Advent Talk
Issues & Concerns Category => 3ABN => Topic started by: Artiste on June 30, 2008, 11:05:58 AM
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The announcement from 3ABN defenders that the IRS has cleared 3ABN from financial wrongdoing has been accompanied by the proposition that this should now also invalidate other allegations that have been raised against Danny Shelton/3ABN.
Assuming for the moment that Danny Shelton/3ABN have done nothing wrong in the financial area (which some say is not the case, IRS notwithstanding), what about the other allegations?
3ABN has never expressed contrition over the actions of Danny Shelton's brother, Tommy Shelton, alleged molestor of young males, who continues to appear in 3ABN musical features, accompanying on the keyboard more young males.
3ABN continues to harbor and promote within its management known spousal abusers.
3ABN operatives continue to oppose Linda Shelton's ministry for no apparent reason except that of malice.
Addendum:
Considering the above, one would also have to ask: Why does the Seventh-day Adventist church leadership continue to promote and sanction 3ABN activities?
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I'm personally not buying this "all clear" thing. I have no reason to.
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I'm personally not buying this "all clear" thing. I have no reason to.
Is it possible this is the IRS version of settling out of court as in lawsuits?? No one has to admit to anything.
Our tax attorney, prior IRS auditor had told us that no one is ever found 100% in a Total Compliance audit or criminal tax investigation. Deals can be struck.
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The announcement from 3ABN defenders that the IRS has cleared 3ABN from financial wrongdoing has been accompanied by the proposition that this should now also invalidate other allegations that have been raised against Danny Shelton/3ABN.
Assuming for the moment that Danny Shelton/3ABN have done nothing wrong in the financial area (which some say is not the case, IRS notwithstanding), what about the other allegations?
3ABN has never expressed contrition over the actions of Danny Shelton's brother, Tommy Shelton, alleged molestor of young males, who continues to appear in 3ABN musical features, accompanying on the keyboard more young males.
3ABN continues to harbor and promote within its management known spousal abusers.
3ABN operatives continue to oppose Linda Shelton's ministry for no apparent reason except that of malice.
Addendum:
Considering the above, one would also have to ask: Why does the Seventh-day Adventist church leadership continue to promote and sanction 3ABN activities?
Spousal abusers? Who said? We know who said. The same person that delivered a lot of the financial mismanagement stories. Artiste, shouldn't you think twice about your accusations in light of your own troubles? After all, this 3abn stuff is all speculation and nothing has been proven. Not the case where you are concerned. I wonder how many more of the accusers are hiding their own pasts? It's not as if your identities are secret anymore, they aren't. Certainly all your allegations, defamation, and heresay has been written in a public forum for all to see. When you write something about someone that isn't true, that is defamation. If it is true, that is another story.
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I'm personally not buying this "all clear" thing. I have no reason to.
Is it possible this is the IRS version of settling out of court as in lawsuits?? No one has to admit to anything.
Our tax attorney, prior IRS auditor had told us that no one is ever found 100% in a Total Compliance audit or criminal tax investigation. Deals can be struck.
I believe the 3ABN defenders' reasoning as to the fact that no deal had been struck came from Ronnie Shelton's e-mail which they stated mentioned no such deal.
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Spousal abusers? Who said? We know who said. The same person that delivered a lot of the financial mismanagement stories. Artiste, shouldn't you think twice about your accusations in light of your own troubles? After all, this 3abn stuff is all speculation and nothing has been proven. Not the case where you are concerned. I wonder how many more of the accusers are hiding their own pasts? It's not as if your identities are secret anymore, they aren't. Certainly all your allegations, defamation, and heresay has been written in a public forum for all to see. When you write something about someone that isn't true, that is defamation. If it is true, that is another story.
Are you sure you know who said?
In light of "my own troubles", perhaps you should look further into who said what regarding spousal abuse.
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I'm personally not buying this "all clear" thing. I have no reason to.
Is it possible this is the IRS version of settling out of court as in lawsuits?? No one has to admit to anything.
Our tax attorney, prior IRS auditor had told us that no one is ever found 100% in a Total Compliance audit or criminal tax investigation. Deals can be struck.
Did you accept that statement from your tax attorney as factual?
If 3ABN is indeed found to be in total compliance, and it's found no deals were struck, would you consider this due to the Lord's leading, and accept it?
Or will you continue to look for excuses or justifications for how 3ABN can still be at fault yet declared exonerated?
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Spousal abusers? Who said? We know who said. The same person that delivered a lot of the financial mismanagement stories. Artiste, shouldn't you think twice about your accusations in light of your own troubles? After all, this 3abn stuff is all speculation and nothing has been proven. Not the case where you are concerned. I wonder how many more of the accusers are hiding their own pasts? It's not as if your identities are secret anymore, they aren't. Certainly all your allegations, defamation, and heresay has been written in a public forum for all to see. When you write something about someone that isn't true, that is defamation. If it is true, that is another story.
Are you sure you know who said?
In light of "my own troubles", perhaps you should look further into who said what regarding spousal abuse.
Maybe you would be willing to explain where and with who and how that can be done?
I am willing to ask and check things out.
Please feel free to email me or send me a pm, if you don't want to post about it.
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I'm personally not buying this "all clear" thing. I have no reason to.
Is it possible this is the IRS version of settling out of court as in lawsuits?? No one has to admit to anything.
Our tax attorney, prior IRS auditor had told us that no one is ever found 100% in a Total Compliance audit or criminal tax investigation. Deals can be struck.
Did you accept that statement from your tax attorney as factual?
If 3ABN is indeed found to be in total compliance, and it's found no deals were struck, would you consider this due to the Lord's leading, and accept it?
Or will you continue to look for excuses or justifications for how 3ABN can still be at fault yet declared exonerated?
The problem with the stated premise is manyfold, not the least of which is the state tax case that points out a number of issues and documents these. In addition, we have the statements of 3ABN's own former General Counsel that point to clear issues.
But, last but not least is the documentation we already have and the documentation they are in pitched battles to prevent us from getting
our hands on as evidence.
SO, something just does not add up here and only time and REAL evidence will tell the entire tale.
Gailon Arthur Joy
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This Jubilation and praises and happy talk remind me of a program I watched several months ago. :rabbit:
There was jubilation, :rabbit:praises and lots of happy talk with everyone from the board members surrounding Danny Shelton in the middle and Doug Batchelor on Danny's side. They announced the joining of the two ministries of 3ABN and Amazing Facts. I also remember receiving in the mail the 3ABN World magazine that also included in very small letters I think was on the upper right hand corner "Amazing Facts" with it's own font.
Of course this is only my surmising, false statement and twisting of facts and nasty rumors. My witness cannot be verified. I am considered a Pathalogical Liar.
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I'm personally not buying this "all clear" thing. I have no reason to.
Is it possible this is the IRS version of settling out of court as in lawsuits?? No one has to admit to anything.
Our tax attorney, prior IRS auditor had told us that no one is ever found 100% in a Total Compliance audit or criminal tax investigation. Deals can be struck.
I believe the 3ABN defenders' reasoning as to the fact that no deal had been struck came from Ronnie Shelton's e-mail which they stated mentioned no such deal.
My sources tell me there were no deals, negotiations or settlements. Just an official notice of clean financial records. End of story.
So on your point that you were told no one is every found 100% in compliance....well, that just confirms what we are saying. It is a miracle from God. No doubt He is using it to try and change the evil surmisings about His ministry. Only those filled with hate will ignore His handiwork.
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My sources tell me there were no deals, negotiations or settlements. Just an official notice of clean financial records. End of story.
So on your point that you were told no one is every found 100% in compliance....well, that just confirms what we are saying. It is a miracle from God. No doubt He is using it to try and change the evil surmisings about His ministry. Only those filled with hate will ignore His handiwork.
Guess the record will be the one and only thing to tell the truth that little question in a credible manner if 3ABN allows the official paperwork to be made public.
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I'm personally not buying this "all clear" thing. I have no reason to.
Is it possible this is the IRS version of settling out of court as in lawsuits?? No one has to admit to anything.
Our tax attorney, prior IRS auditor had told us that no one is ever found 100% in a Total Compliance audit or criminal tax investigation. Deals can be struck.
I believe the 3ABN defenders' reasoning as to the fact that no deal had been struck came from Ronnie Shelton's e-mail which they stated mentioned no such deal.
My sources tell me there were no deals, negotiations or settlements. Just an official notice of clean financial records. End of story.
So on your point that you were told no one is every found 100% in compliance....well, that just confirms what we are saying. It is a miracle from God. No doubt He is using it to try and change the evil surmisings about His ministry. Only those filled with hate will ignore His handiwork.
So, when are you reposting your revised 990's to bring them into compliance??? And you are telling me the feds are telling the State they were all wet?
SAM, go back and check those sources!!! Need Carol Maces' number? Probably better luck getting a response from the US Attorney and can't wait to see those letters!!!
If I need to go and Kiss the popes ring and pay pennance on the stairs I need to know as soon as possible. I'll even let you take pictures!!!
Gailon Arthur Joy
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My sources tell me there were no deals, negotiations or settlements. Just an official notice of clean financial records. End of story.
So on your point that you were told no one is every found 100% in compliance....well, that just confirms what we are saying. It is a miracle from God. No doubt He is using it to try and change the evil surmisings about His ministry. Only those filled with hate will ignore His handiwork.
Guess the record will be the one and only thing to tell the truth that little question in a credible manner if 3ABN allows the official paperwork to be made public.
What paperwork? You mean the evidence against Linda? Today was the 30th and still nothing proving Linda ever did a thing wrong. And this was there timetable. Now it is four plus years and they are still claiming an obvious fabrication.
Don't expect 3ABN to produce paperwork without a court order. WE HAVE CERTAINLY LEARNED THAT!!!!
But then, MAYBE it just simply does not exist. What do you think Habenero???
Gailon Arthur Joy
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For someone who claims to have such a grasp on the law and insight into how governmental agencies operate it is strange that you just can't grasp (or maybe you just like the bliss of ignoring it) the idea that the IRS found nothing wrong with the financial dealings and supporting documents they obtained from 3ABN and Danny Shelton.
Now, you can continue to hide behind the thin veil of "knowing it all" but it is growing more thread bare as the days pass . . . wonder how you will respond when the other shoe drops and you are left with nothing to support you and the people you have used to get to this point no longer stand at your side . . .
So, when are you reposting your revised 990's to bring them into compliance??? And you are telling me the feds are telling the State they were all wet?
SAM, go back and check those sources!!! Need Carol Maces' number? Probably better luck getting a response from the US Attorney and can't wait to see those letters!!!
If I need to go and Kiss the popes ring and pay pennance on the stairs I need to know as soon as possible. I'll even let you take pictures!!!
Gailon Arthur Joy
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. . . wonder how you will respond when the other shoe drops and you are left with nothing to support you and the people you have used to get to this point no longer stand at your side . . .
Is this what you think, anyman?
You don't believe that others have reason to continue the battle against 3ABN wrongdoing themselves?
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So on your point that you were told no one is every found 100% in compliance....well, that just confirms what we are saying. It is a miracle from God...Only those filled with hate will ignore His handiwork.
Interesting.
Is this another "3ABN Miracle Story"?
Are you saying that the only way 3ABN could have passed an IRS investigation was through a miracle from God?
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For someone who claims to have such a grasp on the law and insight into how governmental agencies operate it is strange that you just can't grasp (or maybe you just like the bliss of ignoring it) the idea that the IRS found nothing wrong with the financial dealings and supporting documents they obtained from 3ABN and Danny Shelton.
The documents will tell. I guess we have all seen about as much twisting and spinning as we can stomach. Show us the documents.
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So on your point that you were told no one is every found 100% in compliance....well, that just confirms what we are saying. It is a miracle from God...Only those filled with hate will ignore His handiwork.
Interesting.
Is this another "3ABN Miracle Story"?
Are you saying that the only way 3ABN could have passed an IRS investigation was through a miracle from God?
:ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL:
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You have no authority to demand to see them . . . who do you fancy yourself to be? It is amazing that a small - and getting smaller - group of disgruntled continue to think they have a right to demand and receive a private viewing of the evidence. You ask for it hoping 3ABN will acquiesce to your demands whereby you can try and PR the situation into your terms before anyone else has the chance to see and understand.
There are legal proceedings and the constant demands to see the evidence are A.) a totally naive understanding of how legal proceedings flow or B.) an arrogant perception of your personal importance.
There is a law suit. Because of that all evidence will be held and used at the appropriate time. Mr. Gailon Arthur Joy may think he deserves it now - but the FRoCP outline when and how he will receive it . . . even though he considers himself above the rule of law. But remember, there is another shoe waiting to drop . . . will it seal the case against or for Mr. Gailon Arthur Joy and his comrade Mr. Robert Pickle?
God reveals all in His own time. He reveled to you that the financial accusations against 3ABN and Danny were factually challenged and baseless. He reveled that 3ABN and Danny and the BoD are still safely held in His hand as His work is accomplished through this powerful ministry.
If it was missed . . . according to all the information out there 3ABN and Danny were given a clean bill of health . . . no requests to resubmit, no demands to make changes, no settlements, no arrangements . . . just a simple, honest evaluation of the records (100,000+) an acknowledgment that federal tax payer dollars were wasted . . . lots of them, lots and lots of them . . . Wonder if anyone feels a need to apologize for being part and parcel to this needless expenditure of federal tax dollars?
