Advent Talk
Issues & Concerns Category => 3ABN => Topic started by: Sam on August 03, 2008, 04:06:39 PM
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I was sent this email by someone who had direct contact with Hartland. Feels like Dejuvu to me.
I received this from Hartland on 5/28/2007.
Dear********
Yes, Gailon Joy was indirectly involved (or at least he tried to get himself involved). He was never a member of the staff, nor was he a member of any of its organizational bodies, so he only wrote what he heard by word of mouth. Most of what he wrote at that time was sheer misrepresentations of fact. In my opinion, he tried to spin anything and everything he heard in its worst possible construction. He has no compunction about bearing false witness. He totally discredited himself to the vast majority of the staff at Hartland. His spin was so outlandish that it wasn’t credible to anyone that knew the truth. He was apparently being fed information though, from at least one disgruntled insider at Hartland, but never once did he bother to check with both sides on any story. He only consulted (obviously) with the one that he chose to represent (or rather with the one he used to make his misrepresentations). Most of our staff at the time got the very clear impression that he was not trying to be fair in his assessment, but rather biased – and in the extreme. So when we began reading what he wrote about 3ABN, we simply sent the emails to the dustbin. There may be elements of truth in what he has written about 3ABN (large or small), but I don’t recommend that you trust his spin. Be sure you can verify what he says from other sources.
We had the feeling that he enjoyed the work of trying to cut down institutions attempting to do God’s work and attempting to discredit their leaders. He seems to have a lot of time to waste on this self-appointed work. He also apparently claims that he was responsible for the dismissal of one of the presidents of AUC (which may have been needed), but I doubt that he was the one who accomplished it or that bears the responsibility for it.
Anyway, for what it is worth, that is my take on the situation.
God bless and keep you,
Sincerely,
*********************
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In this case we did get statements from insiders who were not disgruntled, including Danny Shelton, John Lomacang, Mollie Steenson, Walt Thompson, Hal Steenson, courthouse records, and other sources.
If your email above is accurate regarding the sources from Hartland, then there isn't much comparison.
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More than that, Sam, are you using this email as a means to justify Danny's cover up of the child molestation allegations against Tommy, his failure to disclose all his assets and income on his financial affidavit, his unbiblical divorce, and the like? Do you think this email allegedly from Hartland justifies Shelley Quinn's trashing of Alyssa Moore's confidential testimony regarding Danny Shelton's alleged sexual assault against her?
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I have had a few problems with Gailon when he appeared to be enjoying the fight and relished it.
However,your post is proof of what??
Who wrote it??
How credible is the person writing it??
How would one know this was a legitimate e-mail and not one concocted by you??
Who was the disgruntled staff member of Heartland?
Were they perhaps disgruntled for a good reason??
I know some on the outer edges of this mess may have a good reason for hiding their identity.When those that so staunchly and almost fanatically defend DS hide their identity it loses a lot of credibility.
Just who are you Sam?? I know from the sounds of your posts you have more than a passing acquaintance with the DS mess. I personally would be insulted by so called friends or supporters that defend anonymously. If a friend is to afraid to own up to his identity while tearing others down,your statements, assurances and now this e-mail lack any credibility as far as I am concerned.
Now maybe the time has come for you to put up or shutup. You either stop asking others for proof,or lay your proof out there. Maybe a good place to start is this letter from a year ago that you are just sharing with us now.
Without the proof you demand in every post, this e-mail is nothing but rumormongering. Now we know how much those that defend DS abhor that word, don't we.
Wonder how much lower this whole sickening mess can go before it finds it's own level
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You know Sam, I had more than casual contact with people of your ilk during my son's ordeal. I had far less respect for those than I did the ones that condemned my son and our family.
These staunch defenders of truth were so glad that someone finally had the courage to stand up and say enough.
Wasn't it just terrible what happened to your son and his beautiful family? You know, I have knowledge of some things that could help you, but you can't use my name. This isn't the first time this has happened with this man. No one can know where you got the information. We sure hope you are successful in laying the blame where it belongs. This kind of behaviour needs to be stopped. It can't be hidden any longer.
We heard the above over and over. To me, this type of help and support is just plain hogwash and not worth the time it took to say it. It took far more away from us than helped. If you lack the guts to stand behind what you defend, perhaps what you are defending isn't worth it
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Just a little add on. The ones with the most to lose if we fell on our face were the ones that defended and stood by us for everyone to see. The others that defended in secret were not worth the time it would take to call them friends
edited to correct aa sentence
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Bonnie, I understand your opinion. I don't personally totally agree with it because I think your position is a little extreme, but you certainly have the right to feel the way you do.
Sometimes it isn't due to cowardice or even a lack of belief in the veracity of a cause that drives some towards anonymity. Sometimes there are valid or extenuating reasons.
My husband would only let me participate if I remained anonymous because he was concerned about repercussions against me. When he got comfortable enough with the situation, he allowed me to step out of the shadows.
While the affirmations by those not willing to put their IDs where their sympathies were were not helpful to your seeking a remedy, and while I'm sure you were experiencing some feelings of frustration and, perhaps, even desperation for a solution, at least they were expressing a level of solidarity with you. I'm sorry that you found it without any value.
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I have had a few problems with Gailon when he appeared to be enjoying the fight and relished it.
However,your post is proof of what??
Who wrote it??
How credible is the person writing it??
How would one know this was a legitimate e-mail and not one concocted by you??
Who was the disgruntled staff member of Heartland?
Were they perhaps disgruntled for a good reason??
I know some on the outer edges of this mess may have a good reason for hiding their identity.When those that so staunchly and almost fanatically defend DS hide their identity it loses a lot of credibility.
Just who are you Sam?? I know from the sounds of your posts you have more than a passing acquaintance with the DS mess. I personally would be insulted by so called friends or supporters that defend anonymously. If a friend is to afraid to own up to his identity while tearing others down,your statements, assurances and now this e-mail lack any credibility as far as I am concerned.
Now maybe the time has come for you to put up or shutup. You either stop asking others for proof,or lay your proof out there. Maybe a good place to start is this letter from a year ago that you are just sharing with us now.
Without the proof you demand in every post, this e-mail is nothing but rumormongering. Now we know how much those that defend DS abhor that word, don't we.
Wonder how much lower this whole sickening mess can go before it finds it's own level
Sam, we are all waiting for you to answer Bonnie's questions. Bonnie, you hit the hammer directly on the nail concerning the validity of Sam's "email from Heartland".
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Bonnie, I understand your opinion. I don't personally totally agree with it because I think your position is a little extreme, but you certainly have the right to feel the way you do.
Sometimes it isn't due to cowardice or even a lack of belief in the veracity of a cause that drives some towards anonymity. Sometimes there are valid or extenuating reasons.
You are right that there are differing circumstances for different people.
But the same rule,demand and logic should apply. Lacking personal intimate knowledge you are left with a opinion you have formed. Not everyone that has an opinion should be required in something like this to broadcast their name. That is not what I was referring to.
If, as an example,I quite routinely on this forum, call you a liar, deluded ,whatever,and demand proof for every word you say,then I better be prepared to do same. Do not tell me I am lying because an anonymous person said so. This is basically just what happened with Sam's e-mail. Now I believe in order for him to have credibility he needs to put his money where his mouth is. Do not give me anonymous unless you are ready to let me do same
My husband would only let me participate if I remained anonymous because he was concerned about repercussions against me. When he got comfortable enough with the situation, he allowed me to step out of the shadows.
That is not what I am referring to. Sam,Ian,Anyman,one or three people write as if they have intimate,personal, first hand knowledge. Using that so called first hand anonymous knowledge and have done their best to cast doubt on Bob Pickle and Gailon Joy.
I don't care which side does it, put your money where your mouth is or keep the mouth shut. Ian,anyman,and Sam should face the same requirements they demand of others. So far it seems to be lacking. This e-mail is more than a little suspect quite frankly. Look at the writing style and some of the phrasing. I will tell you beyond a doubt I thought at first I was reading a post by Sam. Not one sent to him. Not every single person in all cases should be suspect because of their anonymity . However there is little excuse for being afraid to put your name to a defense of someone you believe to be Innocent. For those that lack personal, first hand knowledge is a little different than those that claim "TO KNOW' and any that disagrees with them is either delusional or dishonest.
They do not have to take responsibility for one single word they say. And can keep saying it.
While the affirmations by those not willing to put their IDs where their sympathies were were not helpful to your seeking a remedy, and while I'm sure you were experiencing some feelings of frustration and, perhaps, even desperation for a solution, at least they were expressing a level of solidarity with you. I'm sorry that you found it without any value.
Frustration was not in my vocabulary. Livid is a better description. For anyone, especially those that claim to be christian to hide facts and refuse to help in a manner that would have done some good was not what I considered solidarity. It was pretty much our family fighting on our own. There were those few that had the most to lose that stepped up to the plate. Yes we were desperate because of the children. There is no way on this earth I could have lived with myself if I refused to help someone elses innocent children.
Personally I don't have the facts outside of a few instances that formed my opinion. But I do know I put little faith in anyone failing to do what they demand of others. I have not seen evidence of proof, denials and putdowns are not proof or evidence that what they in fact are saying is true. They in turn say the same of Pickle and Joy
IMO, Sam has absolutely no business posting that without identification. If anonymous e-mails are going to be posted as proof of something ,then don't demand different from others.
