Advent Talk
General Category => General Discussions => Topic started by: Alex L. Walker on March 27, 2012, 01:27:09 PM
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Again, I ask these questions:
1. Is it wrong for a homosexual to be ordained if they have never engaged in sex?
2. If so, what sin have they committed?
3. Is it fine to ordain those who have been divorced?
4. Is it ok, to ordain an unmarried man who is no longer a virgin?
The Apostle Paul makes it very clear that women should not be ordianed....but remain silent.
But what sin has a homosexual committed if he has never engaged in sex?
Why, say it is OK for women to be ordained but not a homosexual who has not committed a sin?
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OK. so here is my point in asking those questions.
If the argument of pro-women clergy is based on us adjusting to culture, then why not allow homosexuals to pastor?
Especially homosexuals who have not engaged in sex.
Also, why hasn't the Seventh Day Adventist Church adjusted to culture and moved their Sabbath to Sunday?
If we are going to pick and chose what we adjust to then should'nt we make it fair for all?
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OK. so here is my point in asking those questions.
If the argument of pro-women clergy is based on us adjusting to culture, then why not allow homosexuals to pastor?
Especially homosexuals who have not engaged in sex.
Also, why hasn't the Seventh Day Adventist Church adjusted to culture and moved their Sabbath to Sunday?
If we are going to pick and chose what we adjust to then should'nt we make it fair for all?
Alex, I don't think that this debate in the SDA church is predicated solely on adjustment to culture. In the establishment of policy and doctrine all organizations, churches, pastors and leaders pick and choose. No church is complete in its adherence to the Bible. The criteria sets applied in deciding which Bible precepts to adopt and which ones to ignore are so vast as to simply be nebulous.
At this point in time the SDA church is working through the question of women's ordination, which Paul clearly does not forbid. He doesn't call it an abomination or otherwise make it a forbidden action. At this point in time, in my opinion, there is insufficient interest or demand for the debate on homosexual advancement for it to be noticed and pursued. Women make up at least half of the church membership, but homosexuals are a very small minority.
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So lets make this crystal clear then: A homosexual who has not engaged in sex has commited absolutley no sin, correct?
Again, just because women make up a larger percent of the church how does it make it fair not to ordain homosexuals who have not engaged in sex?
Again, noone will answer my question if it is ok for a divorced man to be ordained. Why?
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So lets make this crystal clear then: A homosexual who has not engaged in sex has commited absolutley no sin, correct?
No. I disagree with that statement. The homosexual who has not physically engaged in sex but who spends a great deal of time fantasizing about homosexual sex is not free of sin. That's just my opinion.
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I would agree. But....just because a homosexual is attracted to the same sex does that make him a sinner?
Would you also agree that if a heterosexual male fantasized about having sex with a woman that they are also sinning?
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The SDA Church, in the past, has allowed celebate homosexuals to pastor churches. It does not prohibit such today. Whether or not we have any at this time who are pastors, I do not know.
Snoopy you said:
The homosexual who has not physically engaged in sex but who spends a great deal of time fantasizing about homosexual sex is not free of sin.
I suspect that you would say the same about a hetereosexual person who fantasizes about heterosexual sex?
I will simply suggest that we should treat both the same in regard to spiritual leadership.
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The SDA Church, in the past, has allowed celebate homosexuals to pastor churches. It does not prohibit such today. Whether or not we have any at this time who are pastors, I do not know.
Snoopy you said:
The homosexual who has not physically engaged in sex but who spends a great deal of time fantasizing about homosexual sex is not free of sin.
I suspect that you would say the same about a hetereosexual person who fantasizes about heterosexual sex?
I will simply suggest that we should treat both the same in regard to spiritual leadership.
I was responding to Alex's specific question about homosexual behavior.
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I would agree. But....just because a homosexual is attracted to the same sex does that make him a sinner?
Would you also agree that if a heterosexual male fantasized about having sex with a woman that they are also sinning?
OK - I see your point. Is it a sin simply to have the attraction? I would have to say no to that.
And yes, I would agree with your statement about the heterosexual male. The same standard must apply to both.
But I would have to add that any individual who has successfully refrained from acting on any sinful urge is only in that position by the grace of God. In other words, that argument is not unique to homosexuality.
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Snoopy, exactly.
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Now, to be fair and so people do not think I am trying to justify any actions of my own let me state this.
It is no secret that I dated another male before, but not during the period I was pastoring.
