Advent Talk
Issues & Concerns Category => 3ABN => Topic started by: Artiste on July 15, 2008, 08:53:05 AM
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Featured on the lower part of the inside back cover of 3ABN World, below the Trust Services advertisement, is this section. Every month a picture of items such as camera equipment, a TV, an RV or vintage glass is included.
The March, 2008 issue explains that a couple from California gave the wonderful gift of their '94 Gulfstream motor home to 3ABN's ministry!
From the July, 2008 issue of 3ABN World:
If you have a something of value that you would like to use for the Lord’s work, please contact our Donation Center managers, Bruce and Tammy Chance, at 618-627-4651, or e-mail tammy.shelton@3abn.org. All gifts are tax-deductible in the United States.
The July issue also mentions that Bruce and Tammy Chance will be at the 3ABN booth at Tampa, Florida, for the ASI convention.
It is noted that "If you have something of value to donate, they will be happy to accept it with our gratitude and thanks".
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Fran's research has brought us the information that "Tammy's Variety Outlet" was established on eBay in 2004.
Fran has also mentioned a "Three Angels Clothing" with the implication that this was also an eBay store of Tammy's.
The following is from the Yahoo group:
3abnDefended@yahoogroups.com
Re: STRAIGHT ANSWERS TO EBAY QUESTIONS
Mon Jun 16, 2008 6:25 am
#94 of 258 "sam11584" <sam11584@...>
Quotation from e-mail communication, Tammy Shelton Chance:
"I have NEVER and DO NOT NOW have an ebay store."
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It appears to be a well-accepted fact that 3ABN sells their donated items on eBay in order to bring the financial value of the gifts to 3ABN's ministry.
Why then does Tammy Shelton Chance, Donation Center Manager, deny having had any eBay stores?
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It appears to be a well-accepted fact that 3ABN sells their donated items on eBay in order to bring the financial value of the gifts to 3ABN's ministry.
Why then does Tammy Shelton Chance, Donation Center Manager, deny having had any eBay stores?
Quite amazing. The evidence is there, so can't work out why there is the denial from Tammy. Sounds mighty strange to me. :scratch: :dunno:
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These unexplained factualy challenged statements seem to run in the family. Wonder if it is genetic?
Gailon Arthur Joy
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Does anyone here know Tammy well enough to ask if she can explain the discrepancies?
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Does anyone here know Tammy well enough to ask if she can explain the discrepancies?
I would think that Jack and Sam, as strident as they have been in defense of proving,would have already notified Tammy.
No I don't have a store and never had one sounds a little hollow about now.
Some have taken a pretty good verbal tromping from both Sam and Jack. Whether it is they do it or the other side of this does, perhaps at least an acknowledgement of being wrong might be in order.
If they good so ardently defend with such vigor they must know Tammy personally and wold be able to ask.
Perhaps a trip to the recipe section might be in order
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Those that are interested enough probably can get the contact thru ebay. I have not done so for a long time so don't remember if you have to be a buyer or not.
Mine has been given out several times by ebay. Even my phone number which I can't say I care for.
In the case of the disappearing feedback and the frequent switching of names Fran posted,it is almost a certainty that different accounts were opened. Most seeler's are careful when opening accounts. Many of us have opened under a new name when what we were selling did not reflect the name we were using. To change it frequently without feedback being able to be brought forward signals the buyer to be ware.
I have two which there is nothing wrong with. The new one I opened had to have a different e-mail address. It still carries my other personal info but the new account will no longer bring forward the previous feedback even if I close the first one.If this is simply switching names of seller feed back will remain.
You can also open a account and put any name you choose for your store or auction listings. What you can't do if you have been banned or suspended have Uncle Joe open a account and you sell thru there.
Several are caught that way.
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There has also been mention of "Tammy's Tiles" as a store.
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"When is a store not a store?" :help:
:help: "I'm sooo confused."
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These postings have me confused. Tammy is a common name. Tammy'store on eBay could be Tammy Jones for all that I know. Can someone clarify this one?
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Kitty, I haven't seen any verification yet about Tammy's Tiles, but it looks like Tammy's Variety store or shop or whatever really was Tammy Shelton Chance's.
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So at this point it is still speculation as to which Tammy operated Tammy's store.