The documents will tell. I guess we have all seen about as much twisting and spinning as we can stomach. Show us the documents.
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anyman, I understand from hints, innuendos, and outright statements from you, Sam and Ian, that you are targeting me.
...I take that as a compliment...it means I must be doing something right.
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No targeting is going on . . . if what has been said hits home, well then, it hits home . . . if someone accidentally comes across publications that provide information about the players in the big picture . . . there is a gravy that works on the gander and goose . . . Maybe you want to PM me with your concerns or accusations . . .
anyman, I understand from hints, innuendos, and outright statements from you, Sam and Ian, that you are targeting me.
...I take that as a compliment...it means I must be doing something right.
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So on your point that you were told no one is every found 100% in compliance....well, that just confirms what we are saying. It is a miracle from God...Only those filled with hate will ignore His handiwork.
Interesting.
Is this another "3ABN Miracle Story"?
Are you saying that the only way 3ABN could have passed an IRS investigation was through a miracle from God?
:ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL:
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So on your point that you were told no one is every found 100% in compliance....well, that just confirms what we are saying. It is a miracle from God...Only those filled with hate will ignore His handiwork.
Interesting.
Is this another "3ABN Miracle Story"?
Are you saying that the only way 3ABN could have passed an IRS investigation was through a miracle from God?
You have no authority to demand to see them . . . who do you fancy yourself to be? It is amazing that a small - and getting smaller - group of disgruntled continue to think they have a right to demand and receive a private viewing of the evidence. You ask for it hoping 3ABN will acquiesce to your demands whereby you can try and PR the situation into your terms before anyone else has the chance to see and understand.
There are legal proceedings and the constant demands to see the evidence are A.) a totally naive understanding of how legal proceedings flow or B.) an arrogant perception of your personal importance.
There is a law suit. Because of that all evidence will be held and used at the appropriate time. Mr. Gailon Arthur Joy may think he deserves it now - but the FRoCP outline when and how he will receive it . . . even though he considers himself above the rule of law. But remember, there is another shoe waiting to drop . . . will it seal the case against or for Mr. Gailon Arthur Joy and his comrade Mr. Robert Pickle?
God reveals all in His own time. He reveled to you that the financial accusations against 3ABN and Danny were factually challenged and baseless. He reveled that 3ABN and Danny and the BoD are still safely held in His hand as His work is accomplished through this powerful ministry.
He sure does. There is still a day of reckoning ahead, for those who have tried to cover up so much.
If it was missed . . . according to all the information out there 3ABN and Danny were given a clean bill of health . . . no requests to resubmit, no demands to make changes, no settlements, no arrangements . . . just a simple, honest evaluation of the records (100,000+) an acknowledgment that federal tax payer dollars were wasted . . . lots of them, lots and lots of them . . . [b]Wonder if anyone feels a need to apologize for being part and parcel to this needless expenditure of federal tax dollars?[/b]
I doubt it. Is Danny/3abn prepared to apologise for using those donations to the Gospel Ministry, for a law suite instead?
The documents will tell. I guess we have all seen about as much twisting and spinning as we can stomach. Show us the documents.
As Habanero says above "Show us the documents"
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God reveals all in His own time. He revealed to you that the financial accusations against 3ABN and Danny were factually challenged and baseless. He revealed that 3ABN and Danny and the BoD are still safely held in His hand as His work is accomplished through this powerful ministry.
Time will show what God has or has not revealed.
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You have no authority to demand to see them . . . who do you fancy yourself to be? It is amazing that a small - and getting smaller - group of disgruntled continue to think they have a right to demand and receive a private viewing of the evidence. You ask for it hoping 3ABN will acquiesce to your demands whereby you can try and PR the situation into your terms before anyone else has the chance to see and understand.
There are legal proceedings and the constant demands to see the evidence are A.) a totally naive understanding of how legal proceedings flow or B.) an arrogant perception of your personal importance.
There is a law suit. Because of that all evidence will be held and used at the appropriate time. Mr. Gailon Arthur Joy may think he deserves it now - but the FRoCP outline when and how he will receive it . . . even though he considers himself above the rule of law. But remember, there is another shoe waiting to drop . . . will it seal the case against or for Mr. Gailon Arthur Joy and his comrade Mr. Robert Pickle?
God reveals all in His own time. He reveled to you that the financial accusations against 3ABN and Danny were factually challenged and baseless. He reveled that 3ABN and Danny and the BoD are still safely held in His hand as His work is accomplished through this powerful ministry.
If it was missed . . . according to all the information out there 3ABN and Danny were given a clean bill of health . . . no requests to resubmit, no demands to make changes, no settlements, no arrangements . . . just a simple, honest evaluation of the records (100,000+) an acknowledgment that federal tax payer dollars were wasted . . . lots of them, lots and lots of them . . . Wonder if anyone feels a need to apologize for being part and parcel to this needless expenditure of federal tax dollars?
I fancy myself to be no one but me. When it comes to demanding documents or proof of anything I would guess I have no more authority than you do. You claim to know why I ask for it and proceed to state your personal opinions as fact. At what point did I tell you the things you attribute as my reasons for asking? Or are you making up stories and spreading rumors that you emphatically state as fact? At what point did I demand a private viewing of "the evidence?" Where did you come up with that? That is, in fact, most assuredly NOT what I want.
So expressing the desire to see evidence as opposed to believing whatever rumors and hearsay is spread on the internet is a reflection of an arrogant perception of personal importance? I am surpised that you see it that way. In my opinion the desire to see proof of what you are told to believe is healthy.
God has certainly not revealed anything to me about 3ABN's status a a paragon of fiscal cleanliness. Opinions expressed by friends of 3ABN on the internet are interesting, and I assume that they bear a certain amount of truth, but they are not divine revelation, in my opinion.
If the IRS investigation of 3ABN is at an end, then I am glad that at least one portion of the drama has concluded. How that actually came about, I don't know, but again, you can say what you have heard from whoever your sources are, but I will consider it hearsay until I see something to substantiate it. And I am sure you will do the same with Gailon, Bob, and many others. It is natural and healthy. Questioning is a good thing and is a part of free society that I appreciate.
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Posted by: Habanero
If the IRS investigation of 3ABN is at an end, then I am glad that at least one portion of the drama has concluded. itHow that actually came about, I don't know, but again, you can say what you have heard from whoever your sources are, but I will consider it hearsay until I see something to substantiate it. And I am sure you will do the same with Gailon, Bob, and many others. It is natural and healthy. Questioning is a good thing and is a part of free society that I appreciate.
:TY: That is a reasonable position which I identify with. The Apostle said, "I will not believe unless I see..."
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Edited to correct formatting error only.
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The announcement from 3ABN defenders that the IRS has cleared 3ABN from financial wrongdoing has been accompanied by the proposition that this should now also invalidate other allegations that have been raised against Danny Shelton/3ABN.
Assuming for the moment that Danny Shelton/3ABN have done nothing wrong in the financial area (which some say is not the case, IRS notwithstanding), what about the other allegations?
3ABN has never expressed contrition over the actions of Danny Shelton's brother, Tommy Shelton, alleged molestor of young males, who continues to appear in 3ABN musical features, accompanying on the keyboard more young males.
3ABN continues to harbor and promote within its management known spousal abusers.
3ABN operatives continue to oppose Linda Shelton's ministry for no apparent reason except that of malice.
Addendum:
Considering the above, one would also have to ask: Why does the Seventh-day Adventist church leadership continue to promote and sanction 3ABN activities?
Hmmm. No one seems to want to address the highlighted issue. Did you notice that, Artiste?
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What happened to anyman\'s post that was #25 last night? Today post #25 is habanero instead.
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The announcement from 3ABN defenders that the IRS has cleared 3ABN from financial wrongdoing has been accompanied by the proposition that this should now also invalidate other allegations that have been raised against Danny Shelton/3ABN.
Assuming for the moment that Danny Shelton/3ABN have done nothing wrong in the financial area (which some say is not the case, IRS notwithstanding), what about the other allegations?
3ABN has never expressed contrition over the actions of Danny Shelton's brother, Tommy Shelton, alleged molestor of young males, who continues to appear in 3ABN musical features, accompanying on the keyboard more young males.
3ABN continues to harbor and promote within its management known spousal abusers.
3ABN operatives continue to oppose Linda Shelton's ministry for no apparent reason except that of malice.
Addendum:
Considering the above, one would also have to ask: Why does the Seventh-day Adventist church leadership continue to promote and sanction 3ABN activities?
Hmmm. No one seems to want to address the highlighted issue. Did you notice that, Artiste?
I do notice that, Duane.
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For those that are upset at this post,please take it to Daryl, if he feels it is out of line or irrelevant,I am sure he will take care of it.
So many wonder why there is so much mistrust and cynicism towards professed Christians. Some of you take a good look inward before you begin professing.
I know I am not the only one that received this. It is not a confidential email as far as I can tell. It is one that confirms my ever growing cynical viewpoint in the integrity of those that represent the denomination in some way.
Hi bonnie,
Turns out the Rumourmongers did NOT have it right.
http://adventistforum.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/175187
No reason whatsoever for the rumormongering, capitalized no less,statement. The beginning of this particular topic does exactly what some so strongly condemn. Repeating from reliable sources derogatory information against others, including Gregory Matthews. A person that is so fond of repeating over and over his disapproval of those repeating gossip as fact. He waves his clean hands by saying...... I might of over stated a bit concerning Gregory. Then I was talking to DS. As a reliable source for information concerning someone that tried to help his ex-spouse is about as intelligent as me asking the fox who ate my chickens.
Not a mature Christian enough to apologize for what he said out of line and with NO FACTS. But in typical communications director speak,"He might have oversated".
One that has refused to allow any negative statement concerning 3ABN, has gone out of his way to bring it up in a mocking derogatory way against those that have concerns. Time and time again,Without provocation.
Now we are again with a deliberate choice of unnecessary descriptive,derogatory wording,he is going to make sure he reaches as many as he can.
Wonder if all the Christians that have had so much angst over the ones that have some very real concerns over 3ABN have a drop of concern for the way a false statement concerning Gregory Matthews is left to leave the wanted impression. If this was considered an apology it fell far short. One like that would have gotten my brothers and I a crack in the mouth. Not because of what we did, but because we lacked the guts and honesty to either apologize and mean it. Or, stick by your guns and don't bother with the "Christian speak"
That is one thing I learned about Gregory early on. If he knows he has inadvertently said something that should not have been said, he is the first to apologize.
What a shame all the railers and whiners about gossip mongering lack the ability or desire to do same.
edited to correct spelling
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That is one thing I learned about Gregory early on. If he knows he has inadvertently said something that should not have been said, he is the first to apologize.
I have always appreciated Gregory Matthews' approach and fairness in his communications.
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For most or at least many of us, the IRS investigation was not the issue at heart.
All of you that think a ruling you have not seen and don't know what transpired clears 3ABN of all wrongdoing,perhaps can now get back to the personal moral character of those that signifies the SDA church to many.
Or is it like so many issues? Money is where it is at, and immoral conduct is just a slightly naughty game.
Most of the defenders have artfully dodged an opinion on certain things that cannot be denied. Whatever will happen now?? What will you defend so stridently?
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That is one thing I learned about Gregory early on. If he knows he has inadvertently said something that should not have been said, he is the first to apologize.
I have always appreciated Gregory Matthews' approach and fairness in his communications.
That isn't any fun. You can't get to much righteous gossipmongering out of a reputation like that
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I know I am not the only one that received this. It is not a confidential email as far as I can tell. It is one that confirms my ever growing cynical viewpoint in the integrity of those that represent the denomination in some way.
Hi bonnie,
Turns out the Rumourmongers did NOT have it right.
http://adventistforum.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/175187
You're right, bonnie. I received one as well. I didn't even know I had made any accusations regarding finances. Stan really needs to do better research on who his emails go to.
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I know I am not the only one that received this. It is not a confidential email as far as I can tell. It is one that confirms my ever growing cynical viewpoint in the integrity of those that represent the denomination in some way.
Hi bonnie,
Turns out the Rumourmongers did NOT have it right.
http://adventistforum.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/175187
Pardon me, but I think his research is just fine. It is ethics, that which he questions in others so mockingly . Perhaps ethics for some is something you hang on the doorknob as you enter and pick up again as you leave
You're right, bonnie. I received one as well. I didn't even know I had made any accusations regarding finances. Stan really needs to do better research on who his emails go to.
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Edited to correct quoted post formatting.
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anyman, I understand from hints, innuendos, and outright statements from you, Sam and Ian, that you are targeting me.
...I take that as a compliment...it means I must be doing something right.
If getting targeted means you are doing right, then 3ABN must be ready for translation!
I believe anymans point is that you and others have no right to throw stones when you have your own problems to deal with. Documented problems. That brings credibility and motive into question. So far that fits the pattern of many of the "accusers".
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anyman, I understand from hints, innuendos, and outright statements from you, Sam and Ian, that you are targeting me.
...I take that as a compliment...it means I must be doing something right.
If getting targeted means you are doing right, then 3ABN must be ready for translation!
I believe anymans point is that you and others have no right to throw stones when you have your own problems to deal with. Documented problems. That brings credibility and motive into question. SO far that fits the pattern of many of the "accusers".
Just so I make sure to understand what you mean.
Are you saying if someone has problems, and I have no idea and it is not my business if Artiste or anyone else has personal problems, financial or spiritual,unless they choose to make it my business,they need to be without concern for anything else??
