Advent Talk
General Category => General Discussions => Topic started by: Bob Pickle on March 10, 2009, 09:42:04 PM
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http://www.atoday.com/fundamentalist-creationist-gets-lukewarm-student-reception-la-sierra-university (http://www.atoday.com/fundamentalist-creationist-gets-lukewarm-student-reception-la-sierra-university)
Erv Taylor appears in the above piece to be promoting evolution, and appears to be saying that evolution is actively taught at La Sierra.
I would hope this is not true. If it is true, I hope someone at AToday has a talk with Erv, and I hope the appropriate church leaders clean up La Sierra. This is no time in earth's history to be dabbling with apostasy, skepticism, and unbelief.
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April 30, 2009
> Pastors Jan Paulsen, Don C. Schneider, Ricardo Graham
> General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists
> 12501 Old Columbia Pike
> Silver Spring, MD 20904
>
> Dear Pastors Paulsen, Schneider, and Graham,
>
> Greetings in the name of Jesus Christ. Like each of you, I
> am an ordained pastor of the worldwide Seventh-day Adventist
> Church. I write these words with my heart on full
> display--from pastor to pastor. This letter concerns the
> teaching of evolution at La Sierra University. While I am
> not a formally trained scientist, I am, however, familiar
> with many of the apologetic, philosophical, and theological
> issues surrounding the theories of naturalistic evolution. I
> have made this an area of special study in my life and
> ministry. So, I feel both comfortable and qualified to speak
> to the issue, especially in its ecclesiastical
> ramifications.
>
> It is a matter of incontestable fact that naturalistic
> evolution is being taught at La Sierra University. This is
> not in and of itself a bad thing. Evolution should be taught
> at our denominational universities. But it should be taught
> as a competing and inimical worldview to the biblical
> worldview. We need our young people to know what it is they
> are up against, yes, but when naturalistic evolution is
> taught as fact or as the preferred and normative worldview,
> then we can be sure that the enemy has breached our lines.
>
> There is no point in equivocating. I have seen the class
> materials with my own eyes. Frankly, I think every
> Seventh-day Adventist deserves to see them. Our people need
> to know what is happening. Many of them have heard various
> rumblings, but being the conscientious, confiding, and
> hopeful people they are, they have generally assumed the
> very best. We are making capital of their trust.
>
> In 2003 I preached a two-week evangelistic meeting on the
> Loma Linda University campus. The event was student-led and
> university-sponsored. Many students from La Sierra
> University attended those meetings, and I personally visited
> with many of them. They told me what was being taught in
> some of their science classes. I shall never forget the
> looks and questions of unadorned incredulity that I
> witnessed among those students. I have talked to many more
> since. What should I do? Should I say something? Should I
> just attend a non-SDA school??Do our leaders know about
> this??How come these people are allowed to teach at a
> Seventh-day Adventist University??These young people, and
> many others like them, are justifiably nonplussed. Frankly,
> I share their confusion!
>
> What deeply concerns me is that the faith of many students,
> who look up to their Adventist professors as more than just
> academic instructors, but also as spiritual leaders, is
> being undermined. Jesus' words in Luke 17:1, 2 about
> causing one of these little ones to stumble carry
> inestimable weight, and they should be reason enough to
> propel us to responsible action. Brethren, what are we doing
> and allowing? Will not God hold us accountable in our
> respective spheres for what happens on our watch?
>
> I am aware, of course, that the church's governmental
> structure gives institutions like La Sierra University a
> necessary degree of administrative freedom. This is a good
> and wise arrangement. But this freedom, surely, is not
> synonymous with virtually unaccountable autonomy. La Sierra
> University is, after all, a denominational university. If
> the board has not yet adequately addressed this matter, then
> doesn't that evince a kind of complicity, if not
> outright mismanagement and denominational disloyalty? I
> genuinely ask, at what point is La Sierra University's
> board accountable and answerable to you men and the levels
> of church government that you represent? When, if ever, can
> someone step in and save our children and the institutions
> they attend?
>
> Governing and administrative structures are not the church.
> The people are the church. The governing and administrative
> structures are the scaffolding of the church. Scaffolds are
> for building and strengthening a thing; they are not the
> thing itself. But what if some are using the scaffolding to
> tear down the very church they were commissioned and created
> to build up? What then? I genuinely want to know. Where does
> the buck stop?
>
> Perhaps you feel that your hands are tied by policy and
> protocol. But surely they cannot be tied completely. What
> should I, as a church pastor, do if someone is teaching
> doctrine that undermines the church's biblical positions
> in one of my Sabbath School classes? Wouldn't it be
> expected of me, the pastor--shepherd--of the flock, to
> address it? To ask this question is to answer it. Of course,
> I would work through the Sabbath School council and the
> church board, but you can be sure that I would deal with the
> problem. My conference president, to say nothing of my Lord,
> would surely hold me in contempt
>
> if I told him lamely that my hands were tied, no?
>
> Furthermore, the greater the errancy, the greater the
> urgency. As even a cursory analysis plainly reveals, few
> doctrines are at greater philosophical odds with Seventh-day
> Adventism than naturalistic evolution, the arguments of
> well-meaning theistic evolutionists notwithstanding. Our
> Magna Carta is Revelation 14:6-12. If naturalistic evolution
> is true, Creation is cremated, the Sabbath is sabotaged, and
> our very name is neutered. What becomes of Scripture? And of
> our unique eschatology? We are not talking about bongo
> drums, wedding bands, and Christmas trees here.
