Advent Talk
Issues & Concerns Category => 3ABN => Topic started by: SDAminister on October 24, 2008, 12:34:33 AM
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McKee
On the heels of blatant Sabbath-breaking by 3ABN board member “Dr.” Wintley Phipps, comes the latest news that yet another 3ABN board member is engaging in Sabbath-breaking, as well as various other activities which are in direct contravention to the beliefs and mission of the Seventh-day Adventist Church.
Ellsworth Mckee, 3ABN board member and Chairman of the Board of McKee Foods (Little Debbie Snacks) is the responsible party. He also serves on the board of ASI whose byline is "Sharing Christ in the Marketplace."
Sabbath-breaking
Little Debbie sponsors a NASCAR motor racing team.
Much has been made over the fact that apparently, Little Debbie covers their ad decals on the car on Sabbath. But one cannot overlook the fact that they are a major sponsor and are paying money to support this race team---and this team races on the Sabbath! But lo! What’s this? www.littledebbie.com/about/DarlingtonReport.asp. It’s just one of many race reports from 3ABN Board Member McKee’s Little Debbie Racing website. And the report goes into great detail of how the race went that Sabbath day, and it even advertises when the next race will be the following Sabbath. How does this fit in with Sharing Christ in the Marketplace? How is this counteracting the counterfeit?
But the SDA position is clear:
Jesus, the Lifegiver, who has paid the ransom of his own life for the life of the world, looks upon these wild scenes; and bending down he says, "If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace!" Gisborne, New Zealand, is one of the places where scenes like that I have described take place. The people of this town are now waiting for their turn at the races, and they look forward to the day of the race as if some great blessing were then to be bestowed upon them. Thousands upon thousands of pounds of money are expended every year on horse-races and games of a wilder variety. The panic of desire is so contagious that even church-members, professed Christians, are carried away with the excitement, and give countenance to the races by presenting themselves as spectators. If they do not bet on the races, they are still one with the transactors in spirit, and their doings are registered and condemned in the courts of heaven. They are reckoned among the godless company, and must give an account to God for their wasted time and money.“ Review and Herald 1894-03-06 Emphasis mine.
Worldy Associations
I noted this send-in offer for novels on the back of a Little Debbie product at the grocer’s:
“Young readers can experience the wonder of timeless stories from an early age. Each hardbound classic is filled with all the magic and excitement that made the original story a beloved masterpiece. The titles are: Heidi, Tom Sawyer, Black Beauty, The Secret Garden, and Treasure Island.” [Black Beauty is notable in that it is the autobiography of a horse].
But the SDA church teaches that:
“Novel and storybook reading are the greatest evils in which youth can indulge. Novel and love-story readers always fail to make good, practical mothers. They are air-castle builders, living in an unreal, an imaginary world. They become sentimental and have sick fancies. Their artificial life spoils them for anything useful. They are dwarfed in intellect, although they may flatter themselves that they are superior in mind and manners“. 3T 151
How is this Sharing Christ in the Marketplace? Or, better yet, how is this spreading the message of the 3 Angels? How does pushing such fiction upon young folk counteract the counterfeit Mr. McKee? It doesn't!!
More worldly associations and business practices
Additionally, there’s the hawking of the product using things like Hollywood celebrities (www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHSndtw2Xxw), admiration for Santa Claus (www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWyRoWMjsc0), and, of course, the abomination of a talking koala bear (www.youtube.com/watch?v=apBmCAG5uRg). Sharing Christ in the Marketplace? Indeed, McKee Foods spends millions of dollars on TV ads pushing its various products. The dollars spent on advertising directly support the production of the worldly TV shows aired. Is this also Sharing Christ in the Marketplace?
Snacking
But what of the core business of McKee Foods and Little Debbie, that of being the number one snack cake in the US? What’s wrong with that?
The Random House Unadbriged Dictionary defines a snack thusly: a small portion of food or drink or a light meal, esp. one eaten between regular meals.
But the SDA church teaches that:
“I am astonished to learn that, after all the light that has been given in this place, many of you eat between meals! You should never let a morsel pass your lips between your regular meals. Eat what you ought, but eat it at one meal, and then wait until the next.” 2T.373
The refusal to follow church teaching leads 3ABN board member McKee to engage in the following predatory marketing practices which are intended
“…to go after young men who are known to be notorious snackers and impulse buyers, and always on the go," said Barry Anthony, director-marketing for McKee.”
www.allbusiness.com/marketing-advertising/branding-brand-development/4676476-1.html
Politics
And what of 3ABN board member Ellsworth McKee and his delving into the political world?
www.campaignmoney.com/political/contributions/ellsworth-mckee.asp?cycle=06
Again, the SDA church is clear:
“The Lord would have His people bury political questions. On these themes silence is eloquence. Christ calls upon His followers to come into unity on the pure gospel principles which are plainly revealed in the word of God. We cannot with safety vote for political parties; for we do not know whom we are voting for. We cannot with safety take part in any political scheme……... What are we to do, then?--Let political questions alone. "Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? and what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?"[2 COR. 6:14, 15.] What can there be in common between these parties? There can be no fellowship, no communion.” Gospel Workers p.391-2
Summary
The question rages: Does Ellsworth McKee know what the Three Angels Message is that he supports at 3ABN? Did he not read the November issue of 3ABN World which talks of giving the Undiluted Message?
It’s a sad statement that we have a supposedly SDA company, which is owned by a prominent member of the 3ABN board, selling $1 Billion worth of junk food each year in direct opposition to what Jesus testified. And no amount of donations by Mckee to missions, 3ABN or SDA health centers can assuage the guilt this kind of conduct incurs.
We should be teaching health reform, not deform. How long 3ABN board member Ellsworth McKee will continue to defy the many clear teachings on the Sabbath and health which are broadcast by 3ABN itself and the SDA church, remains to be seen. When will he start to Share Christ in the Marketplace.?
SDAminister
p.s. Even so, let's just hope that Sabbath-breaking is not now pandemic amongst members of 3ABN's board.
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Not that any of the theological outrage matters to me, but I guess that McKee Bakeries would likely point out that a significant percentage of their revenues goes into sponsoring students through Adventist schools, and support for many Adventist outreach and educational projects, and wherever money comes from, it all spends the same. The matters you mention seem to all be issues of theological question as opposed to the questions of criminal activities and the problems with maliciously harming and lying about themselves and others people, that have plagued 3ABN. The only issue I would have with Ellsworth would stem from any support he might have given to the harming of people that 3ABN has done.
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It just makes me sick to my stomach to think that a Christian would post such garbage.
If this is the kind of church that the Seventh day Adventist Church is ...
I want NO part of it. I would run as far away from a church that would promote such hate filled and judgmental words.
Just Sick. These SDAs are doing a good work and you want to tear them down because you have judged that they are not perfect enough according to YOUR standards.
Sick. Just sick.
And you claim to be an SDA minister? Look. I know ministers. I've met SDA ministers. And sir ... You ain't no SDA minister.
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McKee
On the heels of blatant Sabbath-breaking by 3ABN board member “Dr.” Wintley Phipps, comes the latest news that yet another 3ABN board member is engaging in Sabbath-breaking, as well as various other activities which are in direct contravention to the beliefs and mission of the Seventh-day Adventist Church.
Ellsworth Mckee, 3ABN board member and Chairman of the Board of McKee Foods (Little Debbie Snacks) is the responsible party. He also serves on the board of ASI whose byline is "Sharing Christ in the Marketplace."
Sabbath-breaking
Little Debbie sponsors a NASCAR motor racing team.
Much has been made over the fact that apparently, Little Debbie covers their ad decals on the car on Sabbath. But one cannot overlook the fact that they are a major sponsor and are paying money to support this race team---and this team races on the Sabbath! But lo! What’s this? www.littledebbie.com/about/DarlingtonReport.asp. It’s just one of many race reports from 3ABN Board Member McKee’s Little Debbie Racing website. And the report goes into great detail of how the race went that Sabbath day, and it even advertises when the next race will be the following Sabbath. How does this fit in with Sharing Christ in the Marketplace? How is this counteracting the counterfeit?
But the SDA position is clear:
Jesus, the Lifegiver, who has paid the ransom of his own life for the life of the world, looks upon these wild scenes; and bending down he says, "If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace!" Gisborne, New Zealand, is one of the places where scenes like that I have described take place. The people of this town are now waiting for their turn at the races, and they look forward to the day of the race as if some great blessing were then to be bestowed upon them. Thousands upon thousands of pounds of money are expended every year on horse-races and games of a wilder variety. The panic of desire is so contagious that even church-members, professed Christians, are carried away with the excitement, and give countenance to the races by presenting themselves as spectators. If they do not bet on the races, they are still one with the transactors in spirit, and their doings are registered and condemned in the courts of heaven. They are reckoned among the godless company, and must give an account to God for their wasted time and money.“ Review and Herald 1894-03-06 Emphasis mine.
Worldy Associations
I noted this send-in offer for novels on the back of a Little Debbie product at the grocer’s:
“Young readers can experience the wonder of timeless stories from an early age. Each hardbound classic is filled with all the magic and excitement that made the original story a beloved masterpiece. The titles are: Heidi, Tom Sawyer, Black Beauty, The Secret Garden, and Treasure Island.” [Black Beauty is notable in that it is the autobiography of a horse].
But the SDA church teaches that:
“Novel and storybook reading are the greatest evils in which youth can indulge. Novel and love-story readers always fail to make good, practical mothers. They are air-castle builders, living in an unreal, an imaginary world. They become sentimental and have sick fancies. Their artificial life spoils them for anything useful. They are dwarfed in intellect, although they may flatter themselves that they are superior in mind and manners“. 3T 151
How is this Sharing Christ in the Marketplace? Or, better yet, how is this spreading the message of the 3 Angels? How does pushing such fiction upon young folk counteract the counterfeit Mr. McKee? It doesn't!!
More worldly associations and business practices
Additionally, there’s the hawking of the product using things like Hollywood celebrities (www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHSndtw2Xxw), admiration for Santa Claus (www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWyRoWMjsc0), and, of course, the abomination of a talking koala bear (www.youtube.com/watch?v=apBmCAG5uRg). Sharing Christ in the Marketplace? Indeed, McKee Foods spends millions of dollars on TV ads pushing its various products. The dollars spent on advertising directly support the production of the worldly TV shows aired. Is this also Sharing Christ in the Marketplace?
Snacking
But what of the core business of McKee Foods and Little Debbie, that of being the number one snack cake in the US? What’s wrong with that?
The Random House Unadbriged Dictionary defines a snack thusly: a small portion of food or drink or a light meal, esp. one eaten between regular meals.