What Sam did was underhanded and quite dishonest. I have my differences with Gailon,but I still expect the rules to be a bit more equal. I have no reason to believe Sam anymore than I have reason to believe Gailon.
The bottom line is for me,the same rule should apply.
This whole thing is like playing board games with my oldest brother. As soon as I came close to undersatnding the rules and winning, he changed the rules on me.
Without proof of the origin of the e-mail what he posted was rubbish or rumormongering by Sam. That great little word that gets tossed around so freely.
Sam need to back up that e-mail with a name,otherwise he should shut the mouth over it
edited to correct sentence
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Sam, we are all waiting for you to answer Bonnie's questions. Bonnie, you hit the hammer directly on the nail concerning the validity of Sam's "email from Heartland".
ASI and 3ABN have been great friends, and some of the major players at ASI have been as well.
However, ASI and Hartland have not been the best of friends, I believe over the tithe issue. How has 3ABN felt about Hartland? Has there been a meeting of the minds over Gailon?
But regarding the tithe issue, since Danny has claimed under penalty of law to have given tithe to 3ABN, how does that affect his standing with ASI and the major players there? Or has he stopped that practice and is now only returning tithe to the Seventh-day Adventist Church? Or has he been dealt with differently than Hartland for some reason?
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Grandma Nettie,
This can't go both ways. You offer up proof to what you are posting or quit demanding it from others.
That e-mail is suspect .Even if true, Sam needed to provide the proof he so freely requires from others
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Sam, are you speaking of the Hartland Institute that the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists has disavowed and considers to be an offshoot that should not be trusted by Adventist Christians, and has even published warning about? Are you making a comparison that would relate 3ABN and Hartland? That might actually be a very pertinent and relevant comparison in some ways.
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I have had a few problems with Gailon when he appeared to be enjoying the fight and relished it.
However,your post is proof of what??
Who wrote it??
How credible is the person writing it??
How would one know this was a legitimate e-mail and not one concocted by you??
Who was the disgruntled staff member of Heartland?
Were they perhaps disgruntled for a good reason??
I know some on the outer edges of this mess may have a good reason for hiding their identity.When those that so staunchly and almost fanatically defend DS hide their identity it loses a lot of credibility.
Just who are you Sam?? I know from the sounds of your posts you have more than a passing acquaintance with the DS mess. I personally would be insulted by so called friends or supporters that defend anonymously. If a friend is to afraid to own up to his identity while tearing others down,your statements, assurances and now this e-mail lack any credibility as far as I am concerned.
Now maybe the time has come for you to put up or shutup. You either stop asking others for proof,or lay your proof out there. Maybe a good place to start is this letter from a year ago that you are just sharing with us now.
Without the proof you demand in every post, this e-mail is nothing but rumormongering. Now we know how much those that defend DS abhor that word, don't we.
Wonder how much lower this whole sickening mess can go before it finds it's own level
Sam, we are all waiting for you to answer Bonnie's questions. Bonnie, you hit the hammer directly on the nail concerning the validity of Sam's "email from Heartland".
Lay ee odl lay ee odl-oo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CaD9Ozdthg8&feature=related)
nfo@hartland.edu
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My husband would only let me participate if I remained anonymous because he was concerned about repercussions against me. When he got comfortable enough with the situation, he allowed me to step out of the shadows.
That is not what I am referring to. Sam,Ian,Anyman,one or three people write as if they have intimate,personal, first hand knowledge. Using that so called first hand anonymous knowledge and have done their best to cast doubt on Bob Pickle and Gailon Joy.
I don't care which side does it, put your money where your mouth is or keep the mouth shut. Ian,anyman,and Sam should face the same requirements they demand of others. So far it seems to be lacking. This e-mail is more than a little suspect quite frankly. Look at the writing style and some of the phrasing. I will tell you beyond a doubt I thought at first I was reading a post by Sam. Not one sent to him. Not every single person in all cases should be suspect because of their anonymity . However there is little excuse for being afraid to put your name to a defense of someone you believe to be Innocent. For those that lack personal, first hand knowledge is a little different than those that claim "TO KNOW' and any that disagrees with them is either delusional or dishonest.
They do not have to take responsibility for one single word they say. And can keep saying it.
:dunno:
go here:
http://www.3abntalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=37&p=116#p116
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I have had a few problems with Gailon when he appeared to be enjoying the fight and relished it.
However,your post is proof of what??
Who wrote it??
How credible is the person writing it??
How would one know this was a legitimate e-mail and not one concocted by you??
Who was the disgruntled staff member of Heartland?
Were they perhaps disgruntled for a good reason??
I know some on the outer edges of this mess may have a good reason for hiding their identity.When those that so staunchly and almost fanatically defend DS hide their identity it loses a lot of credibility.
Just who are you Sam?? I know from the sounds of your posts you have more than a passing acquaintance with the DS mess. I personally would be insulted by so called friends or supporters that defend anonymously. If a friend is to afraid to own up to his identity while tearing others down,your statements, assurances and now this e-mail lack any credibility as far as I am concerned.
Now maybe the time has come for you to put up or shutup. You either stop asking others for proof,or lay your proof out there. Maybe a good place to start is this letter from a year ago that you are just sharing with us now.
Without the proof you demand in every post, this e-mail is nothing but rumormongering. Now we know how much those that defend DS abhor that word, don't we.
Wonder how much lower this whole sickening mess can go before it finds it's own level
I do not demand proof in every post...maybe you are confusing me someone else???? I state facts that counteract what the PickleJoy team are doing. I don't demand proof of anything from them as I know they don't have it. "real", "verafiable" proof that is.
As for your demands...here is the link...I left out the names but over there, I see they have been added. That's good. Now that you see it is genuine, we can move on.
http://www.3abntalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=37&p=116#p116
BTW I have never "made up" or edited someone else's email so really shouldn't have been accused of it. That position goes to Bob.
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do not demand proof in every post...maybe you are confusing me someone else???? I state facts that counteract what the PickleJoy team are doing. I don't demand proof of anything from them as I know they don't have it. "real", "verafiable" proof that is.
And you really need to learn to read.. As for facts I have seen what you posted and declared to be the real facts,but you have proven zip, nada. I have not seen the proof. It doesn't matter what anyone says,show the proof.
Now one of you should be able to. While personally I believe there has been a resolution from the IRS, you have not even come close to proving it. Because you state something and declare it a fact doesn't make it so.
As for your demands...here is the link...I left out the names but over there, I see they have been added. That's good. Now that you see it is genuine, we can move onhttp://www.3abntalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=37&p=116#p116
BTW I have never "made up" or edited someone else's email so really shouldn't have been accused of it. That position goes to Bob.
You are doing it again. I did not accuse you of making up the e-mail I speculated. Shame on you for taking that and running with it again.
But even at that, you saying you have never done so, is hardly proof
I put very little faith in anything you say. Because I have seen you over and over doing what you so piously complain about. For someone to be as close as you obviouly are to 3ABN and remain anonymous in your total support of DS is not very convincing. I simply do not believe or give credibility to what you say.
I am sure at times you are correct or firmly believe you are but it simply is not worth my time or interest to sort thru what you say and try to determine if this time it really is fact.
You already had to make more of than take my words as said.
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Sam, are you speaking of the Hartland Institute that the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists has disavowed and considers to be an offshoot that should not be trusted by Adventist Christians, and has even published warning about? Are you making a comparison that would relate 3ABN and Hartland? That might actually be a very pertinent and relevant comparison in some ways.
It would be nice to find out if someone - and who - has helped that institution gain the credibility that was lacking in the past.
I was once invited to attend a seminar with the president of Hartland. As I was listening to him I was hoping someone would have the courage to be truthful. Then we received the warnings from the General Conference. Although they were approving the work of most Independent Ministries at that time, Hartland was rejected as a Supporting Ministry. The pastors in our area were provided with documentation why the General Conference could not accept Harland.
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Grandma Nettie,
This can't go both ways. You offer up proof to what you are posting or quit demanding it from others.
That e-mail is suspect .Even if true, Sam needed to provide the proof he so freely requires from others
Bonnie,
Not sure I understand why you state this as you have.
As far as the email that Sam posted goes, if you have followed this internet saga for long you certainly know that most emails that Bob and Gailon have provided, whether personally posted or posted by those they have passed them to for posting, and even many of those they have given to the courts as evidence, have the names edited out.
As far as demanding proof from others, when one of the members here makes allegations against someone, isn't it logical to want to see the proof behind those allegations? To accept an allegation against someone without more than the word or opinion of another is rather irresponsible, isn't it? It's called "hearsay" without any documentation or verification.
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I have had a few problems with Gailon when he appeared to be enjoying the fight and relished it.
However,your post is proof of what??
Who wrote it??
How credible is the person writing it??
How would one know this was a legitimate e-mail and not one concocted by you??
Who was the disgruntled staff member of Heartland?
Were they perhaps disgruntled for a good reason??
I know some on the outer edges of this mess may have a good reason for hiding their identity. When those that so staunchly and almost fanatically defend DS hide their identity it loses a lot of credibility.
Just who are you Sam?? I know from the sounds of your posts you have more than a passing acquaintance with the DS mess. I personally would be insulted by so called friends or supporters that defend anonymously. If a friend is to afraid to own up to his identity while tearing others down,your statements, assurances and now this e-mail lack any credibility as far as I am concerned.