>
> If our hands are tied, then surely we must let an
> unfaltering love for God, for His Word, and for His young
> people dash these fetters into so many deserved pieces! We
> must do something. You must do something.
>
> Who knows but that you have come to your positions for such
> a time as this. My ministry places me in somewhat of a
> unique situation in the world church. In partnership with
> the Central California Conference, I run ARISE, a mission
> training school that has seen hundreds of young people over
> the last seven years. I also have the privilege of preaching
> regularly on 3ABN and the Hope Channel. Too, I travel all
> over the world holding evangelistic meetings and preaching
> at camp meetings, youth conferences, weeks of prayer, etc. I
> genuinely feel that I have my finger on the pulse of the
> average lay person in the Seventh-day Adventist church the
> world over. Especially the young people ages 15 to 30. I can
> say with unblinking confidence that God is working in His
> church! Praise Him!
>
> I just arrived home from the Youth Mission Congress in
> Frankfurt, Germany. Over 1600 young people attended the
> meetings. Night after night I preached the Adventist
> message--I preached Christ! The theme chosen for the
> congress was Follow the Bible, and what an indescribable joy
> it was to see, at the end of my last sermon, hundreds and
> hundreds of young people streaming forward. All of them had
> personal decision cards in their hands. A beautiful,
> five-foot-tall wooden Bible had been constructed for just
> this moment. On the side of the Bible was a slot designed to
> receive the decision cards the young people clutched in
> their surrendered hands. One by one, each placed his or her
> card in the Bible. The symbolism was rich and thrillingly
> profound. It was impossible to not be moved at a fundamental
> level as each eager young person placed their decision, and
> thus their life in that wooden Bible. My translator openly
> wept at the sight. We will follow the Bible, they were each
> saying. All over the world, God's people--and in
> particular, it seems, His young people--are saying We will
> follow the Word--the Living Word, Jesus, and the Written
> Word, the Bible.
>
> God has entrusted us with these young people. They are His.
> He has given us His wise counsel to raise up institutions of
> learning to educate, equip, and empower them. To build them
> up.
>
> But what do we do when one of our institutions turns from
> this inestimably important responsibility, a responsibility
> that is fraught with eternal significance and involves the
> souls of those Jesus died to save? This is what I want to
> know.
>
> And so do many, many others.
>
> I thank each of you for your time, and, in advance, for
> your thoughtful responses.
>
> Sincerely,
> David Asscherick
> Director, ARISE
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Several years ago I heard a friend in the geographic local of Berrien Springs, and a former student of Andrews, say that evolution has been proven scientifically without a doubt; the editor/publisher of the official church paper of the Pacific Union said the same in 2001.
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It seems to be a subject discussed frequently on SDAnet.com
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Several years ago I heard a friend in the geographic local of Berrien Springs, and a former student of Andrews, say that evolution has been proven scientifically without a doubt; the editor/publisher of the official church paper of the Pacific Union said the same in 2001.
Do you know what kind of evolution? Things do evolve and change and that still works with creationism (God's creation), so is this the kind of "evolving" that is going around or being discussed? I find it very hard to bite on that our schools would teach the full form version of evolution (verses creationism).
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I think the general idea from both sources was that the Biblical account of creationism was passe and had been disproved scientifically.
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Do you know what kind of evolution? Things do evolve and change and that still works with creationism (God's creation), so is this the kind of "evolving" that is going around or being discussed? I find it very hard to bite on that our schools would teach the full form version of evolution (verses creationism).
Absolutely, it's hard to bite on. It seems absolutely preposterous.
A number of months ago we were reading two books, Diamondola and Diamondola and Aram. They were church workers in the Middle East. According to the first book, Diamondola at the end of WWI actually died and was raised from the dead by a pastor in Turkey. Diamondola also accompanied a president of our work there when he tried to help Armenian Adventists who were forced to go on death marches toward and into the Syrian desert.
The second book is about her life after she married Aram. They had a daughter who married Lee Greer, Jr., and a grandchild also named Lee. I decided I'd try to see if I could locate any of these relatives of Diamondola and Aram.
9 May 2008; Report from the San Diego Adventist Forum Conference: Creation Care and Sustainability; By Jared Wright (http://www.spectrummagazine.org/blog/2008/05/09/report_san_diego_adventist_forum_conference_creation_care_and_sustainability)
Early on that article refers to "Lee F. Greer, Ph.D., Professor of Evolutionary Biology at La Sierra University." I wonder what Diamondola would think of that title if she were alive today?
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9 May 2008; Report from the San Diego Adventist Forum Conference: Creation Care and Sustainability; By Jared Wright (http://www.spectrummagazine.org/blog/2008/05/09/report_san_diego_adventist_forum_conference_creation_care_and_sustainability)
Early on that article refers to "Lee F. Greer, Ph.D., Professor of Evolutionary Biology at La Sierra University." I wonder what Diamondola would think of that title if she were alive today?
I wasn't the only one or the first one to wonder about that title. Clifford Goldstein was the first to comment on the article (see comments below the article at the above link):
"and Lee F. Greer, Ph.D., Professor of Evolutionary Biology at La Sierra University."
Teaching "evolutionary biology" at a, ahem, SDA institution?
Tell the SDA church isn't, in some places, sick.