But the SDA church teaches that:
“I am astonished to learn that, after all the light that has been given in this place, many of you eat between meals! You should never let a morsel pass your lips between your regular meals. Eat what you ought, but eat it at one meal, and then wait until the next.” 2T.373
The refusal to follow church teaching leads 3ABN board member McKee to engage in the following predatory marketing practices which are intended
“…to go after young men who are known to be notorious snackers and impulse buyers, and always on the go," said Barry Anthony, director-marketing for McKee.”
www.allbusiness.com/marketing-advertising/branding-brand-development/4676476-1.html
Politics
And what of 3ABN board member Ellsworth McKee and his delving into the political world?
www.campaignmoney.com/political/contributions/ellsworth-mckee.asp?cycle=06
Again, the SDA church is clear:
“The Lord would have His people bury political questions. On these themes silence is eloquence. Christ calls upon His followers to come into unity on the pure gospel principles which are plainly revealed in the word of God. We cannot with safety vote for political parties; for we do not know whom we are voting for. We cannot with safety take part in any political scheme……... What are we to do, then?--Let political questions alone. "Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? and what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?"[2 COR. 6:14, 15.] What can there be in common between these parties? There can be no fellowship, no communion.” Gospel Workers p.391-2
Summary
The question rages: Does Ellsworth McKee know what the Three Angels Message is that he supports at 3ABN? Did he not read the November issue of 3ABN World which talks of giving the Undiluted Message?
It’s a sad statement that we have a supposedly SDA company, which is owned by a prominent member of the 3ABN board, selling $1 Billion worth of junk food each year in direct opposition to what Jesus testified. And no amount of donations by Mckee to missions, 3ABN or SDA health centers can assuage the guilt this kind of conduct incurs.
We should be teaching health reform, not deform. How long 3ABN board member Ellsworth McKee will continue to defy the many clear teachings on the Sabbath and health which are broadcast by 3ABN itself and the SDA church, remains to be seen. When will he start to Share Christ in the Marketplace.?
SDAminister
p.s. Even so, let's just hope that Sabbath-breaking is not now pandemic amongst members of 3ABN's board.
This sounds very familiar....lets see it was about someone breaking the Sabbath by picking the wheat as they went through the field........who was that.......
:huh:
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This sounds very familiar....lets see it was about someone breaking the Sabbath by picking the wheat as they went through the field........who was that.......
:huh:
I believe those that were accused were the same disciples who later became the founders of the Christian church, under their Master of course.
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McKee
On the heels of blatant Sabbath-breaking by 3ABN board member “Dr.” Wintley Phipps, comes the latest news that yet another 3ABN board member is engaging in Sabbath-breaking, as well as various other activities which are in direct contravention to the beliefs and mission of the Seventh-day Adventist Church.
Ellsworth Mckee, 3ABN board member and Chairman of the Board of McKee Foods (Little Debbie Snacks) is the responsible party. He also serves on the board of ASI whose byline is "Sharing Christ in the Marketplace."
And what of 3ABN board member Ellsworth McKee and his delving into the political world?
www.campaignmoney.com/political/contributions/ellsworth-mckee.asp?cycle=06
There just no telling where those "Little Debbie's can lead" Disgraceful,Maybe their membership in the SDA church be looked into.
Again, the SDA church is clear:
“The Lord would have His people bury political questions. On these themes silence is eloquence. Christ calls upon His followers to come into unity on the pure gospel principles which are plainly revealed in the word of God. We cannot with safety vote for political parties; for we do not know whom we are voting for. We cannot with safety take part in any political scheme……... What are we to do, then?--Let political questions alone. "Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? and what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?"[2 COR. 6:14, 15.] What can there be in common between these parties? There can be no fellowship, no communion.” Gospel Workers p.391-2
Summary
The question rages: Does Ellsworth McKee know what the Three Angels Message is that he supports at 3ABN? Did he not read the November issue of 3ABN World which talks of giving the Undiluted Message?
It’s a sad statement that we have a supposedly SDA company, which is owned by a prominent member of the 3ABN board, selling $1 Billion worth of junk food each year in direct opposition to what Jesus testified. And no amount of donations by Mckee to missions, 3ABN or SDA health centers can assuage the guilt this kind of conduct incurs.
We should be teaching health reform, not deform. How long 3ABN board member Ellsworth McKee will continue to defy the many clear teachings on the Sabbath and health which are broadcast by 3ABN itself and the SDA church, remains to be seen. When will he start to Share Christ in the Marketplace.?
SDAminister
p.s. Even so, let's just hope that Sabbath-breaking is not now pandemic amongst members of 3ABN's board.
edited to correct spelling
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It just makes me sick to my stomach to think that a Christian would post such garbage.
If this is the kind of church that the Seventh day Adventist Church is ...
I want NO part of it. I would run as far away from a church that would promote such hate filled and judgmental words.
Just Sick. These SDAs are doing a good work and you want to tear them down because you have judged that they are not perfect enough according to YOUR standards.
Sick. Just sick.
And you claim to be an SDA minister? Look. I know ministers. I've met SDA ministers. And sir ... You ain't no SDA minister.
Can you spell SDA Pharisee?
I have no doubt that Bob and Gailon have their backers both at GC and those with deep pockets that like to be players in this mess. They are naive if they think this dynamic duo would not turn on them in a heart beat if they stopped playing nice. But one can only wonder how much support Bob and Gailon will continue to get with this kind of self righteous mean spirited pablum and if they insist on continuing the lawsuit after all the whining about being sued.
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This sounds very familiar....lets see it was about someone breaking the Sabbath by picking the wheat as they went through the field........who was that.......
I believe that was Jesus himself, but then bless his heart, he was only living up to the light he had at his time. He didn't have the benefit of the Spirit of Prophecy as written by the Servant of The Lord, nor did he have the end-time truths that we have been given through. We are a special people with a unique message that didn't exist back then. He even ate flesh foods, bless his poor little non-Adventist heart.
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I think what the disciples were doing in the field and what SDA Minister posted about are two completely different and opposite can of worms, and I think we all know it.
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So Daryl, what do you think about what SDA Minister has posted. Do you agree that this is what the SDA church is all about and the image it should be presenting to other Christians?
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One thing for certain the SDA church is about upholding the Sabbath and its required observance as stated in the 4th Commandment.
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That was not my question Daryl. Do you agree with the position taken by SDA Minister and his POV as expressed in his opening paragraph. Do you think the view expressed by SDA Minister is what your church wants presented to the world on how the church views Sabbath observance?
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One thing for certain the SDA church is about upholding the Sabbath and its required observance as stated in the 4th Commandment.
That may be, but 3ABN is not Seventh-day Adventist (as per their statement in the lawsuit against Gailon and Bob) and are not bound by the Church's requirements or observances. That would probably mean that their board members are not either. The details of Sabbath observance are mostly subject to interpretation, so if the McKees interpret differently from any number of SDAs and SDA organizations, that is no different than the millions of other SDAs who deal with the Sabbath according to personal, cultural, family, historic or other interpretations. 3ABN has some big problems, but in my book, that is not one of them.
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From reading the EGW quotes posted there, it is obviously a part of what the SDA Church is about.
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If they are members of the SDA Church, then they are responsible to live up to the standards of the SDA Church, but better still, if they are Christians, then even more so to live up to the standards that God set Himself.
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One thing for certain the SDA church is about upholding the Sabbath and its required observance as stated in the 4th Commandment.
Can you explain what you mean by the above quote. What do you mean by upholding the sabbath.
By force,by going in a deliberate search for sin concerning the sabbath to rail against?
Everyone is to keep in the same manner as ....... Fill in the blanks.
Must I keep the sabbath according to your dictates or that of SDA minister? Do you and others go on this deliberate hunt to see who can be banished from the camp??
Do you or SDA minister keep the sabbath perfectly?? If you don't how would you be able to judge others
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One thing for certain the SDA church is about upholding the Sabbath and its required observance as stated in the 4th Commandment.
However,
1. What is required observance? There were long lists of Sabbath observance rules back in Jesus' day.... how far one could walk, what one could carry, and so on. Jesus addressed that misuse of the Sabbath hours quite clearly. He also got the powers that be pretty upset at Him (in fact so upset with Him they wanted to rid the camp of Him) for healing on the Sabbath. Let's not forget that He attended a wedding on the Sabbath and turned water into wine.
2. Whose job is it to determine what is proper observance between a man and his God? Seems to me it is between the man and his God. Do I push my way into your home and tell you how to treat your wife? No, because that relationship is between the two of you... just as each person's relationship with God is their own business, their own journey in their own time.
Not everyone who is a member of the SDA denomination believes exactly the same, but I think all can agree with what Jesus called the two most important commandments. I like the way it is presented in Mark 12:28 - 34:
28 One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?"
29 "The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. 30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.' 31The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these."
32 "Well said, teacher," the man replied. "You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him. 33 To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices."
34When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God." And from then on no one dared ask him any more questions.
It matters how we treat each other.
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Yes, it does, however, we are also responsible for the sins of others, especially if another person sins and we say nothing to them about it, which unfortunately is happening way too often.
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Yes, it does, however, we are also responsible for the sins of others, especially if another person sins and we say nothing to them about it, which unfortunately is happening way too often.
Do you make a practise of approaching everyone you see sin or sin as you see it.
How about making an effort to find as much sin by certain individuals or gropus.
Would anyone have gone actively looking for this sin had it not been 3ABN related
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This sounds very familiar....lets see it was about someone breaking the Sabbath by picking the wheat as they went through the field........who was that.......
I believe that was Jesus himself, but then bless his heart, he was only living up to the light he had at his time. He didn't have the benefit of the Spirit of Prophecy as written by the Servant of The Lord, nor did he have the end-time truths that we have been given through. We are a special people with a unique message that didn't exist back then. He even ate flesh foods, bless his poor little non-Adventist heart.
Are you inferring, Habanero, that Jesus doesn't categorize people by their denominations? Oh, that's right... He gave Peter that pesky sheet dream that gave the clear message that all humans are of equal importance to Him. Even Catholics. Even sinners.
There may come a time when we will be mandated to choose to follow man or God. In the meantime, if our focus is on the rules instead of on God and on loving and serving those living around us in this world, we are already following man just as folks were urged to do by the Pharisees.
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Yes, it does, however, we are also responsible for the sins of others, especially if another person sins and we say nothing to them about it, which unfortunately is happening way too often.
Daryl, SDA Minister's post is about way more than just discussing Sabbath observance. It is about a person setting themselves up as the judge and jury on issues that many would not consider sin. Do you believe eating a Little Debbie is a sin? Does the quote from EGW make it one? Does reading literature such as Black Beauty or Heidi constitute a sin in your opinion?
These certainly seem to be sins in the POV of SDA Minister. (I can't help but wonder if he gives his kids charcoal as well, BTW). One can only conclude from the OP that SDA Minister believes he has a greater moral authority to speak about the "sins" of other because he does not eat snack cakes and sees those who do as .....
Well.... I guess only SDA Minister can tell us what he thinks of those of us who eat Little Debbies to give college students jobs to get through school......