Now maybe the time has come for you to put up or shutup. You either stop asking others for proof,or lay your proof out there. Maybe a good place to start is this letter from a year ago that you are just sharing with us now.
Without the proof you demand in every post, this e-mail is nothing but rumormongering. Now we know how much those that defend DS abhor that word, don't we.
Wonder how much lower this whole sickening mess can go before it finds it's own level
Sam, we are all waiting for you to answer Bonnie's questions. Bonnie, you hit the hammer directly on the nail concerning the validity of Sam's "email from Heartland".
Sister,
Interesting sentiment. Does this throw the question of validity onto all those who have supported their positions with emails posted without identification? Those emails could have been faked, too. Bob and Gailon must have cringed when they read this!
Now, let's change one letter in a statement Bonnie made and see if the sentiment applies equally to the other side:
I know some on the outer edges of this mess may have a good reason for hiding their identity. When those that so staunchly and almost fanatically defend LS hide their identity it loses a lot of credibility.
Hammer still directly on target?
Edited to make it more clear who response was directed at...
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[quote ,
This can't go both ways. You offer up proof to what you are posting or quit demanding it from others.
That e-mail is suspect .Even if true, Sam needed to provide the proof he so freely requires from others
[/quote]
Bonnie,
Not sure I understand why you state this as you have.
As far as the email that Sam posted goes, if you have followed this internet saga for long you certainly know that most emails that Bob and Gailon have provided, whether personally posted or posted by those they have passed them to for posting, and even many of those they have given to the courts as evidence, have the names edited out.
I understand that. I have a problem when anyone comes up with this mysterious "party" that said he knew and so on and on and on.
If Sam had wanted to ,apparently he could have posted with name intact, without this constant drama from so many.
You know something to be fact and are interested enough and personally involved to join in and condemn, then you should be confident right out of the gate to put it out there and stand behind with your name.
All of this "Gotcha" mentality is rubbish to keep playing. Just like this ridiculous IRS routine. Rather than being grateful it is resolved and issuing a simple professional statement it is making a cliff hanger out of it to get the most mileage possible. By the time the hype is over no one really remembers or cares that there was to be this big announcement, of complete letter of absolution. Will settle for the mundane and ordinary in the end . The objective has been realized.
The any day now,things like this take time, the IRS issued an apology,please be patient it is coming is milking this whole thing for all it is worth.
I think even if it had gone against DS, the milking would have gone on. This picture of this beleaguered martyr struggling valiantly on to preach the gospel under attack from so many doing the devils work would have been used.
Just as it has been done with the adultery issue. The way DS has handled that is a complete repudiation of what he stands for publically.
He first uses spiritual adultery which was utter nonesense, then we switch to physical adultery . After that has spread quite nicely,OOP'S we cannot give the proof unless LS signs an agreement not to sue. But again, if we absolutely have to we will make public her sin.
After it has already been made public and the dirty work has been done. It will never be settled at this point.
The stigma of adultery will follow LS and stick for many.
Mission accommplished and DS hand's are just as clean as Pilate's.
one of the members here makes allegations against someone, isn't it logical to want to see the proof behind those allegations?
To accept an allegation against someone without more than the word or opinion of another is rather irresponsible, isn't it? It's called "hearsay" without any documentation or verification.
Of course it is logical. But the logic works both ways. If I demand proof from you for what you say as an accusation,I need to be willing to do same.
Otherwise I am doing what I accuse others of doing
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Now, let's change one letter in a statement Bonnie made and see if the sentiment applies equally to the other side:
I know some on the outer edges of this mess may have a good reason for hiding their identity. When those that so staunchly and almost fanatically defend LS hide their identity it loses a lot of credibility.
Hammer still directly on target?
Let's try this once more.
What I said applies to both sides. I realize there are reasons for some to hide their identity. I don't care what the reason,Gailon,Joy and Fran's identity is right out there. You know who you are interacting with. I do not see that always on the other side. I see those very strident in their defense of DS,but I don't know who, haven't a clue if they come 3 for 1 price or not. Their dogmatic approach is not very convincing to me personally.
If you are as in a interested by stander it is probably not important what or who you are. When you reach the level of "I KNOW" then maybe it is time to stand up and put a name to the "I KNOW"
Frankly, anything Ian,anyman,sam have to say I take with a grain of salt. They want to be front and center in the defense of DS so badly yet hide
Doesn't mean I agree with or believe everything that is posted with a known name. It does mean at least I know whom I am dealing with instead of interacting with those that could be, Ian,Sam,anyman,DS, all rolled into one
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Interesting sentiment. Does this throw the question of validity onto all those who have supported their positions with emails posted without identification?
Puts it right in the same wastebasket. Support without identification might be encouraging to some. It is absolutely worthless in the scheme of things as proof of anything. We battled this for almost 6 years
Those emails could have been faked, too. Bob and Gailon must have cringed when they read this!
I am sure they could have been. If the shoe fits let them cringe
Now, let's change one letter in a statement Bonnie made and see if the sentiment applies equally to the other side:
I know some on the outer edges of this mess may have a good reason for hiding their identity. When those that so staunchly and almost fanatically defend LS hide their identity it loses a lot of credibility.
Hammer still directly on target?
Yes, hammer still on target. If someone 's support is going to have any real validity it is not going to be anonymous support. Yet the fact remains those defending someone they know is innocent, cannot be sued it they happen to be wrong has much less to lose than those accusing may face.
If you are defending someone annointed by God and you can only do so anonymously I would not want that kind of defense. It is offensive IMO and something that doesn't do anyone any good except the opponent
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Bonnie, I have modified my earlier response to indicate that I was replying to Sister's response to your post.
BTW, most take the Sister missives as gospel without knowing who her sources are, without any documentation of the allegations she has penned and without knowing who she actually is. Is it wisdom to accept such purely by faith?
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Now, let's change one letter in a statement Bonnie made and see if the sentiment applies equally to the other side:
I know some on the outer edges of this mess may have a good reason for hiding their identity. When those that so staunchly and almost fanatically defend LS hide their identity it loses a lot of credibility.
Hammer still directly on target?
Let's try this once more.
What I said applies to both sides. I realize there are reasons for some to hide their identity. I don't care what the reason,Gailon,Joy and Fran's identity is right out there. You know who you are interacting with. I do not see that always on the other side. I see those very strident in their defense of DS,but I don't know who, haven't a clue if they come 3 for 1 price or not. Their dogmatic approach is not very convincing to me personally.
If you are as in a interested by stander it is probably not important what or who you are. When you reach the level of "I KNOW" then maybe it is time to stand up and put a name to the "I KNOW"
Frankly, anything Ian,anyman,sam have to say I take with a grain of salt. They want to be front and center in the defense of DS so badly yet hide
Doesn't mean I agree with or believe everything that is posted with a known name. It does mean at least I know whom I am dealing with instead of interacting with those that could be, Ian,Sam,anyman,DS, all rolled into one
Bonnie,
Some of what you say I agree with. What I do see though is contrary to your claims of being even handed, you are as one sided as anyone. You are basically saying that if we don't present our real names we don't carry validity. Fine. But I have never seen you address that directly to Sister who has played a huge part in defamation, or Snoopy, or Artiste or SSOM or Watchbird.....all either against 3abn and/or friends and supporters of Linda.
As Grandma pointed out you haven't made an issue out of a huge amount of emails submitted by the other side with names deleted and much of the wording edited. You only bring it up to me and my one paltry little email. FYI, I wasn't sure if the party that sent it to me wanted the names left in so deciding to err on the side of caution and confidentiality I deleted them. I later found out it was fine to leave them in. Had nothing whatsoever to do with playing games.
Speaking of, your take on the IRS announcements couldn't be any more off base as far as "milking" and "games" go. I thought I had explained this but will try again to make you understand the events as they happened.
The attorney that handled the IRS case (not Duffy) called 3abn & Duffy and said he had just been contacted by the IRS with the question "did Danny and 3abn want their documents back or destroyed"? The attorney ask then if the investigation was over? The agent said he could not say "officially" but the 3abn attorney could contact the AG's office for official word. It was a day or two later before the Attorney got in touch with the AG's office. He was told from someone in that office that yes, officially it was over with no fines, penalities, etc and (for reasons I won't go into ) it had been a mistake to start the investigation in the first place. Hence, the apology of sorry your organization had to deal with this.
Once 3abn received this news, they ask if it could be made public as was only fair as the investigation was made public thanks to certain people. Some of those that new about it told it here on the internet. That should have been the end of it. But no, Bonnie you like the other's here could not accept that and leave it alone. So what you call milking the situation was in reality you all not believing what we the defenders had told you. Why should you have believed it? Because it would be of a too serious nature to say something untrue publically where the IRS is concerned. It could have gotten 3abn, Danny and other people in a lot of trouble so why would the defenders put it out there if it wasn't so?
Because 3abn wanted to be able to prove to the diehards that it was over, days later they contacted the attorney's and ask for a letter of clearance. The attorney said they normally do not do that but he would try. Over a period of a couple of weeks he tried talking to the AG but never made contact.
Because the attorney himself had spoken previously with the AG's office and knew it was over he decided along with Duffy to write a confirmation letter since he had not been able to contact the AG with 3abn's request for a letter.
So Bonnie, games? No. Milking? No. Just battling with the redtape and hands of time where the government is concerned.