We never engaged in sex. Last year, I immediately resiged as pastor of my church when I formed another relationship with a male and that relationship continues to this day.
Now, did I do the biblical thing and step down? Or should I have remained a pastor and continued to engage in a homosexual relationship?
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Now, to be fair and so people do not think I am trying to justify any actions of my own let me state this.
It is no secret that I dated another male before, but not during the period I was pastoring.
We never engaged in sex. Last year, I immediately resiged as pastor of my church when I formed another relationship with a male and that relationship continues to this day.
Now, did I do the biblical thing and step down? Or should I have remained a pastor and continued to engage in a homosexual relationship?
So you think the fact that you didn't engage in homosexual sex during the time you were pastoring excuses your current homosexual relationship? I'm just trying to understand your position.
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Snoopy: I make no excuses. I believe I was clear when I stated at the time I was a pastor and was ordained I was not in a homosexual relationship, nor had I engaged in homosexual activity.
At the time I was pastoring, there was no romantic encouters and I had remained free from sex.
At this time I was fighting the issue of homosexuality, and believed at that time I could be cured of it.
It was later I formed another relationship and immediately resigned my church.
Why? Because while I do argue that homosexuality is not a choice. It is up to the homosexual whether or not they form a relationship.
I believe the Bible is very clear on practicing homosexuals to be pastors just as the apostle Paul is very clear on women clergy.
That is why I immediately resigned.
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Snoopy: I make no excuses. I believe I was clear when I stated at the time I was a pastor and was ordained I was not in a homosexual relationship, nor had I engaged in homosexual activity.
At the time I was pastoring, there was no romantic encouters and I had remained free from sex.
At this time I was fighting the issue of homosexuality, and believed at that time I could be cured of it.
It was later I formed another relationship and immediately resigned my church.
Why? Because while I do argue that homosexuality is not a choice. It is up to the homosexual whether or not they form a relationship.
I believe the Bible is very clear on practicing homosexuals to be pastors just as the apostle Paul is very clear on women clergy.
That is why I immediately resigned.
Alex, I am in no position to judge you, and I apologize if I came off that way yesterday. However, I vehemently disagree with your statement that I have bolded above. The Bible is abundantly clear that homosexuality is a sin, and it is a sin regardless of whether or not one is a pastor.
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This is how I understand what Alex is saying:
While he was a congregational pastor he refrained from a sexual relationshlip with a male and he was celebate. When he came to the place where he realized that he ws likely to begin a sexual relationshilp with a male, he chose to leave his position as a congregational pastor.
My position and on the assumption that I have understood Alex correctly:
1) We should commend him for taking the position of honor.
2) It is not our role to judge him, that role belongs to God.
3) The sins of a non-celebate homosexual are no worse than the sins of a non-celebate heterosexual.
4) Let us welcome him here and love hillm.
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Snoopy, Alex resigned because he believes that the Bible is clear that non-celebate homosexuals should not be pastors.
I assume that you agree with that.
I do not believe that Alex has ever stated that he believes that homosexual practice is not a sin. Maybe he does, but I do not believe that he has ever said such.
Rather, I see him as saying that he lacked at that time the power to live a celebate life. Maybe that is still his posistion. I will suggest that probably all of us, certainly I have, have been is situtations where we lacked the power to live free of some personal sin that we have.
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Snoopy: I make no excuses. I believe I was clear when I stated at the time I was a pastor and was ordained I was not in a homosexual relationship, nor had I engaged in homosexual activity.
At the time I was pastoring, there was no romantic encouters and I had remained free from sex.
At this time I was fighting the issue of homosexuality, and believed at that time I could be cured of it.
It was later I formed another relationship and immediately resigned my church.
Why? Because while I do argue that homosexuality is not a choice. It is up to the homosexual whether or not they form a relationship.
I believe the Bible is very clear on practicing homosexuals to be pastors just as the apostle Paul is very clear on women clergy.
That is why I immediately resigned.
Alex, I am in no position to judge you, and I apologize if I came off that way yesterday. However, I vehemently disagree with your statement that I have bolded above. The Bible is abundantly clear that homosexuality is a sin, and it is a sin regardless of whether or not one is a pastor.
Snoopy you and I do not disagree on this. The sin is not for one to be homosexual, but to engage in the behavior. I believe it is wrong for a practicing homosexual to be over a church. That is why I resigned.
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Snoopy, Alex resigned because he believes that the Bible is clear that non-celebate homosexuals should not be pastors.