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Worldy Associations
I noted this send-in offer for novels on the back of a Little Debbie product at the grocer’s:
“Young readers can experience the wonder of timeless stories from an early age. Each hardbound classic is filled with all the magic and excitement that made the original story a beloved masterpiece. The titles are: Heidi, Tom Sawyer, Black Beauty, The Secret Garden, and Treasure Island.” [Black Beauty is notable in that it is the autobiography of a horse].
Black Beauty is a wonderful story for horse lovers of all ages.
But the SDA church teaches that:
“Novel and storybook reading are the greatest evils in which youth can indulge. Novel and love-story readers always fail to make good, practical mothers. They are air-castle builders, living in an unreal, an imaginary world. They become sentimental and have sick fancies. Their artificial life spoils them for anything useful. They are dwarfed in intellect, although they may flatter themselves that they are superior in mind and manners“. 3T 151
They are air-castle builders, living in an unreal, an imaginary world. They become sentimental and have sick fancies
Many of the people I know are avid readers,they certainly read true life books,but have many others they read.
Not a single one has sick fancies.
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When my siblings and I were kids we used to play a game. I Spy Sin. When my parents weren't home we played the game . Somewhat like charades. We had to give hints as to the sin and then guess which church member it was related to.
Sounds a lot like this
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Yes, it does, however, we are also responsible for the sins of others, especially if another person sins and we say nothing to them about it, which unfortunately is happening way too often.
Mark Finley spoke briefly on 1John 5:16 as it relates to the sins of others:
16 If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that.
The way he broke it down was that if one sees someone sinning, they are to pray for that someone and God will send His spirit to reach out to that someone.
We are also told that the Holy Spirit will lead us into all truth. The Spirit has the power to do that. We have a job here also... to use whatever gifts we are given to edify the Body of Christ, but we are not given a license to replace the job of the Holy Spirit. Some believe the downfall of the denomination, any of them really, is in attempting to direct the spiritual growth of members by human measure and muscle.
We need to remember that what looks like sin to one person may not look like sin to another. Some see the novels SDAminister listed as sinful, some don't. Some see meat-eating as sin. Some don't. Within this denomination, Sabbath observance varies around the globe.
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Bonnie, I have to ask. What in your upbringing caused you to play such a game? I find it very curious. How did you know so much about church members sins? :hot:
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Bonnie, I have to ask. What in your upbringing caused you to play such a game? I find it very curious. How did you know so much about church members sins? :hot:
Because usually it was our sins the church members were concerned with and were diligent in pointing that out. All for our own good of course.
My brothers and I have a warped sense of humor, what can I say. It was our way of dealing with the "christain saints"
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Bonnie, I have to ask. What in your upbringing caused you to play such a game? I find it very curious. How did you know so much about church members sins? :hot:
Just so we are clear on this. It was not the upbringing by my parents that caused us to "play this game"
We went to church school. I did not like playing the proper games for little girls. I did not want to play with dolls,I preferred my brothers and their friends.
I always played softball and I had a teacher with a few brains. He allowed me to keep blue jeans at school and change at recess.
A husband and wife, who were very experienced at "cleansing the sin from the camp" took it upon themselves after catching me right in the act of playing softball, wearing jeans,and the worst of it,I was not like their daughter who was a proper young lady.
It resulted in a school board meeting, with the saints wanting to censure me and if that didn't work,have me removed
from the school. The teacher of course backed me and for his trouble he was not asked back the following year.
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Sabbath police! mercy! Y'all ain't got nothin' better to do than to police other's Sabbath activities. Come on now!!! Y'all can to better than this!
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Sabbath police! mercy! Y'all ain't got nothin' better to do than to police other's Sabbath activities. Come on now!!! Y'all can to better than this!
Now look, this is serious. The road to hades begins with small steps. No one knows what impact those Little Debbie's will have. It needs to be nipped in the bud.
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What do you think happened to the ones in the OT who were caught gathering kindling wood on the Sabbath?
Look it up and let me know. :wave:
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What do you think happened to the ones in the OT who were caught gathering kindling wood on the Sabbath?
Look it up and let me know. :wave:
Wasn't there a little more to it than someone just gathering sticks??
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i dont know what to make of you people wen i found this sight i thought i mite find good discusion and felowship with cristians
all of you are just at each others throtes but of course its in the name of god so its ok
i had been thinking it mite be nice to try to visit one of your churchs
now i dont think so
sick god must frown on you
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Every person's god frowns on everyone who disagrees with them.
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What do you think happened to the ones in the OT who were caught gathering kindling wood on the Sabbath?
Look it up and let me know. :wave:
Wasn't there a little more to it than someone just gathering sticks??
Don't you know? Haven't you heard? Hasn't anybody ever told you? We are to choose which parts of the Bible we will teach, believe in, adhere to, and enforce. We are not to take the entire Bible and use it as the infallible word of God. If we did that, all of the Pathfinders would have been stoned to death for picking up sticks on Sabbath, all of the women would have to leave town on that time of the month, we would be required to have our kids executed for the sin of rebellion, we would be required to kill people who don't convert, we would have to kill entire populations of nations who don't go along with our crusades and expansion...
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Not that any of the theological outrage matters to me, but I guess that McKee Bakeries would likely point out that a significant percentage of their revenues goes into sponsoring students through Adventist schools, and support for many Adventist outreach and educational projects, and wherever money comes from, it all spends the same. The matters you mention seem to all be issues of theological question as opposed to the questions of criminal activities and the problems with maliciously harming and lying about themselves and others people, that have plagued 3ABN. The only issue I would have with Ellsworth would stem from any support he might have given to the harming of people that 3ABN has done.
Perhaps it is symptomatic of what is wrong and why it was so easy for them to compromise and ignore Seventh-day Adventist principals when it expedites business interests...a good reason to believe that there is no place in the Seventh-day Adventist Chuirch for this ministry with the present administration!!!
The Lord cannot, and will not, bless this ministry in its blasphemy!!!
Gailon Arthur Joy
Gailon Arthur Joy
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Bonnie - Thank you for your explanation of your game. Makes sense now. I was fortunate to go to church school from 4th grade on and never met that type of "christian" at church that I remember. (or maybe I was perfect! :ROFL:)
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That was not my question Daryl. Do you agree with the position taken by SDA Minister and his POV as expressed in his opening paragraph. Do you think the view expressed by SDA Minister is what your church wants presented to the world on how the church views Sabbath observance?
3ABN and Danny Lee Shelton produce and market very aggressively a book called The Ten Commandments Twice Removed. The Fourth cammandment is very clear and this sponsorship breaches, in principal, that very clear principal.
It cannot be what we think, but rather what the Bible SAYS!!! The problem at Mckee is the lack of principal, and that is not only the Sabbath Issue!!!
And with what Edson knows of Danny Lee Shelton, if they have not punished and sued him, then Edson is a man completely compromised.
Gailon Arthur Joy
Gailon Arthur Joy
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i dont know what to make of you people wen i found this sight i thought i mite find good discusion and felowship with cristians
all of you are just at each others throtes but of course its in the name of god so its ok
i had been thinking it mite be nice to try to visit one of your churchs
now i dont think so
sick god must frown on you
Always blaming others is a bad habit, Michael.
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"You must be getting away from Jesus and His teachings and do not realize it" (5T 516).
So wrote Ellen White to Dudley Canright after he had written an article published in the Review advocating the reading of "Uncle Tom's Cabin, Robinson Crusoe, and such books." She also wrote a rebuttal to his article which appears as RH 11-09-86. Thus SDAminster has made a valid point about McKee promot6ing such material, if that in fact is being done.
There are enough aspects to this whole scandal that probably everyone (including those who see nothing wrong with such material) can agree that if Ellen White were alive today she would say the same sort of thing.
Now Canright had a major problem: He couldn't handle being corrected. Thus it wouldn't surprise me if Ellen White's letter to him and her article is part of the reason why he said " 'that he had come to a point where he no longer believed that the Ten Commandments were binding upon Christians and had given up the law, the Sabbath, the messages, the sanctuary, our position upon [the] United States in prophecy, the testimonies, health reform, the ordinances of humility' " (3Bio 360). On that basis he asked to have his name dropped, which occurred on Feb. 17, 1887.
There are people involved in this saga who have the same major problem. Danny and the board could have humbly acknowledged their errors, including how they handled the child molestation allegations against Tommy Shelton. Instead they chose to sue. That was wrong.
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Whether it be EGW or anyone else, I have a real problem with anyone who tries to ban the reading of literature in the name of religion or politics. That is the kind of thing done by the Taliban, the Nazis, Communism, Dark Age Catholicism, and every other group that has had a reason to keep their members in a state of intellectual darkness. We, as Adventists, have spoken out against the above groups for burning books and keeping their people from reading certain things and then we do the same thing. Do we have greater light now than Jesus did way back in his day? He made use of fiction in order to put points across.
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Whether it be EGW or anyone else, I have a real problem with anyone who tries to ban the reading of literature in the name of religion or politics. That is the kind of thing done by the Taliban, the Nazis, Communism, Dark Age Catholicism, and every other group that has had a reason to keep their members in a state of intellectual darkness. We, as Adventists, have spoken out against the above groups for burning books and keeping their people from reading certain things and then we do the same thing. Do we have greater light now than Jesus did way back in his day? He made use of fiction in order to put points across.
To date, yours is one of the most well-presented arguments I have read against the attack on the use of edifying literature. Where was a voice like yours when I was accepting an "F" on principle in my PUC English Literature course (my major, btw) because the books I was supposed to read were on EGW's banned list?
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Bonnie - Thank you for your explanation of your game. Makes sense now. I was fortunate to go to church school from 4th grade on and never met that type of "Christian" at church that I remember. (or maybe I was perfect! :ROFL:)
You must have not liked sports and wore jeans. That is a sin that can lead heaven knows where. I also went to church school.
It was one of those little games children play,my mother never knew. Had she known we would have known immediately what to do with us. When this couple and a couple of others would walk by my brothers and I we would begin singing softly, "When the saint's come marching in" We thought it hilarious .They knew they didn't like it,but could never make the connection and would just frown.
Most kids are pretty adept at coping. Might now be the prescibed way but...
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"You must be getting away from Jesus and His teachings and do not realize it" (5T 516).
You can't read any book other than EW,Bible and those that are recommended by EW. Seems I remember you can't play checkers,chess,any card game like Flinch,Rook,no bowling,no movies except those recommended by the church,Let's not forget the makeup for young women,seems we weren't to color our hair,after all God knew best and that is what he gave us, Not sure if jeans are allowed for women yet,but seems I have run into a few that think that is SIN with a big S.
We are to scout for any sin in the camp,except ours of course. Keep an eagle eye out for any sabbath breaker and plaster the name via the internet. No in between meal snacks, Those "Little Debbies" are far more important than they look. Let's not forgey divorce,allowed only if the abusive spouse committs physical adultry.
Wasn't it a cause for concern if a child did more than wade in the water? No swimming on sabbath. That was another that got my brothers and I in a lot of trouble. We played in the woods by our house. It had a great creek. When it was 95 degrees we would often spend sabbath afternoon in the creek,not wading.
That was another that got us in big serious trouble.