Back to the "let he who is without sin cast the first stone" Right??
Takes care of a whole host of issues, behaviours,and harm. Pretty well eliminates all of us. Can I assume from the judgements, opinions,chastising of members here, you are the ONE. The one without sin. Must be so as I have seen you throw many.
Must be lonely to be sitting alone, casting stones.
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All of you that think a ruling you have not seen and don't know what transpired clears 3ABN of all wrongdoing, perhaps can now get back to the personal moral character of those that signifies the SDA church to many.
The problem of the Seventh-day Adventist church allowing 3ABN to present itself to the world as a ministry that promotes an SDA message continues.
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anyman, I understand from hints, innuendos, and outright statements from you, Sam and Ian, that you are targeting me.
...I take that as a compliment...it means I must be doing something right.
If getting targeted means you are doing right, then 3ABN must be ready for translation!
I believe anymans point is that you and others have no right to throw stones when you have your own problems to deal with. Documented problems. That brings credibility and motive into question. SO far that fits the pattern of many of the "accusers".
Just so I make sure to understand what you mean.
Are you saying if someone has problems, and I have no idea and it is not my business if Artiste or anyone else has personal problems, financial or spiritual,unless they choose to make it my business,they need to be without concern for anything else??
Back to the "let he who is without sin cast the first stone" Right??
Takes care of a whole host of issues, behaviours,and harm. Pretty well eliminates all of us. Can I assume from the judgements, opinions,chastising of members here, you are the ONE. The one without sin. Must be so as I have seen you throw many.
Must be lonely to be sitting alone, casting stones.
Please address your post to Artiste as she is the one with the premise that if you are targeted you must be doing good things.
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No, I adressed it to the right party as you were explaining a statement for anyman
believe anymans point is that you and others have no right to throw stones when you have your own problems to deal with. Documented problems. That brings credibility and motive into question. SO far that fits the pattern of many of the "accusers".
Have you had any problems in your life?? Have you sinned?
If the answer is yes, lpease tell me how you dare have an opinion or a concern over anything other than your own problems?
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God has certainly not revealed anything to me about 3ABN's status as a paragon of fiscal cleanliness. Opinions expressed by friends of 3ABN on the internet are interesting, and I assume that they bear a certain amount of truth, but they are not divine revelation, in my opinion.
Divine revelations may or may not be received by us personally, but I think it would be a mistake to try to impose these revelations on others as absolute truth.
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I'm personally not buying this "all clear" thing. I have no reason to.
Is it possible this is the IRS version of settling out of court as in lawsuits?? No one has to admit to anything.
Our tax attorney, prior IRS auditor had told us that no one is ever found 100% in a Total Compliance audit or criminal tax investigation. Deals can be struck.
Did you accept that statement from your tax attorney as factual?
If 3ABN is indeed found to be in total compliance, and it's found no deals were struck, would you consider this due to the Lord's leading, and accept it?
Or will you continue to look for excuses or justifications for how 3ABN can still be at fault yet declared exonerated?
Yes, I did as he was a former IRS auditor. But in addition this came from the auditor herself.
And from her, total 100% compliance is virtually impossible from a business or large org. Due to the ambiquous nature of our tax laws and the ability to "correctly" interpret them in more tha one way,ensures that. The main item on the agenda of the IRS is to recoup as much money as possible. A lengthy court battle does not give them that nearly as much as a "amended" return. A settlement is much more preferable.
Will they advertise a case not gone to trial as reaching a settlement?? Doubt it.
Will the fact that DS and 3ABN have not been hauled into court for trial mean "100%" compliance?? IN some ways yes as my records show for the years we were involved in the Total Compliance Audit. They certainly taught me the meaning of the word compliance and that is what my records would show after 18 months of being audited.
I was at fault for not being more diligent before I signed the return and sent it off. Yet, you would have no way of knowing and would either take my word for it or believe I could be lying. There is not even a reference to the lengthy battle or the fact I paid 5,000. in penalty and correct tax. It shows an amended return
If 3ABN is indeed found to be in total compliance, and it's found no deals were struck, would you consider this due to the Lord's leading, and accept it?
I do not necessarily believe that everything that happens is the Lord's leading. If that were the case many wealthy unscrupulous people could claim their monetary good fortune came as a result of the Lord's leading.
Unless the IRS has put something in writing, a legal document,3ABN cannot prove that the claims they are making is accurate or honest, anymore than I can prove the reverse. DS is not a reliable source of information, character reference concerning DS.
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But in addition this came from the auditor herself.
And from her, total 100% compliance is virtually impossible from a business or large org. Due to the ambiquous nature of our tax laws and the ability to "correctly" interpret them in more tha one way,ensures that. The main item on the agenda of the IRS is to recoup as much money as possible. A lengthy court battle does not give them that nearly as much as a "amended" return. A settlement is much more preferable.
Will they advertise a case not gone to trial as reaching a settlement?? Doubt it.
Thanks for this helpful information, Bonnie!
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I have seen people claim information from a "reliable source" and that turns out to be a character reference and shouts of innocence. The reliable source ,the character reference comes from DS about DS. Which is hilarious in it's childish transparency.
What occurred and how, most likely none of us will ever know. One thing I do know is after reading e-mails from DS character witness(himself) to LS concerning the horses I would need a lot more to be totally convinced.
I don't care how you slice and dice that one, I don't care how fast you spin the top, that would be illegal if carried out. The willingness of someone I was involved with trying to get another to be party to that act would cause me to look a whole deeper.
Any that accept the character reference of DS for DS or LS for LS needs to hold on tight to the railing of the turnip truck they are riding.
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I know I am not the only one that received this. It is not a confidential email as far as I can tell. It is one that confirms my ever growing cynical viewpoint in the integrity of those that represent the denomination in some way.
Hi bonnie,
Turns out the Rumourmongers did NOT have it right.
http://adventistforum.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/175187
Well, UNTIL I see a letter from the IRS, stating that 3abn is as clean as a whistle, I'll remain a 'doubting Thomas'.
I noticed Stan patting himself on the back, praising himself that he hadn't engaged in any rumormongering! Such self Adulation doesn't really impress me.
I'm still waiting to see THE letter of exoneration.
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Well, UNTIL I see a letter from the IRS, stating that 3abn is as clean as a whistle, I'll remain a 'doubting Thomas'.
I noticed Stan patting himself on the back, praising himself that he hadn't engaged in any rumormongering! Such self Adulation doesn't really impress me.
I'm still waiting to see THE letter of exoneration.[/b]
Many seem to take the "high road". Gossip and rumourmongering shall not pass these lips, but excuse me while I keep abreast of all the rumourmongering. That is just so I can educate myself to the sins of "those others".
Thank you God I am not like those others. When I blame and name names without facts, except for verification by my reliable source,mine is righteous anger at those that gossip without the facts I possess.
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Well, UNTIL I see a letter from the IRS, stating that 3abn is as clean as a whistle, I'll remain a 'doubting Thomas'.
I noticed Stan patting himself on the back, praising himself that he hadn't engaged in any rumormongering! Such self Adulation doesn't really impress me.
I'm still waiting to see THE letter of exoneration.[/b]
Many seem to take the "high road". Gossip and rumourmongering shall not pass these lips, but excuse me while I keep abreast of all the rumourmongering. That is just so I can educate myself to the sins of "those others".
Thank you God I am not like those others. When I blame and name names without facts, except for verification by my reliable source,mine is righteous anger at those that gossip without the facts I possess.
That summary is EXACTLY as I would have described it Bonnie, had I had the words to express myself. I wonder where the whips are for the flagellation?
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For someone who claims to have such a grasp on the law and insight into how governmental agencies operate it is strange that you just can't grasp (or maybe you just like the bliss of ignoring it) the idea that the IRS found nothing wrong with the financial dealings and supporting documents they obtained from 3ABN and Danny Shelton.
Now, you can continue to hide behind the thin veil of "knowing it all" but it is growing more thread bare as the days pass . . . wonder how you will respond when the other shoe drops and you are left with nothing to support you and the people you have used to get to this point no longer stand at your side . . .
So, when are you reposting your revised 990's to bring them into compliance??? And you are telling me the feds are telling the State they were all wet?
SAM, go back and check those sources!!! Need Carol Maces' number? Probably better luck getting a response from the US Attorney and can't wait to see those letters!!!
If I need to go and Kiss the popes ring and pay pennance on the stairs I need to know as soon as possible. I'll even let you take pictures!!!
Gailon Arthur Joy
Anyman, I can read and have enough accounting experience to know that there is a failure to properly disclose, there are clearly issues relating to the real property transactions, there are clearly issues relating to the relationship between 3ABN, DLS, PPA and Remnant publications.
Now the blood soaked and shrunken glove may not fit, but I also know that Simpson was guilty of murder. It took a civil trial to prove it.
SO stay tuned and produce a copy of this "exoneration" letter for us all to see!!!
I fear it is as elusive as the evidence against Linda. Maybe it will just get "lost"!!!
SO, ANYMAN, produce the "exoneration" letter. Simple thing to do if it exists!!!
Gailon Arthur Joy
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A word on the self-appointed exonerator known as STAN JENSON: The only reliable information he has given the world is that his source is reliable, that he has finally come out of the closet as a true blue DANNYITE, a specific prejudice I have accused him of in the past, and has joined his Fish in the fishbowl....turn the spotlight on the fishbowl and you will understand the level of Stan's OPINION!!!
Stan is like many adventist administrators, he is looking and searching diligently for more butter for his bread, but can't find the butter when it is right under his nose. The obvious is just too obvious for Stan. Besides, ignorance is Bliss!!!
But, STAN, still waiting for the evidence that gave a basis for the divorce...and it is still missing...
Now we wait patiently for the IRS EXONERATION letter. Dare I say it???Here we go again???
Oh, that's right, ANYMAN has made it clear that in their arrogance they WILL TRY to introduce the evidence when it suits them. Well, your suit time is running out, Stan and ANYMAN. After that. Linda is exonerated and Brenda will find herself walking a short plank with an evolving story that is, shall we say,
factually challenged. When one tells a story, one should tell the same story twice!!!
But watch out, there is another shoe coming down any minute. Wonder if it has as many holes in it as the first one had???
Gailon Arthur Joy
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Stan Jensen has raised an interesting point over on the Yahoo thing.
"One has to wonder why 'they' are always attacking the accounting staff at 3ABN.
Do they think Danny does all of the entries? That the 3ABN external auditor is
not competent?
It would appear that some of the major complainers have never run a business,
successful or
not, yet they seem to be al knowing on running an international multimillion
dollar organization.
Am I missing something? Does Danny do all the accounting etc?"
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I wonder if Jeff Skilling and Ken Lay did all the accounting entries for ENRON. Or John Rigas at Adelphia. I understand that Arthur Anderson was one of the most credible and prominent accounting/auditing firms in the US.
(Oops, big spelling error.)
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I wonder if Jeff Skilling and Ken Lay did all the accounting entries for ENRON. Or John Rigas at Adelphia. I understand that Arthur Anderson was one of the most credible and prominent accounting/auding firms in the US.
EMPHASIS ON THE "WAS"!!! And where can you find them all today???
Gailon Arthur Joy
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For someone who claims to have such a grasp on the law and insight into how governmental agencies operate it is strange that you just can\'t grasp (or maybe you just like the bliss of ignoring it) the idea that the IRS found nothing wrong with the financial dealings and supporting documents they obtained from 3ABN and Danny Shelton.
Now, you can continue to hide behind the thin veil of \"knowing it all\" but it is growing more thread bare as the days pass . . . wonder how you will respond when the other shoe drops and you are left with nothing to support you and the people you have used to get to this point no longer stand at your side . . .
So, when are you reposting your revised 990\'s to bring them into compliance??? And you are telling me the feds are telling the State they were all wet?
SAM, go back and check those sources!!! Need Carol Maces\' number? Probably better luck getting a response from the US Attorney and can\'t wait to see those letters!!!
If I need to go and Kiss the popes ring and pay pennance on the stairs I need to know as soon as possible. I\'ll even let you take pictures!!!
Gailon Arthur Joy
Anyman, I can read and have enough accounting experience to know that there is a failure to properly disclose, there are clearly issues relating to the real property transactions, there are clearly issues relating to the relationship between 3ABN, DLS, PPA and Remnant publications.
Now the blood soaked and shrunken glove may not fit, but I also know that Simpson was guilty of murder. It took a civil trial to prove it.
SO stay tuned and produce a copy of this \"exoneration\" letter for us all to see!!!
I fear it is as elusive as the evidence against Linda. Maybe it will just get \"lost\"!!!
SO, ANYMAN, produce the \"exoneration\" letter. Simple thing to do if it exists!!!
Gailon Arthur Joy
Hey Gailon,
How sure are you?
What do you think the chances are that 3ABN will produce the Exoneration letter from the IRS?
50/50? 20/80 ?
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Hey Gailon,
How sure are you?
What do you think the chances are that 3ABN will produce the Exoneration letter from the IRS?
50/50? 20/80 ?
I could be wrong on this, but didn't Danny say that there was no IRS investigation happening? I know his lawyer did in court just a few months ago. Wouldn't a statement that the investigation cleared him imply that there had been an investigation that he knew about?
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A word on the self-appointed exonerator known as STAN JENSON: The only reliable information he has given the world is that his source is reliable, that he has finally come out of the closet as a true blue DANNYITE, a specific prejudice I have accused him of in the past, and has joined his Fish in the fishbowl....turn the spotlight on the fishbowl and you will understand the level of Stan's OPINION!!!