Posted by: Clifford Goldstein (not verified) | 10 May 2008 at 2:34
Cliff quickly got accused of being shallow, and responded:
Elaine--
Rather than call me shallow and other names, why not ask our own on-the-payroll SDA "evolutionary biologist" yourself what he believes. Or better yet, ask him what he teaches in the classroom.
Posted by: Cliff Goldstein (not verified) | 10 May 2008 at 2:13
Then followed extended comments by Aage Rendalen, who left the church over Ford and was in the Collegedale area the same time Cliff was in the early 1980's. He appears to be defending the teaching of evolution.
Another comment from Cliff:
Alex--
Jesus also said, "In vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men" and if evolution isnt "a commandment of men," nothing is.
Evolution is apostasy from Jesus the Creator and Redeemer, not from Ellen White, who by the way called belief in evolution "disguised infidelity." I agree.
I'm beginning to wonder: Is there any worldly teaching out there, ANY? that Chrisians might find appalling enough to not try and incorporate it into their faith once it becomes du jour? I'm seriously beginning to doubt it. If so called "Christians" can find a way to incorporate evolution into their so called "faith" then I suppose nothing's off limits, huh?
"Sick," I think, is too kind of a word for it, actually.
Posted by: Cliff Goldstein (not verified) | 11 May 2008 at 1:23
If you want to read more of the comments of Cliff and other creation believers, as well as the comments of former and/or pseudo Adventists pushing evolution, just go to the above link and read the comments.
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Lastly, go to http://www.lasierra.edu/academics/bulletin.html (http://www.lasierra.edu/academics/bulletin.html) and check out the academic bulletin. It states the following:
BIOL 113 General Biology III (4)
Introduction to plant biology, including photosynthesis, evolution, transport, nutrition, reproduction, and environmental responses. Additionally includes basic ecological principles and processes and behavioral ecology.
prereqisite: BIOL 111, 112
BIOL 467 Herpetology (4)
Identification, evolution, distribution, and life history of amphibians and reptiles. Three class hours per week and one three-hour laboratory or the equivalent per week.
Prerequisite: BIOL 111, 111L, 112, 112L, 113, 113L
BIOL 477 Vertebrate Natural History (4)
An evolutionary approach to the morphology, physiology, behavior, and ecology of major vertebrate groups with special emphasis given to the vertebrates of southern California. Treats the question of how members of different vertebrate groups live their lives, and critiques scientific hypotheses as to how these different life strategies evolved. The course is designed to engage students in the scientific thought process required to go from the observed to the theoretical. Weekend field trips will be taken to different regions of southern California. Three class hours per week and one three-hour laboratory or the equivalent per week
Prerequisite: BIOL 111, 111L, 112, 112L, 113, 113L
I could not find any biology classes described as being "A creationist approach to ...."
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While I was searching for "Lee Greer," I also came across the following:
Daniel solidly anchors the pre-Kingdom Judgment in Covenant time within the final 'week' of the 70 sabbatical 'weeks' not with any other time (Dan. 7-9; Rev. 11-14 by allusion follow the same; Hebrews 4:12-16; 12:22-24; etc. throughout the NT). Likewise based on Daniel, the NT repeatedly links the commencement of the pre-Advent Judgment with Christ's death and ascension to God's right hand in the 1st century CE, not with the 19th century. (See Appendix 4 below, as well as the texts and discussion in the section above, The pre-Advent Judgment and the Scroll).
http://www.jesusinstituteforum.org/Rev4-5HCE.html (http://www.jesusinstituteforum.org/Rev4-5HCE.html)
In “Debunking ‘the context problem’” (Adventist Review, 24 October 2002), Clifford Goldstein implies broadly that those (including loyal and conscientious Seventh-day Adventists) who have come to a different understanding of Daniel 8:14 than the traditional one have invented a “context problem.” He asserts that we don’t understand the Hebrew concept of justice and judgment, and that we reject the pre-Advent judgment. None of the above is correct.
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Pre-Advent judgment. Yes, we embrace it because it is Biblical. The pre-Advent judgment convened at Calvary2 and extends to Advent (Ps. 110; John 12:31-33; 16:11; Rom. 3-4; Rev. 4-5; 6-7; 11; 12-14; Hebrews 4:11-16; 9-10; 12:22-24; I Pet. 4:17; I Tim. 5:24, etc.).
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As Seventh-day Adventist Christians we are committed to a personal Second Advent, God’s eternal Covenant Law and holy Sabbath, the Three Angels’ messages, the non-immortality of the soul, and the vindication of the sanctuary.
http://www.jesusinstituteforum.org/Afriendlyresponse-Dan814.html (http://www.jesusinstituteforum.org/Afriendlyresponse-Dan814.html)
The last sentence quoted above does not appear to be either honest or correct, in my opinion. Since the 1st angel's message includes the announcement that the pre-advent judgment has begun in 1844 at the end of the 2300 days of Daniel 8:14, and since Mr. Greer above is quite clear that he does not believe the pre-advent judgment commenced in 1844, he had publicly repudiated part of the three angels' messages.
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Lastly, from http://www.frcforum.org/index2.php?option=com_content&do_pdf=1&id=33 (http://www.frcforum.org/index2.php?option=com_content&do_pdf=1&id=33) I read, "Lee F. Greer, III, is currently completing a PhD in molecular, developmental and evolutionary Biology at Loma Linda University."