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1. The Tammy that had Tammy's Variety Outlet is located in West Frankfort, IL.
2. 812worden was the user name of Tammy Chance.
From what I can tell, those two points are beyond dispute.
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It seems that 812 Worden could be an address in West Frankfort.
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So at this point it is still speculation as to which Tammy operated Tammy's store.
Not quite sure what you had in mind in making this statement, Kitty.
Or maybe you missed Bob's clarification.
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It appears to be a well-accepted fact that 3ABN sells their donated items on eBay in order to bring the financial value of the gifts to 3ABN's ministry.
Why then does Tammy Shelton Chance, Donation Center Manager, deny having had any eBay stores?
Here is another of Tammy's statements from her e-mail on the Yahoo site:
"My personal ebay practices have no connection to 3abn and would actually be nobody's business. I do not mean that in a hateful way, but I just can't imagine why anybody would be interested in something so minute."
In that case, why would people be interested or care if she has sold on eBay or not?
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Artiste,.
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Bob just did not seem positive that he knew for sure if it was Tammy Chance or not.
I am well aware that there are serious problems back in Illinois as I personally know a number of people that have either worked there or been involved as volunteers. I have been in touch with 3abn for about a decade so I am not in the dark about this very sad situation for the work of the gospel.
I just think that we should be clear in our facts.
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You will find that I characteristically try to limit my statements to what I can demonstrate beyond reasonable doubt. Thus I may not have previously explicitly stated that Tammy Chance was the Tammy in West Frankfort.
But I think I can state that now.
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Hhmm... I tried mapquest...
http://www.mapquest.com/maps?city=West+Frankfort&state=IL&address=812+Worden&zipcode=62896
It seems that 812 Worden could be an address in West Frankfort.
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Hhmm... I tried mapquest...
http://www.mapquest.com/maps?city=West+Frankfort&state=IL&address=812+Worden&zipcode=62896
It seems that 812 Worden could be an address in West Frankfort.
Good work Snoopy. You keep on 'Snooping'. You're doing a great job! :dogwag:
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It appears to be a well-accepted fact that 3ABN sells their donated items on eBay in order to bring the financial value of the gifts to 3ABN's ministry.
Why then does Tammy Shelton Chance, Donation Center Manager, deny having had any eBay stores?
She not deny 3ABN having Three Angels Gift Shop. She just denys having her own store.
Here is another of Tammy's statements from her e-mail on the Yahoo site:
"My personal ebay practices have no connection to 3abn and would actually be nobody's business. I do not mean that in a hateful way, but I just can't imagine why anybody would be interested in something so minute."
In that case, why would people be interested or care if she has sold on eBay or not?
Is Fran and friends interested, looking up, caring, and bringing up over and over.
Ask them.
I think would not be important to be "interested or care if she sold on Ebay or not" if they not trying to say that Tammy Chance big thief.
Is not good but they try hard to find something wrong so can be right about what they say about 3ABN and all Sheltons.
They will not stop doing this.
That is what I think.
Sera
edit to fix how I write post. :)
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Hhmm... I tried mapquest...
http://www.mapquest.com/maps?city=West+Frankfort&state=IL&address=812+Worden&zipcode=62896
It seems that 812 Worden could be an address in West Frankfort.
Because Kemosabe say "Could be an address"?
So? Point is what?
Why use time "snooping" about that?
edit to quote :)
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It appears to be a well-accepted fact that 3ABN sells their donated items on eBay in order to bring the financial value of the gifts to 3ABN's ministry.
Why then does Tammy Shelton Chance, Donation Center Manager, deny having had any eBay stores?
She not deny 3ABN having Three Angels Gift Shop. She just denys having her own store.
Which is the point that was made. She denied ever having a store, and yet she appears to have had Tammy's Variety Outlet. No explanation has yet been given for this discrepancy.
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It appears to be a well-accepted fact that 3ABN sells their donated items on eBay in order to bring the financial value of the gifts to 3ABN\'s ministry.
Why then does Tammy Shelton Chance, Donation Center Manager, deny having had any eBay stores?
She not deny 3ABN having Three Angels Gift Shop. She just denys having her own store.
Which is the point that was made. She denied ever having a store, and yet she appears to have had Tammy\'s Variety Outlet. No explanation has yet been given for this discrepancy.