Stan is like many adventist administrators, he is looking and searching diligently for more butter for his bread, but can't find the butter when it is right under his nose. The obvious is just too obvious for Stan. Besides, ignorance is Bliss!!!
But, STAN, still waiting for the evidence that gave a basis for the divorce...and it is still missing...
Now we wait patiently for the IRS EXONERATION letter. Dare I say it???Here we go again???
Oh, that's right, ANYMAN has made it clear that in their arrogance they WILL TRY to introduce the evidence when it suits them. Well, your suit time is running out, Stan and ANYMAN. After that. Linda is exonerated and Brenda will find herself walking a short plank with an evolving story that is, shall we say,
factually challenged. When one tells a story, one should tell the same story twice!!!
But watch out, there is another shoe coming down any minute. Wonder if it has as many holes in it as the first one had???
Gailon Arthur Joy
Gailon,
As one who has known Stan Jensen for many years, I believe that his only "expertise" is in FAST FOOD.
Eduard
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Gailon,
As one who has known Stan Jensen for many years, I believe that his only "expertise" is in FAST FOOD.
Eduard
I think it obvious I am not a friend or fan of Stan Jensen,but some of the comments are way over the top, concerning both he and Gregory Matthews, who I do consider a TRUSTED friend.
They are not necessary/cute .The "expertise in fast food" reflects more on the poster than anyone else.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion, even in this mess. Stan has made it clear that he would not allow "anyone" to engage in speculation or negative comments concerning DS and 3ABN, while at the same time making it clear that his own personal speculation and negative comments about others was not only proper but funny to boot. On several occasions he has deliberately brought into a discussion "those others" that engage in speculation and rumormongering. Pretending humor several attempts were made to bring in gossip, with his approval, as long as it was concerning the "others".
He made a very definitive comment concerning his part in destroying LS chance of a ministry. For this reliable ,factual information he seems to rely on DS. As well as "he hears" LS feels the same. Lacking the maturity to either stand by his unnecessary public statements, he waltzes the mulberry bush. Perhaps he overstated a bit.
Did Gregory do as charged or did he not? A Christian that professes so much deliberately made an ambiguous statement so that he neither had to retract or apologize. Fueling the very gossip he pretends to abhore. Maybe LS should get a grip and follow where everyone claims to know God is leading ,as in another ministry. I have often wondered if God is amused or dumbfounded by all the people that "KNOW" his will for another.
If God is leading, I for one believe LS better be willing to follow. Not tell God where she wants him to take her.
However that has nothing to do with the malicious cracks being made. Nothing to do with accusations that you cannot back up and are pulling out of the air for the entertainment of those that you feel support you. Again, that seems to be a part of the script for both sides in this whole sorry mess
The two sides seem to be getting so close together in conduct that they are blurring into one.
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Gailon,
As one who has known Stan Jensen for many years, I believe that his only "expertise" is in FAST FOOD.
Eduard
I think it obvious I am not a friend or fan of Stan Jensen,but some of the comments are way over the top, concerning both he and Gregory Matthews, who I do consider a TRUSTED friend.
They are not necessary/cute .The "expertise in fast food" reflects more on the poster than anyone else.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion, even in this mess. Stan has made it clear that he would not allow "anyone" to engage in speculation or negative comments concerning DS and 3ABN, while at the same time making it clear that his own personal speculation and negative comments about others was not only proper but funny to boot. On several occasions he has deliberately brought into a discussion "those others" that engage in speculation and rumormongering. Pretending humor several attempts were made to bring in gossip, with his approval, as long as it was concerning the "others".
He made a very definitive comment concerning his part in destroying LS chance of a ministry. For this reliable ,factual information he seems to rely on DS. As well as "he hears" LS feels the same. Lacking the maturity to either stand by his unnecessary public statements, he waltzes the mulberry bush. Perhaps he overstated a bit.
Did Gregory do as charged or did he not? A Christian that professes so much deliberately made an ambiguous statement so that he neither had to retract or apologize. Fueling the very gossip he pretends to abhore. Maybe LS should get a grip and follow where everyone claims to know God is leading ,as in another ministry. I have often wondered if God is amused or dumbfounded by all the people that "KNOW" his will for another.
If God is leading, I for one believe LS better be willing to follow. Not tell God where she wants him to take her.
However that has nothing to do with the malicious cracks being made. Nothing to do with accusations that you cannot back up and are pulling out of the air for the entertainment of those that you feel support you. Again, that seems to be a part of the script for both sides in this whole sorry mess
The two sides seem to be getting so close together in conduct that they are blurring into one.
“bonnie,”
I don’t want to be offensive (although you probably know that I can), but it seems to me that you have adopted a PATRONIZING attitude towards me. I want to assure you that you have no special authority to produce statements such as the ones above. You are entitled ONLY to a MERE OPINION or INTERPRETATION in matters such as the ones we are discussing now.
I don’t know how many messages you have exchanged with Stan Jensen, but I have exchanged quite a lot of them with him. I will stop here with my comments on Stan Jensen because I don’t want to get into conflict with the administration of the forum. Please, do not interpret my comments on Stan as malicious, but as true statements about his value as a man and as an SDA.
As for Gregory, he may be your “TRUSTED friend,” but he is not MY TRUSTED FRIEND. Because I don’t know him personally, I base my judgments (And I am entitled to such judgments!) on his messages. His messages are DOUBLE TALK, and many others in the forum have doubts about where he stands on the issues related to Danny Shelton.
Your impression that I have tried to be “cute,” when I wrote the note about Stan amuses me. If you knew me you would know that I never try to be “cute,” and neither do I try to make comments “for the entertainment of those that you feel support me.” Again, you are assuming too much. I don’t need anyone’s approval for my opinions and perspectives. I have learned to stand on my own.
You seem to be venturing into unknown territory. That is, for some reason you appear to think that you can read minds. You cannot. Keep that in mind when you write messages like the one I am responding to.
Eduard
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Gailon,
As one who has known Stan Jensen for many years, I believe that his only "expertise" is in FAST FOOD.
Eduard
I think it obvious I am not a friend or fan of Stan Jensen,but some of the comments are way over the top, concerning both he and Gregory Matthews, who I do consider a TRUSTED friend.
They are not necessary/cute .The "expertise in fast food" reflects more on the poster than anyone else.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion, even in this mess. Stan has made it clear that he would not allow "anyone" to engage in speculation or negative comments concerning DS and 3ABN, while at the same time making it clear that his own personal speculation and negative comments about others was not only proper but funny to boot. On several occasions he has deliberately brought into a discussion "those others" that engage in speculation and rumormongering. Pretending humor several attempts were made to bring in gossip, with his approval, as long as it was concerning the "others".
He made a very definitive comment concerning his part in destroying LS chance of a ministry. For this reliable ,factual information he seems to rely on DS. As well as "he hears" LS feels the same. Lacking the maturity to either stand by his unnecessary public statements, he waltzes the mulberry bush. Perhaps he overstated a bit.
Did Gregory do as charged or did he not? A Christian that professes so much deliberately made an ambiguous statement so that he neither had to retract or apologize. Fueling the very gossip he pretends to abhore. Maybe LS should get a grip and follow where everyone claims to know God is leading ,as in another ministry. I have often wondered if God is amused or dumbfounded by all the people that "KNOW" his will for another.
If God is leading, I for one believe LS better be willing to follow. Not tell God where she wants him to take her.
However that has nothing to do with the malicious cracks being made. Nothing to do with accusations that you cannot back up and are pulling out of the air for the entertainment of those that you feel support you. Again, that seems to be a part of the script for both sides in this whole sorry mess
The two sides seem to be getting so close together in conduct that they are blurring into one.
Did you forget what you wanted to say or did you just think it should be posted twice. This time in the blue
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Anyman, I can read and have enough accounting experience to know that there is a failure to properly disclose, there are clearly issues relating to the real property transactions, there are clearly issues relating to the relationship between 3ABN, DLS, PPA and Remnant publications.
Now the blood soaked and shrunken glove may not fit, but I also know that Simpson was guilty of murder. It took a civil trial to prove it.
SO stay tuned and produce a copy of this \"exoneration\" letter for us all to see!!!
I fear it is as elusive as the evidence against Linda. Maybe it will just get \"lost\"!!!
SO, ANYMAN, produce the \"exoneration\" letter. Simple thing to do if it exists!!!
Gailon Arthur Joy
Hey Gailon,
How sure are you?
What do you think the chances are that 3ABN will produce the Exoneration letter from the IRS?
50/50? 20/80 ?
Jack in the box
DIdn't I already answer that above? What are the chances they will produce any evidence against Linda after four years?
But, the more imortant issue is, as I stated many times in the past, the hurdle for a criminal charge is very high, whereas the bar for civil action is so much lower.
The problem is, I cannot ignore the clear communications within the horse deal, or the process used in the property deals, nor can I ignore the statements given from
staff regarding the money earned on the Ten Commandments Twice Removed book and other book transactions that simply are not disclosed on the 3ABN 990.
So, I believe there is a great deal of difference between a premise that the Governments have elected not to bring criminal charges and "exoneration".
The good news is that 3ABN today is substantially different from the 3ABN pre- October of 2007. They have a former NAD President as President of 3ABN and a former conference Treasurer that is the 3ABN Treasurer and the composition of the board is substantially different. In time the day to day management, including programming, will change as well.
Have we had an impact on those clear changes? I doubt that 3ABN would be inclined to admit we have. And it is unfortunate that we had to come this far to see these changes. The record clearly demonstrated there was a need for change and I believe we at least accurately demonstrated that record. It is unfortunate the prior Board ignored the opportunity to bring the reforms needed.
But, as a final word, if they were to post any letter at all, it would be a great step in the right direction. Certainly would clarify, I Hope, the brother's assertions.
Gailon Arthur Joy
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Edited to separate original post from quoted posts.
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“bonnie,”
I don’t want to be offensive (although you probably know that I can), but it seems to me that you have adopted a PATRONIZING attitude towards me.
Patronizing, Not in the least. Perhaps this would be the time for you to look up the big words you are using.
I believe you do want to be offensive and were
I want to assure you that you have no special authority to produce statements such as the ones above. You are entitled ONLY to a MERE OPINION or INTERPRETATION in matters such as the ones we are discussing now.
Sorry, you lack the ability or authority to "grant entitlement " to me for anything.
I don’t know how many messages you have exchanged with Stan Jensen, but I have exchanged quite a lot of them with him.
Probably more tha you would believe.
I will stop here with my comments on Stan Jensen because I don’t want to get into conflict with the administration of the forum. Please, do not interpret my comments on Stan as malicious, but as true statements about his value as a man and as an SDA.
I don't need the patronizing comments. Surprise, I know many big words and what they mean. Stan and I are not friends,however for the the comment as far as his expertise or now as to the value as a man, you are just plain flat out, way out of liine. As much as I disagree and have taken issue with many things Stan has said and done,God so far has not notified me of the right to judge his value as a human being.
As for Gregory, he may be your “TRUSTED friend,” but he is not MY TRUSTED FRIEND. Because I don’t know him personally, I base my judgments (And I am entitled to such judgments!) on his messages. His messages are DOUBLE TALK, and many others in the forum have doubts about where he stands on the issues related to Danny Shelton.
For those that have doubts where Gregory stands and has always stood, I have a novel idea . Those of you that condemn him publically, call him a liar,double talking,kissing someone's ring, and I believe there was something about a worm,for those like Stan that believe the reliable source DS, and quote him as some sort of gospel, took it upon himself to blame him for LS and a failed new ministry . ASK HIM, and then compare the current answers with the previous statements as to what he was about and his interest.
If as you say, you don't know him personally,then before your scathing, insulting description of a man you say you don't know, maybe you should follow christian principal and not condemn without facts.
Your impression that I have tried to be “cute,” when I wrote the note about Stan amuses me. If you knew me you would know that I never try to be “cute,” and neither do I try to make comments “for the entertainment of those that you feel support me.” Again, you are assuming too much. I don’t need anyone’s approval for my opinions and perspectives. I have learned to stand on my own.
Doesn't take much to amuse some people. But I do think you make comments for entertainment value. Not as in wholesome entertainment, but to wow and impress .
You seem to be under the impression that I was either asking your approval to comment or now somehow you needed someone's approval to comment. Neither scenerio is accurate.
i
You seem to be venturing into unknown territory. That is, for some reason you appear to think that you can read minds. You cannot. Keep that in mind when you write messages like the one I am responding to.
Some minds are incredibly easy to read. Keep in mind when you are responding that not everyone hides in the corner when others began to huff and puff like the big bad wolf.
And not everyone Goes WOW, can't he be offensive tho
Your uncalled for statements are completely transparent and ,you are the most reliable source to look at to determine your value as a man.
[/quote]
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don’t know how many messages you have exchanged with Stan Jensen, but I have exchanged quite a lot of them with him.
So, Eduard tells us that Stan's EMPLOYMENT is a sinecure. I wonder if Edard could tell us who recieves the benefice of Stan's employment.
As to saying that Stan is "no good," That is an inappropriate comment to be allowed to be made on this forum. I have my differences with people here and they with me. But, we have a obligation to treat each other with respect regardless of our differences.
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Edited to fix quoting format error.