This is all particularly strange to me since when I was at the La Sierra University Church in 1998, Ron Carter was on the platform. Ron was a pastor who went back and got a biology degree. He taught classes on creation and evolution as well as in biology in the 1980's at Southern. He opposed evolutionary theory. I assume that when he was on staff teaching (presumably) biology at La Sierra he still opposed it. If that assumption is correct, then La Sierra's biology department may have undergone a drastic paradigm shift in recent years.
By the way, if we refer to creationist scientists as creationist scientists, then we should also refer to evolutionary scientists as evolutionary scientists. Some evolutionists would like to pretend that a creationist cannot be a scientist, and using terminology that makes an evolutionist a particular type of scientist helps to dispel that bogus propaganda.
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If you want to read more of the comments of Cliff and other creation believers, as well as the comments of former and/or pseudo Adventists pushing evolution, just go to the above link and read the comments.
Would you call the current publisher/editor of the Pacific Union Recorder, the official SDA church paper for the Pacific Union, a former and/or pseudo Adventist? (He was definitely pushing evolution.)
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Perhaps that was a poor choice of wording on my part.
But it does raise the question, at what point is an Adventist not an Adventist? If an Adventist claims to be an atheist, are they still an Adventist?
It is a serious thing to deny what the Bible, Genesis, and the 4th commandment clearly and unequivocally teach regarding God creating the world in 6 days.
"Infidelity prevails to an alarming extent, not in the world merely, but in the church. Many have come to deny doctrines which are the very pillars of the Christian faith. The great facts of creation as presented by the inspired writers, the fall of man, the atonement, and the perpetuity of the law of God, are practically rejected, either wholly or in part, by a large share of the professedly Christian world" (GC 582-583).
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Perhaps that was a poor choice of wording on my part.
But it does raise the question, at what point is an Adventist not an Adventist? If an Adventist claims to be an atheist, are they still an Adventist?
It is a serious thing to deny what the Bible, Genesis, and the 4th commandment clearly and unequivocally teach regarding God creating the world in 6 days.
"Infidelity prevails to an alarming extent, not in the world merely, but in the church. Many have come to deny doctrines which are the very pillars of the Christian faith. The great facts of creation as presented by the inspired writers, the fall of man, the atonement, and the perpetuity of the law of God, are practically rejected, either wholly or in part, by a large share of the professedly Christian world" (GC 582-583).
I am starting to read some about this (in the links provided) but haven't gotten far enough yet...so I am going to ask this here - and it will sound much like my question before (in a reply to Artiste but not just for her to answer). Are they teaching the type of evolution that removes creation by God? I realize this may be a subject tied to many other subjects which might have different views or takes on what this or that means, but, simply, has creation by God been abandoned in these teachings or are they talking about the evolution (all is not bad) that has taken place. i.e. we were once 15 ft tall and lived 900 + years, we don't now for many actual reasons besides just saying "sin". So, as I need to do my own research, I would love it if some of the differences were simply stated? Maybe one of the links above will answer my question and I just haven't gotten to it yet...
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I think you've asked a good question. Teaching from an evolutionary approach a biology class doesn't refer to "micro-evolution." It refers to run-of-the-mill evolution.
Consider this from the link at the top of this thread, http://www.atoday.com/fundamentalist-creationist-gets-lukewarm-student-reception-la-sierra-university (http://www.atoday.com/fundamentalist-creationist-gets-lukewarm-student-reception-la-sierra-university):
As an institution functioning within the Christian tradition, as expected, most students approach their understanding of the contemporary world from a theistic perspective and thus hold the view that God is responsible for the ultimate origin of the natural world. In this sense, all Christians are "creationists" and thus, also in this sense, it would be expected that Adventist Christians would adhere to that view as well.
In popular contemporary discussions, the word "creationism" has acquired a connotation that has severely narrowed its meaning to describe a belief that the world and/or all of its life forms were created in the relatively recent past (less than 6000-10,000 years) in seven literal, 24-hour days and that there has been a even more recently, a world-wide Flood. This more restrictive understanding of creationism has been adopted by some fundamentalist-oriented Protestant denominations and the fundamentalist wings of others.
Think about what he is saying above. He's saying that all Christians are creationists, even if they believe in evolution over millions of years.
He's also saying that belief in a 6-literal-day creation 6000 years ago is an extreme view. That's radical. It's heresy. It's unbiblical. And Ellen White called it "disguised infidelity."
Those are quotes from an article reporting alleged negative reaction to Sean Pitman's presentations at La Sierra. Yet Sean believes and teaches that the earth has been here maybe millions of years, and that life was created here 6000 years ago. I think he also teaches that the sun was here before Day 4. I don't see how any Adventist can liken Sean's positions to something ultra-conservative.
Incidentally, I do believe that the sun and moon were created on Day 4, and that the heavens, earth, sea, and all that in them is were created during a literal six days.
Someone pointed out to me that the same theories by which the Precambrian (layers below fossil layers) is dated is used to date the various fossil-bearing strata. Perhaps part of our problem today with evolution is that some of us accepted the idea that maybe the Precambrian layers are billions of years old, and that opened the door to using the same methods of dating on fossil bearing strata.
I don't share that to criticize Sean. I'm just pointing out how extreme the problem is when a creationist who allows for an ancient earth and parts of Gen. 1 to not mean what they say gets bashed by the executive publisher of a journal that uses the trademark "Adventist" in its name, bashed for upholding a creation of life on this planet 6000 years ago, bashed for believing in Noah's Flood.
