therefore unprepared for its effects - these were flung out; but so fell, that, in an instant two of them clutched the gunwale again, and rising to its level on a combing wave, hurled themselves bodily inboard again; the third man helplessly dropping astern, but still afloat and swimming.
Almost simultaneously, with a mighty volition of ungraduated, instantaneous swiftness, the White Whale darted through the weltering sea. But when Ahab cried out to the steersman to take new turns with the line, and hold it so; and commanded the crew to turn round on their seats, and tow the boat up to the mark; the moment the treacherous line felt that double strain and tug, it snapped in the empty air!
"What breaks in me? Some sinew cracks! - 'tis whole again; oars! oars! Burst in upon him!"
Hearing the tremendous rush of the sea-crashing boat, the whale wheeled round to present his blank forehead at bay; but in that evolution, catching sight of the nearing black hull of the ship; seemingly seeing in it the source of all his persecutions; bethinking it - it may be - a larger and nobler foe; of a sudden, he bore down upon its advancing prow, smiting his jaws amid fiery showers of foam.
Ahab staggered; his hand smote his forehead. "I grow blind; hands! stretch out before me that I may yet grope my way. Is't night?"
"The whale! The ship!" cried the cringing oarsmen.
"Oars! oars Slope downwards to thy depths, O sea, that ere it be for ever too late, Ahab may slide this last, last time upon his mark; I see: the ship! the ship! Dash on, my men! Will ye not save my ship?"
But as the oarsmen violently forced their boat through the sledge-hammering seas, the before whale-smitten bow-ends of two planks burst through, and in an instant almost, the temporarily disabled boat lay nearly level with the waves; its half-wading, splashing crew, trying hard to stop the gap and bale out the pouring water.
Meantime, for that one beholding instant, Tashtego's mast-head hammer remained suspended in his hand; and the red
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flag, half-wrapping him as with a plaid, then streamed itself straight out from him, as his own forward-flowing heart; while Starbuck and Stubb, standing upon the bowsprit beneath, caught sight of the down-coming monster just as soon as he.
"The whale, the whale! Up helm, up helm! Oh, all ye sweet powers of air, now hug me close! Let not Starbuck die, if die he must, in a woman's fainting fit. Up helm, I say - ye fools, the jaw! the jaw! Is this the end of all my bursting prayers? all my life-long fidelities? Oh, Ahab, Ahab, lo, thy work. Steady! helmsman, steady. Nay, nay! Up helm again! He turns to meet us! Oh, his unappeasable brow drives on towards one, whose duty tells him he cannot depart. My God, stand by me now!"
"Stand not by me, but stand under me, whoever you are that will now help Stubb; for Stubb, too, sticks here. I grin at thee, thou grinning whale! Who ever helped Stubb, or kept Stubb awake, but Stubb's own unwinking eye? And now poor Stubb goes to bed upon a mattrass that is all too soft; would it were stuffed with brushwood! I grin at thee, thou grinning whale! Look ye, sun, moon, and stars! I call ye assassins of as good a fellow as ever spouted up his ghost. For all that, I would yet ring glasses with ye, would ye but hand the cup! Oh, oh! oh, oh! thou grinning whale, but there'll be plenty of gulping soon! Why fly ye not, O Ahab! For me, off shoes and jacket to it; let Stubb die in his drawers! A most mouldy and over salted death, though; - cherries! cherries! cherries! Oh, Flask, for one red cherry ere we die!"
"Cherries? I only wish that we were where they grow. Oh, Stubb, I hope my poor mother's drawn my part-pay ere this; if not, few coppers will now come to her, for the voyage is up."
From the ship's bows, nearly all the seamen now hung inactive; hammers, bits of plank, lances, and harpoons, mechanically retained in their hands, just as they had darted from their various employments; all their enchanted eyes intent upon the whale, which from side to side strangely vibrating his predestinating head, sent a broad band of overspreading semicircular foam before him as he rushed. Retribution, swift vengeance, eternal malice were in his whole aspect, and spite of all that mortal man could do, the solid white buttress of his forehead
page 565
smote the ship's starboard bow, till men and timbers reeled. Some fell flat upon their faces. Like dislodged trucks, the heads of the harpooneers aloft shook on their bull-like necks. Through the breach, they heard the waters pour, as mountain torrents down a flume.
"The ship! The hearse! - the second hearse!" cried Ahab from the boat; "its wood could only be American!"
Diving beneath the settling ship, the whale ran quivering along its keel; but turning under water, swiftly shot to the surface again, far off the other bow, but within a few yards of Ahab's boat, where, for a time, he lay quiescent.