Never did anyone say there would be a letter of apology. That was verbal in a phone conversation. The only fault I might accept for the 3abn defenders is having faith that the attorney's would be able to contact the AG and get an Official letter from the IRS. When we said there would be a letter we were trusting in the government to do what was right but it didn't work that way. Our fault since the attorney said to begin with that the IRS doesn't work that way and we should have listened. That is NO reflection on DS or 3abn as no one has ever told me to come on the internet and write anything. I think the rest of the defenders can say the same. I use my own judgement and give my own opinion based on facts known to me.
Had people used their heads and common sense when we announced 3abn was cleared ,all of this "drama" as you call it would have never taken place. Your side is the reason it was drawn out.
I also want to address a post you made fairly recently where you said that your opinion of Danny was from Danny and his actions not from what anyone else has said.
Do you know Danny personally? Have you had interaction with him or the "higher ups" at 3abn? If you answer no to these questions then the only opinion you could have of DS is over what you have read on the internet. The accusations, edited emails, and the spins put on everything that is said and done.
Since someone at 3abntalk put the link to the only letters and program that concerned Linda, no one can possibly continue the lie that 3abn and DS publically trashed her. Go look at the video. REad the letters. Then come back and say 3abn/DS trashed Linda on the air or anywhere else.
I believe you said you weren't a 3abn viewer so all of your opinions of Danny have come from somewhere else. As much as you want to believe that you are more reasonable than other's here (and sometimes you are) you still ended up as judge and jury where Danny is concerned and you came to your conclusions by faulty, tampered with information.
No Bonnie this is not a game to me...far from it. The whole mess that Linda, Gailon, Pickle has started sickens me. The fact that 3abn was forced to bring a lawsuit because of all of their defamation and lies sickens me. The wound to the ministry sickens me. I am here only to defend what I know to be right. To let the lurkers see that all isn't painted as Pickle and Joy want people to believe. Luckily they have been painting their own selves into a corner where their shennanigans are concerned, which makes less work for me. But, as long as I feel I have to be here, I will fight fire with fire. The difference being, my fire is truth.
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Is there a possibility that some posters know the identity of other posters, and because they know the sources they know it is the truth?
To me this seems to apply to members on both sides of the discussion.So your question, GrandmaNettie, seems to apply to both sides.
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Bonnie, I have modified my earlier response to indicate that I was replying to Sister's response to your post.
BTW, most take the Sister missives as gospel without knowing who her sources are, without any documentation of the allegations she has penned and without knowing who she actually is. Is it wisdom to accept such purely by faith?
It is getting tiresome to ask people to quit putting words in my mouth. I was unaware of what went on at BSAD,I did not and do not know who sister is. At this point I could not repeat anything she has put "in her missives" as my interaction with her has been on a completely different playing field. The principal players in this on the defendent side is very clear. Those defending DS are not nearly as clear as to their identity. None of you could factually say what I have taken on faith and what I have not
edited to add last sentence
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Sam;
The whole mess that Linda, Gailon, Pickle has started sickens me. The fact that 3abn was forced to bring a lawsuit because of all of their defamation and lies sickens me. The wound to the ministry sickens me.
Let's regroup here. Danny started this when he divorced Linda for Spiritual Adultery! Danny started the lawsuit! Bob & Gailon are defending themselves! They did not even come onto the scene until years after the divorce. Go back to the beginning and then go forward. We are all here because of Danny Shelton. 3ABN was never forced to file charges! They chose to file the lawsuite! Their choice; not Bob and Gailon's' choice!
Johann;
When I posted about trusting pastors and people, I did not mention how much I trust you. You know that to be true. For years, I spoke to no one that you did not introduce to me. I am so glad I did/do that. Thanks for being there for me.
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Bonnie, I have modified my earlier response to indicate that I was replying to Sister's response to your post.
BTW, most take the Sister missives as gospel without knowing who her sources are, without any documentation of the allegations she has penned and without knowing who she actually is. Is it wisdom to accept such purely by faith?
It is getting tiresome to ask people to quit putting words in my mouth. I was unaware of what went on at BSAD,I did not and do not know who sister is. At this point I could not repeat anything she has put "in her missives" as my interaction with her has been on a completely different playing field. The principal players in this on the defendent side is very clear. Those defending DS are not nearly as clear as to their identity. None of you could factually say what I have taken on faith and what I have not
edited to add last sentence
I did not ask you if you took what sister has written on faith. I asked you if it is wisdom for the "most" who do to accept it by faith.
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You haven't a clue. I have repeatedly said that DS, his position and conduct requires the greater responsibility. DS has the world stage at his disposal,LS does not. Like it our not, if someone cannot conduct him/herself with integrity and ethics then leave it to ones that can.
The principal players in this, the three that have the most to lose,have made their identity known, for whatever reason. Those defending a person and feeling they are innocent has nothing to lose except a perceived lapse of judgement. But even so,I would not expect all to come forward with their given names.I do expect those that post so stridently in favor of DS to do so under their own name
As Grandma pointed out you haven't made an issue out of a huge amount of emails submitted by the other side with names deleted and much of the wording edited. You only bring it up to me and my one paltry little email. FYI, I wasn't sure if the party that sent it to me wanted the names left in so deciding to err on the side of caution and confidentiality I deleted them. I later found out it was fine to leave them in. Had nothing whatsoever to do with playing games.
First I have not seen and read all the "huge amount" of e-mails submitted by the other side.
Personally I do believe you were playing games. The amount you have contributed here and the tone is not one that comes from casual observance. I believe you knew full well that it would not be taken as fact when the sender was anonymous. Just a little Gotcha
Speaking of, your take on the IRS announcements couldn't be any more off base as far as "milking" and "games" go. I thought I had explained this but will try again to make you understand the events as they happened.
The attorney that handled the IRS case (not Duffy) called 3abn & Duffy and said he had just been contacted by the IRS with the question "did Danny and 3abn want their documents back or destroyed"? The attorney ask then if the investigation was over? The agent said he could not say "officially" but the 3abn attorney could contact the AG's office for official word. It was a day or two later before the Attorney got in touch with the AG's office. He was told from someone in that office that yes, officially it was over with no fines, penalities, etc and (for reasons I won't go into ) it had been a mistake to start the investigation in the first place. Hence, the apology of sorry your organization had to deal with this.
Nothing you say has any ring of truth on this. Or you again are simply inserting again what you wanted to have been said. I could not care less about the behaviour of the IRS. I referred if you remember to the cliff hanging suspense that was so obviously crafted. I do not care what they said, it is the conduct of DS handling this in a professional manner. I really do not believe the apology bit and we should never have started this in the first place, especially coming from an anonymous person.
Once 3abn received this news, they ask if it could be made public as was only fair as the investigation was made public thanks to certain people. Some of those that new about it told it here on the internet. That should have been the end of it. But no, Bonnie you like the other's here could not accept that and leave it alone. So what you call milking the situation was in reality you all not believing what we the defenders had told you. Why should you have believed it? Because it would be of a too serious nature to say something untrue publically where the IRS is concerned. It could have gotten 3abn, Danny and other people in a lot of trouble so why would the defenders put it out there if it wasn't so?
I have said from the beginning that I believed there had been some kind of resolution.
Remember Jack, maybe a close relative of yours. Now there was one that didn't want it to die. I said nothing about it should not have been announced. Most would have issue a public statement and moved on. Not enough mileage in that tho
Because 3abn wanted to be able to prove to the diehards that it was over, days later they contacted the attorney's and ask for a letter of clearance. The attorney said they normally do not do that but he would try. Over a period of a couple of weeks he tried talking to the AG but never made contact.
Because the attorney himself had spoken previously with the AG's office and knew it was over he decided along with Duffy to write a confirmation letter since he had not been able to contact the AG with 3abn's request for a letter.
Said by an anonymous person. No accountibility, no way to determine if this took place,
So Bonnie, games? No. Milking? No. Just battling with the redtape and hands of time where the government is concerned.
Baloney.
Never did anyone say there would be a letter of apology. That was verbal in a phone conversation. The only fault I might accept for the 3abn defenders is having faith that the attorney's would be able to contact the AG and get an Official letter from the IRS. When we said there would be a letter we were trusting in the government to do what was right but it didn't work that way. Our fault since the attorney said to begin with that the IRS doesn't work that way and we should have listened. That is NO reflection on DS or 3abn as no one has ever told me to come on the internet and write anything. I think the rest of the defenders can say the same. I use my own judgement and give my own opinion based on facts known to me.
Not knowing who you are or what personal role you play in this, someone would believe this WHY??????
Had people used their heads and common sense when we announced 3abn was cleared ,all of this "drama" as you call it would have never taken place. Your side is the reason it was drawn out.
Don't believe that to be true. Ask Jack. Wouldn't it be fun to have a poll, just for the kicks and giggles
I also want to address a post you made fairly recently where you said that your opinion of Danny was from Danny and his actions not from what anyone else has said.
Do you know Danny personally? Have you had interaction with him or the "higher ups" at 3abn? If you answer no to these questions then the only opinion you could have of DS is over what you have read on the internet. The accusations, edited emails, and the spins put on everything that is said and done.
I don't know Oral Roberts personally either, I think he is a shameless huckster, which I believe he has proven. Very early on my opinion of DS began to form. Not from the spin but from what it was pretty clear was true.