Can you list what is acceptable? As far as I see it is a mighty short list and one comprised of EW books and the bible
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Bonnie - Thank you for your explanation of your game. Makes sense now. I was fortunate to go to church school from 4th grade on and never met that type of "Christian" at church that I remember. (or maybe I was perfect! :ROFL:)
You must have not liked sports and wore jeans. That is a sin that can lead heaven knows where. I also went to church school.
It was one of those little games children play,my mother never knew. Had she known we would have known immediately what to do with us. When this couple and a couple of others would walk by my brothers and I we would begin singing softly, "When the saint's come marching in" We thought it hilarious .They knew they didn't like it,but could never make the connection and would just frown.
Most kids are pretty adept at coping. Might now be the prescibed way but...
Bonnie! How unhistorical Adventist of you! Sports? A girl wearing pants? Mercy! Lol!!! Sounds like you and your brothers were hilarious.
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Bonnie! How unhistorical Adventist of you! Sports? A girl wearing pants? Mercy! Lol!!! Sounds like you and your brothers were hilarious.
We had a lot of fun. Just made sure mom didn't catch us. The most fun was knowing they didn't like what we were doing but they couldn't quite put their finger on why. How can any adult find fault with "When The Saints come Marching In?
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Whether it be EGW or anyone else, I have a real problem with anyone who tries to ban the reading of literature in the name of religion or politics. That is the kind of thing done by the Taliban, the Nazis, Communism, Dark Age Catholicism, and every other group that has had a reason to keep their members in a state of intellectual darkness. We, as Adventists, have spoken out against the above groups for burning books and keeping their people from reading certain things and then we do the same thing. Do we have greater light now than Jesus did way back in his day? He made use of fiction in order to put points across.
She didn't call for a ban. It shouldn't take a ban.
Read what she actually wrote and tell me what specific concerns she had that you would have trouble with.
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To date, yours is one of the most well-presented arguments I have read against the attack on the use of edifying literature. Where was a voice like yours when I was accepting an "F" on principle in my PUC English Literature course (my major, btw) because the books I was supposed to read were on EGW's banned list?
It is sad that we haven't practiced what we preach. I recall the time I asked if there was a literature course I could take that didn't require the reading of works by pantheists, and I was told there were none.
We take the matter too lightly, too many of us. My how I devoured Star Trek books and shows, and then had temptations to become an atheist in high school because some of those Star Trek plots explained away the biblical concepts of God and Satan.
While researching the making of the atomic bomb, I was surprised to find that infidel books read at a young age led a number of the main contributing scientists to reject the Bible.
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She didn't call for a ban. It shouldn't take a ban.
Read what she actually wrote and tell me what specific concerns she had that you would have trouble with.
It seems to me if I remember right that EW did indeed read fiction. I will have to go look that up I guess
But if you are saying that the following quote indicates the total of what EW meant and it is "gospel" according to you or EW........They are air-castle builders, living in an unreal, an imaginary world. They become sentimental and have sick fancies
Among those I know,SDA or non-SDA I can't think of one that has read fiction and as a result have begun living in an unreal ,imaginary world or has developed sick fancies.
OTOH,I do know those that devote their time ,focus and energy into reading EW become some pretty mean spirited people,always correcting and preaching to those that do not share their viewpoint
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"You must be getting away from Jesus and His teachings and do not realize it" (5T 516).
...
Can you list what is acceptable? As far as I see it is a mighty short list and one comprised of EW books and the bible
Rather an absurd assertion. Would you like to try again?
There is a wealth of good reading out there that does not raise the concerns that Jesus testified by His Spirit through the prophet regarding.
According to this source, Spurgeon probably had similar concerns: http://books.google.com/books?id=u2I6TWXFEmQC&pg=PA438&lpg=PA438&dq=fiction+spurgeon (http://books.google.com/books?id=u2I6TWXFEmQC&pg=PA438&lpg=PA438&dq=fiction+spurgeon)
Probably a search could turn up some other major Christian leaders of the past who felt the same.
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It seems to me if I remember right that EW did indeed read fiction.
And what would that matter? Does that mean that since Peter denied Christ and lied, that we can deny Christ and lie?
Besides, the issue is not really over fiction.
Among those I know,SDA or non-SDA I can't think of one that has read fiction and as a result have begun living in an unreal ,imaginary world or has developed sick fancies.
Praise the Lord you don't know of anyone in that category. I truly wish I could say the same.
OTOH,I do know those that devote their time ,focus and energy into reading EW become some pretty mean spirited people,always correcting and preaching to those that do not share their viewpoint
Huh? Are you saying that people shouldn't read what Jesus testified by His Spirit through the prophet?
How many infidels say the same thing about reading the Bible?
Do you believe that Ellen White's writings are the result of the true biblical gift of the Spirit known as the gift of prophecy?
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I found a quote by the evangelist Charles Finney who headed up Oberlin College:
"10. Robbing God. Think of the instances in which you have misspent your time, squandering the hours which God gave you to serve Him and save souls, in vain amusements or foolish conversation, in reading novels or doing nothing; cases where you have misapplied your talents and powers of mind; where you have squandered money on your lusts, or spent it for things which you did not need, and which did not contribute to your health comfort, or usefulness. Perhaps some of you have laid out God’s money for tobacco. I will not speak of intoxicating drink for I presume there is no professor religion here that would drink it, and I hope there is none that uses that filthy poison, tobacco. Think of teachers, of religion using God’s money to poison themselves with tobacco!"
If the attitudes of today's Christian world are so different than those of yesteryear on such topics, one should wonder whether we are so further spiritually advanced than they, or whether they were so further spiritually advanced than we.
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Dwight Moody:
"We need not go to Japan, or to China, or to India, to find people with idols. I will venture to say we have not got to go a mile to find them. They may not bow down to the gods of Egypt, the gods of iron, stone and wood, that they have made with their own hands; but anything that comes between me and the God of heaven is an idol; anything that disturbs my communion with God is an idol. And I will venture to say there is many a professed child of God today who makes an idol of the card-table, who makes an idol of novels, of dancing, of the theater, of fashion, of self, of pleasure, of money. There are many who bow down to the golden calf today; and the reason why there is so little power in the church of God today is that we have got too many idols."
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Finney again:
"3. When there is a worldly spirit in the Church. It is manifest that the Church has sunk down into a low and backslidden state, when you see Christians conform to the world in dress, equipage, and “parties,” in seeking worldly amusements, and reading novels, and other books such as the world reads. It shows that they are far from God, and that there is great need of a revival of religion."
By the way, these quotes are not coming from the Bible or EW's books. I do read other things.
I even read court cases these days. Quite a few in fact.
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George Whitefield. Wasn't he the colleague of John and Charles Wesley?
"You must likewise forget your father’s house. “Hearken, O daughter, and consider, and forget thy father’s house.” You are not here to cast off all affections unto natural relations; but you must forget all relations, so as to be ready to forgo all their favor, when it standeth in competition with that of the Lord Jesus Christ: and do not let your carnal friends and relations hinder you from closing with, and espousing the Lord Jesus. I earnestly beseech you to suffer the loss of any thing, rather than to lose his favors; you must indeed forget your own people, that is, you must forget all your evil customs which you have learned in your father’s house, and forsake all your vain conversation, your reading of plays, novels, or romances; and you must keep from learning to sing the songs of the drunkard; for Christ, if you are his spouse, hath redeem you."
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John Wesley, founder of the Methodists:
"6. And even as to the hours assigned for study, are they generally spent to any better purpose? Not if they are employed in reading (as is too common) plays, novels, or idle tales, which naturally tend to increase our inbred corruption, and heat the furnace of our unholy desires seven times hotter than it was before? How little preferable is the laborious idleness of those who spend day after day in gaming or diversions vilely casting away that time the value of which they cannot know, till they are passed through it into eternity!"
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Rather an absurd assertion. Would you like to try again?
Let's see. No fiction because it will lead to sick fancies,living in an imaginary world.You really have to be careful with Black Beauty, Call of the Wild Old Yeller. Tom Sawyer sounds really bad pretty long list
You cannot play cards,Rook or Flinch,checkers and chess are out,limited sports,no roller skating where they play music,of course no movies,no TV.
wasn't it tennis that EW discouraged. Maybe in Australia.
I am kind of fresh out of ideas for adventist young people
There is a wealth of good reading out there that does not raise the concerns that Jesus testified by His Spirit through the prophet regarding.
You may happen to believe every word EW uttered is straight from God, I do not think so. If so God got it wrong a few times. Was God the one that told EW the dangers of their silly cinching their waist till they could barely breath.
Of course it is not healthy,but are you going to tell me that God told EW that babies would inherit wasp waists. Someone was wrong there.
Probably a search could turn up some other major Christian leaders of the past who felt the same.
Personally I do not care to look up. I don't consider every word they say inspired either. My children were all avid readers and I most have chosen reasonably well as not one lives in an imaginary world or suffers from sick fancies.
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"3. When there is a worldly spirit in the Church. It is manifest that the Church has sunk down into a low and backslidden state, when you see Christians conform to the world in dress, equipage, and “parties,” in seeking worldly amusements, and reading novels, and other books such as the world reads. It shows that they are far from God, and that there is great need of a revival of religion."
By the way, these quotes are not coming from the Bible or EW's books. I do read other things.
I even read court cases these days. Quite a few in fact.
Court cases can be quite interesting. I know during my son's litigation I got in the habit of reading many. I still find them interesting and what is really surprising is the people that have a record that pops up now and then.
I am not sure what this is to mean about worldly amusements. The way many instruct what EW said, almost everything except prayer,Bible reading EW's books is considered worldly
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George Whitefield. Wasn't he the colleague of John and Charles Wesley?
"You must likewise forget your father’s house. “Hearken, O daughter, and consider, and forget thy father’s house.” You are not here to cast off all affections unto natural relations; but you must forget all relations, so as to be ready to forgo all their favor, when it standeth in competition with that of the Lord Jesus Christ: and do not let your carnal friends and relations hinder you from closing with, and espousing the Lord Jesus. I earnestly beseech you to suffer the loss of any thing, rather than to lose his favors; you must indeed forget your own people, that is, you must forget all your evil customs which you have learned in your father’s house, and forsake all your vain conversation, your reading of plays, novels, or romances; and you must keep from learning to sing the songs of the drunkard; for Christ, if you are his spouse, hath redeem you."
Frankly if you are expecting me to follow the words of this man concerning this you will wait a long time.
but you must forget all relations, so as to be ready to forgo all their favor, when it standeth in competition with that of the Lord Jesus Christ: and do not let your carnal friends and relations hinder you from closing with, and espousing
Not likely. I have many relatives that have turned their back on the church and this type of reasoning is a good example of why. I would truly like to see them in the kingdom and a ignoring of them is not the way.