"I turn my body from the sun. What ho, Tashtego! Let me hear thy hammer. Oh! ye three unsurrendered spires of mine; thou uncracked keel; and only god-bullied hull; thou firm deck, and haughty helm, and Pole-pointed prow, - death-glorious ship! must ye then perish, and without me? Am I cut off from the last fond pride of meanest shipwrecked captains? Oh, lonely death on lonely life! Oh, now I feel my topmost greatness lies in my topmost grief. Ho, ho! from all your furthest bounds, pour ye now in, ye bold billows of my whole foregone life, and top this one piled comber of my death! Towards thee I roll, thou all-destroying but unconquering whale; to the last I grapple with thee; from hell's heart I stab at thee; for hate's sake I spit my last breath at thee. Sink all coffins and all hearses to one common pool! and since neither can be mine, let me then tow to pieces, while still chasing thee, though tied to thee, thou damned whale! Thus, I give up the spear!"
The harpoon was darted; the stricken whale flew forward; with igniting velocity the line ran through the groove; - ran foul. Ahab stooped to clear it; he did clear it; but the flying turn caught him round the neck, and voicelessly as Turkish mutes bowstring their victim, he was shot out of the boat, ere the crew knew he was gone. Next instant, the heavy eye-splice in the rope's final end flew out of the stark-empty tub, knocked down an oarsman, and smiting the sea, disappeared in its depths.
For an instant, the tranced boat's crew stood still; then turned. "The ship? Great God, where is the ship?" Soon they through dim, bewildering mediums saw her sidelong fading phantom,
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as in the gaseous Fata Morgana; only the uppermost masts out of water; while fixed by infatuation, or fidelity, or fate, to their once lofty perches, the pagan harpooneers still maintained their sinking lookouts on the sea. And now, concentric circles seized the lone boat itself, and all its crew, and each floating oar, and every lance-pole, and spinning, animate and inanimate, all round and round in one vortex, carried the smallest chip of the Pequod out of sight.
But as the last whelmings intermixingly poured themselves over the sunken head of the Indian at the mainmast, leaving a few inches of the erect spar yet visible, together with long streaming yards of the flag, which calmly undulated, with ironical coincidings, over the destroying billows they almost touched; - at that instant, a red arm and a hammer hovered backwardly uplifted in the open air, in the act of nailing the flag faster and yet faster to the subsiding spar. A sky-hawk that tauntingly had followed the main-truck downwards from its natural home among the stars, pecking at the flag, and incommoding Tashtego there; this bird now chanced to intercept its broad fluttering wing between the hammer and the wood; and simultaneously feeling that etherial thrill, the submerged savage beneath, in his death-gasp, kept his hammer frozen there; and so the bird of heaven, with archangelic shrieks, and his imperial beak thrust upwards, and his whole captive form folded in the flag of Ahab, went down with his ship, which, like Satan, would not sink to hell till she had dragged a living part of heaven along with her, and helmeted herself with it.
Now small fowls flew screaming over the yet yawning gulf; a sullen white surf beat against its steep sides; then all collapsed, and the great shroud of the sea rolled on as it rolled five thousand years ago.
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Edited to correct formatting problems of quoted post/s.
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(Out of deep respect, I am briefly borrowing Maxey's posting spirit and style.)
A far more productive use for large volumes of hot air, IMO:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSHGKpRJ3Cc
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"sam,"
People here and in other forums have mentioned again and again how they have been watched, threatened on the phone, had their computers destroyed, and their very lives threatened. Just in the past months subpoenas have been served to different forums against those who have deared to bring to light the evil deeds of your master, Danny Shelton. What else needs to follow? Murder? Because this is all that is left, and I don't know if you and the bunch of thugs and TERRORISTS you belong to would have any conscience troubles going even so far. I am still trying to classify you: NEO NAZI? FASCISTS? A modern branch of the KU KLUX KLAN who doesn't discriminate between colors?
When people like Danny Shelton and his thugs ( among whom are you, "anyman," "Ian," "Donna," and others) launch an assault on thousands of people in a desperate effort to hide the truth about Danny Shelton's gross mistreatment of Linda, his deceptive financial dealings, his dirty personal life, and his intimidating and threatening actions, including the hiring of ELEVEN ATTORNEYS in an attempt to silence TWO BROKE AMATEURS, then SOMETHING BIG IS HIDING IN THE "PROPHET'S CLOSET."
Your hysterical propaganda in Danny Shelton's favor, the distortion of FACTS, the misdirection of information, and all similar tactics are a WASTE OF TIME. You are dealing on this forum with intelligent people who know to separate FACT from FICTION, TRUTH from DECEPTION.
Go and hang out with your gang of thugs. You are not needed or welcomed here. I think that I can speak for most of us here on this forum in this matter.
Eduard
:ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: Are you saying that stuff with a straight face? Unbelievable. IMO you have been watching too many movies. All I can say is that you have a rude awakening coming.
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Edited to separate quoted post from original post.
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"sam,"
Quote: "All I can say is that you have a rude awakening coming."
More threats? Thank you! You are working hard to confirm my previous statements.