Since someone at 3abntalk put the link to the only letters and program that concerned Linda, no one can possibly continue the lie that 3abn and DS publically trashed her. Go look at the video. REad the letters. Then come back and say 3abn/DS trashed Linda on the air or anywhere else.
Whose side was it that put up 3ABN talk again. All will know of course that 3ABN talke is objective and unbiased. Yup
I believe you said you weren't a 3abn viewer so all of your opinions of Danny have come from somewhere else. As much as you want to believe that you are more reasonable than other's here (and sometimes you are) you still ended up as judge and jury where Danny is concerned and you came to your conclusions by faulty, tampered with information.
I really don't care what you believe, how's that.
I am not his judge and jury. I can only take responsibility for my own opinions and statements. So please stop telling me what I want.
I did discover not to long ago that we actually got 3ABN on our cable. Have watched a few times and that has done nothing other than to convince me that DS seems very ego driven. When someone has as his favorite word I and has a list of miracles bestowed I because I am so very special ,3ABN becomes more about DS the annointed one than the gospel
No Bonnie this is not a game to me...far from it. The whole mess that Linda, Gailon, Pickle has started sickens me. The fact that 3abn was forced to bring a lawsuit because of all of their defamation and lies sickens me. The wound to the ministry sickens me. I am here only to defend what I know to be right. To let the lurkers see that all isn't painted as Pickle and Joy want people to believe. Luckily they have been painting their own selves into a corner where their shennanigans are concerned, which makes less work for me. But, as long as I feel I have to be here, I will fight fire with fire. The difference being, my fire is truth.
Oh, I think it is a very serious game, but a game non-the-less. On the lawsuit, may be DS should try what we were told to do,Leave it in God's Hands.
Whatever you say, whatever fire is in your truth you cannot be standing on very firm ground. I am not sure, but I don't think anyone is forcing you to be here.
You might be telling the truth 100%, but I am not real big on anonymous sources as their fire being truth. So I would have no idea.
Not involved enough to try to find out if what you say is true or not.
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Grandma Nettie,
Can someone like yourself,not directly involved or so it seems, explain what there is about Ian,anyman,Sam,Jack that should be believed among those without a dog in this fight.
I had never heard of Bob Pickle, Gailon Joy. I have known Fran for a long time around the forums. I never went thru her posts with a fine tooth comb to see if she could be believed. Mostly because she remained consistent in what she said she believed. I have not known her to lie.
Given that, can you tell me as one that has apparently not been deeply involved , Like myself, forming an opinion from watching and reading my choice would be to believe in the credibility of nameless,faceless posters.
On one side there are at least 4 people, counting Duane Clem that have pretty well stuck their neck out. Probably more but that is the names that come to mind.
Now can someone help me out with the other side. I can't recall the true names of any that are in the forefront of calling others liars, delusional and wrong.
Those that are anonymous could be telling the absolute truth,yet why would I choose to believe them.
DS already knows the identity of those that oppose him on this forum. So far the other side does not have that luxury.Why would I believe this was that important to them as to keep responding and trying to convince, when no one knows who is trying to do the convincing.
My folks had a few ideas they managed to pass on to my siblings and I. If something is so important to you that you are going to interject your opinions or state a fact, however unpopular,STAND FAST, NEVER WAVER. Sometimes gets us into trouble,but mostly works pretty well for my brothers and myself
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Bonnie, it must really be a bone of contention to you when someone leaves out the name of a person or is themselves using an anonymous name or server as you mention it quite often. While on the one hand you state that you can understand why some do, on the other hand it prevents you from choosing to accept anything they say as the truth. Maybe it is because the 3ABN defenders do not continually complain or talk about what they have personally gone through because of those who do know, or think they know, who some of the defenders are. Some of us and including friends we know, family members and pastors have received harassing phone calls from the members of the other side and some several times a day. Some phone calls actually have someone calling the receiver a vile name and hanging up. One actually asked for one of the defenders by a log in name and when asked where they got the phone number they said the phone book. The log in name has never been in any phone book and the person they were trying to call didn’t even have a phone number listed or unlisted. Some of us have had the other side come to our homes. Then there are those of us who get banned because family members have the same IP # so we choose a server that gives anonymity. Others are banned because they use the same server that gives anonymity so have to seek another.
None of us want our children, grandchildren, other family members, or friends to suffer in any way and to especially hear such vile talk. The calls come from men and women alike.
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Bonnie, it must really be a bone of contention to you when someone leaves out the name of a person or is themselves using an anonymous name or server as you mention it quite often.
The bone of contention comes in not where someone uses an anonymous name,but the anonymous party expects to accept anonymous defense as gospel. I have never said anything that I recall about anonymous server's.
Most here I think have anonymous names,it is how it is used. I have no more reason to believe you than you would me if I used an anonymous name. You may be telling the complete truth,or you may be telling a complete lie. As long as there is no accountibility for what you say, anything can be said. But it was not quite as general a statement as you now are saying. I believe that I said there were no identifiable key players as there is on the other side,or none that I can remember.Let's please keep it to what I said even if you are anonymous. I find little excuse for those that are obviously very closely involved with 3ABN to remain anonymous in their defense. If you do, others will have to decide if they take the word of someone that is afraid to own their own words.
While on the one hand you state that you can understand why some do, on the other hand it prevents you from choosing to accept anything they say as the truth.
Actually this is clsoer to what I have been saying,don't you think.You might be telling the truth 100%, but I am not real big on anonymous sources as their fire being truth. So I would have no idea.
Not involved enough to try to find out if what you say is true or not.
Obviously you don't like that either, but explain to me if you can how can I determine the truth of anonymous faceless,unknown posters??Many times it ends up questioning the ones you do know, but at least that is somewhat possible. So do tell me,where would I go to find the facts and the truth behind anyman or sam??
The other defenders of DS are not really saying anymore than their counterparts on the other side. But just how would I dertermint the truthfulness of the key players on this forum?
Maybe it is because the 3ABN defenders do not continually complain or talk about what they have personally gone through because of those who do know, or think they know, who some of the defenders are. Some of us and including friends we know, family members and pastors have received harassing phone calls from the members of the other side and some several times a day.
I have heard the other side say same and not anonymously either. For those that are key players in this, can't stand the heat, get out of the fire.
Some phone calls actually have someone calling the receiver a vile name and hanging up. One actually asked for one of the defenders by a log in name and when asked where they got the phone number they said the phone book. The log in name has never been in any phone book and the person they were trying to call didn’t even have a phone number listed or unlisted. Some of us have had the other side come to our homes. Then there are those of us who get banned because family members have the same IP # so we choose a server that gives anonymity. Others are banned because they use the same server that gives anonymity so have to seek another.
Again, you seem to be borrowing from the oppositions play book. Seems I hahve heard this before. But at least the DS defenders have a chance of knowing their anonymous counterpart.
Didn't ask about the anonymous server, but thank you for the explaination why they are being used.
None of us want our children, grandchildren, other family members, or friends to suffer in any way and to especially hear such vile talk. The calls come from men and women alike.
Another page from the same playbook only the other side.
One more time and we will see if you and others can get it.
I have not kept track of much of what has been said. My opinion of DS is my opinion. He was very instrumental in aiding in that.
I can understand why some remain anonymous. I do not understand why key players expect to be believed while they remain anonymous, the ones that have so much to say about the opposition stand by DS as long as they can defend him anonymously.
I hold DS to a higher standard because in part he claims such a high standard ,others place him at a higher standard as proof of his innocence AND he has the world stage.for his audience.
People recognize his name when they would not Jan Paulsen.
LS, whether guilty as accused is not that relevant today,unless she has the public venue to take her case. Is Bob,Gailon and Fran lying?? I have no knowledge of the two men, but I have never known Fran to lie. Has she been wrong at times, I would assume so. But she does not do so anonymously.
Can I say the same for Ian,anyman,sam?? Don't know, maybe they are the ones lying. What is there about an anonymous statement, by an anonymous person???
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I was sent this email by someone who had direct contact with Hartland. Feels like Dejuvu to me.
I received this from Hartland on 5/28/2007.
Dear********
Yes, Gailon Joy was indirectly involved (or at least he tried to get himself involved). He was never a member of the staff, nor was he a member of any of its organizational bodies, so he only wrote what he heard by word of mouth. Most of what he wrote at that time was sheer misrepresentations of fact. In my opinion, he tried to spin anything and everything he heard in its worst possible construction. He has no compunction about bearing false witness. He totally discredited himself to the vast majority of the staff at Hartland. His spin was so outlandish that it wasn’t credible to anyone that knew the truth. He was apparently being fed information though, from at least one disgruntled insider at Hartland, but never once did he bother to check with both sides on any story. He only consulted (obviously) with the one that he chose to represent (or rather with the one he used to make his misrepresentations). Most of our staff at the time got the very clear impression that he was not trying to be fair in his assessment, but rather biased – and in the extreme. So when we began reading what he wrote about 3ABN, we simply sent the emails to the dustbin. There may be elements of truth in what he has written about 3ABN (large or small), but I don’t recommend that you trust his spin. Be sure you can verify what he says from other sources.
We had the feeling that he enjoyed the work of trying to cut down institutions attempting to do God’s work and attempting to discredit their leaders. He seems to have a lot of time to waste on this self-appointed work. He also apparently claims that he was responsible for the dismissal of one of the presidents of AUC (which may have been needed), but I doubt that he was the one who accomplished it or that bears the responsibility for it.