I assume that you agree with that.
I do not believe that Alex has ever stated that he believes that homosexual practice is not a sin. Maybe he does, but I do not believe that he has ever said such.
Rather, I see him as saying that he lacked at that time the power to live a celebate life. Maybe that is still his posistion. I will suggest that probably all of us, certainly I have, have been is situtations where we lacked the power to live free of some personal sin that we have.
You are correct. I do believe it is a sin, not to be homosexual, but to engage in the behavior.
When it came to the point that I was unable to refrain from the behavior, I left the church.
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At this point in time, in my opinion, there is insufficient interest or demand for the debate on homosexual advancement for it to be noticed and pursued.
A former AUC president apparently went public in his support of that cause, to my surprise, unless another person by the same name was the one who signed the petition.
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Snoopy, Alex resigned because he believes that the Bible is clear that non-celebate homosexuals should not be pastors.
I assume that you agree with that.
I do not believe that Alex has ever stated that he believes that homosexual practice is not a sin. Maybe he does, but I do not believe that he has ever said such.
Rather, I see him as saying that he lacked at that time the power to live a celebate life. Maybe that is still his posistion. I will suggest that probably all of us, certainly I have, have been is situtations where we lacked the power to live free of some personal sin that we have.
Gregory,
My issue is with Alex trying to equate homosexual pastors to female pastors and saying that Paul is equally clear on both. I disagree. It is that simple!!
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There is no honor in being a sodomite. It is CLEARLY condemned in scripture. Christianity and homosexuality cannot coexist.
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Horsethief, clearly you can read, you are so full of hate towards homosexuals, I question whether you are heeding to Jesus' words to love thy neighbor.
I believe we have been over this. Do I currently live a homosexual life? Yes. I have been with my partner, Zach, for nearly a year now.
I no longer attend church and I no longer am a pastor.
Does this make me less a person? No.
I, for one, know all to well what comments like yours accomplish and its not good. That is why an overwhelmingly number of homosexuals do not attend church.
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Alex, your attorney has never asked you to keep quiet concerning your lawsuit? It would be wise if you did. That would mean not getting on the internet and making a spectacle of yourself. With your comments, you seem pretty proud of your homosexuality. Even to the point where you try to use scripture and Christian reasoning to justify it. Some people here have heard similar attempts at trying to put a Christian spin on homosexuality by no other than Tommy Shelton.
Are you pursuing this lawsuit because of some psychological damage that you are still suffering from over what happened to you?
From your comments, it sounds as though you are settled into your gay lifestyle unregretfully. This causes me to wonder if you are just being opportunistic.
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Because I admit to being a homosexual has nothing to do with what happened when I was younger.
Is it possible that what occured to me caused me to be homosexual? Perhaps.
I don't understand what that has to do with anyone molesting a child.
Not all homosexuals are child pedophiles, horsethief.
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Because I admit to being a homosexual has nothing to do with what happened when I was younger.
Is it possible that what occured to me caused me to be homosexual? Perhaps.
I don't understand what that has to do with anyone molesting a child.
Not all homosexuals are child pedophiles, horsethief.
I thought your position was that a homosexual is born that way - that it is not a choice. So how could what happened to you cause you to be homosexual?
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Perhaps, I was wrong, maybe you cannot read. When and where did I use scripture to justify living a homosexual lifestyle?
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I do not believe people chose to be that way. I know I did not. I do believe that people can chose whether or not to live the lifestyle but they do not chose to be attracted to the same sex.
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Homosexuals are no more born homosexual than a heterosexual is born heterosexual.
My position is that it is not a choice. But, perhaps things that happen in a childs early years can play a factor in their sexuality. I am not an expert.
I know numerous homsexuals who have not been molested who say they have always been attracted to the same sex.
That is why I hold the position that it is not a choice.
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Sodomy is sin. Clear rebellion against Christ. Alex, you are sodomite. You do not know the scriptures or the power of God. You are in error.
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Homosexuals are no more born homosexual than a heterosexual is born heterosexual.
My position is that it is not a choice. But, perhaps things that happen in a childs early years can play a factor in their sexuality. I am not an expert.
I know numerous homsexuals who have not been molested who say they have always been attracted to the same sex.
That is why I hold the position that it is not a choice.
I was born heterosexual.
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So, let me ask this....Is it possible that a molestor could be the cause of a young adult becoming homosexual?