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John Wesley, founder of the Methodists:
"6. And even as to the hours assigned for study, are they generally spent to any better purpose? Not if they are employed in reading (as is too common) plays, novels, or idle tales, which naturally tend to increase our inbred corruption, and heat the furnace of our unholy desires seven times hotter than it was before? How little preferable is the laborious idleness of those who spend day after day in gaming or diversions vilely casting away that time the value of which they cannot know, till they are passed through it into eternity!"
And you believe who is spending their day in gaming or vile diversions.
Boy, you caught me in this one....and heat the furnace of our unholy desires seven times hotter than it was before
That Black beauty and Old Yeller was really an erotic book. You mentioned Star Trek. I very rarely have evr watch TV,but I did enjoy watching Star Trek. Maybe that is why I believe in space ships and Clingons
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Whether it be EGW or anyone else, I have a real problem with anyone who tries to ban the reading of literature in the name of religion or politics. That is the kind of thing done by the Taliban, the Nazis, Communism, Dark Age Catholicism, and every other group that has had a reason to keep their members in a state of intellectual darkness. We, as Adventists, have spoken out against the above groups for burning books and keeping their people from reading certain things and then we do the same thing. Do we have greater light now than Jesus did way back in his day? He made use of fiction in order to put points across.
To date, yours is one of the most well-presented arguments I have read against the attack on the use of edifying literature. Where was a voice like yours when I was accepting an "F" on principle in my PUC English Literature course (my major, btw) because the books I was supposed to read were on EGW's banned list?
Now we have clarity, Grandma and Bonnie...just plain rebels against the Spirit of Prophecy...no wonder you have a problem with identifying the truth!!! If your needle on the compass does not identify true north, you may just be headed the wrong direction.
Maybe, you should spend some time in the EG White Library and see if you can find true north!!! There is a sure path found in those pages and loads of foundational philosophy that will help you to see error with clarity.
Who, knows, Grandma, you might just figure out waht the TRUTH is.
Gailon Arthur Joy
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Now we have clarity, Grandma and Bonnie...just plain rebels against the Spirit of Prophecy...no wonder you have a problem with identifying the truth!!! If your needle on the compass does not identify true north, you may just be headed the wrong direction.
Maybe, you should spend some time in the EG White Library and see if you can find true north!!! There is a sure path found in those pages and loads of foundational philosophy that will help you to see error with clarity.
Who, knows, Grandma, you might just figure out what the TRUTH is.
Gailon Arthur Joy
No Gailon, what we have is a couple of people that have set themselves up as judge and jury. I certainly hope I have trouble identifying the truth of you and Bob. Such smugness. If you and I are on the same path, I definitely am headed in the wrong direction. If the canonization and exalting EW to near perfect status I have no interest in spending time there.
I know where my four sons and their families are on Sabbath morning. I know what they believe, but more importantly they know what they believe and why, even after having read the real evil books of Tom Sawyer,Black beauty,and Old Yeller. All were very athletic,played a lot of sports, even played Rook and Flinch. None have sick fancies and none live in an imaginary world. None ended up as gamblers
I also know many the age of our sons that were raised by parents who would mirror your beliefs. Only one family besides ours remained consistently in the church. A few have returned and have done so stating they do not want their children growing up hating the sound of EW's name,thinking everything a sin that might be fun.
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i dont know what your problem is. werent you the one somewhere else who was worried about convincing people to visit an sda church? you dont even know me. how can i have a hisotry of blaming someone else? im just an everage joe looking for some fellowship. guess i came to the wrong place.
i dont know what to make of you people wen i found this sight i thought i mite find good discusion and felowship with cristians
all of you are just at each others throtes but of course its in the name of god so its ok
i had been thinking it mite be nice to try to visit one of your churchs
now i dont think so
sick god must frown on you
Always blaming others is a bad habit, Michael.
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...My children were all avid readers and I most have chosen reasonably well as not one lives in an imaginary world or suffers from sick fancies.
You omitted "dwarfed in intellect". Or, would this apply?
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...My children were all avid readers and I most have chosen reasonably well as not one lives in an imaginary world or suffers from sick fancies.
You omitted "dwarfed in intellect". Or, would this apply?
"Dwarfed intellect" would be a state of intellect that those who try to keep people from reading and learning in areas where learning would threaten beliefs that are tenouos, try to keep people in. For the midieval Catholics is was basically anything written at all, for the Nazis it was anything Jewish or in any way educational in ways that would raise doubts about Naziism, for the Communists it is the news and anything else that shows the good side of capitalism, and for Adventism it is anything that expands the mind to the point that it searches beyond the limits that keep it boxed into the 19th century and make the person feel that any searching or studying beyond will relieve them of their mental capacity here on earth and their salvation beyond. When literature is banned in any way or form, it demonstrates quite conclusively that the one doing the banning has something to hide and is frightened of people finding things out. The surest way to drive me to read something is to tell me that I can't or shoudn't, or that you don't want me to.
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i dont know what to make of you people wen i found this sight i thought i mite find good discusion and felowship with cristians
all of you are just at each others throtes but of course its in the name of god so its ok
i had been thinking it mite be nice to try to visit one of your churchs
now i dont think so
sick god must frown on you
If you are worried about God's frowns you might want to consider thinking for yourself or doing a little more research than one little chat site where the great controversy between good and evil is being fought. If you want to join it, be prepared for a good cosmic battle, otherwise maybe you should go find some other site to whine about.
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well dont you people just have a high opinion of yhourselfs. you really think this is where the battle between good and evil is being played out? and nobody else matters? you and that quadroplegic guy are a real piece of work. im not interested in doing research. all i wanted was to find some friends who would be their for me. but this is what i find insted.
i dont know what to make of you people wen i found this sight i thought i mite find good discusion and felowship with cristians
all of you are just at each others throtes but of course its in the name of god so its ok
i had been thinking it mite be nice to try to visit one of your churchs
now i dont think so
sick god must frown on you
If you are worried about God's frowns you might want to consider thinking for yourself or doing a little more research than one little chat site where the great controversy between good and evil is being fought. If you want to join it, be prepared for a good cosmic battle, otherwise maybe you should go find some other site to whine about.
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You may happen to believe every word EW uttered is straight from God, I do not think so. If so God got it wrong a few times.
Don't be absurd. That isn't the issue. The issue is whether or not you believe that Jesus accurately testified by His Spirit through the prophet in inspired books, articles, and other types of messages.
For example, many professed Christians might say that the Bible is inspired, but then they will point to this part or that part that they think is wrong, such as the creation account. They are wrong when they do that.
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...My children were all avid readers and I most have chosen reasonably well as not one lives in an imaginary world or suffers from sick fancies.
You omitted "dwarfed in intellect". Or, would this apply?
"Dwarfed intellect" would be a state of intellect that those who try to keep people from reading and learning in areas where learning would threaten beliefs that are tenouos, try to keep people in. For the midieval Catholics is was basically anything written at all, for the Nazis it was anything Jewish or in any way educational in ways that would raise doubts about Naziism, for the Communists it is the news and anything else that shows the good side of capitalism, and for Adventism it is anything that expands the mind to the point that it searches beyond the limits that keep it boxed into the 19th century and make the person feel that any searching or studying beyond will relieve them of their mental capacity here on earth and their salvation beyond. When literature is banned in any way or form, it demonstrates quite conclusively that the one doing the banning has something to hide and is frightened of people finding things out. The surest way to drive me to read something is to tell me that I can't or shoudn't, or that you don't want me to.
Well, if I as the head of my home ban Playboy and Penthouse from being within my doors, do you think my kids would be justified in accusing me of being a Nazi or a Communist? Even if they were but 8 years old?
Obviously, nearly everyone in the world would agree that under certain circumstances and within certain spheres outright bans of certain literature are appropriate. And if outright bans are permissible, then cautions rather than bans regarding other literature should also be permissible.
I do recall that both Albert Einstein and Neils Bohr abandoned their religious faith through the reading of infidel literature when they were young.
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Don't be absurd. That isn't the issue. The issue is whether or not you believe that Jesus accurately testified by His Spirit through the prophet in inspired books, articles, and other types of messages.
For example, many professed Christians might say that the Bible is inspired, but then they will point to this part or that part that they think is wrong, such as the creation account. They are wrong when they do that.
You are being absurd. This has nothing to do with the topic. No one raised the issue of the bible being inspired or not.
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Well, if I as the head of my home ban Playboy and Penthouse from being within my doors, do you think my kids would be justified in accusing me of being a Nazi or a Communist? Even if they were but 8 years old?
Precise Bob, let's get back to the original issue,which was not pornography. Which was the reading of fiction and that according to what you believe any that read will develop sick fancies and live in an imaginary world.
Obviously, nearly everyone in the world would agree that under certain circumstances and within certain spheres outright bans of certain literature are appropriate. And if outright bans are permissible, then cautions rather than bans regarding other literature should also be permissible.
Stick to the topic
I do recall that both Albert Einstein and Neils Bohr abandoned their religious faith through the reading of infidel literature when they were young.
Yes I suppose my biggest fear with my children after reading the infidel books of Black beauty etc were it would lead to Playboy and have them live in an imaginary world.
edited to correct sentence
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How does all this recent discussion relate to this topic? :wave:
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Tihs is what the discussion was. Let's stick to what it was before you end up trying to prove that those that do not agree with you think porn and such should be allowed reading for children.
Re: Sabbath-breaking by another 3ABN Board Member
« Reply #21 on: October 24, 2008, 06:01:48 PM » Quote
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Worldy Associations
I noted this send-in offer for novels on the back of a Little Debbie product at the grocer’s:
Quote
“Young readers can experience the wonder of timeless stories from an early age. Each hardbound classic is filled with all the magic and excitement that made the original story a beloved masterpiece. The titles are: Heidi, Tom Sawyer, Black Beauty, The Secret Garden, and Treasure Island.” [Black Beauty is notable in that it is the autobiography of a horse].
[/quote]
But the SDA church teaches that:
“Novel and storybook reading are the greatest evils in which youth can indulge. Novel and love-story readers always fail to make good, practical mothers. They are air-castle builders, living in an unreal, an imaginary world. They become sentimental and have sick fancies. Their artificial life spoils them for anything useful. They are dwarfed in intellect, although they may flatter themselves that they are superior in mind and manners“. 3T 151
They are air-castle builders, living in an unreal, an imaginary world. They become sentimental and have sick fancies
Many of the people I know are avid readers,they certainly read true life books,but have many others they read.
Not a single one has sick fancies.
This,not porn or whether the bible is inspired. I do not believe that EW meant or made this as matter of being inspired. In your world people may develop sick fancies from reading fiction like Black Beauty or Tom Sawyer but not in the real world most people live in.
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How does all this recent discussion relate to this topic? :wave:
It was one of the sins of the owner of Little Debbie's.
Worldy Associations
I noted this send-in offer for novels on the back of a Little Debbie product at the grocer’s:
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How does all this recent discussion relate to this topic? :wave:
From this...