Anyway, for what it is worth, that is my take on the situation.
God bless and keep you,
Sincerely,
(Pastor) Hal Mayer
Thank-you, SAM, for the reminder of my firm stand against Hal Mayer's leadership role at Hartland, WHICH STILL STANDS, and is supported by many Directors, Officers, AD COM members and staffers over the years. I will repeat the history for you and STILL STAND FIRMLY OPPOSED TO HAL MAYER"S FAILED LEADERSHIP!!!
Let us start the response with my basis for injecting myself into the Hartland mess:
1) I had been a long term Hartland Supporter and contributed frequently to Hartland until Hal's second coup;
2) As a Director of New England Minisitries, we had encouraged the support of Hartland Institute and had raised large sums from New Englanders over more than a decade and Hal was a recipient on several occasions, Ron Goss and Dr Colin Standish on others;
3) New England Ministries, a conservative forum, had co-sponsored the 150th anniversary of the Great Disappointment in October, 2004 with Hartland Institute and Hope International (Hal Mayer was NOT an invited speaker for a number of reasons) a program that ran for nearly three months on the local Cable System;
4) Hal Mayer, as have so many other dissidents, has been a visitor to my home and has sought New England Ministries help with several projects over the years;
5) Many of our youth in New England were encouraged to attend Hartland Institute and in fact many New Englanders have graduated from there;
6) Many of the New England Ministry supporters over the years have taken the mission call to Hartland and served in many capacitites, including Hartland Directors, members of AD Com and other staff positions.
7) To a large degree, the failure of the Officers and staff at Hartland to work with the church and to follow Spirit of Prophecy educational standards was the reason for the founding of Outchetah Hills (Clark had been the Chairman at Hartland Institute before developing plans for an alternative at OH);
Hartland has suffered greatly as a result of Hal's first coup and Hal's second coup d'etat and if he had absolute control of Hartland Institute, we would logically have just another cult.
Much to the chagrin of Hal Mayer, I had many sources for the Hartland Stories, including directors, officers, staff and constituents. One major source regarding Hal Mayer's personal behavious was his own secretary who resigned and left Hartland Institute in protest to what she observed and heard.
My initial letter resulted from what I viewed as a serious conflict of interest where the Stewardship Director, Hal Mayer, of Hartland Instutute was under discipline and faced a pending disciplinary action beforoe the Board of Directors for waht some viewed as insubordination. While this conflict raged, Hal Mayer was defiant and found ways around the restrictions placed upon him by the AD COM.
In what was a clear self preservation move because he was not sure how the votes would line up in a pending Board of Directors meeting, Hal Mayer moved to take over the tape ministry of a venerable old warhorse and standard bearer, Elder Lawrence Nelson, Speaker and Director of Keep the Faith tape ministries. I broke the story (I believe thats called reporting) and protested Hal Mayer's conflict of interest of utilizing his Stewardship Director's position to grab what should have been been a terrific addition to the Hartland Media Center.
Hal Mayer's actions and accountability was so out of control, The Media Center director and another key player both resigned in protest and one is retired while the other works for Amazing Facts (she and her husband were voted out of the constituency by a cabal of Meyer supporters).
Instead of serving Hartland Institutes purposes as Stewardship Secretary, adding much needed revenues to the Hartland balance sheet, Hal Mayer took over the Keep The Faith Tape ministry based on the West Coast, retained his STEWARDSHIP DIRECTOR'S position at Hartland and transferred the ministry to Virginia to his own benefit.
Once again, those IRS 990's tell the story and demonstrate a man collecting for services at Hartland while running a seperate 501(c) 3 ministry for his own benefit. Obviously, the 990's are readily available to those who wish to see the revenue stream and the rather hefty balance sheet the Stewardship Director inherited from Elder Lawrence Nelson. A sum that I feel should have been recovered to the benefit of Hartland Institute, not Hal Mayer, the STEWARDSHIP DIRECTOR.
My position was not a conflict of one (Gailon Arthur Joy) versus Hal Mayer or even Hartland Institute, but rather a position I shared with many others on Hartlands Board of Directors, it's AD COM, some officers and many staffers. In fact, it was the seive of Hartland that provided all the sources for the various stories.
The battle to restore Hal Mayer by Hal Mayer supporters had many of the characteristics we have observed at many other independent ministries, including 3ABN. The difference is that the directors were narrowly split and a single vote restored Hal Mayer and moved him on his way to virtual control, including the purging of even the Hartland constituency in unprecedented challenges to opponents.
The Chairman of the Board resigned in protest. Others followed suit. Elder Ron Spear even called for reformation but the pleas fell on deaf ears.
Since this conflict, Hartland has seen the lifting of the Blessing of the Lord. Some examples include but are not limited to, and a key staffers' son was killed when he fell from a moving motor vehicle while traversing the campus. The staffer (a controller) resigned and his wife filed suit against Hartland and settled for an undisclosed sum a little more than a year ago; The sanitarium facility contributed largely by the McKee Family had to be condemned and shut down. Osha and state officials have born down heavily on Hartland shutting down Dorm Facilities and imposing various other fire and safety standards upon Hartland Institute; the new auditorium has restricted usage that requires stand-by fire crews paid by Hartland during camp meetings and other events until Hartland installs a very expensive sprinkler system; Hartland's student body has shrunk to less than fifty based upon reports (those "unreliable" sources) and they obviously have almost no real media ministry, let a lone the failed health program.
If someone would like to open a Hartland Thread, I shall be happy share the many writings, including the exhortations of H. Bear, a mystery writer to this day. I also have such jewels as the Chairman's exit letter, Ron Spears' letter, and exhortations from other directors, including the purged directors.
So, SAM, thank you for the opportunity to rehash an old series of reports. I suppose that is proof that we have been ecclesiatical reporters long before
3ABN (oh, well, there goes another 3ABN allegation in the lawsuit). In fact, this was the first story we did outside the Atlantic Union, thus the title Atlantic Union Reporter for many years.
And yes, it is true that we wrote many a story and warned many an administrator of the issues at Atlantic Union College during the late 90's; and yes, we even were given top secret documents and published them to warn of imminent loss of Accreditation; and yes, you are correct, Most Directors, some Officers, and some staffers largely dismissed our warnings and calls for change while those with talent and wide open eyes exited;AUC pooh, poohed us even when we published the warning letter from NEASC; The president once stood in a general assembly of staff and students and told them we were the enemy!!! Union Officers and Directors heard us loud and clear but stood helplessly by, that is until AUC ACTUALLY LOST IT'S ACCREDITATION AND IT'S FEDERAL GRANTS AND LOANS. Only the quick firing of the president and his CRONIES and the hiring of an imminently qualified president (retired from Southern) was able to partially turn it around. However, the damages to the institution were so deep and cost so much that the institution still teeters on the verge of closure five years later.
We do not enjoy "cutting down institutions" but will accept any challenge when that leadership is clearly abusing their position and utilizing an institution dedicated to the Lord's work for their own gain. That will continue to be my avocation and Lord knows there is plenty of fodder for the presses, even at Hartland Institute. And we will continue to be a voice for the abused and disappointed underpaid missionaries that quietly go about their work despite the clear abuses of miscreant "leadership".
And thank-you, Hal Mayer, for the opportunity to yet again re-open the discussion of these critical issues found so often in cultic ministries. Since you have played the Pied Piper roll at Hartland for it's entire history, it is appropriate, with Colin Standish so close to retirement or other demise, to consider what would be best for Hartland Institute's future, and No, you are clearly not it!!!
Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter
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Bonnie, I have modified my earlier response to indicate that I was replying to Sister's response to your post.
BTW, most take the Sister missives as gospel without knowing who her sources are, without any documentation of the allegations she has penned and without knowing who she actually is. Is it wisdom to accept such purely by faith?
And, since you know who Sister is, do you have FAITH or are you simply a detractor and pretender searching for the truth, while you press home your efforts to undermine any opposition to your secret agenda?
And when you speak, do you speak for only yourself or are you frequently representing the faithless inquiries of former lawyers and other dtractors with a celar agenda to undermine and avoid the truth!!!
Gailon Arthur Joy
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Now, let's change one letter in a statement Bonnie made and see if the sentiment applies equally to the other side:
I know some on the outer edges of this mess may have a good reason for hiding their identity. When those that so staunchly and almost fanatically defend LS hide their identity it loses a lot of credibility.
Hammer still directly on target?
Let's try this once more.
What I said applies to both sides. I realize there are reasons for some to hide their identity. I don't care what the reason,Gailon,Joy and Fran's identity is right out there. You know who you are interacting with. I do not see that always on the other side. I see those very strident in their defense of DS,but I don't know who, haven't a clue if they come 3 for 1 price or not. Their dogmatic approach is not very convincing to me personally.
If you are as in a interested by stander it is probably not important what or who you are. When you reach the level of "I KNOW" then maybe it is time to stand up and put a name to the "I KNOW"
Frankly, anything Ian,anyman,sam have to say I take with a grain of salt. They want to be front and center in the defense of DS so badly yet hide
Doesn't mean I agree with or believe everything that is posted with a known name. It does mean at least I know whom I am dealing with instead of interacting with those that could be, Ian,Sam,anyman,DS, all rolled into one
Bonnie,
Some of what you say I agree with. What I do see though is contrary to your claims of being even handed, you are as one sided as anyone. You are basically saying that if we don't present our real names we don't carry validity. Fine. But I have never seen you address that directly to Sister who has played a huge part in defamation, or Snoopy, or Artiste or SSOM or Watchbird.....all either against 3abn and/or friends and supporters of Linda.