And now next week AToday will feature contrary book reviews by Cliff Goldstein and Erv Taylor regarding a book on dinosaurs by an Adventist creationist attorney named Read. The reviews were announced as going to be contrary. In what way? It will be interesting to see. Methodology the author used? Or conclusions the author arrived at?
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The president of La Sierra University, Randal Wisbey, has responded to David Asscherick's letter. You can read his response at http://www.atoday.com/President+of+LSU+Responds+to+Atheistic+Evolution+Allegations (http://www.atoday.com/President+of+LSU+Responds+to+Atheistic+Evolution+Allegations).
Unfortunately, Wisbey missed a golden opportunity by not denying that evolution is being taught as fact at La Sierra. He denied that atheistic evolution is being taught, but never denied that evolution is being taught. And Asscherick never said that La Sierra was teaching atheistic evolution.
David C. Read expressed surprise that Wisbey said, "As an institution of higher education, a Seventh-day Adventist university provides an excellent setting for examining evolutionary process - a subject that is foundational to the modern biological and behavioral sciences." Read stated, "I would have expected the Wisbey response to be a smarmy, vague, non-denial, and it is. I would not have expected Wisbey to openly endorse Darwinism, as he has in the 7th paragraph of the letter." And, "I am a bit surprised, however, that the president of an Adventist college would give Darwinism a full-throated endorsement in an open letter intended to be read by the laity and administrators alike."
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How strange this thread I just came on to. Could not sleep so clicked on this topic that I have not seen before. The strange part is that my husband and I were just discussing this on our own today.
It is a strange topic that has been in my own personal understanding discussed back and forth with my husband and heard a preacher give his own personal thoughts. They conclude that maybe something was here before creation in some sort.
It took me years and years of reading 1st page of Creation over and over and over and then following all references. Finally 5-6 years now it is finally instilled quite plain. You can possibly see some scripture that if you want to believe that something was here, rock, etc, etc , you might conclude. But whether it appears like it or not in writing English. I read it better and weigh it word for word and sometimes even laying it out visually, like on felt boards to finally see exactly the meaning. I did this with the creation story as I am never satisfied with indecision of how it was.
Without adding to or taking away. I discovered or was shown and it seemed much opened up in the understanding that I am quite satisfied with. I discovered that nothing was there except mist. A dark black hole of mist. Not even air until a firmament (space, air, a heaven)was made. It says The mist was parted and a "firmament" (or space was made with mist on the top and mist below). So I do gather without adding or taking away that mist was there. Now dry earth appeared. all this was spoken and it was. I cannot believe now any other way.
I hate to tell the stupidity of what took me so long to get this. But again, it is my nature to do it and do it and do it until I get a square fact. A fact that matches without doubt and finally jumped out with just a misunderstanding of one word.
I find one thing though with situations and people. When one wants to believe a theory of their own they can usually find it and twist scripture until it comes out their way of thought.
I have done this also with the Trinity or the Godhead and the only thing that I disagreed ever with M Finley is that questions about being able to understand the Godhead. I agree that the mystery of "How the Trinity" is possible can never be known-- but the inner working of it can and it opened up great insight of how marvelous the whole Bible opens up to the most incredible workings of God and the separate entity's of the Godhead and yet ONE GOD. Invisible, visible. audio.
I have taken over years all the quotes of EGW and Bible verses put them all in order in summary that had any thing to do with the Father, Son and Holy Spirit and the workings of the Trinity is the most incredible way to know God. It took years to find the most inquisitive questions that I had to know. Our minds will always be closed to His mystery of "being" but his works and Love and How being with His people and creation he has portrayed before our eyes or told from scripture. The rest is faith and belief. I am so amazed that he gives such satisfaction and rest of belief in His Word. I lack the right words to explain.
It seems these days that college is no longer for a place to learn professional employment only, but the best place where satan can come and make complete liberals out of some of the best. What better place for him to work. The young students. The professors in the most Liberal colleges have brought America to it's knees. Away from God. I just read the letter addressed by David A.
It's funny how an opinion derives from Conservative views. It happened with me when I saw DA wear on TV while he was preaching a seminar a couple of years ago when he came out with some sort of Catholic garb type dress over pants. I did not like the appearance at all. I did not get good vibe of this at all and did not understand an Adventist doing this or looking like a priest.
Well, said enough in the middle of the night Hmm it's almost morning. So as I read all this that is going on over the threads I see that Adventists have their work cut out for them as we are still seemingly divided on the Creation. and then the 144,000, Money pits and several other issues still after all that has been done to clear the way for us. How sad. Our last messenger is almost a thing of the past now, misunderstood or forgotten.......
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One of the last two comments to the AToday posting of Wisbey's letter (http://www.atoday.com/content/president-lsu-responds-atheistic-evolution-allegations#comment-2988) states the following:
Here at CUC we have had the majority of the science faculty on the side of theistic evolution for many years. I believe the administration has tried at certain times to purge the problem, but haven’t been successful. The leadership seems to be confused or blinded as to what has been going on, and does not really try to investigate the matter to find out. The teachers themselves try to keep their true evolutionary stance/agenda hidden from school administrators and denominational accreditation committees, but even a cursory reading of handout/textbook materials from certain classes would reveal the theistic evolutionary beliefs of the teachers. One of the deceptive ways these men keep their true views hidden from the public is that they often call themselves creationists. But the fact is they believe that God used evolution to create, rather than creating instantaneously as the Word of God teaches. So they are not really creationists at all, but theistic evolutionists.