Worldy Associations
I noted this send-in offer for novels on the back of a Little Debbie product at the grocer’s:
“Young readers can experience the wonder of timeless stories from an early age. Each hardbound classic is filled with all the magic and excitement that made the original story a beloved masterpiece. The titles are: Heidi, Tom Sawyer, Black Beauty, The Secret Garden, and Treasure Island.” Black Beauty is notable in that it is the autobiography of a horse
But the SDA church teaches that:
“Novel and storybook reading are the greatest evils in which youth can indulge. Novel and love-story readers always fail to make good, practical mothers. They are air-castle builders, living in an unreal, an imaginary world. They become sentimental and have sick fancies. Their artificial life spoils them for anything useful. They are dwarfed in intellect, although they may flatter themselves that they are superior in mind and manners“. 3T 151
They are air-castle builders, living in an unreal, an imaginary world. They become sentimental and have sick fancies
This is not about porn except maybe in the mind of Bob
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How does all this recent discussion relate to this topic? :wave:
Daryl,
Quite a lot of people have noticed that <bonnie> is spending her nights and days on this forum. Advent Talk is her permanent address. We became members of this forum a few days apart, around the beginning of February 2008.
Since then, that is, during the past TEN MONTHS, I posted 61 messages, while she posted 1143 (ONE THOUSAND ONE HUNDRED AND FORTY THREE ) messages. Only a few of them, probably less than 3%, are related to the intended topics of the threads. All the other messages she posted are unrelated to the topics, uninformed, and irrelevant.
Eduard
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How does all this recent discussion relate to this topic? :wave:
Daryl,
Quite a lot of people have noticed that <bonnie> is spending her nights and days on this forum. Advent Talk is her permanent address.
Edward, Are you still so cranky? :ROFL: You certainly need something in your life except me to worry about.
[qoute] We became members of this forum a few days apart, around the beginning of February 2008.
Since then, that is, during the past TEN MONTHS, I posted 61 messages, while she posted 1143 (ONE THOUSAND ONE HUNDRED AND FORTY THREE ) messages. Only a few of them, probably less than 3%, are related to the intended topics of the threads. All the other messages she posted are unrelated to the topics, uninformed, and irrelevant. [/quote]
Maybe because you are not intelligent enough to make the connection, that's okay. Keep rattling on about my life
You have to understand, this is the only outlet for her obsessive-compulsive need to meddle in everybody's business. Please, be compassionate to her!
Oops, isn't this where precise bob wold come in and demand proof of that. Now whos life am I meddling in??
I thought I read somewhere that we are to engage in "respectful discussion" That must have been a joke, Right?.
Just so you don't get overly stressed about the time it appears I spend on here,I want you to know I did not logout last night and this morning it was of course still on the front page
Maybe this....I posted 61 messages, while she posted 1143 (ONE THOUSAND ONE HUNDRED AND FORTY THREE ) messages. is because I have only one name to post under.
You really need to get a life and quite being so obsessive-complusive about how I spend my time
Only a few of them, probably less than 3%, are related to the intended topics of the threads. All the other messages she posted are unrelated to the topics, uninformed, and irrelevant.
You sure spend a great deal of time monitoring my day.. Going thru all those posts must have taken up much of your valuable energy and time.
You need to quit obsessing on me and get a real life .
OTOH, you may want to speak to Bob as he was the one that introduced much of this.
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In case you missed this .
For respectfully discussing any issues and concerns pertaining to 3ABN
Seems you may have veered off track here a bit and made Bob's issue of fiction reading my going of topic.
Maybe Daryl can explain what he means by the above or who it may apply to.
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Bonnie,
I will not read anymore of your posts. You have become a stumblingbock to me. :wave:
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Bonnie,
I will not read anymore of your posts. You have become a stumblingbock to me. :wave:
Oh yes. Have to commend you,that is a new one.Might even work
Are you trying to tell me that those that call others trash,having no value are not a stumbling block>
Thats okay,please don't read
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For my own education here.could you please point out what has bothered you
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How does all this recent discussion relate to this topic? :wave:
Daryl,
What a great question! This recent discussion about what some deem "sin" and why they deem it so is based precisely on the issues raised in the OP that SDAminister opened with.
I believe that this topic and the ensuing discussion, out of a many of other topics here in the 3abn subforum, gives us an excellent opportunity to get to the brass tacks of the "Who-What-Where-Why-When-and How's behind this controversy about behavior deemed as "sin". I'm not talking about the obvious sins like pastoral abuse, but the ones that are "sins" according to what some perceive as SDA standards within the denomination.
As with all of the other discussion in this subforum, some tend to get a little overheated in their responses, but I do hope that you will allow this discussion to continue so that we can hash it out to a successfully clear conclusion, wherever that happens to be. :wave:
Oops, edited to repair sentence construction...
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You may happen to believe every word EW uttered is straight from God, I do not think so. If so God got it wrong a few times.
Don't be absurd. That isn't the issue. The issue is whether or not you believe that Jesus accurately testified by His Spirit through the prophet in inspired books, articles, and other types of messages.
For example, many professed Christians might say that the Bible is inspired, but then they will point to this part or that part that they think is wrong, such as the creation account. They are wrong when they do that.
Let's leave the discussion about the inspiration of Bible for the Theology subforum. The issue of the inspiration of EGW writings is entirely appropriate to discuss in this thread since SDAminister is basing the claims against McKee/Little Debbie on passages she has written.
You state that the issue is whether or not some believe that Jesus accurately testified by His Spirit through the prophet in inspired books, articles and other types of messages. Who could argue that Jesus would ever be inaccurate in His testimony? Of course He is never inaccurate, but was He always the inspiration for EGW's writings? Was everything she wrote down inspired and 100% accurate?
If all are accurate and should be the standards of this denomination, are you praying for and laboring with Gailon to show him that chess is just as dangerous and sinful as are the novels that SDAminister is criticizing McKee for promoting?
SDAminister condemned Mr. McKee for the commercials that McKee Foods runs to advertise their Little Debbies, calling the talking koala bear in one an "abomination", using for examples three YouTube videos and then asking "How is this Sharing Christ in the Marketplace?". are you going to challenge Gailon on how he is "Sharing Christ in the Marketplace?" when he is posting quite venomously to those who dare to question? What does EGW have to say about how we are to treat our fellow Christians and neighbors?
Testimonies for the Church, Volume Two, Pages 50 - 55 ~ Chapter 8. Evilspeaking:
Brother F has had the cause of God at heart, but he has felt too deeply, and has taken on many burdens which he should not have borne. He has suffered in health in this way. He has sometimes viewed matters in a strong light, and has been too earnest and anxious to have all see them just as he did; and because they were backward in doing so, he has felt nearly crushed. He feels to the depths, and is in danger of urging his views of things too strongly.
Sister F wants to be a Christian, but she has not cultivated discretion and true courtesy. She is of a very sanguine turn of mind, ardent and self-confident. She shows the rough part of her character, and has not appeared to advantage. She has moved from impulse, acting just as she felt, and sometimes her feelings have been much excited and strong. She has strong likes and dislikes, and has permitted this unfortunate trait in her character to develop itself, greatly to the detriment of her own spiritual advancement and to the injury of the church. She has talked too much and unwisely, just as she felt. This has had a strong influence upon her husband, and has at times led him to move from excitement of feeling, when if he had waited and looked at matters calmly and weighed them properly, it would have been better for himself and for the church. Nothing is gained by moving hurriedly, moving from impulse, or from strong feeling.
Sister F moves from impulse, and finds fault, and has had too much to say against her brethren and sisters. This will cause confusion in any church. If she could control her own spirit, a great victory would be gained. If she would seek the heavenly adorning, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which God, the Creator of the heavens and the earth, calls of great price, she would then be a real help to the church. If she would cherish the spirit of Christ, and become a peacemaker, her own soul would flourish, and she would be a blessing to the church wherever she might be located. Unless she is converted and an entire change is wrought in her, unless she educates herself to be slow to speak and slow to wrath, and cultivates true Christian courtesy, her influence will prove injurious, and the happiness of others connected with her will suffer. She manifests an independence which is a damage to her and alienates her friends. This independence has caused her much trouble and has wounded her best friends.
If those who had means were close in their deal with her husband, and did not favor him more than worldlings in business transactions, she has felt and talked, and aroused feelings of dissatisfaction where none previously existed. This is a selfish world at best. Many of those who profess the truth are not sanctified by it, and may not have a heart to make even a trifling variation in the prices of produce when dealing with a poor brother, sooner than they would with an able worldling. They do not love their neighbors as themselves. It would be more pleasing to God were there less selfishness and more disinterested benevolence.
As Sister F has seen a selfish spirit manifest in deal, she has committed a greater sin by feeling and talking in regard to the matter as she has. She has erred in expecting too much. The tongue has been truly an unruly member, a world of iniquity, set on fire of hell, untamed and untamable. Sister F has had a spirit of retaliation, manifesting by her deportment that she was offended. This was all wrong. She has cherished bitter feelings, which are foreign to the spirit of Christ. Anger, resentment, and all kinds of unkind tempers are indulged by speaking against those with whom we are displeased, and by reciting the errors and failings and sins of neighbors. The lustful desires are gratified.
Sister F, if you are grieved because your neighbors or friends are doing wrong to their own hurt, if they are overtaken in fault, follow the Bible rule. "Tell him his fault between thee and him alone." As you go to the one you suppose to be in error, see that you speak in a meek and lowly spirit; for the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God. The erring can be restored in no other way than in the spirit of meekness, gentleness, and tender love. Be careful in your manner. Avoid anything in look or gesture, word or tone, that savors of pride or self-sufficiency. Guard yourself against a word or look that would exalt yourself, or place your goodness and righteousness in contrast with their failings. Beware of the most distant approach to disdain, overbearing, or contempt. With care avoid every appearance of anger; and though you use plainness of speech, let there be no reproach, no railing accusation, no token of warmth but that of earnest love. Above all, let there be no shadow of hate or ill will, no bitterness or sourness of expression. Nothing but kindness and gentleness can flow from a heart of love. Yet all these precious fruits need not hinder you from speaking in the most serious, solemn manner, as though angels were directing their eyes upon you, and you were acting in reference to the coming judgment. Bear in mind that the success of reproof depends greatly upon the spirit in which it is given. Do not neglect earnest prayer that you may possess a lowly mind, and that angels of God may go before you to work upon the hearts you are trying to reach, and so soften them by heavenly impressions that your efforts may avail. If any good is accomplished, take no credit to yourself. God alone should be exalted. God alone has done it all.
You have excused yourself for speaking evil of your brother or sister or neighbor to others before going to him and taking the steps which God has absolutely commanded. You say: "Why, I did not speak to anyone until I was so burdened that I could not refrain." What burdened you? Was it not a plain neglect of your own duty, of a thus saith the Lord? You were under the guilt of sin because you did not go and tell the offender his fault between you and him alone. If you did not do this, if you disobeyed God, how could you be otherwise than burdened unless your heart was hardened while you were trampling the command of God underfoot, and in your heart hating your brother or neighbor? And what way have you found to unburden yourself? God reproves you for a sin of omission in not telling your brother his fault, and you excuse and comfort yourself by a sin of commission by telling your brother's faults to another person! Is this the right way to purchase ease--by committing sin?