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That is an inappropriate comment to be allowed to be made on this forum. I have my differences with people here and they with me. But, we have a obligation to treat each other with respect regardless of our differences.
Agreed, Gregory, that treating each other with respect should be a hallmark of this forum - whether the differences are in education, in opportunity, in origin .....or whatever.
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don’t know how many messages you have exchanged with Stan Jensen, but I have exchanged quite a lot of them with him.
So, Eduard tells us that Stan's EMPLOYMENT is a sinecure. I wonder if Edard could tell us who recieves the benefice of Stan's employment.
As to saying that Stan is "no good," That is an inappropriate comment to be allowed to be made on this forum. I have my differences with people here and they with me. But, we have a obligation to treat each other with respect regardless of our differences.
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Edited to fix quoting format error.
Gregory, you had your opportunity to serve as a moderator and passed it by. Maybe you should re-consider?
Gailon Arthur Joy
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Gailon, as you, myself, Eduard, Dr. Walter Thompson, Danny Shelton, Linda Shelton, Bob Pickle stand before God we all stand on the same level--people of worth. We may disagree on issues. But, in the eyes of God we are all of equal value. The personalizations that some (on both sides) have engaged in reflect a very poor view of a central teaching of Christianity that people have value and Christ values all people equally. I do not feel it necessary to be a Moderator (Thank you for your affirmation on this.) to point out the wrong that was done.
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As you can see for yourself, Eduard's post about Stan has been edited.
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Gailon, as you, myself, Eduard, Dr. Walter Thompson, Danny Shelton, Linda Shelton, Bob Pickle stand before God we all stand on the same level--people of worth. We may disagree on issues. But, in the eyes of God we are all of equal value. The personalizations that some (on both sides) have engaged in reflect a very poor view of a central teaching of Christianity that people have value and Christ values all people equally. I do not feel it necessary to be a Moderator (Thank you for your affirmation on this.) to point out the wrong that was done.
I repeat my prior proposal. It fits you perfectly. I am not being a wiseguy, but rather making a straight-forward assessment. Please reconsider?
It is true that we do not see many issues the same way, but you are far more neutral and balanced than many and moderating fits you.
Gailon Arthur Joy
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Ok, did Danny say on the air that there was no IRS investigation? Did he? If he did then someone is telling a big one. Him or Ronnie, one or the other. There don't seem to be any other alternatives, do there? If there was no investigation then there could be no exoneration by way of the means that are being touted. If there was no investigation then how did the IRS end up with over 100,000 documents from 3ABN? How about the interviews? What does this say to the 3ABN lawyer who emphatically stated IN COURT that ther was no IRS investigation? Did someone fib to her, or did she flat out lie to the court?
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Danny said that it didn't matter if someone was a Christian, if they were saying that the IRS was investigating him behind the scenes, they were an enemy of the gospel.
Am I remembering that correctly?
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Danny said that it didn't matter if someone was a Christian, if they were saying that the IRS was investigating him behind the scenes, they were an enemy of the gospel.
Am I remembering that correctly?
The question remains: Is 3ABN cleared of all wrongdoing if they are cleared by the IRS?
Will the gospel according to 3ABN continue on unimpeded?
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They have not been cleared by ME yet, and that is unanimous!!!
Gailon Arthur Joy
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They have not been cleared by ME yet, and that is unanimous!!!
Gailon Arthur Joy
I believe it's the other way around. You haven't been cleared by them yet!
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They have not been cleared by ME yet, and that is unanimous!!!
Gailon Arthur Joy
I believe it's the other way around. You haven't been cleared by them yet!
What a laugh!!! Did you mean cleared or cleaned?
SAM, get back to dealing with miscreant pastors and start right there at 3ABN. Try cleaning things up, starting with Tommy Ray Shelton, and we will finally be impressed.
Gailon Arthur Joy
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They have not been cleared by ME yet, and that is unanimous!!!
Gailon Arthur Joy
I believe it's the other way around. You haven't been cleared by them yet!
What a laugh!!! Did you mean cleared or cleaned?
SAM, get back to dealing with miscreant pastors and start right there at 3ABN. Try cleaning things up, starting with Tommy Ray Shelton, and we will finally be impressed.
Gailon Arthur Joy
I don't know if you are just fishing or if you are just that uninformed and I don't really care. So, I will be glad to tell you that I am not a part of the couple that are aiming your smart remarks at. As usual, you have brought them in tried to slam them for no apparent reason. I do not know them personally and you don't either, so why continue to make remarks like you do?
The joke of this whole thing is that personally don't know most of the people you try to ruin. If you ever got to know some of them you may find out that they are nothing like you thought....you might even like some of them. IMO those feelings wouldn't be returned as you make it impossible for anyone to like or trust you.
You are misleading your followers about the IRS investigation. You know it, and God knows it. They will find out sooner or later.
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No, he doesn't know he's misleading anyone about the IRS investigation. Facts are facts. According to Duffy's letter, the IRS has not issued any pronouncement declaring that Danny and 3ABN are squeeky clean.
Now if you have any evidence to the contrary, I'm all ears.
But notice that even if these claims were true, it wouldn't mean that Danny was correct after all when he claimed to have proof that Linda's car was titled in his name. It wouldn't clear him of Alyssa Moore's allegations of sexual assault. It wouldn't mean that he was correct when he said that Christians who say the IRS is investigating him are enemies of the gospel. It wouldn't mean that he disclosed DLS Publishing and his royalties on his financial affidavit. It wouldn't mean he had biblical grounds for divorce when he didn't know whether Linda had committed fornication almost a month after their divorce.
Regarding some points, it's a no win situation. Like his claims to be able to monitor every call out and in to Arild Abrahamsen's telephone. Even if the IRS exoneration story were true, how would that affect Danny's claim? Would it mean that he had somehow bugged the doctor's phone? Or would it mean he was just out and out lying? Either way, he isn't exonerated.
This thread is entitled, Has 3ABN been cleared of all wrongdoing, so we could confine our comments to 3ABN. If the IRS exoneration story were true, would that mean that the 3ABN Board did adequately investigate the Tommy Shelton child molestation allegations, including speaking with his alleged victims? Would it mean that Hal Steenson really did give $100,000 worth of video equipment, and that Kay Kuzma's book is incorrect on that point? Would it mean that John Lomacang never likened Danny to Moses and never said he couldn't be corrected by people? Would it mean that Shelley Quinn never insinuated that Alyssa Moore was a liar? Would it mean that 3ABN never hosted a tribute to an alleged pedophile just weeks after new allegations were announced? Would it mean that Tommy never said that if it weren't for the ferry he could cope?
So even if the story were true, if it could be confirmed somehow and wasn't based on someone's interpretation of a phone call, what does it really mean?
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You are misleading your followers about the IRS investigation. You know it, and God knows it. They will find out sooner or later.
And YOU are misleading others about my age at the time I was abused. You know it, and God knows it. They will find out sooner or later.
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now im confused after reading gramanetties post in the other thread
gramanettie holers at gailon for his venomous jab at a couple in ministry to help abuse victims and then sam comes along and says he isnt a part of that couple
so which is it?
who is wrong gramanettie or sam?
You know, I was just thinking of the term "condescending" in relation to Sam and the way he talks to Bob.
Don't be so sure it is "he"...what if it is the miscreant pastor hunter herself? And her rather savvy webmaster? Would you know which which is which at which time?
ANd wonder if those miscreant pastors investigated ever included Pastor Tommy Ray Shelton?
Perhaps we should have some "victims" file complaints and see how they handle them? What say yee???
Gailon Arthur Joy
What purpose does it serve to lay out such a venomous jab in what appears to be an attempt to discredit a couple who are in ministry to help victims of abuse? Do you have evidence that they are doing something wrong? Or is it somehow implied that they are complicit to all you perceive wrong at 3abn since they are, to a degree, associated with 3abn?
And why have you waited for nearly two years before wondering if you should "have some victims" file complaints. If you have that kind of pull with alleged victims, why, in heaven's name, have you waited for nearly two years to have them take action? Or is it your purpose to attempt to lay a clever trap for the "miscreant pastor hunter" and the "webmaster" to get some "Aha! See?" evidence that they are helping in the cover up that has nothing to do with attempting to help those who have alleged pastoral abuse? That is exploiting those alleged victims; further abusing them, IMO
Just shaking my head at the spirit permeating your post, Gailon.
Who will be the next person or persons you level the crosshairs on? I suppose the greater question is "Why"?
I don't know if you are just fishing or if you are just that uninformed and I don't really care. So, I will be glad to tell you that I am not a part of the couple that are aiming your smart remarks at. As usual, you have brought them in tried to slam them for no apparent reason. I do not know them personally and you don't either, so why continue to make remarks like you do?
The joke of this whole thing is that personally don't know most of the people you try to ruin. If you ever got to know some of them you may find out that they are nothing like you thought....you might even like some of them. IMO those feelings wouldn't be returned as you make it impossible for anyone to like or trust you.
You are misleading your followers about the IRS investigation. You know it, and God knows it. They will find out sooner or later.
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now im confused after reading gramanetties post in the other thread
gramanettie holers at gailon for his venomous jab at a couple in ministry to help abuse victims and then sam comes along and says he isnt a part of that couple
so which is it?
who is wrong gramanettie or sam?
Neither were wrong, nor contradictory.
Gailon was the one who was wrong....
You know, I was just thinking of the term "condescending" in relation to Sam and the way he talks to Bob.
Don't be so sure it is "he"...what if it is the miscreant pastor hunter herself? And her rather savvy webmaster? Would you know which which is which at which time?
ANd wonder if those miscreant pastors investigated ever included Pastor Tommy Ray Shelton?
Perhaps we should have some "victims" file complaints and see how they handle them? What say yee???
Gailon Arthur Joy
What purpose does it serve to lay out such a venomous jab in what appears to be an attempt to discredit a couple who are in ministry to help victims of abuse? Do you have evidence that they are doing something wrong? Or is it somehow implied that they are complicit to all you perceive wrong at 3abn since they are, to a degree, associated with 3abn?
And why have you waited for nearly two years before wondering if you should "have some victims" file complaints. If you have that kind of pull with alleged victims, why, in heaven's name, have you waited for nearly two years to have them take action? Or is it your purpose to attempt to lay a clever trap for the "miscreant pastor hunter" and the "webmaster" to get some "Aha! See?" evidence that they are helping in the cover up that has nothing to do with attempting to help those who have alleged pastoral abuse? That is exploiting those alleged victims; further abusing them, IMO
Just shaking my head at the spirit permeating your post, Gailon.
Who will be the next person or persons you level the crosshairs on? I suppose the greater question is "Why"?
I don't know if you are just fishing or if you are just that uninformed and I don't really care. So, I will be glad to tell you that I am not a part of the couple that are aiming your smart remarks at. As usual, you have brought them in tried to slam them for no apparent reason. I do not know them personally and you don't either, so why continue to make remarks like you do?
The joke of this whole thing is that personally don't know most of the people you try to ruin. If you ever got to know some of them you may find out that they are nothing like you thought....you might even like some of them. IMO those feelings wouldn't be returned as you make it impossible for anyone to like or trust you.
You are misleading your followers about the IRS investigation. You know it, and God knows it. They will find out sooner or later.
[/quote]
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Now im confused after reading gramanetties post in the other thread.
Gramanettie holers at Gailon for his venomous jab at a couple in ministry to help abuse victims, and then sam comes along and says he isnt a part of that couple.
So which is it?
Who is wrong, Gramanettie or Sam?
Neither were wrong, nor contradictory.
Gailon was the one who was wrong....
And, 2+2=18.
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Now im confused after reading gramanetties post in the other thread.
Gramanettie holers at Gailon for his venomous jab at a couple in ministry to help abuse victims, and then sam comes along and says he isnt a part of that couple.
So which is it?
Who is wrong, Gramanettie or Sam?
Neither were wrong, nor contradictory.
Gailon was the one who was wrong....
And, 2+2=18.
You done got some goofy math lady :)
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Me have whompum BIG sheep skin in wolfed frame. me canum gvb54r count, right?
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Me have whompum BIG sheep skin in wolfed frame. me canum gvb54r count, right?
I understood the first part, but boy did you lose me in that last part.....me canum gvb54r count, right?
Sheep skin in wolf frame I understand :thumbsup:
.
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Ian is 100% correct. Gailon is wrong.
Michael Kopper, no need to be confused... it just takes careful reading and you will see why Ian is right.
Gailon recently made quite a number of venomous posts about the leaders of the ministry Petunia referred to just before he started in on the attack. His explanation for why he was casting aspersions on them, inferring awful things about this couple, was that the "miscreant pastor hunter" has stepped onto his battlefield and is fair game for his crosshairs. I'm of a mind that neither of the young couple are even aware that he thinks they have stepped onto his battlefield. When they do become aware he just might be looking at a brand new law suit if he doesn't reign in his tongue.
Gailon has concluded that Sam is one or the other, or both. Sam is neither the "miscreant pastor hunter" nor the "webmaster" as Gailon claims. Sam stated this in a post. Will Gailon accept this? Who knows. Once either Bob or Gailon has reached a conclusion, accurate or not, it seems to be rare that they are willing to accept that they are wrong.
1+1 = 18 Fran? Only for those who follow the sometimes convoluted logic of Bob and Gailon. Just brush the cobwebs from your eyes and check out the facts.
Also, as a Christian who believes that Earthlings are of only One Race, and, as the grandmother of a partly-Pomo Native American child, and as the friend of others with Native American blood coursing through their veins, I find the "Tonto"-type references a bit on the offensive side.