I agree with Serendipity\'s posts. This whole agenda to indite anything Shelton has become absurdly petty and vindictive. In a word it is a joke. And sad to say several of you have made yourselves the [censored] of the joke by going to ridiculous means and ends to find janything to use to point a finger or find fault.
Has it ever once occurred to you that the discrepancy may have nothing to do with Tammy Chance?
Even if she did have a store, (which she claims she did not have, and Ebay has no record of) so what?
What does that Have to do with 3ABN, any of the allegations against them, or the \"lawsuite\"?
The IRS found nothing criminally wrong in their Investigation of 3Abns finances. Deal with it Mr Pickle and move on.
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Jack, looks like you are changing the claim. The claim was that the IRS did not find one infraction or discrepancy, and now you are saying that the IRS found nothing criminally wrong. Which is it?
Now you've asked what Tammy apparently lying about not having a store has to do with 3ABN. Remember how Tammy was specially featured at 3ABN's camp meeting/10 Commandment weekend? Why would she be specially featured if she does indeed break the 9th commandment, and then refuses to apologize for doing so?
We are all sinners, but God does expect confession, repentance, obedience, and restitution. 3ABN has trouble in this area.
So Jack, do you really feel that lying is "so what"?
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Jack, looks like you are changing the claim. The claim was that the IRS did not find one infraction or discrepancy, and now you are saying that the IRS found nothing criminally wrong. Which is it?
Now you\\\'ve asked what Tammy apparently lying about not having a store has to do with 3ABN. Remember how Tammy was specially featured at 3ABN\\\'s camp meeting/10 Commandment weekend? Why would she be specially featured if she does indeed break the 9th commandment, and then refuses to apologize for doing so?
We are all sinners, but God does expect confession, repentance, obedience, and restitution. 3ABN has trouble in this area.
So Jack, do you really feel that lying is \"so what\"?
Bob,
1. You have alleged that Danny Shelton did something criminally wrong, the IRS did not agree. Accept it and move on.
In addition it appears from the announcements by 3ABN that the IRS did not find any discrepancies or infractions. That 3ABN Live, Behind the scenes, with Jim Gilley re airs this afternoon.
2. Those are your words in the bold text above. They are not my words. That is not my question.
These tactics and methods you use hurt your credibility and make your own arguments invalid.
A fallacy is a component of an argument which, being demonstrably flawed in its logic or form, renders the argument invalid in whole. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy) [/url]
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Jack, I note your quotes around "lawsuite" above. I'm frankly surprised that our resident grammar expert, Eduard, has not posted one of his essays on proper use of the English language aimed at Gailon for his interesting spelling of the word. It is an actual word, however, at least when there is a space between:
From the American Bar Association Publication, How to Start and Build a Law Practice, (3rd Edition) by Jay G. Foonberg. (http://members.aol.com/ethesis/pages/fegen.htm)]
"By definition, a law suite is a large office where many different attorneys practice. These attorneys may be sole practitioners or they may be small firms, but they are not the tenants of the owner of the building. They are subtenants, or licensees of the tenant ..." At page 42.
"A law suite gives the attorney a flexibility unattainable in the traditional landlord/tenant relationship ..." At page 43.
"Paul Fegen (pronounced FEE-jin) is the pioneer in the concept of the law suite. It is to his credit that the law suite is also known as the Fegen Suite." At page 44.
A legal suite is not a partnership, an association or an "of counsel" relationship. All attorneys in this legal suite are in sole practice.
So it doesn't actually refer to the legal process know as a law suit, but is in the wider ball park of legal terminology. If it has been a source of quiet irritation to Eduard, he can now relax as it has been duly addressed.
Most of us have interesting little uniquely individual quirks that identify us, sort of like Marylin Monroe's mole...
President Bush says "nucular"...
Danny Shelton says "internets"...
Gailon Arthur Joy says "law suite"...
Let's just hope, for Gailon's sake, that Paul Fegen hasn't trademarked, registered or copyrighted the term and is expecting royalties for its use.
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Dear Jack,
\\\\///\/\/\\\\////\\//\/\//////\\///////\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
*#)&^#@$%&(_+*&^#@$@%^^(&%&$%^#$@##!#@!$%^$^%%()*&
:puppykisses:
Love,
Snoopy
Jack, looks like you are changing the claim. The claim was that the IRS did not find one infraction or discrepancy, and now you are saying that the IRS found nothing criminally wrong. Which is it?