When the "leader" of a "Gospel Ministry" uses donations (among which are tithes) to pay eleven attorneys in order to shut up two broke amateurs who have blown the whistle on him, when he tries to stifle any discussion about his very unacceptable actions, when he uses various means and various people to threaten, intimidate, and abuse mentally and physically people who disapprove of his totally unchristian and even illegal behaviour, then it is clear that his work is not of God, and that he has crossed the line into lawlessness. When he accuses his wife of adultery in a public broadcast, never provides evidence for her alleged adultery, and threatens and forbids her to defend herself, then the facts are clear, and there is no need for any other evidence that he is an evil man.
Please, note, that the facts I have mentioned above are nothing more than COMMON KNOWLEDGE. I have never been a personal witness of Danny Shelton's personal actions. All I know is from what Danny Shelton has revealed about himself and Linda in public. I don't claim any special knowledge of the issues between Danny and Linda, and between Danny Shelton and Joy&Pickle either. If you ask someone to read for you the messages I have posted in this forum you will find out that they belong to the following categories:
1. Surprise at the very poor thinking abilities manifested by the people Danny Shelton has send to this forum to disseminate misinformation and deception.
2. Surprise at the very poor English writing skills manifested by the people Danny Shelton has sent to this forum to disseminate misinformation and deception.
3. Outrage at the blatant and ruthless attacks against the people in this forum who exercised their freedom of speech (It is guaranteed in the Constitution - did you know?) to express opinions and conviction which differ from those helo by Danny Shelton and his troups, and to speak out against intimidation, threats, and abuse.
Some people might call my messages "flaming." I call them an expression of outrage at the abuses Danny Shelton and his troups have committed against GOD'S PEOPLE.
So, what is going to be the "rude awakening coming" against me? Are you people going to set my home on fire? Are you going to beat me up, or kidnap my family? Are you going to shoot me and the members of my family? Please, be kind and make your threats a little more explicit. Maybe I can save my life, and the life of my family!
Eduard
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At this point, the only appropriate response to your vitriol is, "Get over yourself!"
"sam,"
Quote: "All I can say is that you have a rude awakening coming."
More threats? Thank you! You are working hard to confirm my previous statements.
When the "leader" of a "Gospel Ministry" uses donations (among which are tithes) to pay eleven attorneys in order to shut up two broke amateurs who have blown the whistle on him, when he tries to stifle any discussion about his very unacceptable actions, when he uses various means and various people to threaten, intimidate, and abuse mentally and physically people who disapprove of his totally unchristian and even illegal behaviour, then it is clear that his work is not of God, and that he has crossed the line into lawlessness. When he accuses his wife of adultery in a public broadcast, never provides evidence for her alleged adultery, and threatens and forbids her to defend herself, then the facts are clear, and there is no need for any other evidence that he is an evil man.
Please, note, that the facts I have mentioned above are nothing more than COMMON KNOWLEDGE. I have never been a personal witness of Danny Shelton's personal actions. All I know is from what Danny Shelton has revealed about himself and Linda in public. I don't claim any special knowledge of the issues between Danny and Linda, and between Danny Shelton and Joy&Pickle either. If you ask someone to read for you the messages I have posted in this forum you will find out that they belong to the following categories:
1. Surprise at the very poor thinking abilities manifested by the people Danny Shelton has send to this forum to disseminate misinformation and deception.
2. Surprise at the very poor English writing skills manifested by the people Danny Shelton has sent to this forum to disseminate misinformation and deception.
3. Outrage at the blatant and ruthless attacks against the people in this forum who exercised their freedom of speech (It is guaranteed in the Constitution - did you know?) to express opinions and conviction which differ from those helo by Danny Shelton and his troups, and to speak out against intimidation, threats, and abuse.
Some people might call my messages "flaming." I call them an expression of outrage at the abuses Danny Shelton and his troups have committed against GOD'S PEOPLE.
So, what is going to be the "rude awakening coming" against me? Are you people going to set my home on fire? Are you going to beat me up, or kidnap my family? Are you going to shoot me and the members of my family? Please, be kind and make your threats a little more explicit. Maybe I can save my life, and the life of my family!
Eduard
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When the "leader" of a "Gospel Ministry" uses donations (among which are tithes) to pay eleven attorneys in order to shut up two broke amateurs who have blown the whistle on him, when he tries to stifle any discussion about his very unacceptable actions, when he uses various means and various people to threaten, intimidate, and abuse mentally and physically people who disapprove of his totally unchristian and even illegal behaviour, then it is clear that his work is not of God...
Well said.
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When the "leader" of a "Gospel Ministry" uses donations (among which are tithes) to pay eleven attorneys in order to shut up two broke amateurs who have blown the whistle on him, when he tries to stifle any discussion about his very unacceptable actions, when he uses various means and various people to threaten, intimidate, and abuse mentally and physically people who disapprove of his totally unchristian and even illegal behaviour, then it is clear that his work is not of God...
Well said.
Exactly! Certainly, none with integrity.