That's a pretty serious accusation. I would hope it isn't true, because I would hope that one could get an Adventist education at an Adventist school.
From the first paragraph I see that "CUC" is not Columbia Union College.
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A friend in charge of pastoral training in one of the world divisions assures me that most theologians in our Church are firm believers in the 6-day creation which is our official stand and teaching.
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I'd like to encourage everyone to go to http://www.educatetruth.com/ (http://www.educatetruth.com/), click the petition link, and sign the petition.
If you add comments when you sign the petition, make them all one paragraph, whether long or short. Adding a line break in the comments seems to cause those comments to be grayed out. It must be a problem with the petition software.
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Here is a copy of my post raising a few questions on the same topic.
I can't remember if I posted to this thread before...sounds familiar, though.......Ok so we just tell one side of the story for fear if we hear all sides, we will not choose "the truth" in and of ourselves, we will get confused, etc. It might surprise you know that this is also the reasoning on the JWs who believe that down to not allowing their members to even attend other churches.
Our end-time doctrine teaches that we will be persecuted for our faith. Way before we get to water boarding, there will be some attempt at reasoning, etc. If we don't believe we can stand some other teachings learned on a voluntary basis, how are we going to stand in the end? I believe the danger is not teaching that there are others schools of thought, and what is our biblical counter to each(is any, cuz this is not always the case, much to our chagrin). That work much better. I believe we do our children/members a disservice by sending them out.....unarmed......
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The issue is not the teaching of other views such as evolution, but the teaching of evolution as fact and truth in opposition to the idea that God created the world in six actual days.
I appreciated John M. Fowler's letter to the editor of the Review in I think the most recent issue. He stated clearly that upholding the teaching of a six-day creation is not optional for our pastors and teachers. When evolution is presented, the teachers need to bring the students back to Bible truth.
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I went to an Adventist school that taught creationist theory, and stirictly adhered to traditional Adventist doctrine in the most conservative fashion. Statistically a much greater percentage of the graduates from that school have not only left the church, but left Christianity entirely, than La Sierra.
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George, I tend to believe that this is generational...beginning to Baby Boomers. When you present something as total truth to us, it had better be total truth. We cannot find some fault in your teaching, and then you have no answer for the inaccuracies found.
With Adventism, as well as other religions, we have settled for conformity, teaching in our schools, encouraging it in our churches. It ismuch easier not to have a ot of free-thinking folks with questions running around. The problem is that the inaccuracies in our teachings hit them in them face the moment they step outside that "controlled" environment, and "we just have to have faith" is not always the answer. In fact it is most often not the answer. The other unfortunate consequence is that people often make real life decsions based on information taught them as total truth. Far too many have found that they have simply missed out on extraordinary once in a life time opportunities.
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Good points. Very good points.
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Under "There is HOPE" you will find an announcement of a creation weekend at Loma Linda
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Since the subject of the teaching of evolution at La Sierra seems to still be going on I thought I'd post a few thoughts. For those who might think I have no experience or education with which to approach this subject I hold a Bachelor of Science Degree in Technology with a concentration in Bio-Medical Electronics. Therefore I have some understanding of the scientific method.
The very foundation of old-earth evolutionary theory does not stand up to the rigors of true scientific testing. That is the supposed age of the rocks and the fossils. Let me briefly outline how rocks and fossils are dated.
Since fossils are only found in sedimentary rock and sedimentary rock can't be dated the fossils are dated approximately by dating over and under lying layers of igneous (volcanic) rock. Igneous rock, according to theory, can be dated by measuring the ratio of a mother radioactive isotope and its daughter isotope. Briefly speaking this method assumes the mother isotope decays into the daughter isotope at a known and linear rate.
Here are the problems with this method. I will use uranium/lead as an example although there are other combinations.
1. It assumes that when the rock was extruded from the volcano there was no lead in the sample, only uranium. This can't be proven scientifically since no one was around to measure the ratio when the rock was extruded. In fact volcanic rocks from Mt. St. Helens measured at 3,000 years old three years after the 1980 eruption.
2. It assumes that the uranium decays at a known linear rate. Again this can't be demonstrated scientifically because the amount of time we have been able to measure the ratio is less than two hundred years; only a drop in a bucket compared to the millions of years it is supposed to measure.
3. It also assumes there has been no contamination from above by either mother or daughter isotope and no leaching out of either into lower layers. This can be demonstrated to be unlikely since both isotopes are water soluble under certain conditions.
When it comes to Carbon 14 dating (organic matter) the problems are even more obvious. For Carbon 14 dating to work the amount of Carbon 14 in the atmosphere must be stable. In fact there is more Carbon 14 in the atmosphere today than there was a hundred years ago. Therefore Carbon 14 dating doesn't work either.
I have studied a lot more on the subject but there isn't really room here for more. Do a Google search on the dating methods I have mentioned for more information.
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I am concerned by the term "most"...any pastor or ordained minister in the Seventh-day Adventist Church that does not unreservedly subscribe to "ALL" the Fundemental Beliefs has a DUTY to surrender his credentials and find and attend a church that has their belief system.
There is no place in the Laodicean Church for hypocrisy and the sacred tithe should not be used to sustain any ordained minister that does not unreservedly believe the entire Fundemental Beliefs.
In the alternative, they should be purged and denied fellowship in the brotherhood of the Faith.
Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter
A friend in charge of pastoral training in one of the world divisions assures me that most theologians in our Church are firm believers in the 6-day creation which is our official stand and teaching.