Now you\\\'ve asked what Tammy apparently lying about not having a store has to do with 3ABN. Remember how Tammy was specially featured at 3ABN\\\'s camp meeting/10 Commandment weekend? Why would she be specially featured if she does indeed break the 9th commandment, and then refuses to apologize for doing so?
We are all sinners, but God does expect confession, repentance, obedience, and restitution. 3ABN has trouble in this area.
So Jack, do you really feel that lying is \"so what\"?
Bob,
1. You have alleged that Danny Shelton did something criminally wrong, the IRS did not agree. Accept it and move on.
In addition it appears from the announcements by 3ABN that the IRS did not find any discrepancies or infractions. That 3ABN Live, Behind the scenes, with Jim Gilley re airs this afternoon.
2. Those are your words in the bold text above. They are not my words. That is not my question.
These tactics and methods you use hurt your credibility and make your own arguments invalid.
A fallacy is a component of an argument which, being demonstrably flawed in its logic or form, renders the argument invalid in whole. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy) [/url]
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Bob,
1. You have alleged that Danny Shelton did something criminally wrong, the IRS did not agree. Accept it and move on.
Jack, could you quote where I have accused Danny of doing something criminally wrong in contrast with something civilly wrong? Then we can talk about it.
In addition it appears from the announcements by 3ABN that the IRS did not find any discrepancies or infractions. That 3ABN Live, Behind the scenes, with Jim Gilley re airs this afternoon.
Jack, please stop this utter nonsense that reporting a donation of property as cash on one's Sched. A is not an infraction or discrepancy.
Seventh-day Adventists believe in thinking for ourselves, not mindlessly following the crowd. That's why we keep the 7th day as the Sabbath, regardless of how many scholars or popes say that we are wrong. Thus, no knowledgeable Adventist is going to accept the line that reporting a donation of property as cash is neither an infraction nor a discrepancy.
2. Those are your words in the bold text above. They are not my words. That is not my question.
These tactics and methods you use hurt your credibility and make your own arguments invalid.
But weren't those your words? You said:
"Even if she did have a store, (which she claims she did not have, and Ebay has no record of) so what?
"What does that Have to do with 3ABN, any of the allegations against them, or the "lawsuite"?"
Aren't you therefore asking what it has to do with 3ABN if Tammy allegedly lied about allegedly having a store? Aren't you asking "so what" if someone lied and refuses to apologize?
If you weren't asking that, what were you asking?
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Bob,
1. You have alleged that Danny Shelton did something criminally wrong, the IRS did not agree. Accept it and move on.
Jack, could you quote where I have accused Danny of doing something criminally wrong in contrast with something civilly wrong? Then we can talk about it.
In addition it appears from the announcements by 3ABN that the IRS did not find any discrepancies or infractions. That 3ABN Live, Behind the scenes, with Jim Gilley re airs this afternoon.
Jack, please stop this utter nonsense that reporting a donation of property as cash on one\'s Sched. A is not an infraction or discrepancy.
It is difficult to communicate with you Bob.
Let me try to understand what you have been and are still claiming about Danny Shelton and the IRS.
You are not claiming what you say he did was criminally wrong?
You claim it is civil something?
But not a civil infraction and not a discrepancy?
So Danny is guilty, according to you of a civil ______ ?
--- deleted sermon or lecture --
2. Those are your words in the bold text above. They are not my words. That is not my question.
These tactics and methods you use hurt your credibility and make your own arguments invalid.
But weren\'t those your words? You said:
\"Even if she did have a store, (which she claims she did not have, and Ebay has no record of) so what?
\"What does that Have to do with 3ABN, any of the allegations against them, or the \"lawsuite\"?\"
Aren\'t you therefore asking what it has to do with 3ABN if Tammy allegedly lied about allegedly having a store? Aren\'t you asking \"so what\" if someone lied and refuses to apologize?
If you weren\'t asking that, what were you asking?
It occurs to me this constant taking things said the wrong way is why it is so easy for you to keep finding fault with so many people, and why they keep thinking you are not honest.
Let us go back in time for a moment.
Back to before Tammy Chance ever said word one in reply to questions asked of her about a stores plural owned by her....