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Isn't it strange that Tammy changed her eBay ID on June 18, 2008. That is when this thread was going strong. Follow the dates back to the 16th and follow all the posts about eBay rules.
Sam;
Sometimes you just can't go by what people say. Tammy told you she has Never had a store, but she did. Now, did she have more than one store?
There was a Three Angels Clothing ... ... ... ...
Where did all the feedback go?
This is what happened when the name changes. It is how 3ABN lost their feed back. Why would you WANT to get rid of feedback? Is it because we don't want prying eye to see what was sold or bought? Why do they NOT want that? Is it because they have something to hide?
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Isn't it strange that Tammy changed her eBay ID on June 18, 2008. That is when this thread was going strong. Follow the dates back to the 16th and follow all the posts about eBay rules.
Sam;
Sometimes you just can't go by what people say. Tammy told you she has Never had a store, but she did. Now, did she have more than one store?
There was a Three Angels Clothing ... ... ... ...
Where did all the feedback go?
This is what happened when the name changes. It is how 3ABN lost their feed back. Why would you WANT to get rid of feedback? Is it because we don't want prying eye to see what was sold or bought? Why do they NOT want that? Is it because they have something to hide?
I haven't followed all the feedback posts. But ebay has within the last few months changed several rules concerning seller's.
If you simply change the name of an existing account and nothing more a paper trail and feedback stays with you.
If you open another account completely with a different email address while closing previous you can no longer bring feedback forward. The best a person can and usually does that has good feedback is refer to it in their current listings such as this is a ....new name to serve you better yada,yada yada, however we are not new to ebay, go to link and read what others have had to say.........
Those wishing for some reason not wanting to let buyers know they are same seller don't say anything. Sometimes they have such low feedback they keep starting over.
Before if you closed one account and opened another you could bring your feedback, or you could merge it all into one account if you had two existing accounts going and wanted to scale back to one. You can no longer do that
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By now, I am sure everyone has noticed that Tammy's comments about never having a store, have been taken off of the 3ABN Defended site.
However, there is one other item they will probably remove soon.
Q. When did you begin using PayPal? Was it because of something you read on Club Adventist?
A. lol, We began using PayPal in 2003. I never heard of Club Adventist until about 8 or 9 months ago and certainly have never been there.
This is not correct. They started using PayPal in 2005. All of their sellers were required to use PayPal, but not 3ABN eBay. After I had a very detailed post about merchant accounts, credit card machines and how no one really knows whose account is on the credit card machine.
Maybe I need to go over that post I had over on CA. That is when 3ABN started using PayPal. It most definitely was NOT in 2003 as it says above. Will they remove this from 3ABN Defended also?
Isn't it strange that Tammy changed her eBay ID on June 18, 2008. That is when this thread was going strong. Follow the dates back to the 16th and follow all the posts about eBay rules.
Sam;
Sometimes you just can't go by what people say. Tammy told you she has Never had a store, but she did. Now, did she have more than one store?
There was a Three Angels Clothing ... ... ... ...
Where did all the feedback go?
This is what happened when the name changes. It is how 3ABN lost their feed back. Why would you WANT to get rid of feedback? Is it because we don't want prying eyes to see what was sold or bought or who got the money? Why do they NOT want that? Is it because they have something to hide?
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Readers, if you go to 3ABN Defended and look at the post made on June 16 under the subject Straight Answers to EBay Questions you will find the truth that was spoken in error here.
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Readers, if you go to 3ABN Defended and look at the post made on June 16 under the subject Straight Answers to EBay Questions you will find the truth that was spoken in error here.
When I made my post that the message had been removed. It was not there. Now it is. The proof is below. I had to put the print out here in case things change again. Below you will see all posts under eBay the were posted on June 16, 2008. This is a copy of of the times all posts were made. These are in the order from 3ABN Defended and the time they posted.
Posted in this order.
1:29 am
1:31 am
5:10 pm
1:25 am
Do you see what I see? How can a post that was the first post on June 16 at 1:25 AM be posted after the post at 5:10 PM? It cant. The first post made on June 16 was removed, then put back in at the wrong place..
Proof was also posted that Tammy did have a store named Tammy's Variety Outlet. You can find the PDF files here at Adventtalk.com. Also they did not use PayPal in 2003. It was in 2005.
This is the proof as of 3:45 AM, June 18, 2008. Lets see if it gets fixed really fast. What are they hiding?