All your efforts to save the erring may be unavailing. They may repay you evil for good. They may be enraged rather than convinced. What if they hear to no good purpose, and pursue the evil course they have begun? This will frequently occur. Sometimes the mildest and tenderest reproof will have no good effect. In that case the blessing you wanted another to receive by pursuing a course of righteousness, ceasing to do evil and learning to do well, will return into your own bosom. If the erring persist in sin, treat them kindly, and leave them with your heavenly Father. You have delivered your soul; their sin no longer rests upon you; you are not now partaker of their sin. But if they perish, their blood is upon their own head.
Dear friend, an entire transformation must take place in you, or you will be weighed in the balance and found wanting. The church at -----, especially talking women, have a lesson to learn. "If any man [or woman] among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain." Many will be weighed in the balance and found wanting in this matter of so great importance. Where are the Christians who walk by this rule? who will take God's part against the evilspeaker? who will please God, and set a watch, a continual watch, before the mouth, and keep the door of the lips? Speak evil of no man. Hear evil of no man. If there be no hearers, there will be no speakers of evil. If anyone speaks evil in your presence, check him. Refuse to hear him, though his manner be ever so soft and his accents mild. He may profess attachment, and yet throw out covert hints and stab the character in the dark.
Resolutely refuse to hear, though the whisperer complains of being burdened till he speak. Burdened indeed! with a cursed secret which separateth very friends. Go, burdened ones, and free yourselves from your burden in God's appointed way. First go tell your brother his fault between you and him alone. If this fail, next take with you one or two friends, and tell him in their presence. If these steps fail, then tell it to the church. Not an unbeliever is to be made acquainted with the slightest particular of the matter. Telling it to the church is the last step to be taken. Publish it not to the enemies of our faith. They have no right to the knowledge of church matters, lest the weakness and errors of Christ's followers be exposed.
Those who are preparing for the coming of Christ should be sober and watch unto prayer, for our adversary, the devil, goeth about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour; whom we are to resist steadfast in the faith. "He that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile: let him eschew evil, and do good; let him seek peace, and ensue it. For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and His ears are open unto their prayers."
Of course I know that Gailon went to Danny sort of privately, first because I've read the emails of their exchanges along with the MANY others who were in the GAJ email loop at the time. Gailon did not approach Danny in the manner that EGW counseled Sister F. to do. The writings above are undeniably clear in their counsel on how to treat others. Is her counsel accurate, inspired, an SDA standard that makes evilspeaking to others a sin?
Is it a safe procedure to use a manner that is condemned by the Spirit of Prophecy to call sin by its right name? Is it morally right to treat our neighbors in a way other than how Jesus wants us to treat them?
Is it appropriate to condemn Mr. McKee for not conducting his business affairs in accordance to EGW standards while Gailon and others are not holding to those standards?
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Who put grandma in charge of what is ok to post in what thread?
Let's leave the discussion about the inspiration of Bible for the Theology subforum. The issue of the inspiration of EGW writings is entirely appropriate to discuss in this thread since SDAminister is basing the claims against McKee/Little Debbie on passages she has written.
You state that the issue is whether or not some believe that Jesus accurately testified by His Spirit through the prophet in inspired books, articles and other types of messages. Who could argue that Jesus would ever be inaccurate in His testimony? Of course He is never inaccurate, but was He always the inspiration for EGW's writings? Was everything she wrote down inspired and 100% accurate?
If all are accurate and should be the standards of this denomination, are you praying for and laboring with Gailon to show him that chess is just as dangerous and sinful as are the novels that SDAminister is criticizing McKee for promoting?
SDAminister condemned Mr. McKee for the commercials that McKee Foods runs to advertise their Little Debbies, calling the talking koala bear in one an "abomination", using for examples three YouTube videos and then asking "How is this Sharing Christ in the Marketplace?". are you going to challenge Gailon on how he is "Sharing Christ in the Marketplace?" when he is posting quite venomously to those who dare to question? What does EGW have to say about how we are to treat our fellow Christians and neighbors?
Testimonies for the Church, Volume Two, Pages 50 - 55 ~ Chapter 8. Evilspeaking:
Brother F has had the cause of God at heart, but he has felt too deeply, and has taken on many burdens which he should not have borne. He has suffered in health in this way. He has sometimes viewed matters in a strong light, and has been too earnest and anxious to have all see them just as he did; and because they were backward in doing so, he has felt nearly crushed. He feels to the depths, and is in danger of urging his views of things too strongly.
Sister F wants to be a Christian, but she has not cultivated discretion and true courtesy. She is of a very sanguine turn of mind, ardent and self-confident. She shows the rough part of her character, and has not appeared to advantage. She has moved from impulse, acting just as she felt, and sometimes her feelings have been much excited and strong. She has strong likes and dislikes, and has permitted this unfortunate trait in her character to develop itself, greatly to the detriment of her own spiritual advancement and to the injury of the church. She has talked too much and unwisely, just as she felt. This has had a strong influence upon her husband, and has at times led him to move from excitement of feeling, when if he had waited and looked at matters calmly and weighed them properly, it would have been better for himself and for the church. Nothing is gained by moving hurriedly, moving from impulse, or from strong feeling.
Sister F moves from impulse, and finds fault, and has had too much to say against her brethren and sisters. This will cause confusion in any church. If she could control her own spirit, a great victory would be gained. If she would seek the heavenly adorning, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which God, the Creator of the heavens and the earth, calls of great price, she would then be a real help to the church. If she would cherish the spirit of Christ, and become a peacemaker, her own soul would flourish, and she would be a blessing to the church wherever she might be located. Unless she is converted and an entire change is wrought in her, unless she educates herself to be slow to speak and slow to wrath, and cultivates true Christian courtesy, her influence will prove injurious, and the happiness of others connected with her will suffer. She manifests an independence which is a damage to her and alienates her friends. This independence has caused her much trouble and has wounded her best friends.
If those who had means were close in their deal with her husband, and did not favor him more than worldlings in business transactions, she has felt and talked, and aroused feelings of dissatisfaction where none previously existed. This is a selfish world at best. Many of those who profess the truth are not sanctified by it, and may not have a heart to make even a trifling variation in the prices of produce when dealing with a poor brother, sooner than they would with an able worldling. They do not love their neighbors as themselves. It would be more pleasing to God were there less selfishness and more disinterested benevolence.
As Sister F has seen a selfish spirit manifest in deal, she has committed a greater sin by feeling and talking in regard to the matter as she has. She has erred in expecting too much. The tongue has been truly an unruly member, a world of iniquity, set on fire of hell, untamed and untamable. Sister F has had a spirit of retaliation, manifesting by her deportment that she was offended. This was all wrong. She has cherished bitter feelings, which are foreign to the spirit of Christ. Anger, resentment, and all kinds of unkind tempers are indulged by speaking against those with whom we are displeased, and by reciting the errors and failings and sins of neighbors. The lustful desires are gratified.
Sister F, if you are grieved because your neighbors or friends are doing wrong to their own hurt, if they are overtaken in fault, follow the Bible rule. "Tell him his fault between thee and him alone." As you go to the one you suppose to be in error, see that you speak in a meek and lowly spirit; for the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God. The erring can be restored in no other way than in the spirit of meekness, gentleness, and tender love. Be careful in your manner. Avoid anything in look or gesture, word or tone, that savors of pride or self-sufficiency. Guard yourself against a word or look that would exalt yourself, or place your goodness and righteousness in contrast with their failings. Beware of the most distant approach to disdain, overbearing, or contempt. With care avoid every appearance of anger; and though you use plainness of speech, let there be no reproach, no railing accusation, no token of warmth but that of earnest love. Above all, let there be no shadow of hate or ill will, no bitterness or sourness of expression. Nothing but kindness and gentleness can flow from a heart of love. Yet all these precious fruits need not hinder you from speaking in the most serious, solemn manner, as though angels were directing their eyes upon you, and you were acting in reference to the coming judgment. Bear in mind that the success of reproof depends greatly upon the spirit in which it is given. Do not neglect earnest prayer that you may possess a lowly mind, and that angels of God may go before you to work upon the hearts you are trying to reach, and so soften them by heavenly impressions that your efforts may avail. If any good is accomplished, take no credit to yourself. God alone should be exalted. God alone has done it all.
You have excused yourself for speaking evil of your brother or sister or neighbor to others before going to him and taking the steps which God has absolutely commanded. You say: "Why, I did not speak to anyone until I was so burdened that I could not refrain." What burdened you? Was it not a plain neglect of your own duty, of a thus saith the Lord? You were under the guilt of sin because you did not go and tell the offender his fault between you and him alone. If you did not do this, if you disobeyed God, how could you be otherwise than burdened unless your heart was hardened while you were trampling the command of God underfoot, and in your heart hating your brother or neighbor? And what way have you found to unburden yourself? God reproves you for a sin of omission in not telling your brother his fault, and you excuse and comfort yourself by a sin of commission by telling your brother's faults to another person! Is this the right way to purchase ease--by committing sin?
All your efforts to save the erring may be unavailing. They may repay you evil for good. They may be enraged rather than convinced. What if they hear to no good purpose, and pursue the evil course they have begun? This will frequently occur. Sometimes the mildest and tenderest reproof will have no good effect. In that case the blessing you wanted another to receive by pursuing a course of righteousness, ceasing to do evil and learning to do well, will return into your own bosom. If the erring persist in sin, treat them kindly, and leave them with your heavenly Father. You have delivered your soul; their sin no longer rests upon you; you are not now partaker of their sin. But if they perish, their blood is upon their own head.
Dear friend, an entire transformation must take place in you, or you will be weighed in the balance and found wanting. The church at -----, especially talking women, have a lesson to learn. "If any man [or woman] among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain." Many will be weighed in the balance and found wanting in this matter of so great importance. Where are the Christians who walk by this rule? who will take God's part against the evilspeaker? who will please God, and set a watch, a continual watch, before the mouth, and keep the door of the lips? Speak evil of no man. Hear evil of no man. If there be no hearers, there will be no speakers of evil. If anyone speaks evil in your presence, check him. Refuse to hear him, though his manner be ever so soft and his accents mild. He may profess attachment, and yet throw out covert hints and stab the character in the dark.
Resolutely refuse to hear, though the whisperer complains of being burdened till he speak. Burdened indeed! with a cursed secret which separateth very friends. Go, burdened ones, and free yourselves from your burden in God's appointed way. First go tell your brother his fault between you and him alone. If this fail, next take with you one or two friends, and tell him in their presence. If these steps fail, then tell it to the church. Not an unbeliever is to be made acquainted with the slightest particular of the matter. Telling it to the church is the last step to be taken. Publish it not to the enemies of our faith. They have no right to the knowledge of church matters, lest the weakness and errors of Christ's followers be exposed.