Back to the time before a reply from Tammy Chance in response to anything Fran said claiming there were stores owned by Tammy Shelton.
So this would be before Tammy Shelton ever clarified she had no personal store on Ebay.
Are you with me?
Now all were talking about Tammy owning stores on Ebay.
Why?
If she had such a store. \"WHAT does that Have to do with 3ABN, any of the allegations against them, or the \"lawsuite\"?\"
If you can not understand me or my question now or stop changing my words and meanings, I am afraid you will just have to keep arguing with your strawman by yourself. If I keep feeding the flames here I have friends who are going to throw a bucket of cold water on me.
Jax
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Jack, I note your quotes around \"lawsuite\" above. I\'m frankly surprised that our resident grammar expert, Eduard, has not posted one of his essays on proper use of the English language aimed at Gailon for his interesting spelling of the word. It is an actual word, however, at least when there is a space between:
From the American Bar Association Publication, How to Start and Build a Law Practice, (3rd Edition) by Jay G. Foonberg. (http://members.aol.com/ethesis/pages/fegen.htm)]
\"By definition, a law suite is a large office where many different attorneys practice. These attorneys may be sole practitioners or they may be small firms, but they are not the tenants of the owner of the building. They are subtenants, or licensees of the tenant ...\" At page 42.
\\\\\\\"A law suite gives the attorney a flexibility unattainable in the traditional landlord/tenant relationship ...\" At page 43.
\"Paul Fegen (pronounced FEE-jin) is the pioneer in the concept of the law suite. It is to his credit that the law suite is also known as the Fegen Suite.\" At page 44.
A legal suite is not a partnership, an association or an \"of counsel\" relationship. All attorneys in this legal suite are in sole practice.
So it doesn\'t actually refer to the legal process know as a law suit, but is in the wider ball park of legal terminology. If it has been a source of quiet irritation to Eduard, he can now relax as it has been duly addressed.
Thank you Grandma Nettie for that explanation. It was Gailons consistent use of the words lawsuite and suite by itself which caused me to put it in quotes.
I had looked it up and found this:
http://www.onelook.com/?w=lawsuite&ls=a
Most of us have interesting little uniquely individual quirks that identify us, sort of like Marylin Monroes mole...
President Bush says \"nucular\"...
Danny Shelton says \"internets\"...
Gailon Arthur Joy says \"law suite\"...
Lets just hope, for Gailon\'s sake, that Paul Fegen hasn\'t trademarked, registered or copyrighted the term and is expecting royalties for its use.
It doesn\'t bother me if someone makes the occasional slip of tongue or misspelling or typographical error, I think we all may do that. I know I do.
I had to laugh at myself because I almost corrected your examples here.
I thought at first you must have confused Danny Shelton with George Bush:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKTH6f1JfX8
But right before I posted to you I decided I should not assume and act on tht, so I decided to search to see if he had said *internets* Good thing I did because I found the reference you were referring to.
http://www.blacksda.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=14502&hl=internets
The clip is short. (Only about 40 sec) but I agree with him and think he made a good point.
Of course the link to him saying internets will not work as it is on BSDA, so I have added the necessary dash.
http://www.save-3abn.com/media/07-07-19-rumors-internet-320x240-141k.htm
If only the good news spread as fast as the gossip and bad news. If only we were more interested in helping each other than in bringing another down or putting them down. If only we could all more closely relate to Jesus\' work and help to finish it.
Jesus could already have come and we might already be gone from this world.
Jax
P.S. I must apologize to all who are upset that the slashes keep being added to my posts. I only have that problem here on this forum and don\'t know how to stop it. My computer and server work just fine other place online. I don\'t think it\'s funny myself.
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If only the good news spread as fast as the gossip and bad news. If only we were more interested in helping each other than in bringing another down or putting them down. If only we could all more closely relate to Jesus\' work and help to finish it.
Jesus could already have come and we might already be gone from this world.
This sounds a lot like my mom when I was young. When I did not want to eat the crust on my toast. I was always reminded of the starving children. I could never quite figure out if I ate the crust how it would help any other child.
Suddenly from one post to the next " all should all work closely together" Working closely to relate to the work of Jesus .
Wonder what brought all this on.
For me it is the little lies, not the big whoppers. It is a guarantee if you tell the little ones so easily the whoppers will follow.