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/3abnDefended/message/92
Re: STRAIGHT ANSWERS TO EBAY QUESTIONS
... are ... from ... emails.html> .Message ... complete ... nan_don ... SHOP_W0QQcfidZ3472278QQcftokenZe2ff\ ... eBay ... link ... the ... complete ... (4052 ...
sam11584 Jun 16, 2008 1:29 am
Re: STRAIGHT ANSWERS TO EBAY QUESTIONS
... they ... eBay ... sale.html> . ... from ... certainly ... point." ... above ... eBay ... sale.html> . ... since ... with ... eBay ... sale.html> . ... from...
sam11584 Jun 16, 2008 1:31 am
Re: STRAIGHT ANSWERS TO EBAY QUESTIONS
... originated ... protection ... name ... An ... the ... Angels. ... of ... protection ... &ssPageName=ADME:X:CEM:US:1181> ... this ... originated ... ... Donna
donna_writes Jun 16, 2008 5:10 pm
Re: STRAIGHT ANSWERS TO EBAY QUESTIONS
... the ... amount ... that ... register.... ... what ... http://www.adventtalk.com/forums/index.php/topic,565.msg7962.html#msg7 96\ ... begins ... ask is ... ...
sam11584 Jun 16, 2008 1:25 am
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Messages could be listed out of chronological order depending on when replies are made and to what messages those replies are made. A later reply to an earlier reply to the original message will be listed before later replies to the original message.
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Thank you Bob for calling me on this. I was wrong. I did not take the hierarchy into consideration. Today, I went and check my copy of all the posts about 3ABN eBay. Tammy's comments were exactly where it is now.
My sincere apology to the 3ABN Defended Yahoo group. I will be much more careful in the future.
Pray for me as I pray for you. I did not intend to bring harm and want to ask for every one's forgiveness on both sides.
However, this does not negate the fact that Tammy did have a store called Tammy's Variety Outlet, or the fact that 3ABN did not start PayPal in 2003, but in 2005.
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However, this does not negate the fact that Tammy did have a store called Tammy's Variety Outlet, or the fact that 3ABN did not start PayPal in 2003, but in 2005.
What was the significance of 3ABN starting PayPal in 2005 instead of 2003?
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Before 2005, credit card machines were used at 3ABN eBay.. The requirement to get a merchant account, and get the credit card machine, is that you have a business. That is all I have to do.
I have set up many credit card machines merchant accounts. At one place, I set up 2 credit card machines. One went to one account and the other went to another account. The machines were clearly marked, but sure enough someone used the wrong credit card machine! Then you have to get it all straightened out.
At another place where I worked, a new employee traded out the business machine with a personal account. It didn't last long for me to catch it. One day there were no sales. That was not right! She brought her cc machine to work and changed them out. Her employments lasted less than one week. Charges were filed.
I made a 3abn eBay purchase and had to pay by credit card because they did not use PayPal. My credit card statement did not say 3ABN. Why would I question the credit card machines? Why would they say the were using PayPal in 2003 when it was not until 2005? Beats me. Go figure.
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A month or so ago I was looking for a file and it was gone. I searched the computer and it was no where to be found. I scratched my head and did a total search of even the text in each file looking for it. It was a file that was ongoing and I added to it every once in a while. It was a file named "eBay Feedback." Every time I saw a nice comment left in someones feedback, I would copy it and put it in the file and customize it for me to use when I left feedback for others.
I wonder if the computer visitors thought they had found that missing feedback at 3ABN! When it dawned on me, I cracked up! All I had to do was go to my favorite sellers and get my lost data back and of course I have added more to my new file. However, this time I named it "eBay Feedback Samples." Please don't delete this again. This file has nothing to do with 3ABN's lost eBay feedback for 1998 - 2002. Sorry.
I hear tell I am not the only one having computer difficulties. Was this what the subpoena was all about? They just needed our IP addresses to hack in and delete 3ABN files. As a bonus they got names to be able to harm their character. When do we get to subpoena them to find out their IDs and IP addresses so we can do background searches on them just as they have done to us.
No, I could never do it to them. Christ asks me to treat them as I would want to be treated. I wish they had done that to/for us. I have forgiven them and I still have my eBay feedback.
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A month or so ago I was looking for a file and it was gone. I searched the computer and it was no where to be found. I scratched my head and did a total search of even the text in each file looking for it. It was a file that was ongoing and I added to it every once in a while. It was a file named "eBay Feedback." Every time I saw a nice comment left in someones feedback, I would copy it and put it in the file and customize it for me to use when I left feedback for others.
I wonder if the computer visitors thought they had found that missing feedback at 3ABN! When it dawned on me, I cracked up! All I had to do was go to my favorite sellers and get my lost data back and of course I have added more to my new file. However, this time I named it "eBay Feedback Samples." Please don't delete this again. This file has nothing to do with 3ABN's lost eBay feedback for 1998 - 2002. Sorry.
I hear tell I am not the only one having computer difficulties. Was this what the subpoena was all about? They just needed our IP addresses to hack in and delete 3ABN files. As a bonus they got names to be able to harm their character. When do we get to subpoena them to find out their IDs and IP addresses so we can do background searches on them just as they have done to us.
No, I could never do it to them. Christ asks me to treat them as I would want to be treated. I wish they had done that to/for us. I have forgiven them and I still have my eBay feedback.
Considering the events of the last few days, I am devastated. They say it is over; however, it isn't over with me yet.