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Mr. Pickle,
Erv IS ATODAY and the name is a misnomer, they are not Adventists today, yesterday or tomorrow.
Maybe it is time to open a Save-LaSierra.com site???
Or how about SaveAToday??? or how about both???
Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter
http://www.atoday.com/fundamentalist-creationist-gets-lukewarm-student-reception-la-sierra-university (http://www.atoday.com/fundamentalist-creationist-gets-lukewarm-student-reception-la-sierra-university)
Erv Taylor appears in the above piece to be promoting evolution, and appears to be saying that evolution is actively taught at La Sierra.
I would hope this is not true. If it is true, I hope someone at AToday has a talk with Erv, and I hope the appropriate church leaders clean up La Sierra. This is no time in earth's history to be dabbling with apostasy, skepticism, and unbelief.
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And since when did "The Theory of evolution" acheive such an elevated standing when there are so many missing links and it fails so many "scientific" tests???
Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter
Several years ago I heard a friend in the geographic local of Berrien Springs, and a former student of Andrews, say that evolution has been proven scientifically without a doubt; the editor/publisher of the official church paper of the Pacific Union said the same in 2001.
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I will simply state that Mr Greer has clearly abrogated Adventism, the Seventh-day Sabbath and the entire Fundemental Beliefs...simply put, he is not a Seventh-day Adventist and should be put through the Matthew 18 process. If he is not repentant then he MUST be disfellowshipped.
Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter
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because they fill a seat in a pew does not make them a seventh-day Adventist and we would clearly be better of if they would simply take theior stand for truth or error and act accordingly. Where is the integrity in filling a pew for social purposes and deny their Savior and the Faith?
They need to go get their own pew and show some integrity. I applaud those who recognized their non-interest in the faith and took a clear step to seperate from the brotherhood of Faith.
I have pure contempt for those who cling to a paycheck and a pension and live a hypocrisy, just as much as I have contempt for Danny Lee Shelton, et al. There is no difference between these traitors in the Faith and hypocrits such as Danny Lee Shelton.
Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter
I went to an Adventist school that taught creationist theory, and stirictly adhered to traditional Adventist doctrine in the most conservative fashion. Statistically a much greater percentage of the graduates from that school have not only left the church, but left Christianity entirely, than La Sierra.
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"FAITH" is the entire answer!!! You either have Faith or you do not...no Faith, you cannot cling to the unique message of the Seventh-day Adventist Church...Faith and Study are connected...study false theology and erroneous teachings and you become what you read. Study and cling to the Bible and the "lesser light" and Faith will become absolute and Resolute. The beauty of the interlocking message and theology, when properly studied, brings absolute Faith in the Bible and the Spirit of Prophecy and the Saviour that gave us this special message and we must cling resolutely to that Faith lest we be on the outside looking in!!!
The Bereans found the answer..."study to show theyself approved..." and you are what you study!!!
If you lack FAITH, you need to promptly change your lifestyle and immerse yourself in the message given to the Seventh-day Adventist church lest your very sould be at stake!!!
There are troubling times ahead and anyone who reads their Bible and The spirit of Prophecy recognizes where we are and where we are headed...now we need to dedicate even more time studying those specail messages put one precept upon another and asking God's divine leadership as we study that we be not turned aside from the Faith...this is quickly moving to the time of Jacobs Trouble and FAITH WILL BE THE KEY TO VICTORY.
Either Find and Have FAITH or recognize just how sandy the soil is that we stand upon and know that one cannot withstand the storm ahead.
ANd we should return to our foundational "Yours in the Blessed Faith"!!!
Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter
George, I tend to believe that this is generational...beginning to Baby Boomers. When you present something as total truth to us, it had better be total truth. We cannot find some fault in your teaching, and then you have no answer for the inaccuracies found.
With Adventism, as well as other religions, we have settled for conformity, teaching in our schools, encouraging it in our churches. It ismuch easier not to have a ot of free-thinking folks with questions running around. The problem is that the inaccuracies in our teachings hit them in them face the moment they step outside that "controlled" environment, and "we just have to have faith" is not always the answer. In fact it is most often not the answer. The other unfortunate consequence is that people often make real life decsions based on information taught them as total truth. Far too many have found that they have simply missed out on extraordinary once in a life time opportunities.
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Since fossils are only found in sedimentary rock and sedimentary rock can't be dated the fossils are dated approximately by dating over and under lying layers of igneous (volcanic) rock.
Thanks for that tidbit. I was unaware of that.
Erv IS ATODAY ....
My understanding is that he isn't anymore. He's still there, but he isn't executive publisher.
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I went to an Adventist school that taught creationist theory, and stirictly adhered to traditional Adventist doctrine in the most conservative fashion. Statistically a much greater percentage of the graduates from that school have not only left the church, but left Christianity entirely, than La Sierra.
Can you give the name of the school and the reference for the statistics.
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A friend in charge of pastoral training in one of the world divisions assures me that most theologians in our Church are firm believers in the 6-day creation which is our official stand and teaching.
I've heard otherwise, but that would apply only to the North American Division.
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Erv IS ATODAY ....
My understanding is that he isn't anymore. He's still there, but he isn't executive publisher.
And Clinton is no longer President anymore, but when Bill Speaks, they listen!!! When ERV speaks, everyone at AToday listens!!!
Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter
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I forgot to mention that ERV TAYLor is still on the Editorial Team and is a Blog Editor as well. He is an ever present force and one committed to undermining the Faith.
Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter
Erv IS ATODAY ....
My understanding is that he isn't anymore. He's still there, but he isn't executive publisher.
And Clinton is no longer President anymore, but when Bill Speaks, they listen!!! When ERV speaks, everyone at AToday listens!!!
Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter
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GJ, it takes discernment to know when to apply faith. Some questions have very good answers, you don't need faith when you have the answer, with it being "the evidence of things unseen". I believe we misuse faith when we are supposed know the answer and don't.
Then there are things that have been represented as biblical, but aren't, and we claim that you just need faith to believe them. These things have a lot more to do with conformity within church culture, and less to do with biblical principle. God asks for our faith, GJ, He gave us five senes and a brain, He definitely doesn't expect stupidity or continued, neverending, blissful ignorance. Remember the Bible says to study......that takes using our brains.
"FAITH" is the entire answer!!! You either have Faith or you do not...no Faith, you cannot cling to the unique message of the Seventh-day Adventist Church...Faith and Study are connected...study false theology and erroneous teachings and you become what you read. Study and cling to the Bible and the "lesser light" and Faith will become absolute and Resolute. The beauty of the interlocking message and theology, when properly studied, brings absolute Faith in the Bible and the Spirit of Prophecy and the Saviour that gave us this special message and we must cling resolutely to that Faith lest we be on the outside looking in!!!
The Bereans found the answer..."study to show theyself approved..." and you are what you study!!!
If you lack FAITH, you need to promptly change your lifestyle and immerse yourself in the message given to the Seventh-day Adventist church lest your very sould be at stake!!!
There are troubling times ahead and anyone who reads their Bible and The spirit of Prophecy recognizes where we are and where we are headed...now we need to dedicate even more time studying those specail messages put one precept upon another and asking God's divine leadership as we study that we be not turned aside from the Faith...this is quickly moving to the time of Jacobs Trouble and FAITH WILL BE THE KEY TO VICTORY.
Either Find and Have FAITH or recognize just how sandy the soil is that we stand upon and know that one cannot withstand the storm ahead.
ANd we should return to our foundational "Yours in the Blessed Faith"!!!
Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter
George, I tend to believe that this is generational...beginning to Baby Boomers. When you present something as total truth to us, it had better be total truth. We cannot find some fault in your teaching, and then you have no answer for the inaccuracies found.
With Adventism, as well as other religions, we have settled for conformity, teaching in our schools, encouraging it in our churches. It ismuch easier not to have a ot of free-thinking folks with questions running around. The problem is that the inaccuracies in our teachings hit them in them face the moment they step outside that "controlled" environment, and "we just have to have faith" is not always the answer. In fact it is most often not the answer. The other unfortunate consequence is that people often make real life decsions based on information taught them as total truth. Far too many have found that they have simply missed out on extraordinary once in a life time opportunities.
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The use of that Brain and our senses should not lead to the abrogation of the Foundation of Our Faith, very specifically, the ENTIRE BIBLE and the SPIRIT OF PROPHECY.
Humanism relies upon intellect and our own proud conclusions and when these collide with the Biblical record and results in the abbrogation of that Foundation, you are on sand and will be washed away with the first storm.
Denial of Faith will result in denial of the Truth in exchange for the theories and sophistries of man and will lead to into hell and damnation...the Bible Tells me so!!! And I BELIEVE IT, unwaveringly and with resolute FAITH.
I plead with you to do the same that you not be on the wrong side of that wall at the end of the Millenium.
Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter
Gailon Arthur
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Eminent Scientists Present on Creation and Intelligent Design at Newbold College
20 September 2011 Bracknell, United Kingdom [tedNEWS] “If your DNA was stretched out into a line it would reach to the moon and back 8,000 times” was one of the fascinating facts with which Dr Alastair Noble peppered his lecture in the Moor Close Chapel of Newbold College on 17 September 2011.
Dr Noble, a former research chemist who is also a lay preacher and church elder in the Evangelical Brethren Church, is the Director of the recently formed Centre for Intelligent Design based in Glasgow. He conveyed how the complexity of DNA with its ‘information rich system’ thrills and excites him and gives him an insight into the mind of God. He contends that living systems look designed – because they are designed.
His conclusions backed up the contentions of Professor John Walton that DNA sequencing has uprooted Darwin’s ‘Tree of Life’ and proved that homology is not evidence of common descent. “Life” he said, “could not have originated by random chemical combinations.” Professor Walton conceded that there have been mutations in animal life, but that in 150 years one species has not changed into another.
Professor Walton (a former Newbold College Board member), is Research Professor of Chemistry at Andrews University and has published over 270 research articles in learned journals as well as writing three books. Both men were invited by Adventist-laymen’s Services and Industries (ASI-UK) to conduct this Creation Seminar and those who filled Moor Close Chapel at Newbold College to overflowing were informed by the cogent facts presented that we are indeed ‘fearfully and wonderfully made.’ Both men testified to their faith in the great Creator God and both have demonstrated that they are not afraid to challenge widely held views on ‘natural selection.’
In thanking Professor Walton and Dr Noble for their excellent presentations ASI-UK President, Jim Cunningham, said that all had been informed and inspired and the knowledge gained should challenge us to renew our efforts to ‘Share Christ in the Market Place.’ [tedNEWS]
tedNEWS Staff: Miroslav Pujic, director; Deana Stojkovic, editor
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