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GrandmaNettie, I agree that some might take offense. I have some native american blood coursing through my veins but I will not take offense because I also realize that some people get their tongues running before putting their brain in gear. :-)
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I have 6, honest to God, Native American children! Get a grip! They didn't get offended.
I just be stupeedo. :thumbsup: :ROFL: :hamster: Wher am me tail? :purr: Gulp! :dunno:
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Your children are to be commended. What I said is that some might take offense.
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I have 6, honest to God, Native American children! Get a grip! They didn't get offended.
I just be stupeedo. :thumbsup: :ROFL: :hamster: Wher am me tail? :purr: Gulp! :dunno:
Just a little fun here. We had Native American boys/brothers as foster children. They were some much fun with them. They used to play cowboys and indians with my four. Wesley the youngest came in crying a couple of times.
He was upset with my four and the neighbor boys because he had to always be the "indian"
It was so hard not to laugh when he would tell me why he was crying.
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I don't know if you are just fishing or if you are just that uninformed and I don't really care. So, I will be glad to tell you that I am not a part of the couple that are aiming your smart remarks at. As usual, you have brought them in tried to slam them for no apparent reason. I do not know them personally and you don't either, so why continue to make remarks like you do?
The joke of this whole thing is that personally don't know most of the people you try to ruin. If you ever got to know some of them you may find out that they are nothing like you thought....you might even like some of them. IMO those feelings wouldn't be returned as you make it impossible for anyone to like or trust you.
You are misleading your followers about the IRS investigation. You know it, and God knows it. They will find out sooner or later.
What remarks concern you? I have not impuned character or reputation, yet.
But, you are obviously factually challenged here...you referenced a couple? What couple? And if they work at 3ABN and you are close enough to know all the players, then you KNOW THE COUPLE!!!
I stand by my remarks and suggest you start with cleaning up your own camp and Lord knows just how much cleaning there is need of. If you would like me to REALLY start itemizing the sins in the sand, right here on Advent Talk, I should be quite happy to. I doubt you or the 3ABN family wants that much exposure and it is not our purpose to do so. We simply want the mess cleaned up and assurances it will not recur.
As to the IRS Investigation, apparently I know as much as you do. It is clear that all the stuff printed and televised is conjecture purportedly based upon a document disposal request for 13,000 documents. Beyond what your factually challenged camp has printed, I know nothing other than that my poll of those that I know contributed documents, NONE...NADYA....ZIP...ZILCH have been sent documents of been questioned regarding destruction. Perhaps you should list those that have and I shall be happy to question them for clarification, but
DO NOT ASK ME TO BELIEVE ANYTHING YOU OR ANYONE ELSE SAYS AT 3ABN as I have WAY TOO MUCH EVIDENCE THAT THE PLACE IS FULL OF FACTUALLY CHALLENGED COMMENTATORS!!! THAT IS EVIDENCES BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT.
Say hello to your couple and get them to investigate the allegations against Tommy and stop playing the farsical role...ignorance does not become you!!!
Gailon Arthur Joy
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Ian is 100% correct. Gailon is wrong.
Michael Kopper, no need to be confused... it just takes careful reading and you will see why Ian is right.
Gailon recently made quite a number of venomous posts about the leaders of the ministry Petunia referred to just before he started in on the attack. His explanation for why he was casting aspersions on them, inferring awful things about this couple, was that the "miscreant pastor hunter" has stepped onto his battlefield and is fair game for his crosshairs. I'm of a mind that neither of the young couple are even aware that he thinks they have stepped onto his battlefield. When they do become aware he just might be looking at a brand new law suit if he doesn't reign in his tongue.
Gailon has concluded that Sam is one or the other, or both. Sam is neither the "miscreant pastor hunter" nor the "webmaster" as Gailon claims. Sam stated this in a post. Will Gailon accept this? Who knows. Once either Bob or Gailon has reached a conclusion, accurate or not, it seems to be rare that they are willing to accept that they are wrong.
1+1 = 18 Fran? Only for those who follow the sometimes convoluted logic of Bob and Gailon. Just brush the cobwebs from your eyes and check out the facts.
Also, as a Christian who believes that Earthlings are of only One Race, and, as the grandmother of a partly-Pomo Native American child, and as the friend of others with Native American blood coursing through their veins, I find the "Tonto"-type references a bit on the offensive side.
Grandma,
I find you offensive, but I doubt that surprises you.
I suspect you also know by now that I DO NOT FEAR ANY THREAT OR ATTEMPT AT LITIGATION, particularly from a pastor hunter or the couple. My conclusion was based on good intelligence. I trust yours is based upon actually speaking to the couple, right?
And you have still not explained the most obvious of questions, since you are so "in the know" and the couple originate from your coast...why did YOU not ask them to investigate the allegations against Tommy, IF YOU REALLY WERE CONCERNED ABOUT THE ISSUE? You proclaim you are looking for the TRUTH and you perpetually fall short...WHY, Grandma???
Why do you never seem to be able to FIND THE TRUTH?
Whether you like it or not, we have EVIDENCE to support our conclusions...yet you have been at this for how many years and are still searching??? There is no search, it is merely pandering, and you play both sides!!! In fact you play with others who play both sides. Remember Mahta Hari???
Gailon Arthur Joy
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I don't know if you are just fishing or if you are just that uninformed and I don't really care. So, I will be glad to tell you that I am not a part of the couple that are aiming your smart remarks at. As usual, you have brought them in tried to slam them for no apparent reason. I do not know them personally and you don't either, so why continue to make remarks like you do?
The joke of this whole thing is that personally don't know most of the people you try to ruin. If you ever got to know some of them you may find out that they are nothing like you thought....you might even like some of them. IMO those feelings wouldn't be returned as you make it impossible for anyone to like or trust you.
You are misleading your followers about the IRS investigation. You know it, and God knows it. They will find out sooner or later.
What remarks concern you? I have not impuned character or reputation, yet.
But, you are obviously factually challenged here...you referenced a couple? What couple? And if they work at 3ABN and you are close enough to know all the players, then you KNOW THE COUPLE!!!
I stand by my remarks and suggest you start with cleaning up your own camp and Lord knows just how much cleaning there is need of. If you would like me to REALLY start itemizing the sins in the sand, right here on Advent Talk, I should be quite happy to. I doubt you or the 3ABN family wants that much exposure and it is not our purpose to do so. We simply want the mess cleaned up and assurances it will not recur.
As to the IRS Investigation, apparently I know as much as you do. It is clear that all the stuff printed and televised is conjecture purportedly based upon a document disposal request for 13,000 documents. Beyond what your factually challenged camp has printed, I know nothing other than that my poll of those that I know contributed documents, NONE...NADYA....ZIP...ZILCH have been sent documents of been questioned regarding destruction. Perhaps you should list those that have and I shall be happy to question them for clarification, but
DO NOT ASK ME TO BELIEVE ANYTHING YOU OR ANYONE ELSE SAYS AT 3ABN as I have WAY TOO MUCH EVIDENCE THAT THE PLACE IS FULL OF FACTUALLY CHALLENGED COMMENTATORS!!! THAT IS EVIDENCES BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT.
Say hello to your couple and get them to investigate the allegations against Tommy and stop playing the farsical role...ignorance does not become you!!!
Gailon Arthur Joy
Obviously you are the one factually challenged. I said I don't know them personally...and I don't. I know of them. Got it?
As far as your "sins in the sand"...
1. This may come as a shock to you but you aren't Jesus.
2. You claimed to have "all the evidence" of financial wrong doing also...You didn't. You have information but it isn't the kind you can enter into a court of law. Gossip ,lies and false claims won't hold up in a federal court just like they didn't hold up in the IRS investigation.
3. Your threats to expose the sins of others may be the stone that rolls back on you. Your closet is full of stuff that can be verified and entered as evidence in a court of law.
4. Then, it must be noted, if you did have something on all 140 employees that work at 3abn, what does that have to do with the lawsuit you are in? You have made particular accusations (mostly of financial wrong doing) and defamed people in the process. Now that the IRS has blown the financial allegations out of the water do you think a federal judge cares if you think Danny didn't have grounds to remarry or that you didn't approve of the way 3abn handled certain situation? Get a grip on reality.
Remember Gailon, the ones that fed you false information about 3abn finances are the same ones that are telling you other stories. Do you now think they are credible sources? Also remember that everything you are doing to mislead your skeleton crew will come out in the open and it will be your sins written in the sand.
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Ian is 100% correct. Gailon is wrong.
Michael Kopper, no need to be confused... it just takes careful reading and you will see why Ian is right.
Gailon recently made quite a number of venomous posts about the leaders of the ministry Petunia referred to just before he started in on the attack. His explanation for why he was casting aspersions on them, inferring awful things about this couple, was that the "miscreant pastor hunter" has stepped onto his battlefield and is fair game for his crosshairs. I'm of a mind that neither of the young couple are even aware that he thinks they have stepped onto his battlefield. When they do become aware he just might be looking at a brand new law suit if he doesn't reign in his tongue.
Gailon has concluded that Sam is one or the other, or both. Sam is neither the "miscreant pastor hunter" nor the "webmaster" as Gailon claims. Sam stated this in a post. Will Gailon accept this? Who knows. Once either Bob or Gailon has reached a conclusion, accurate or not, it seems to be rare that they are willing to accept that they are wrong.
1+1 = 18 Fran? Only for those who follow the sometimes convoluted logic of Bob and Gailon. Just brush the cobwebs from your eyes and check out the facts.
Also, as a Christian who believes that Earthlings are of only One Race, and, as the grandmother of a partly-Pomo Native American child, and as the friend of others with Native American blood coursing through their veins, I find the "Tonto"-type references a bit on the offensive side.
Grandma,
I find you offensive, but I doubt that surprises you.
I suspect you also know by now that I DO NOT FEAR ANY THREAT OR ATTEMPT AT LITIGATION, particularly from a pastor hunter or the couple. My conclusion was based on good intelligence. I trust yours is based upon actually speaking to the couple, right?
And you have still not explained the most obvious of questions, since you are so "in the know" and the couple originate from your coast...why did YOU not ask them to investigate the allegations against Tommy, IF YOU REALLY WERE CONCERNED ABOUT THE ISSUE? You proclaim you are looking for the TRUTH and you perpetually fall short...WHY, Grandma???
Why do you never seem to be able to FIND THE TRUTH?
Whether you like it or not, we have EVIDENCE to support our conclusions...yet you have been at this for how many years and are still searching??? There is no search, it is merely pandering, and you play both sides!!! In fact you play with others who play both sides. Remember Mahta Hari???
Gailon Arthur Joy
No, I am not at all surprised that you find me offensive. Those who question your behavior generally are found to be offensive to you. The list of offensive ones will only continue to grow as others continue to open their eyes to the real spirit that drives you.
How do you know I haven't contacted the Thompsonville ministry to look into the Tommy Shelton allegations? You don't, because as much as you want to believe differently, you are not omniscient. You also don't know if I have suggested to one or more of the alleged victims that it might be a place to go for healing.
Your information is based on partial and possibly flawed intelligence. You don't have the whole story; the complete picture. Does the "miscreant pastor hunter" work for 3abn? The webmaster does, but does she?
I do happen to know the couple, I just won't provide details further than that.
You have made it abundantly clear that you don't care about behaving in a manner that might bring litigation your way. You freely and irresponsibly set out to attempt to villify others with a kind of smug abandon and seem to think you have some special dispensation to do so. You don't. And you are so wrong about me and my friends. Flawed conclusions based on faulty facts. Or are you just lying?
I was held hostage in a small room for nearly an entire night by someone with a mindset similar to yours. By the grace of God I lived through that torment. I will not stand quietly by while you attempt to focus your twisted fury on those you wish to ruin or attempt to denigrate.
If you wish to squat down and begin writing my sins in the sand, you go right ahead. Better wear protection on your finger because there are lots of them. Someone far more Divine just may be writing yours.
My youngest son shared a quote with me that I think really applies...
A wise man once said:
"Arguing on the internet is a lot like the Special Olympics....nobody ever really wins."
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Grandma,
I find you offensive, but I doubt that surprises you.
I suspect you also know by now that I DO NOT FEAR ANY THREAT OR ATTEMPT AT LITIGATION, particularly from a pastor hunter or the couple. My conclusion was based on good intelligence. I trust yours is based upon actually speaking to the couple, right?
And you have still not explained the most obvious of questions, since you are so "in the know" and the couple originate from your coast...why did YOU not ask them to investigate the allegations against Tommy, IF YOU REALLY WERE CONCERNED ABOUT THE ISSUE? You proclaim you are looking for the TRUTH and you perpetually fall short...WHY, Grandma???
Why do you never seem to be able to FIND THE TRUTH?
Whether you like it or not, we have EVIDENCE to support our conclusions...yet you have been at this for how many years and are still searching??? There is no search, it is merely pandering, and you play both sides!!! In fact you play with others who play both sides. Remember Mahta Hari???
Gailon Arthur Joy
[/quote]
No, I am not at all surprised that you find me offensive. Those who question your behavior generally are found to be offensive to you. The list of offensive ones will only continue to grow as others continue to open their eyes to the real spirit that drives you.
How do you know I haven't contacted the Thompsonville ministry to look into the Tommy Shelton allegations? You don't, because as much as you want to believe differently, you are not omniscient. You also don't know if I have suggested to one or more of the alleged victims that it might be a place to go for healing.