I couldn't care less what the letter?? from the IRS says. It is the build up and then OOPS, we can't say anything the IRS says. If that is the case then when all the "are you ready for the big one" and it takes time,yada,yada was simply putting off until it no longer seemed important. They would have already had the marching orders issued from the IRS if such exists. I would assume that there is a resolution, but not quite as reported.
You had quite a bit to say concerning ebay and Tammy Shelton. When it became apparent that you probably were wrong, it switches to "Ah, what does it matter" we should all work closely together
What matters is the "no I don't have an ebay store AND NEVER HAVE". If 812 worden was hers and Tammy's Variety
would naturally be hers, SHE HAS LIED,period.
Now how do you convince someone that "Well, she might have been mistaken" and she really did have one" that she will tell the truth on anything else. Sounds like Hilary Clinton "when she was under "enemy fire" Just a little slip of the tongue.
Last year I was having a chat with someone on another forum. He mentioned he had a small business,I asked him what kind. He mentioned ebay. I was interested as I was curious what he sold and would rather buy from those I know if possible. Surprisingly he told me forgot what he called his ebay business as he did not use at that particular time of year. Having sold on ebay for a number of years it piqued my curiosity
and went searching based on something he had said on another forum. Found the man was lying, he was at the time of our conversation actively selling. Obviouslly he wanted his identity secret. Why not just say so instead of lie.
Since then I have caught some other rather dubious statements.
Tell me, why I should waste my tiime reading thru his posts and try to distinguish the lies I am sure much of what he says is the truth, but I really don't care.
Some of us that do not blindly follow DS and think he is annointed by God is because of the little lies. Not the ones we suspect but the ones we know to be a lie.
As DS statement to Stan Jensen during this "interview"
No, we have suffered no loss of donations, go to next forum is DS words that indeed they have and that is part of the reason for the lawsuit.
Both cannot be true.
Everybody work together now sounds great. Maybe DS has some bridges to fix before some are comfortable doing that. Perhaps starting with Mabel Dunabr
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When I see either side in a disput gently shading the true, or suddenly the Rodney King, "Can't we all get along now" routine I don't wate my time sifting thru the debris trying to get to the truth.
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Bonnie, the law suit was filed in about April, 2007. What was the date of the DS interview with Stan Jensen?
Quote from Bonnie:
As DS statement to Stan Jensen during this "interview"
No, we have suffered no loss of donations, go to next forum is DS words that indeed they have and that is part of the reason for the lawsuit.
Both cannot be true.
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Bonnie, the law suit was filed in about April, 2007. What was the date of the DS interview with Stan Jensen?
This is the exact phrasing.
losses at 3ABN??????? Fact or Fiction
Stan Jensen
Carpe Diem!!!
Registered: 09/15/06
Posts: 3305
Loc: 49.05° Lat- 122.3° Long One self proclaimed reporter has publicly stated that he was told 'rumor' that 3ABN had a huge operating 7 digit deficit in the neighborhood of 3,000,000 for the first few months in 2007. Rumors like this are too often believed to be facts.
I think that is about 1/2 of the operating budget for the same period, which would mean that no planned income came in, other than committed support.
What kind of response to you have for that?
Top Notify Email Post
#122445 - 04/23/07 12:37 PM Re: Significant losses at 3ABN??????? Fact or Fiction [Re: Stan Jensen]
Danny Shelton
Registered: 11/21/04
Posts: 63
Loc: Illinois, USA This is more tabloid stuff to get attention from this same person who claims to be a reporter.
_________________________
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Talked to a friend of a friend at potluck 2 Sabbath's ago. Her parents are stanch supporters of 3ABN and DS and had heard about the airplane issue. (this was some time ago) DS was at their church one weekend and her father said - I'll just go ask him if it is true about owning a plane. Marched right up and asked. DS said No, we don't own a plane. Her father came back and said - see, it was just untruths on that internet. Not a big lie by DS but an omission of the truth. I'm with Bonnie - small lies tell a lot about a person.
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They owned a plane and then leased a plane and then sold the plane they had owned.
Do you know about when DS said that? Was it before or after they sold the plane they owned?
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Don't know when it was. I had understood that they had leased both planes. Either way it would be an untruth. He knew what was being asked.