Several days ago I received a PM from a member to talk about the 2000 audit. I replied that I had that file and I did not want to destroy 3ABN. The very next morning, I turned my computer, and Windows came up in a fix mode. My files had been changed. It took forever for it to fix the null files. Guess what files were gone?
All five of the pdf files found here:
http://www.save-3abn.com/3abn-property-tax-case-entire-public-record.htm
I laughed because I have the whole ball of wax on removable storage. That is when I wrote what I did about the 2000 audit. However, I did not post it until things progressed. I have a lot of files on my hard drive, but these were only files I was using at the time. The rest is on DVD and removable storage.
I posted about the audit and added a few comments after the fact.
Then I got up and my computer opened up with all kinds of red alerts. My data had changed again! It took forever to get my firewall up and running along with Windows defend and my virus and scan came up. Everything security was turned off!
It had to check all my drives! Guess what? They have removed all my 3ABN information from my hard drive. In fact, they took everything on that drive. All of my files and folders are empty. Yeah, all of it! This is so unnecessary. Please stop. You did not get most of my eBay files. What you got was files saved from the save-3ABN site, and several other things I have used frequently.
You deleted some files with my photos. This is so uncalled for.
My correspondence with the IRS is not on my hard drive. I believe the Criminal Investigation is not over. I have left a message with my IRS point of contact. I will find out if it is really over. I am also going to ask for protection. This is about the 6th or 7th time this has happens. This is so un-Christ like!
Telling keeps me safer. There are several questions that I still need answered.
Tammy said she has NEVER had a store. Why would she lie? Yes, I still have a copy of an item Tammy was selling at her STORE! Yes, she had a store. The printout was done in 2006. Would her memory have forgotten that so soon?
The name of her store was Tammy’s Variety Outlet. All I can ask is why lie? Could it be that 3ABN items were sold on her site? 3ABN did not get the proceeds from these certain sales. Tammy did. Could this be where all that missing feedback is?
As Tammy explained the procedures and processes, she made a comment that raised my eyebrows. She said the items are received and once they were sold, they sent the information to the Donation center and then they sent the donor a receipt.
When I made a purchase from the 3ABN store, I was sent a cash donation receipt. It clearly said that I “HAD NOT RECEIVED ANY GOODS OR SERVICES.” However, I did receive goods that I purchased.. Do they do this to all that purchase items from the store? What a windfall! Was this a fluke? If it happened more than once, there is a problem.
What is wrong with what she said?
All donations of goods or services should be receipted at the time of the donation. That is why every donor of goods should be given and IRS Form 8283 that has a Control Number on it. There should be 3 copies with the same control number on it
#1. Copy 1. The donor gets the original WITHOUT the Fair Market Value on it. The donor leaves with their IRS 8283 IRS Form that has all of 3ABN’s contact information on the form. 3ABN should also write a description of the donated item on all copies
#2. Copy 2 goes to Accounting once 3ABN’s Fair Market Value has been assigned and noted on both of 3ABN’s copies. They each bear the same control number as the original 8283. Accounting posts the receipt of an asset using the Control number as the asset identification number.
#3. Copy 3 stays with the item until it is sold. Once it is sold, the sales price is recorded on the Sales copy of the 8283. Then it goes to accounting so the sales price is posted to a contra account under the same control # where it was originally posted. This will create a gain or loss.
Remember, the DONOR is responsible for assessing the Fair Market Value and attaching whatever they used to arrive at that appraisal of Fair Market Value attached to their form 8283. They will use their 8283 with attachments to receive a deduction on their tax returns.
The 3ABN copy #1 of the 8283 they gave the donor with the description of the item and assess a Fair market value for 3ABN. Never does 3ABN see the Fair Market Value the donor has supplied and 3ABN does not share their Fair Market Value. Copy #2 goes immediately to Accounting to be posted as an asset. The Asset Control Number is also the Identification Number. The copy #3 of the 8283 stays with the item until it is back to 3ABN Accounting with information of the sale.
Now there is a record of receipt in accounting with the assessed value, and a copy showing disposal. These 8383’s get filed in numerical order. Every month the computer needs to check the control numbers listed. No control number used should be missing. If one is missing, the hunt is on! If a form 8283 gets voided, all 3 copies are turned into accounting right away.
This stops the temptation of seeing a donated items and using it for yourself, or giving it to your brother or sister. It is transparent! It is honest. It follows GAAP.
As for me, remember, IRS IT forensics can find out who was on my computer and took my information. I believe all of us understand what has happened again, again, again, again, again, and again. Please stop.
You have many many stories and think many things.
All say where is the letter? where is the letter? Many who say that also say I will ask the IRS myself, or all who say that already said "I talked to IRS" All who say so never post what IRS tells them about investigation. I
You say you work with IRS, You say:
"I believe the Criminal Investigation is not over. I have left a message with my IRS point of contact. I will find out if it is really over. "
Then you also never post what the IRS contact tell you.