As Grandma pointed out you haven't made an issue out of a huge amount of emails submitted by the other side with names deleted and much of the wording edited. You only bring it up to me and my one paltry little email. FYI, I wasn't sure if the party that sent it to me wanted the names left in so deciding to err on the side of caution and confidentiality I deleted them. I later found out it was fine to leave them in. Had nothing whatsoever to do with playing games.
Speaking of, your take on the IRS announcements couldn't be any more off base as far as "milking" and "games" go. I thought I had explained this but will try again to make you understand the events as they happened.
The attorney that handled the IRS case (not Duffy) called 3abn & Duffy and said he had just been contacted by the IRS with the question "did Danny and 3abn want their documents back or destroyed"? The attorney ask then if the investigation was over? The agent said he could not say "officially" but the 3abn attorney could contact the AG's office for official word. It was a day or two later before the Attorney got in touch with the AG's office. He was told from someone in that office that yes, officially it was over with no fines, penalities, etc and (for reasons I won't go into ) it had been a mistake to start the investigation in the first place. Hence, the apology of sorry your organization had to deal with this.
Once 3abn received this news, they ask if it could be made public as was only fair as the investigation was made public thanks to certain people. Some of those that new about it told it here on the internet. That should have been the end of it. But no, Bonnie you like the other's here could not accept that and leave it alone. So what you call milking the situation was in reality you all not believing what we the defenders had told you. Why should you have believed it? Because it would be of a too serious nature to say something untrue publically where the IRS is concerned. It could have gotten 3abn, Danny and other people in a lot of trouble so why would the defenders put it out there if it wasn't so?
Because 3abn wanted to be able to prove to the diehards that it was over, days later they contacted the attorney's and ask for a letter of clearance. The attorney said they normally do not do that but he would try. Over a period of a couple of weeks he tried talking to the AG but never made contact.
Because the attorney himself had spoken previously with the AG's office and knew it was over he decided along with Duffy to write a confirmation letter since he had not been able to contact the AG with 3abn's request for a letter.
So Bonnie, games? No. Milking? No. Just battling with the redtape and hands of time where the government is concerned.
Never did anyone say there would be a letter of apology. That was verbal in a phone conversation. The only fault I might accept for the 3abn defenders is having faith that the attorney's would be able to contact the AG and get an Official letter from the IRS. When we said there would be a letter we were trusting in the government to do what was right but it didn't work that way. Our fault since the attorney said to begin with that the IRS doesn't work that way and we should have listened. That is NO reflection on DS or 3abn as no one has ever told me to come on the internet and write anything. I think the rest of the defenders can say the same. I use my own judgement and give my own opinion based on facts known to me.
Had people used their heads and common sense when we announced 3abn was cleared ,all of this "drama" as you call it would have never taken place. Your side is the reason it was drawn out.
I also want to address a post you made fairly recently where you said that your opinion of Danny was from Danny and his actions not from what anyone else has said.
Do you know Danny personally? Have you had interaction with him or the "higher ups" at 3abn? If you answer no to these questions then the only opinion you could have of DS is over what you have read on the internet. The accusations, edited emails, and the spins put on everything that is said and done.
Since someone at 3abntalk put the link to the only letters and program that concerned Linda, no one can possibly continue the lie that 3abn and DS publically trashed her. Go look at the video. REad the letters. Then come back and say 3abn/DS trashed Linda on the air or anywhere else.
I believe you said you weren't a 3abn viewer so all of your opinions of Danny have come from somewhere else. As much as you want to believe that you are more reasonable than other's here (and sometimes you are) you still ended up as judge and jury where Danny is concerned and you came to your conclusions by faulty, tampered with information.
No Bonnie this is not a game to me...far from it. The whole mess that Linda, Gailon, Pickle has started sickens me. The fact that 3abn was forced to bring a lawsuit because of all of their defamation and lies sickens me. The wound to the ministry sickens me. I am here only to defend what I know to be right. To let the lurkers see that all isn't painted as Pickle and Joy want people to believe. Luckily they have been painting their own selves into a corner where their shennanigans are concerned, which makes less work for me. But, as long as I feel I have to be here, I will fight fire with fire. The difference being, my fire is truth.
Thank-you for yet another set of details. So which story is the accurate story? In other words, which story is the truth?
Gailon Arthur Joy
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Since this conflict, Hartland has seen the lifting of the Blessing of the Lord. Some examples include but are not limited to, and a key staffers' son was killed when he fell from a moving motor vehicle while traversing the campus. The staffer (a controller) resigned and his wife filed suit against Hartland and settled for an undisclosed sum a little more than a year ago; The sanitarium facility contributed largely by the McKee Family had to be condemned and shut down. Osha and state officials have born down heavily on Hartland shutting down Dorm Facilities and imposing various other fire and safety standards upon Hartland Institute; the new auditorium has restricted usage that requires stand-by fire crews paid by Hartland during camp meetings and other events until Hartland installs a very expensive sprinkler system; Hartland's student body has shrunk to less than fifty based upon reports (those "unreliable" sources) and they obviously have almost no real media ministry, let a lone the failed health program.
Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter
Back for a bit from lurkage.
Have you considered Job? You seem to have the same misguided interpretation of life on Planet Earth that Job's friends did. To actually use the death of someone's child as evidience that God had withdrawn His blessing from those folks is beyond pathetic. If one of your family members dies or is hurt does that mean that God has withdrawn His blessing from you? Did you attribute the devastating tsunami to God lifting His blessing from all those folks who were washed away by the rampaging waves?
Bad things happen to both good and bad folks.
Disgusting.
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Our brethren had no trouble attributing the San Francisco earthquake to the wickedness of the people at that time, when even the preachers were scoffing at the remonstrances of someone who I think was a Catholic priest. The brethren in that special issue of The Signs of the Times even stated that the scoffing printed in the newspaper(s), that ink wasn't even dried when the earthquake hit.
Of course, we need to be careful about that. But the facts are that sometimes God does indeed send judgments.
I refrain from saying whether the incident referred to qualifies, whether those involved were being picked on by Satan like Job, or otherwise.
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Since this conflict, Hartland has seen the lifting of the Blessing of the Lord. Some examples include but are not limited to, and a key staffers' son was killed when he fell from a moving motor vehicle while traversing the campus. The staffer (a controller) resigned and his wife filed suit against Hartland and settled for an undisclosed sum a little more than a year ago; The sanitarium facility contributed largely by the McKee Family had to be condemned and shut down. Osha and state officials have born down heavily on Hartland shutting down Dorm Facilities and imposing various other fire and safety standards upon Hartland Institute; the new auditorium has restricted usage that requires stand-by fire crews paid by Hartland during camp meetings and other events until Hartland installs a very expensive sprinkler system; Hartland's student body has shrunk to less than fifty based upon reports (those "unreliable" sources) and they obviously have almost no real media ministry, let a lone the failed health program.
Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter
Back for a bit from lurkage.
Have you considered Job? You seem to have the same misguided interpretation of life on Planet Earth that Job's friends did. To actually use the death of someone's child as evidience that God had withdrawn His blessing from those folks is beyond pathetic. If one of your family members dies or is hurt does that mean that God has withdrawn His blessing from you? Did you attribute the devastating tsunami to God lifting His blessing from all those folks who were washed away by the rampaging waves?
Bad things happen to both good and bad folks.
Disgusting.
In fact, I do. I believe that everything that happens has a purpose. And I believe in cause and affect.
As to the tsunami, it is clearly evidence of the Lord's withdrawing his hand from a decaying world. The Spirit of Prophecy warns of Islands moved out of their place and we saw that!!! Sumatra literally changed it's GPS coordinates.
And how many hundreds of thousands lost their lives? And I doubt we have seen the worst of it yet.
AND YUP, I absolutely do believe that when institutes dedicated to the Lord's work loose their way and aposticize they will pay an aweful price!!!
So learn to live with your disgust!!! But don't miss the warning signs!!!
Gailon Arthur Joy
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Yup. Dejavu all right. Hey sammy, thanks for opening up this can of worms.
I was sent this email by someone who had direct contact with Hartland. Feels like Dejuvu to me.
I received this from Hartland on 5/28/2007.
Dear********
Yes, Gailon Joy was indirectly involved (or at least he tried to get himself involved). He was never a member of the staff, nor was he a member of any of its organizational bodies, so he only wrote what he heard by word of mouth. Most of what he wrote at that time was sheer misrepresentations of fact. In my opinion, he tried to spin anything and everything he heard in its worst possible construction. He has no compunction about bearing false witness. He totally discredited himself to the vast majority of the staff at Hartland. His spin was so outlandish that it wasn’t credible to anyone that knew the truth. He was apparently being fed information though, from at least one disgruntled insider at Hartland, but never once did he bother to check with both sides on any story. He only consulted (obviously) with the one that he chose to represent (or rather with the one he used to make his misrepresentations). Most of our staff at the time got the very clear impression that he was not trying to be fair in his assessment, but rather biased – and in the extreme. So when we began reading what he wrote about 3ABN, we simply sent the emails to the dustbin. There may be elements of truth in what he has written about 3ABN (large or small), but I don’t recommend that you trust his spin. Be sure you can verify what he says from other sources.