Your information is based on partial and possibly flawed intelligence. You don't have the whole story; the complete picture. Does the "miscreant pastor hunter" work for 3abn? The webmaster does, but does she?
I do happen to know the couple, I just won't provide details further than that.
You have made it abundantly clear that you don't care about behaving in a manner that might bring litigation your way. You freely and irresponsibly set out to attempt to villify others with a kind of smug abandon and seem to think you have some special dispensation to do so. You don't. And you are so wrong about me and my friends. Flawed conclusions based on faulty facts. Or are you just lying?
I was held hostage in a small room for nearly an entire night by someone with a mindset similar to yours. By the grace of God I lived through that torment. I will not stand quietly by while you attempt to focus your twisted fury on those you wish to ruin or attempt to denigrate.
If you wish to squat down and begin writing my sins in the sand, you go right ahead. Better wear protection on your finger because there are lots of them. Someone far more Divine just may be writing yours.
My youngest son shared a quote with me that I think really applies...
A wise man once said:
"Arguing on the internet is a lot like the Special Olympics....nobody ever really wins."
[/quote]
Grandma isn't it sad that all Joy's evil surmising and innuendo is simply because he thought I was one of the couple mentioned? Since I'm not all of his remarks and put downs are for nothing against people he doesn't know. How sad that Joy will use anyone or anything to try and look like he is a step ahead of everyone else. What's really sad is he is several steps behind.
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Obviously you are the one factually challenged. I said I don't know them personally...and I don't. I know of them. Got it?
As far as your "sins in the sand"...
1. This may come as a shock to you but you aren't Jesus.
2. You claimed to have "all the evidence" of financial wrong doing also...You didn't. You have information but it isn't the kind you can enter into a court of law. Gossip ,lies and false claims won't hold up in a federal court just like they didn't hold up in the IRS investigation.
3. Your threats to expose the sins of others may be the stone that rolls back on you. Your closet is full of stuff that can be verified and entered as evidence in a court of law.
4. Then, it must be noted, if you did have something on all 140 employees that work at 3abn, what does that have to do with the lawsuit you are in? You have made particular accusations (mostly of financial wrong doing) and defamed people in the process. Now that the IRS has blown the financial allegations out of the water do you think a federal judge cares if you think Danny didn't have grounds to remarry or that you didn't approve of the way 3abn handled certain situation? Get a grip on reality.
Remember Gailon, the ones that fed you false information about 3abn finances are the same ones that are telling you other stories. Do you now think they are credible sources? Also remember that everything you are doing to mislead your skeleton crew will come out in the open and it will be your sins written in the sand.
I am not concerned about my sins. But your Stone comment is classic Danny!!!
1) I am not Jesus, but the sins of the camp are the sins of the camp...do you think that only Jesus knows the sins???
2) I can safely affirm that I have evidence. It is clear that you are doing your best to prevent the discovery of evidence, but did you see Judge Carmody's order? Bring your xanax as you will need it!!!
3) I am waiting to see just what is relevant? Your version of relevance is irrelevant. But, since my sins are already known, I will not worry about any stones!!!
4) I am only concerned with officers, directors and their families. Remember, you have alleged that we have charged 3ABN with...ah, you know, that favoring family thing???
We clearly have a different personality manning the SAM station tonight!!! Good to see you!!!
By the way, did you get your file closed letter from the IRS yet? Post it just below Duffy, will you?
Will you be adding the investigator to the witness list? Boy, would that be a real feather in the old cap!!! or would it be a stone that rolled back on you???
Gailon Arthur Joy
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Edited to separate quoted post from original post.
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(Good news, Sam..... looks like you are no longer the "miscreant pastor hunter" or her "webmaster". It seems we are back to you being Danny again. Sam, are you Danny Shelton? I really doubt it because Danny Shelton personally knows the "miscreant pastor hunter" and her "webmaster" and you said you didn't. At least Danny Shelton knows them well enough to interview them both and have the webmaster as an employee. Perhaps we should remind Gailon of that fact.)
Gailon. Just a little thought here. You might be wrong about who Sam is.... still. So, continuing to address Sam as though Sam is whoever you think he/she is on any given day makes you look rather silly, IMO.
Instead of trying to unmask or pin an ID onto Sam, perhaps it would be a good idea to review your evidence and make certain every shred of it is really true. The more you have in your evidence file that turns out to be factually challenged, the less the chance that you will prevail before either the Federal court or the court of public opinion.
BTW, just who was it that dubbed you the official sin-in-the-camp-cleaner-upper anyway? There is sin in every camp. There is a right way to deal with sin and there is a wrong way.
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Yes, there is a right way to get sin out of the camp. That has already been tried. Danny wouldn't allow it and ASI backed out, remember? Oh, I almost forgot, it was all Linda's fault, right? How could I forget that!
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2. You claimed to have "all the evidence" of financial wrong doing also...You didn't. You have information but it isn't the kind you can enter into a court of law. Gossip ,lies and false claims won't hold up in a federal court just like they didn't hold up in the IRS investigation.
So you are calling Danny Shelton's claim that he falsified a figure on his 2003 tax return "gossip ,lies and false claims"? Isn't that a bit strong?
You have made particular accusations (mostly of financial wrong doing) and defamed people in the process.
Are you repeating the assertion of another, or are you telling a bald-faced lie? I highly doubt that the majority of the allegations are of a financial nature. A huge chunk of them have to do with Tommy, and a huge chunk of them have to do with Linda. You really think at least 51% of the allegations have to do with finances, or is that just propaganda from the other side?
By the way, you asserted that Danny and Linda made a pittance in 1998, and used that as justification for the private inurement of the real estate deal. You haven't explained how a combined salary of $94,000+ is a mere pittance. Care to try to do so now?
Now that the IRS has blown the financial allegations out of the water do you think a federal judge cares if you think Danny didn't have grounds to remarry or that you didn't approve of the way 3abn handled certain situation? Get a grip on reality.
You are the one who needs to get a grip on reality. In reality, 3ABN and Danny Shelton asked a jury to determine whether he had biblical grounds to divorce and remarry, and so the jury is going to have to look at that whether they want to or not.
Remember Gailon, the ones that fed you false information about 3abn finances are the same ones that are telling you other stories. Do you now think they are credible sources?
No, Danny is not the most credible source in the world, that is for sure. But what makes you think he would lie when he said that he falsified a figure on his 2003 tax return?
More than that, what information about 3ABN finances do you think has been proven false?
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No, I am not at all surprised that you find me offensive. Those who question your behavior generally are found to be offensive to you. The list of offensive ones will only continue to grow as others continue to open their eyes to the real spirit that drives you.
Your response is directed to Gailon, but I will say that you maybe need to ask what spirit drove you to write those unkind words about me.
"Once either Bob or Gailon has reached a conclusion, accurate or not, it seems to be rare that they are willing to accept that they are wrong. ... Only for those who follow the sometimes convoluted logic of Bob and Gailon."
Why write such things? What accurate conclusion have I reached that I have not been willing to accept was wrong? What inaccurate conclusion have I reached that I have not been willing to accept was wrong? Where have I used convoluted logic?
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(Good news, Sam..... looks like you are no longer the "miscreant pastor hunter" or her "webmaster". It seems we are back to you being Danny again. Sam, are you Danny Shelton? I really doubt it because Danny Shelton personally knows the "miscreant pastor hunter" and her "webmaster" and you said you didn't. At least Danny Shelton knows them well enough to interview them both and have the webmaster as an employee. Perhaps we should remind Gailon of that fact.)
Gailon. Just a little thought here. You might be wrong about who Sam is.... still. So, continuing to address Sam as though Sam is whoever you think he/she is on any given day makes you look rather silly, IMO.
Instead of trying to unmask or pin an ID onto Sam, perhaps it would be a good idea to review your evidence and make certain every shred of it is really true. The more you have in your evidence file that turns out to be factually challenged, the less the chance that you will prevail before either the Federal court or the court of public opinion.
BTW, just who was it that dubbed you the official sin-in-the-camp-cleaner-upper anyway? There is sin in every camp. There is a right way to deal with sin and there is a wrong way.
Well, Grandma, still hanging in there, I see. Your venom builds beneath that spirit of self righteousness. Oh, what fun it is to pluck your feathers!!!
1) I am suggesting there is the probability that we have different personalities associated with the posting name SAM, not an unusual occurence in the history of this conflict. But your point that addressing who it is on any given day is clearly immortal. I am guessing you have known for a while that I do not care what your opinion (IMO) is. I find it frequently farsical.
2) The stone rolling back is classic Danny quote. Didn't say it was Danny, grandma.
3) Grandma, the evidence is building and I leave you to your tears of sorrow. Maybe your true allegiances are becoming clear. Is that why you are so stuck on still looking for the truth? Maybe it is right in your back yard. Get out the pick and shovel and...voila...the truth!!!
In the interim, Grandma, keep up that heat. Always a great challenge!!!
Gailon Arthur Joy
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(Good news, Sam..... looks like you are no longer the "miscreant pastor hunter" or her "webmaster". It seems we are back to you being Danny again. Sam, are you Danny Shelton? I really doubt it because Danny Shelton personally knows the "miscreant pastor hunter" and her "webmaster" and you said you didn't. At least Danny Shelton knows them well enough to interview them both and have the webmaster as an employee. Perhaps we should remind Gailon of that fact.)
Gailon. Just a little thought here. You might be wrong about who Sam is.... still. So, continuing to address Sam as though Sam is whoever you think he/she is on any given day makes you look rather silly, IMO.
Instead of trying to unmask or pin an ID onto Sam, perhaps it would be a good idea to review your evidence and make certain every shred of it is really true. The more you have in your evidence file that turns out to be factually challenged, the less the chance that you will prevail before either the Federal court or the court of public opinion.
BTW, just who was it that dubbed you the official sin-in-the-camp-cleaner-upper anyway? There is sin in every camp. There is a right way to deal with sin and there is a wrong way.
Well, Grandma, still hanging in there, I see. Your venom builds beneath that spirit of self righteousness. Oh, what fun it is to pluck your feathers!!!
It's called resolve, Gailon. I am no better or no worse than any other human being on this planet and hardly self righteous, but I do have principles that I stand by.
How does your wife feel about you plucking the feathers of a married woman? Seems a rather tacky and inappropriate thing to say, IMO.
1) I am suggesting there is the probability that we have different personalities associated with the posting name SAM, not an unusual occurence in the history of this conflict. But your point that addressing who it is on any given day is clearly immortal. I am guessing you have known for a while that I do not care what your opinion (IMO) is. I find it frequently farsical.
Suggesting? What I read is more like an unequivocal statment:
Some of the multiple personality respondents have clearly fallen silent. But, as we have seen, there are clearly rotating shifts and someone will be back someday!!!
But then, there is always Grandma Nettie. She should be good for a response. Come on, Grandma, I have my red cape out!!!
Gailon Arthur Joy
2) The stone rolling back is classic Danny quote. Didn't say it was Danny, grandma.
No, you didn't say the name "Danny", but who else were you addressing in this post?
I am not concerned about my sins. But your Stone comment is classic Danny!!!
1) I am not Jesus, but the sins of the camp are the sins of the camp...do you think that only Jesus knows the sins???
2) I can safely affirm that I have evidence. It is clear that you are doing your best to prevent the discovery of evidence, but did you see Judge Carmody's order? Bring your xanax as you will need it!!!
3) I am waiting to see just what is relevant? Your version of relevance is irrelevant. But, since my sins are already known, I will not worry about any stones!!!
4) I am only concerned with officers, directors and their families. Remember, you have alleged that we have charged 3ABN with...ah, you know, that favoring family thing???
We clearly have a different personality manning the SAM station tonight!!! Good to see you!!!
By the way, did you get your file closed letter from the IRS yet? Post it just below Duffy, will you?
Will you be adding the investigator to the witness list? Boy, would that be a real feather in the old cap!!! or would it be a stone that rolled back on you???
Gailon Arthur Joy
3) Grandma, the evidence is building and I leave you to your tears of sorrow. Maybe your true allegiances are becoming clear. Is that why you are so stuck on still looking for the truth? Maybe it is right in your back yard. Get out the pick and shovel and...voila...the truth!!!
In the interim, Grandma, keep up that heat. Always a great challenge!!!
Gailon Arthur Joy
I prefer to find and verify facts in the more traditional manner. Is the dirt in your back yard where you are coming up with your evidence, your facts?
Perhaps you were just tired, stressed out or muddled and flustered because, IMO, your recent posts have neither edified your position in any manner nor ruffled my feathers.
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Obviously you are the one factually challenged. I said I don't know them personally...and I don't. I know of them. Got it?
As far as your "sins in the sand"...
1. This may come as a shock to you but you aren't Jesus.
2. You claimed to have "all the evidence" of financial wrong doing also...You didn't. You have information but it isn't the kind you can enter into a court of law. Gossip ,lies and false claims won't hold up in a federal court just like they didn't hold up in the IRS investigation.
3. Your threats to expose the sins of others may be the stone that rolls back on you. Your closet is full of stuff that can be verified and entered as evidence in a court of law.
4. Then, it must be noted, if you did have something on all 140 employees that work at 3abn, what does that have to do with the lawsuit you are in? You have made particular accusations (mostly of financial wrong doing) and defamed people in the process. Now that the IRS has blown the financial allegations out of the water do you think a federal judge cares if you think Danny didn't have grounds to remarry or that you didn't approve of the way 3abn handled certain situation? Get a grip on reality.