Why?
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How is it that someone who wants us to believe their English is bad knows how to use quotation marks?? :dunno: :dunno: :dunno:
so sera you have many stories and think many things. so many say there is letter from IRS but you not post it.
why?
danny shelton first say there is no investigation. now jim gilley say it is over. who you want us to believe.
WHY??
You have many many stories and think many things.
All say where is the letter? where is the letter? Many who say that also say I will ask the IRS myself, or all who say that already said "I talked to IRS" All who say so never post what IRS tells them about investigation. I
You say you work with IRS, You say:
"I believe the Criminal Investigation is not over. I have left a message with my IRS point of contact. I will find out if it is really over. "
Then you also never post what the IRS contact tell you.
Why?
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How is it that someone who wants us to believe their English is bad knows how to use quotation marks?? :dunno: :dunno: :dunno:
so sera you have many stories and think many things. so many say there is letter from IRS but you not post it.
why?
danny shelton first say there is no investigation. now jim gilley say it is over. who you want us to believe.
WHY??
Maybe Jim Gilley only pawn in game of life.
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Interesting to read
Danny Shelton
Registered: 11/21/04
Posts: 63
Loc: Illinois, USA I want to apologize to members of CA that I have tried to either defend myself or 3ABN for our decisions concerning Linda. The Lord has convicted me numerous times that He wants to defend my battles for me, yet I sometimes continue to try to do it myself. I ask God and you to forgive me for trying to do His job. It makes no difference that what I have written I believe to be true, it simply makes a difference that I could be using valuable time promoting the gospel through 3ABN, rather than getting caught up in all the muck. I know my actions have not been pleasing to God. As I mentioned before, both Linda and I are human and have our problems, but I've decided not to compound them by getting caught up in conversations with some of you all who seem to thrive on gossip. Some of you have great intentions and in fact have told me to stop communication with what you called the"wolves". I need to take this advice and not come down from the wall of work that the Lord has for me to do. If you have sincere questions about 3ABN I am still happy to answer, if you have questions about who's been right and who's been wrong in this whole situation with Linda and me, then you need to ask someone else. There are plenty of people who know very little but are willing to talk alot. I've read some of those comments that people have sent me from some of you. It's my prayer that we all begin to focus on the fact that Jesus is coming soon and ask ourselves where do we personally stand with our creator.
Linda is a wonderful person and I love her very much. I'm apologizing to her for talking when I have not needed to. No excuses offered. I need to spend my time praying for her rather than to get caught up in critizing her. The Lord has shown me it doesn't make any difference if she is right or wrong, I still should be there for her. When she is hurting I am hurting. When I hurt, I'm sure she hurts. I've let some enemies of God lure me from time to time into debate over this situation and with God's help I don't want to do it anymore. God has shown me that he is going to bless His 3ABN no matter what Satan throws our way. It is His network. I don't have to defend it for him. I have felt that what I have been doing and saying has not been to defend myself, but 3ABN. I have always felt that I love Linda enough that I personally would take all the blame for this whole situation, if it would help her to see how much I love her. But I have felt I have said what I have said to defend God's network, but the Lord has impressed me that he will take care of His own and take care of His enemies also. He always has and always will.
I am making an attempt to stay in contact with Linda to see if we both are willing for God to do a miracle in our lives together. God is ready. I guess time will tell if we are ready.
God Bless you all!
Danny
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Sounds like an increase took effect due to the "rumormongers" Perhaps they should be encouraged so 3ABN can really grow.
Giving
Stan Jensen
Carpe Diem!!!
Registered: 09/15/06
Posts: 3306
Loc: 49.05° Lat- 122.3° Long I have been told that both the donor base and the amount of financial support has continued to increase at 3ABN over the past year. Is this correct?
Thanks
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Adventist Food Store restocked
http://adventistfoodstore.com/
Top Notify Email Post
#17168 - 11/27/04 12:20 AM Re: QUESTION: Giving [Re: Halfstep Denise]
Danny Shelton
Registered: 11/21/04
Posts: 63
Loc: Illinois, USA Yes Stan, that is correct. We have seen some real miracles in spite of what the Devil is trying to do. Those coming against 3ABN are causing people to see that Satan is trying to stop the gospel, thus we have seen an increase in both the finances of 3ABN this year as well as the amount of donars are up by approx. 30%. Our income for that past nearly 6 months is record high for this time of year. We are spending more money this year because we have added thousands of $$$$ to our monthly costs to add new Satellites in space. We are now on 7 Sat. costing over $200,000 per month. Everything 3ABN has is paid for. We have Zero long term debt. Yet we have no reserve, but somehow every month God impresses His people so that when it's all said and done we have enough to pay our bills and to keep going and growing into all the world! This is a miracle. If 3ABN is true to it's mission that God called us to do, then he will bless it no matter what people do or say to destroy it.
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understand the legal expenses of the current lawsuit over save3ABN will not be funded by 3ABN donors?