We had the feeling that he enjoyed the work of trying to cut down institutions attempting to do God’s work and attempting to discredit their leaders. He seems to have a lot of time to waste on this self-appointed work. He also apparently claims that he was responsible for the dismissal of one of the presidents of AUC (which may have been needed), but I doubt that he was the one who accomplished it or that bears the responsibility for it.
Anyway, for what it is worth, that is my take on the situation.
God bless and keep you,
Sincerely,
(Pastor) Hal Mayer
Thank-you, SAM, for the reminder of my firm stand against Hal Mayer's leadership role at Hartland, WHICH STILL STANDS, and is supported by many Directors, Officers, AD COM members and staffers over the years. I will repeat the history for you and STILL STAND FIRMLY OPPOSED TO HAL MAYER"S FAILED LEADERSHIP!!!
Let us start the response with my basis for injecting myself into the Hartland mess:
1) I had been a long term Hartland Supporter and contributed frequently to Hartland until Hal's second coup;
2) As a Director of New England Minisitries, we had encouraged the support of Hartland Institute and had raised large sums from New Englanders over more than a decade and Hal was a recipient on several occasions, Ron Goss and Dr Colin Standish on others;
3) New England Ministries, a conservative forum, had co-sponsored the 150th anniversary of the Great Disappointment in October, 2004 with Hartland Institute and Hope International (Hal Mayer was NOT an invited speaker for a number of reasons) a program that ran for nearly three months on the local Cable System;
4) Hal Mayer, as have so many other dissidents, has been a visitor to my home and has sought New England Ministries help with several projects over the years;
5) Many of our youth in New England were encouraged to attend Hartland Institute and in fact many New Englanders have graduated from there;
6) Many of the New England Ministry supporters over the years have taken the mission call to Hartland and served in many capacitites, including Hartland Directors, members of AD Com and other staff positions.
7) To a large degree, the failure of the Officers and staff at Hartland to work with the church and to follow Spirit of Prophecy educational standards was the reason for the founding of Outchetah Hills (Clark had been the Chairman at Hartland Institute before developing plans for an alternative at OH);
Hartland has suffered greatly as a result of Hal's first coup and Hal's second coup d'etat and if he had absolute control of Hartland Institute, we would logically have just another cult.
Much to the chagrin of Hal Mayer, I had many sources for the Hartland Stories, including directors, officers, staff and constituents. One major source regarding Hal Mayer's personal behavious was his own secretary who resigned and left Hartland Institute in protest to what she observed and heard.
My initial letter resulted from what I viewed as a serious conflict of interest where the Stewardship Director, Hal Mayer, of Hartland Instutute was under discipline and faced a pending disciplinary action beforoe the Board of Directors for waht some viewed as insubordination. While this conflict raged, Hal Mayer was defiant and found ways around the restrictions placed upon him by the AD COM.
In what was a clear self preservation move because he was not sure how the votes would line up in a pending Board of Directors meeting, Hal Mayer moved to take over the tape ministry of a venerable old warhorse and standard bearer, Elder Lawrence Nelson, Speaker and Director of Keep the Faith tape ministries. I broke the story (I believe thats called reporting) and protested Hal Mayer's conflict of interest of utilizing his Stewardship Director's position to grab what should have been been a terrific addition to the Hartland Media Center.
Hal Mayer's actions and accountability was so out of control, The Media Center director and another key player both resigned in protest and one is retired while the other works for Amazing Facts (she and her husband were voted out of the constituency by a cabal of Meyer supporters).
Instead of serving Hartland Institutes purposes as Stewardship Secretary, adding much needed revenues to the Hartland balance sheet, Hal Mayer took over the Keep The Faith Tape ministry based on the West Coast, retained his STEWARDSHIP DIRECTOR'S position at Hartland and transferred the ministry to Virginia to his own benefit.
Once again, those IRS 990's tell the story and demonstrate a man collecting for services at Hartland while running a seperate 501(c) 3 ministry for his own benefit. Obviously, the 990's are readily available to those who wish to see the revenue stream and the rather hefty balance sheet the Stewardship Director inherited from Elder Lawrence Nelson. A sum that I feel should have been recovered to the benefit of Hartland Institute, not Hal Mayer, the STEWARDSHIP DIRECTOR.
My position was not a conflict of one (Gailon Arthur Joy) versus Hal Mayer or even Hartland Institute, but rather a position I shared with many others on Hartlands Board of Directors, it's AD COM, some officers and many staffers. In fact, it was the seive of Hartland that provided all the sources for the various stories.
The battle to restore Hal Mayer by Hal Mayer supporters had many of the characteristics we have observed at many other independent ministries, including 3ABN. The difference is that the directors were narrowly split and a single vote restored Hal Mayer and moved him on his way to virtual control, including the purging of even the Hartland constituency in unprecedented challenges to opponents.
The Chairman of the Board resigned in protest. Others followed suit. Elder Ron Spear even called for reformation but the pleas fell on deaf ears.
Since this conflict, Hartland has seen the lifting of the Blessing of the Lord. Some examples include but are not limited to, and a key staffers' son was killed when he fell from a moving motor vehicle while traversing the campus. The staffer (a controller) resigned and his wife filed suit against Hartland and settled for an undisclosed sum a little more than a year ago; The sanitarium facility contributed largely by the McKee Family had to be condemned and shut down. Osha and state officials have born down heavily on Hartland shutting down Dorm Facilities and imposing various other fire and safety standards upon Hartland Institute; the new auditorium has restricted usage that requires stand-by fire crews paid by Hartland during camp meetings and other events until Hartland installs a very expensive sprinkler system; Hartland's student body has shrunk to less than fifty based upon reports (those "unreliable" sources) and they obviously have almost no real media ministry, let a lone the failed health program.
If someone would like to open a Hartland Thread, I shall be happy share the many writings, including the exhortations of H. Bear, a mystery writer to this day. I also have such jewels as the Chairman's exit letter, Ron Spears' letter, and exhortations from other directors, including the purged directors.
So, SAM, thank you for the opportunity to rehash an old series of reports. I suppose that is proof that we have been ecclesiatical reporters long before
3ABN (oh, well, there goes another 3ABN allegation in the lawsuit). In fact, this was the first story we did outside the Atlantic Union, thus the title Atlantic Union Reporter for many years.
And yes, it is true that we wrote many a story and warned many an administrator of the issues at Atlantic Union College during the late 90's; and yes, we even were given top secret documents and published them to warn of imminent loss of Accreditation; and yes, you are correct, Most Directors, some Officers, and some staffers largely dismissed our warnings and calls for change while those with talent and wide open eyes exited;AUC pooh, poohed us even when we published the warning letter from NEASC; The president once stood in a general assembly of staff and students and told them we were the enemy!!! Union Officers and Directors heard us loud and clear but stood helplessly by, that is until AUC ACTUALLY LOST IT'S ACCREDITATION AND IT'S FEDERAL GRANTS AND LOANS. Only the quick firing of the president and his CRONIES and the hiring of an imminently qualified president (retired from Southern) was able to partially turn it around. However, the damages to the institution were so deep and cost so much that the institution still teeters on the verge of closure five years later.
We do not enjoy "cutting down institutions" but will accept any challenge when that leadership is clearly abusing their position and utilizing an institution dedicated to the Lord's work for their own gain. That will continue to be my avocation and Lord knows there is plenty of fodder for the presses, even at Hartland Institute. And we will continue to be a voice for the abused and disappointed underpaid missionaries that quietly go about their work despite the clear abuses of miscreant "leadership".
And thank-you, Hal Mayer, for the opportunity to yet again re-open the discussion of these critical issues found so often in cultic ministries. Since you have played the Pied Piper roll at Hartland for it's entire history, it is appropriate, with Colin Standish so close to retirement or other demise, to consider what would be best for Hartland Institute's future, and No, you are clearly not it!!!
Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter
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Bonnie, it must really be a bone of contention to you when someone leaves out the name of a person or is themselves using an anonymous name or server as you mention it quite often. While on the one hand you state that you can understand why some do, on the other hand it prevents you from choosing to accept anything they say as the truth. Maybe it is because the 3ABN defenders do not continually complain or talk about what they have personally gone through because of those who do know, or think they know, who some of the defenders are. Some of us and including friends we know, family members and pastors have received harassing phone calls from the members of the other side and some several times a day. Some phone calls actually have someone calling the receiver a vile name and hanging up. One actually asked for one of the defenders by a log in name and when asked where they got the phone number they said the phone book. The log in name has never been in any phone book and the person they were trying to call didn’t even have a phone number listed or unlisted. Some of us have had the other side come to our homes. Then there are those of us who get banned because family members have the same IP # so we choose a server that gives anonymity. Others are banned because they use the same server that gives anonymity so have to seek another.
None of us want our children, grandchildren, other family members, or friends to suffer in any way and to especially hear such vile talk. The calls come from men and women alike.
Wow. Deja vu. I remember Tommy voicing some of the same complaints when he was being "persecuted" in the late 80s. People were coming to his house, calling at all hours of the day and night, harassing him and his family, etc.
Don't you people ever think of anything new?