Remember Gailon, the ones that fed you false information about 3abn finances are the same ones that are telling you other stories. Do you now think they are credible sources? Also remember that everything you are doing to mislead your skeleton crew will come out in the open and it will be your sins written in the sand.
I am not concerned about my sins. But your Stone comment is classic Danny!!!
1) I am not Jesus, but the sins of the camp are the sins of the camp...do you think that only Jesus knows the sins???
2) I can safely affirm that I have evidence. It is clear that you are doing your best to prevent the discovery of evidence, but did you see Judge Carmody's order? Bring your xanax as you will need it!!!
3) I am waiting to see just what is relevant? Your version of relevance is irrelevant. But, since my sins are already known, I will not worry about any stones!!!
4) I am only concerned with officers, directors and their families. Remember, you have alleged that we have charged 3ABN with...ah, you know, that favoring family thing???
We clearly have a different personality manning the SAM station tonight!!! Good to see you!!!
By the way, did you get your file closed letter from the IRS yet? Post it just below Duffy, will you?
Will you be adding the investigator to the witness list? Boy, would that be a real feather in the old cap!!! or would it be a stone that rolled back on you???
Gailon Arthur Joy
Gailon, your stabs at who you think is posting make little sense to me, since you are always wrong, and make even less sense to those reading. By trying to be cute your posts end up making no sense, going nowhere, and end up sounding like they are written by someone not quite playing with a full deck.
I will address what I can make out.
Evidence. You clearly do not have "evidence". You have information. Big difference. If you cannot see the difference I'm sure the Federal Judge will be more than happy to explain it to you.
You have signed statements by ex spouses, ex employees, friends of both, etc saying that they witnessed or in some way "know" this or that. When they are called to the stand, they will have no way of proving their statements. It will all end up as heresay just as the financial allegations have.
Your sins are already known? No...your embezzelment is already known...Big difference.
As for your comments that imply Sam is 2 different people let me promise you that is not the case. I am the same past, present and future. No one else posts for me. They say people always accuse you of things they are guilty of. Makes me wonder if this doesn't apply to you and your side.
An investigator? I have no idea what you are trying to imply with that one.
You are concerned with officers, directors and their families? First of all who is a "director"? I haven't heard anyone associated with 3abn called a director except the production directors. And..what are you concerned about? Let me guess. You have been told more "stories" about them..people willing to testify that they did this or said that. But, again, it will be he said/she said as your witnesses will have no evidence that stands up in a court of law.
You are right about one thing. My version of what is relevant is irrelevant since I am not an attorney for 3abn. But, what you want will be irrelevant also. The judge will decide.
Yes, Jesus knows all sin and everyone has or has had sin in their lives at one time or another. We can safely say we are all on equal footing when it comes to that subject.
I know nothing about a file closed letter from the IRS. I read the letter from the attorney's that were in contact with the IRS. That's good enough for me and most of the population.
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Edited to separate new post from quoted posts.
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Sam,
So you are saying that Danny's and Walt's written statements are mere he said/she said, and won't hold up in court because he doesn't know what he is talking about?
And you don't know what a director is?
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You have GOT to be kidding!! Who is a director?? You really don't know??
Gailon, your stabs at who you think is posting make little sense to me, since you are always wrong, and make even less sense to those reading. By trying to be cute your posts end up making no sense, going nowhere, and end up sounding like they are written by someone not quite playing with a full deck.
I will address what I can make out.
Evidence. You clearly do not have "evidence". You have information. Big difference. If you cannot see the difference I'm sure the Federal Judge will be more than happy to explain it to you.
You have signed statements by ex spouses, ex employees, friends of both, etc saying that they witnessed or in some way "know" this or that. When they are called to the stand, they will have no way of proving their statements. It will all end up as heresay just as the financial allegations have.
Your sins are already known? No...your embezzelment is already known...Big difference.
As for your comments that imply Sam is 2 different people let me promise you that is not the case. I am the same past, present and future. No one else posts for me. They say people always accuse you of things they are guilty of. Makes me wonder if this doesn't apply to you and your side.
An investigator? I have no idea what you are trying to imply with that one.
You are concerned with officers, directors and their families? First of all who is a "director"? I haven't heard anyone associated with 3abn called a director except the production directors. And..what are you concerned about? Let me guess. You have been told more "stories" about them..people willing to testify that they did this or said that. But, again, it will be he said/she said as your witnesses will have no evidence that stands up in a court of law.
You are right about one thing. My version of what is relevant is irrelevant since I am not an attorney for 3abn. But, what you want will be irrelevant also. The judge will decide.
Yes, Jesus knows all sin and everyone has or has had sin in their lives at one time or another. We can safely say we are all on equal footing when it comes to that subject.
I know nothing about a file closed letter from the IRS. I read the letter from the attorney's that were in contact with the IRS. That's good enough for me and most of the population.
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Gailon, your stabs at who you think is posting make little sense to me, since you are always wrong, and make even less sense to those reading. By trying to be cute your posts end up making no sense, going nowhere, and end up sounding like they are written by someone not quite playing with a full deck.
I will address what I can make out.
Evidence. You clearly do not have "evidence". You have information. Big difference. If you cannot see the difference I'm sure the Federal Judge will be more than happy to explain it to you.
You have signed statements by ex spouses, ex employees, friends of both, etc saying that they witnessed or in some way "know" this or that. When they are called to the stand, they will have no way of proving their statements. It will all end up as heresay just as the financial allegations have.
Your sins are already known? No...your embezzelment is already known...Big difference.
[/quote]
SAM,
Unfortunately for you, I know what "evidence" is and we have enough. Just for the record, the statements of witnesses entered into the record is "evidence". But, we have plenty of "physical evidence" in the form of documents and exhibits. Enough to convince more than one judge that we have a basis for our subpoenas. And we will have more to come. I realize it is Danny's only strategy to keep us from getting "physical evidence" but he has failed in Minnesotta, Michigan and several other jurisdictions and he will fail in Southern Illinois and other jurisdictions. GET USE TO IT!!!
The PHYSICAL EVIDENCE IS BUILDING QUITE NICELY AND SEEMS TO SUPPORT THE STATEMENTS OF ALL THOSE WITNESSES!!! Now, SAM, what is the back-up plan as you watch the first one erode!!!
Let's see, what are the options...put Danny on the stand and let him deny the factuality of the exhibits??? Or maybe you could get his Attorney to testify???
Me thinks you has lost this game and me thinks that you will loose at trial. And me thinks that you will have to concoct some story to cover the loss!!!
Oh, yeah, there is one more option...Danny could simply dismiss the Federal Lawsuit, declare victory, you know, the way he claims the IRS case found nothing!!! Pretend it is all over and then pray that we don't file suit for misuse of process!!! Sorry, oh boy, that is a checkmate against 3ABN and not a good exit strategy. Would get quite expensive and we would have to get those documents anyway. Not a good strategy!!! And the lawyers would have a vested interest as well!!!
Now what???
That is what me knows!!! But who am I?
Gailon Arthur Joy
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Gailon, your stabs at who you think is posting make little sense to me, since you are always wrong, and make even less sense to those reading. By trying to be cute your posts end up making no sense, going nowhere, and end up sounding like they are written by someone not quite playing with a full deck.
I will address what I can make out.
Evidence. You clearly do not have "evidence". You have information. Big difference. If you cannot see the difference I'm sure the Federal Judge will be more than happy to explain it to you.
You have signed statements by ex spouses, ex employees, friends of both, etc saying that they witnessed or in some way "know" this or that. When they are called to the stand, they will have no way of proving their statements. It will all end up as heresay just as the financial allegations have.
Your sins are already known? No...your embezzelment is already known...Big difference.
SAM,
Unfortunately for you, I know what "evidence" is and we have enough. Just for the record, the statements of witnesses entered into the record is "evidence". But, we have plenty of "physical evidence" in the form of documents and exhibits. Enough to convince more than one judge that we have a basis for our subpoenas. And we will have more to come. I realize it is Danny's only strategy to keep us from getting "physical evidence" but he has failed in Minnesotta, Michigan and several other jurisdictions and he will fail in Southern Illinois and other jurisdictions. GET USE TO IT!!!
The PHYSICAL EVIDENCE IS BUILDING QUITE NICELY AND SEEMS TO SUPPORT THE STATEMENTS OF ALL THOSE WITNESSES!!! Now, SAM, what is the back-up plan as you watch the first one erode!!!
Let's see, what are the options...put Danny on the stand and let him deny the factuality of the exhibits??? Or maybe you could get his Attorney to testify???
Me thinks you has lost this game and me thinks that you will loose at trial. And me thinks that you will have to concoct some story to cover the loss!!!
Oh, yeah, there is one more option...Danny could simply dismiss the Federal Lawsuit, declare victory, you know, the way he claims the IRS case found nothing!!! Pretend it is all over and then pray that we don't file suit for misuse of process!!! Sorry, oh boy, that is a checkmate against 3ABN and not a good exit strategy. Would get quite expensive and we would have to get those documents anyway. Not a good strategy!!! And the lawyers would have a vested interest as well!!!
Now what???
That is what me knows!!! But who am I?
Gailon Arthur Joy
The internal control of morals\finances used within the regularly organized church are in a sad state of affairs. I base this on what I have learned from a number of well-positioned unimpeachable members in re conference leadership constituency nominating committe's ousting a conference president in each of three separate vote when the union president urged a truce to allow the president to remain where he would personally see that a solution was effected within a reasonable window. I think we may be nearing a third year of a quinquinnum with no outward indication of any movement whatsoever.
I have generally viewed each alleged cooperating independent ministry, no matter the affiliation, as a Davidian\Kresh-type empowered as a potential financial leach and\or moral\Advent message diluting vehicle whereby any voting power accompanys any of the various and sundry corpate empowering provisions or by-laws of the appurtenant affililiations.
My view of the demeaning influence of the leaders of the regularly organized church in re organized financial support of alleged supporting independent ministries is waning directly in proportion to the organized church's view of the moral values being publicly displayed by that alleged cooperating ministire's leadership, internal control, and directorship controls when viewed with their own corporate needs. I see little demeaning influence of any message board flowing outside the confines of the conservative membership of the Advent church in their feeble corporate attempt to manage their own financial needs over the mid-term. Those with lack of moral and financial confidence building finesse and without an educational level to compliment same can also have a negative influence on financial management confidences for continued support.
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Edited to separate post frrom quoted posts.
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My view of the demeaning influence of the leaders of the regularly organized church in re organized financial support of alleged supporting independent ministries is waning directly in proportion to the organized church's view of the moral values being publicly displayed by that alleged cooperating ministire's leadership, internal control, and directorship controls when viewed with their own corporate needs. I see little demeaning influence of any message board flowing outside the confines of the conservative membership of the Advent church in their feeble corporate attempt to manage their own financial needs over the mid-term. Those with lack of moral and financial confidence building finesse and without an educational level to compliment same can also have a negative influence on financial management confidences for continued support.
Hi irspro,
I wish I could say that I understand your long, vague sentences any better than I did over at BSDA, but alas, I must be legally/numerically challenged, because at least half the time I am not quite sure what you are trying to say. :dunno: Any way you can put it more simply?
scratsmom... :hamster:
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Any IRS exam needs to be practical rather than just a theory. Informant matters do not mandate mandatory audits. IRS employment integrity and Discriminate Function Formula tweaking by IRS statisticians are the only mandatory of which I am aware.
The alleged professionals representing taxpayers discussed on these threads have not benefitted their clients with "any" alleged disclosure of which I am aware. Professionals do not need to acknowledge that an audit is being conducted; furthermore, feebly attempt to allege that an audit has ended based on any alleged "return of any type" of records.
If the lawyers representing the alleged taxpayers will properly exercise their Privy responsibilities as they should have ab initio, you will not become aware of any official Exam Division closing unless the audit becomes the subject of published case law. Sit idly by and listen for Exam Division chatter rather than Criminal Division as the case can only be finally closed by the Exam Division, period!
As a former Large Case Manager and Appeals Officer, among many other duties, these IRS matters appears to have been a comedy of mismanagement at some level from a revenue standpoint. Audits made in search of integrity levels are seldom worth the cost other than to the informant unless there is financial remuneration. I suggest all on both sides of the matter to become disconnected ASAP unless you care to finally learn that I have always been technically correct administratively where you can review the Internal Revenue Manual cited in a posted URL. Keep in mind that the IRM is not one and the same as the Internal Revenue Code.
Be careful about being overheard based on an incident this past week about a fellow church member. Bro. X was visited by the new district pastor. Bro. X was in prison for a 4 year term. I was keenly aware that Bro. X was involved with the mortgage business in some capacity which I thought as uncharacteristic, at first blush. I was also aware of the turmoil in the mortgage industry as an investor\trader and of which I was insulated from that sector. I quitely seached the Federal Bureau of Prisons with a successful hit. I later overheard of a large amount nearing a million being confiscated as well as a former prison term involving Bro. X. Much of this was available from church phone committee member, it would appear. I approached one close to me that could have informed me; however, they chose to remain silent which I greatly appreciate since I now feel very undone for my fellow brothers just like I did when I was informed about the 13 teen pregnancies in the church will some probably clergy related. Do you faintly get the picture as you hopefully retire from this IRS thing like me unless some may query IRS procedure as opposed to tax law?