I know that Dennis and myself are both homosexual. My sources tell me that Rick Shelton is also a practicing homosexual. I believe, Bob, told me he was aware of a couple in Illinois.
So is it a coincidence that many of us who were molested are now homosexual? Probably not.
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I believe it could very well be a factor.
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Alex, in some ways I understand you so well. You see I am the son of a homosexual. Not only that, but I carry the name of my father's dear friend. who later became my church school teacher.My father finally married and I was born when he was 40. His friend, Johann, never married. He was a very kind man, especially to boys, and there is no doubt I was his favorite since I carried his name.
So you see I learned early to read Paul with the eyes of a homosexual. Just like you are doing.
Much later, as I was studying the history of the early church and the development of Roman Catholicism, I also learned to read Paul with the eyes of a solid Roman Catholic. But through all of this I have remained a faithful protestant and a Sevent-day Adventist. For this reason I never interpret Paul with the eyes of a homosexual nor a Roman Catholic. The homosexual way I learned from my father is quite similar to that of the Roman Catholic. What seems so clear to you as a homosexual is blurred and confusing to me when I don't wear my homosexual glasses. I prefer reading Paul as a Seventh-day Adventist, and then he is completely clear to me - no confusion. And this is where I clearly understand those leaders of the Seventh-day Adventist who follow their own conscience and refuse to bow, neither to the homosexual nor the Roman Catholic rendering of Paul.
I might explain to you later how I discovered my father's homosexual understanding of Paul. But this is all for now.
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Thanks Johann for your story.
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I no longer attend church and I no longer am a pastor.
I would hope that you could find a congregation that was conservative where you could worship as you do have conservative leanings in your approach to Scripture. Such congregations do exist and who welcome all to attend, but may restrict membership in their congregation.
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Not all homosexuals are child pedophiles, horsethief.
The majority of homosexuals are not pedophiles.
As a point of interest, pedophilics can be classified psychologically into 27 different types. They are not all the same. This classification systesm does not consider whether or not they are homosexual as homosexuality and pedophilia are two different systems.
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I, for one, know all to well what comments like yours (horsethief) accomplish and its not good. That is why an overwhelmingly number of homosexuals do not attend church.
It is clearly the reason why many do not attend chruch.
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My position is that it is not a choice. But, perhaps things that happen in a childs early years can play a factor in their sexuality. I am not an expert.
Experts are attempting to determine the origon of homosexuality. So far, the evidence is not convincing. They are generally exploring three different areas:
1) Genetic: The evidence is not convincing.
2) Pre-natal (pre-birth): Something that happens prior to birth that is not related to genetics. Not convincing.
3) Post-natal (after birth): Something that happens to a probablly very young child after birth. Not convincing.
There may be some evidence that seems to support each of the above. In all of the above, it is not convincing and none of the above seems to apply to all homosexuals. As I have said before: The etiology of homosexuality is not clear.
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So is it a coincidence that many of us who were molested are now homosexual? Probably not.
Such would in all probability involve the choice of someone else, not the choice of the child.
Unfortunately, in many areas of life, the choices of others affect us. Is a drunk driver running over an innocent bystander a choice? Yes. The driver's choice to drive while intoxicated, not the bystander's.
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I agree Bob.
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I agree Bob. So in other words Bob would you agree, perhaps, that homosexuality is not a choice?
Would you agree, perhaps, that one does not chose to be gay, but that it is possible that some factors in ones childhood could dictate ones sexuality? IOW, do you think it is possible the choice is made for them?
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I no longer attend church and I no longer am a pastor.
I would hope that you could find a congregation that was conservative where you could worship as you do have conservative leanings in your approach to Scripture. Such congregations do exist and who welcome all to attend, but may restrict membership in their congregation.
Gregory, I do know a lot of scripture. I was raised in a Christian home, my father was a Free Will Baptist minister for ove 40 years.
I atteded the Ezra Christian School, and have went through Bible siminars as well.
I have attended a few chrches and have not settled on one yet.
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Ok I am just spoiled by Facebook......"Likes" for Johann, ALex(again), Snoopy, and Gregory! Some powerful lessons to learn in this thread, folks........
Well, if you lived int eh area, Alex, I would invite you to my church....but then the conservative portion might be a problem! LOL!! Seriously, I pray you soon find a church home that is truly following the unconditional love of Our Heavenly Father.
I would hope that you could find a congregation that was conservative where you could worship as you do have conservative leanings in your approach to Scripture. Such congregations do exist and who welcome all to attend, but may restrict membership in their congregation.