Those who are preparing for the coming of Christ should be sober and watch unto prayer, for our adversary, the devil, goeth about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour; whom we are to resist steadfast in the faith. "He that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile: let him eschew evil, and do good; let him seek peace, and ensue it. For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and His ears are open unto their prayers."
Of course I know that Gailon went to Danny sort of privately, first because I've read the emails of their exchanges along with the MANY others who were in the GAJ email loop at the time. Gailon did not approach Danny in the manner that EGW counseled Sister F. to do. The writings above are undeniably clear in their counsel on how to treat others. Is her counsel accurate, inspired, an SDA standard that makes evilspeaking to others a sin?
Is it a safe procedure to use a manner that is condemned by the Spirit of Prophecy to call sin by its right name? Is it morally right to treat our neighbors in a way other than how Jesus wants us to treat them?
Is it appropriate to condemn Mr. McKee for not conducting his business affairs in accordance to EGW standards while Gailon and others are not holding to those standards?
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Don't be absurd. That isn't the issue. The issue is whether or not you believe that Jesus accurately testified by His Spirit through the prophet in inspired books, articles, and other types of messages.
For example, many professed Christians might say that the Bible is inspired, but then they will point to this part or that part that they think is wrong, such as the creation account. They are wrong when they do that.
You are being absurd. This has nothing to do with the topic. No one raised the issue of the bible being inspired or not.
You suggested that an inspired writer's inspired works could contain error, and I pointed out that skeptics do the same thing with the Bible. Since you raised the point, I was on topic.
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This is not about porn except maybe in the mind of Bob
Why twist what I was saying? There was a question about whether bans of or concerns about certain literature are appropriate, and I was merely pointing out that everyone agrees that there are times when such are appropriate.
I never said that all would or should agree about what the bans or concerns should be.
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You suggested that an inspired writer's inspired works could contain error, and I pointed out that skeptics do the same thing with the Bible. Since you raised the point, I was on topic.
To me you come awfully close of putting EW on par with the bible ,"with skeptics do same with bible"
We are not talking of those that do not believe the bible as written.
Not quite Bob.It was more I do not believe every word that EW wrote is inspired. I also think there is error as in
Women cinching their waists so tight they could barely breath because of fashion and a baby inheriting a "wasp waist"
There is not a grain of truth in that.
While unhealthy and not a wise thing to do,the baby would not inherit such.
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Why twist what I was saying? There was a question about whether bans of or concerns about certain literature are appropriate, and I was merely pointing out that everyone agrees that there are times when such are appropriate.
I never said that all would or should agree about what the bans or concerns should be.
Didn't twist what you were saying. Bringing in the porn issue while talking about Black beauty and Tom Sawyer was twisting the topic. As to bans from one religious denomination to try to control what others do is not appropriate .To try to enofrce or condemn those that do not believe every word written by EW is inspired is not appropriate.
Can you tell me, do you play chess,checkers?
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Let's leave the discussion about the inspiration of Bible for the Theology subforum. The issue of the inspiration of EGW writings is entirely appropriate to discuss in this thread since SDAminister is basing the claims against McKee/Little Debbie on passages she has written.
Sorry. One of the best ways to show the absurdity of some positions about the Spirit of prophecy is to show how those same positions destroy the credibility of the Bible. Thus, the discussion of both go together at times.
You state that the issue is whether or not some believe that Jesus accurately testified by His Spirit through the prophet in inspired books, articles and other types of messages. Who could argue that Jesus would ever be inaccurate in His testimony? Of course He is never inaccurate, but was He always the inspiration for EGW's writings? Was everything she wrote down inspired and 100% accurate?
Grocery lists? No. But we aren't talking about grocery lists.
The same question gets asked about the Bible. take a look at how God kept Balaam and Nathan straight, preventing them from giving a wrong message to Balak and David.
There was an incident like that of Nathan regarding the possible closure of Southern Publishing. Thus God ensured that Ellen White correctly conveyed Jesus' testimony.
Of course I know that Gailon went to Danny sort of privately, first because I've read the emails of their exchanges along with the MANY others who were in the GAJ email loop at the time. Gailon did not approach Danny in the manner that EGW counseled Sister F. to do. The writings above are undeniably clear in their counsel on how to treat others. Is her counsel accurate, inspired, an SDA standard that makes evilspeaking to others a sin?
Do you think that Danny should be dealt with the same way that Sr. F was?
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Women cinching their waists so tight they could barely breath because of fashion and a baby inheriting a "wasp waist"
There is not a grain of truth in that.
While unhealthy and not a wise thing to do,the baby would not inherit such.
And how would you know?
Why not quote the actual statement, and then explain how you know that there is no possible way such could happen.
Do the children of drunkards inherit defects? Is that via genetics or some other mechanism?
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Why twist what I was saying? There was a question about whether bans of or concerns about certain literature are appropriate, and I was merely pointing out that everyone agrees that there are times when such are appropriate.
I never said that all would or should agree about what the bans or concerns should be.
Didn't twist what you were saying. Bringing in the porn issue while talking about Black beauty and Tom Sawyer was twisting the topic. As to bans from one religious denomination to try to control what others do is not appropriate .To try to enofrce or condemn those that do not believe every word written by EW is inspired is not appropriate.
Can you tell me, do you play chess,checkers?
It wasn't twisting the topic. It was making a point regarding bans or concerns regarding certain literature.
No, I don't play chess or checkers.
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It might be serious....for them, but it is also seriously none of our business. We are not the Sabbath Police. Just let me repeat something I say often of this type of forum:
When we ourselves, are in a "mature" relationship with God, then we trust Him to handle His own children. We know that He knows where they are pheysically, spirituall, and mentally. We cannot know all of that so we lack the information and authority to make such judgements on another's life. IOW, God is GoD ALL by Himself, He don't need nobody else. You dont' even readn anywhere He has the angels doing such a despicable thing.
The owners of Little Debbie are just as answerable to God as anyone else, but they are not answerable to us about their spiritual walk with God. If what you[general] are doing on Sabbath is looking around to see hwat everyone else is doing on Sabbath, then you have a whole lot more to worry about in your own life. Your worrying about what the Little Debbie's man did on the Sabbath is a mote, when you looking to even see what he is doing on the Sabbath is a HUGE beam in your eye.
it doesn't even matter if the team is SDA which they are probably not, neither will they ever be as NASCAR races on Sabbath all the time, right? Is it the the man goes to the races on the Sabbath? Little Debbie's sponsoring a Nascar team is the same advertisement as somone else's buisness being in the yellow pages, or begin googled, or on a billboard on the Sabbath. I don't see anybody with a buisness asking that their buisness not be advertised in any paper or billboard on Sabbath...what is the difference? Those out there who are prosperous enough in your business to run a local TV add, are you requesting that your add not be run on Sabbath? Are any of you buisness owners rejecting business where your advertisement was viewed or found on Sabbath? It makes no difference when they see the advertisement, you take the business, do you not? So, just like while every other SDA business owner is attending services(because You all don't have church, but that's another topic for another day a long, long time from now) on Sabbath while their print, media, web advertising is still working for them, So is Little Debbie's. Same difference........
***PLEASE NOT: THE USE OS THE WORD "YOU" IN THIS POST IS GENERAL AND DOES NOT MEAN IN ANY MEMBER IN PARTICULAR. I WANTED TO MAKE THAT CLEAR AS MY POST IS IN ANSWER TO bONNIE'S***[/color]
Now look, this is serious. The road to hades begins with small steps. No one knows what impact those Little Debbie's will have. It needs to be nipped in the bud.
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As this thread has gone off in various different directions, I am closing down this thread for now while we determine whether or not it can be re-opened again.
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I am re-opening this thread with a note that posts are to pertain to the topic of this thread.
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I am re-opening this thread with a note that posts are to pertain to the topic of this thread.
Daryl, it would be most helpful if you would clarify which of the posts in this thread you feel have gone in different directions.
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How does all this recent discussion relate to this topic? :wave:
Daryl,
Quite a lot of people have noticed that <bonnie> is spending her nights and days on this forum. Advent Talk is her permanent address. We became members of this forum a few days apart, around the beginning of February 2008.
Since then, that is, during the past TEN MONTHS, I posted 61 messages, while she posted 1143 (ONE THOUSAND ONE HUNDRED AND FORTY THREE ) messages. Only a few of them, probably less than 3%, are related to the intended topics of the threads. All the other messages she posted are unrelated to the topics, uninformed, and irrelevant.
Eduard
Not quite sure what your point is. This is an open forum. As long as the discussion follows the forum rules, people can post as much as they want. Some might view your 61 postings as excessive. If Bonnie posts irrelevant messages it is up to the forum administrators/moderators to bring thing back on topic.
SDAminister
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Of course I know that Gailon went to Danny sort of privately, first because I've read the emails of their exchanges along with the MANY others who were in the GAJ email loop at the time. Gailon did not approach Danny in the manner that EGW counseled Sister F. to do. The writings above are undeniably clear in their counsel on how to treat others. Is her counsel accurate, inspired, an SDA standard that makes evilspeaking to others a sin?
Is it a safe procedure to use a manner that is condemned by the Spirit of Prophecy to call sin by its right name? Is it morally right to treat our neighbors in a way other than how Jesus wants us to treat them?
Is it appropriate to condemn Mr. McKee for not conducting his business affairs in accordance to EGW standards while Gailon and others are not holding to those standards?
1) I exchanged many e-mails with Danny (some of which were protected as off the record) that YOU have never been privy to...shocker, huh!!! Mahta Hari had limited distibution, you see. Sorry about that, but you turned easilly!!!
2) To pull out specific counsel that addresses a specific situation within a church is contrary to the principles of Matthew 18 and we could go on. YOU are the most egregious in your failure to follow the very clear instructions of part three: TAKE IT TO THE CHURCH!!! YOU, GRANDMA, ARE ALL MERCY AND NO JUSTICE...a bit out of balance in my BIBLE!!!
3) Your unbalanced view of mercy and justice is simply un-biblical...shocker, huh?
And shall we end with the premise that Grandma is definitely above reproach!!! She has never called anyone to task in other than a "loving way"!!! If one believes this sales job, then I have the Brooklyn Bridge for sale, complete with toll gates!!! Any takers??? Cheap if you buy by midnight!!!
Love ya Grandma, but your unbalanced view of christianity results in a premise that we all can be saved "IN OUR SINS" and all are above reproach, regardless of how much and how often we fleece the sheep!!! Did you get fleeced Grandma??? Or are you fleecing???
Gailon Arthur Joy
I know, no cookies for me!!! Did you ever notice what the LORD ordered the Israeli's to do...some would call it,
dare I say it...ETHNIC CLEANSING...they even eliminated Grandma's, can you imagine that!!!
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I really do not have the time to point to specific posts, however, any posts that do not address the name of this topic can be considered off-topic.
I am re-opening this thread with a note that posts are to pertain to the topic of this thread.
Daryl, it would be most helpful if you would clarify which of the posts in this thread you feel have gone in different directions.