Do I understand that correct?
Top Notify Email Post
#122389 - 04/23/07 03:23 AM Re: Donor funds and lawsuits [Re: Stan Jensen]
Danny Shelton
Registered: 11/21/04
Posts: 63
Loc: Illinois, USA That is true. We have a donor who has been donating funds for some time for the purpose of legal bills incurred whether lawsuit or not. He is not taking a tax donation for these donations.
He and his family believe in 3ABN and the decisions we have made. They like our 3ABN Board have decided that people who are accusing myself and the 3ABN board of gross misconduct and out right crimes need to be held accountable.
We have filed a lawsuit against two individuals in particular to begin with.
I won't say anymore on that subject right now.
_________________________
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Danny Shelton
Registered: 11/21/04
Posts: 63
Loc: Illinois, USA I want to apologize to members of CA that I have tried to either defend myself or 3ABN for our decisions concerning Linda. The Lord has convicted me numerous times that He wants to defend my battles for me, yet I sometimes continue to try to do it myself. I ask God and you to forgive me for trying to do His job. It makes no difference that what I have written I believe to be true, it simply makes a difference that I could be using valuable time promoting the gospel through 3ABN, rather than getting caught up in all the muck. I know my actions have not been pleasing to God. As I mentioned before, both Linda and I are human and have our problems, but I've decided not to compound them by getting caught up in conversations with some of you all who seem to thrive on gossip. Some of you have great intentions and in fact have told me to stop communication with what you called the"wolves". I need to take this advice and not come down from the wall of work that the Lord has for me to do. If you have sincere questions about 3ABN I am still happy to answer, if you have questions about who's been right and who's been wrong in this whole situation with Linda and me, then you need to ask someone else. There are plenty of people who know very little but are willing to talk alot. I've read some of those comments that people have sent me from some of you. It's my prayer that we all begin to focus on the fact that Jesus is coming soon and ask ourselves where do we personally stand with our creator.
Linda is a wonderful person and I love her very much. I'm apologizing to her for talking when I have not needed to. No excuses offered. I need to spend my time praying for her rather than to get caught up in critizing her. The Lord has shown me it doesn't make any difference if she is right or wrong, I still should be there for her. When she is hurting I am hurting. When I hurt, I'm sure she hurts. I've let some enemies of God lure me from time to time into debate over this situation and with God's help I don't want to do it anymore. God has shown me that he is going to bless His 3ABN no matter what Satan throws our way. It is His network. I don't have to defend it for him. I have felt that what I have been doing and saying has not been to defend myself, but 3ABN. I have always felt that I love Linda enough that I personally would take all the blame for this whole situation, if it would help her to see how much I love her. But I have felt I have said what I have said to defend God's network, but the Lord has impressed me that he will take care of His own and take care of His enemies also. He always has and always will.
I am making an attempt to stay in contact with Linda to see if we both are willing for God to do a miracle in our lives together. God is ready. I guess time will tell if we are ready.
God Bless you all!
Danny
I have a problem with this quote. IF Danny Shelton had really typed this out, why has he not made it true? Intimidation, harassment, threats, spying, hacking computers, and other problems Danny has been instigator of or ordered to happen has not stopped yet. As soon as he quits then I will believe what he says.
If you don't call "three people from the 3ABN board either calling or arriving in person to threaten the CEO of a little mission program called Gospel Outreach who are all retired volunteers doing God's work by spreading the gospel to the 10/40 window" not threatening or intimidating or harassing, then I don't know what you would call it. So as far as I am concerned Danny has NOT stopped and he was the "Guy in Charge", not a victim being encouraged by those around him.
Oh how I do wish and pray that the statement Danny Shelton made were true. I would be thrilled. Of course con artists are good at what they do... "CON" That is why they are called "Con Artists".
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I can't find the other dealing with no falling donations due to rumors right now, Don't have the time to search either for that or the NO IRS investigation.
Perhaps someone else has it or will have to wait
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Yes, through my 75 years of life I have sought what is good, what is honorable, and what is true. God has not deceived me, and what I have seen, heard, and experiences is not an empty claim, no matter what you are attempting to make out of it.
As long as you only look at one side of things you can document and claim all you want, and it is still worthless as long you ignore the picture of what really happened.
Where you there when Dr. Arild Abrahamsen was treating Linda's son? I was. Where you there when Linda went to see how her son was doing there in Norway? I was. Where you there when Arild invited the group for dinner - Brenda, Linda, Nathan? I was there too, and therefore I know that some reports of what happened there are totally false. And just those reports indicate that something is fishy. It appears as if someone is trying to make up things that never were. I could go on for a long time. This is not rendering a judgment. It is telling what really happened. Did you see some really telling cigarette stubs? - well, that is enough for now.
Yes, I am making a diligent search - and I pray that some day you will too, something that is better than what you have produced till now. Even if you might have some assistance that you think is good.