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I agree Bob. So in other words Bob would you agree, perhaps, that homosexuality is not a choice?
Would you agree, perhaps, that one does not chose to be gay, but that it is possible that some factors in ones childhood could dictate ones sexuality? IOW, do you think it is possible the choice is made for them?
I agree that it is possible that someone else's choices triggered the development of this unnatural desire (unnatural in that it wasn't part of God's original plan at Creation). What each of us do with our desires, however, is tied to our own choices. We can influence the intensity and duration of our desires by what we choose to do or not do.
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Why is there even a discussion about homosexuality on this Christian site? It is clearly described as an abomination in the Bible. The scriptures clearly define it's partakers as sodomites. The more time spent on this topic is doing exactly what homosexuals want, that is to present and expose this behavior more and more so to condition people to consider it normal and not repulsive. Thus making it more acceptable.
That's exactly the way that Satan conditions Christian believers into accepting sinful behavior as normal behavior.
Do we want this site to be used as that kind of conditioning tool?
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Why do you participate?
It is probably for the same reasons that we participate.
If you really beliee what you said, whay are you a part of it?
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Because I, like many of us, let myself get drawn into it because I wanted to make my points. But I realize that I fell into the very trap that I just described. I regret getting involved now. I became part of that deception. We all know the scriptures condemn it. We all know where to go to find that.
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Why is there even a discussion about homosexuality on this Christian site? It is clearly described as an abomination in the Bible. The scriptures clearly define it's partakers as sodomites. The more time spent on this topic is doing exactly what homosexuals want, that is to present and expose this behavior more and more so to condition people to consider it normal and not repulsive. Thus making it more acceptable.
That's exactly the way that Satan conditions Christian believers into accepting sinful behavior as normal behavior.
Do we want this site to be used as that kind of conditioning tool?
horsethief, you've hit on a very important point. The Hebrew economy required washing one's clothes and flesh in water whenever one contacted certain things that were unclean. This was to teach that contact with sin defiles. And you hit on one of the things that qualifies as such defilement.
Whenever movies or TV programs present things as acceptable or cool or funny, and we watch such things as entertainment, it conditions our minds to be more accepting of it. Sometimes the screenwriter is intentionally trying to persuade us or change our thinking, while we think we're only watching something as entertainment.
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Horsethief: Noone forced you to partake or add your two cents.
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Is that not what's happening on AT when we are bombarded with a line of reasoning suggesting and insisting that a lifestyle and behavior is not a disease and not a choice? That these persons can fill the calling as pastors?
The subtle notion that the lifestyle is normal and natural is behind that reasoning.
It is an attempt to get believers to accept abominable behavior as normal. It's happening right here on this sight.
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Hmm,
seems horsethief that is whats happening on all subjects. Just think what goes on with SDA professors teaching the Evolution theory, and the change of input of Scripture in SDA foundations. It's really the signs of times and the enemy is much more aggressiv with roaring waves over our heads. Hopefully some of the discussions planted a seed somewhere.
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Is that not what's happening on AT when we are bombarded with a line of reasoning suggesting and insisting that a lifestyle and behavior is not a disease and not a choice? That these persons can fill the calling as pastors?
The subtle notion that the lifestyle is normal and natural is behind that reasoning.
It is an attempt to get believers to accept abominable behavior as normal. It's happening right here on this sight.
Perhaps you are misunderstanding what is happening. Alex has not been arguing that behavior is not a choice. He's been arguing that desire is not a choice, and I've been arguing that we can't say that desire is never the result of choices. In dialoging back and forth, Alex has come to the point where he thinks that desire can result from some choices, specifically the choices of others. But I haven't noticed him say that behavior, giving in to the desires, is not a choice.
If you want to read something in the SoP that gets close to this topic, but not quite exactly the same, try 2T 391. There we have described how the sinful choices of the parents affects the children, even infants. That isn't to say that the children don't have a choice at some point, and that isn't to say that what is described is natural. Notice the words "unnatural" and "degraded" on that page.
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The more time spent on this topic is doing exactly what homosexuals want, that is to present and expose this behavior more and more so to condition people to consider it normal and not repulsive. Thus making it more acceptable.
It's not going to change Bob. This person dialogues wth you on this subject because they want the attention.
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It is possible that Bob can help the understanding of ones dilemma. and also others that just might be looking at these posts.