Advent Talk
General Category => General Discussions => Topic started by: Gregory on August 23, 2012, 06:16:22 PM
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There has been a lot of talk about the Sabbath issues that have occured in the territory of some of the Pacific Islands. I wondered if any had thought to contact church units that were involved. I contacted the local Mission, the Union and, the Division and asked them some questions. I stated in my request that I intended to post their response to me on an Internet forum. A decision wsa made for a Division officer to respond to me. I post that response here. I do not beleive that it is likely to change any minds. Many of us, including me, are probably already decided in their opinion. Regardless, I believe that in a situation like this, we should contact the local church agencies inolved. We should listen to what they say. My overal perception is that honest caring peple have been involved in this issue--people who are committed to following the Bible and the leading of the Holy Spirit. They did not have evil malice in mind. They did not do it because it ws the easy way out. I would hope that all could attribute honest intention to those with whom they differ.
Dear brother Matthews
I have been asked to respond to your request. This issue is one that has brought out the best and worst in people. Maybe God needed to stir us out of sleep. He is coming very soon.
Yes, a lot has been said, which means there is a lot of misinformation out there. Unfortunately a lot of accusations have been thrown at the leaders by people who never approached the leaders as individuals in the first place as Jesus suggested in Matt 18 - they just sent sent emails out to everybody. The leaders chose not to reply as they did not want to add fuel to the fire. Instead, they have been assisting the people in Samoa to adjust to a new reality. It is not comfortable, but obeying God is sometimes like that. And most church members in Samoa are happy to maintain the 7-day cycle.
When you ask the people in Samoa, who actually passed through this experience, they will tell you that they do not understand all the complicated scientific arguments. They just count the number of sunsets and worship after the 7th one - as Seventh-day Adventists have always done. Some argue that just as individual travelers cross the dateline and miss or gain a day in so-doing, then Samoa should be able to do the same. The fatal flaw in that argument is that Samoa doesn't move. It is anchored to the seafloor. Further, the Sabbath is tied to the land, not to individuals, so how many times you or I cross the dateline is irrelevant
Some also argue that the day is 48 hours long, so Samoa just moved from the back to the front of that time, and no day was lost. That is also true if you can speed across the surface of earth to enjoy all those 48 hours, but again, a land mass does not have that privilege or opportunity. It cannot move, so it does not experience 48 hours. Jesus underscored it when he said "are there not 12 hours in a day?" (Jn 11:9).
What complicates this issue is the hurt feelings of Samoan ministers who reside in other countries. They thought they should have been consulted before the change was made. Maybe they are right, but the church in Samoa only had about 6 months notice of this, and there was no time to organise events for people worldwide - they had enough to deal with in their own back yard. But I don't see anywhere else in the world an ethnic group of pastors demanding the right to be consulted on issues that affect the homeland. So unfortunately some of our brethren have crossed an ethical boundary line. It will take time, and healing needs to occur. But God specialises in that, so we are safe in His hands.
Some people accuse the local union (Trans Pacific Union) and division (South Pacific Division) of heavy handing the situation and forcing the Samoan mission into a bad decision. They go even further and say that people in Samoa are simple-minded and just follow their leaders out of respect. This is very unfortunate. The leaders (both church and lay) are not ignorant and passive. They have been around, and are very experienced and educated people. I had the privilege of meeting a group of over 100 local church elders, and nobody could say that they will just accept anything anybody tells them. Therefore it is up to the world church to support those leaders, praying for them rather than calling them names. Their greatest desire is to faithfully follow Jesus and be ready for His return. That is the prayer of each of us.
Above all, God is in control. It is his church and he will ensure that the right thing is done. He is our court of appeal, not cyberspace. If you have any further question, please don't hesitate to contact me. Blessings to you
Maranatha
David
David Tasker PhD
Field Secretary
South Pacific Division
Locked Bag 2014,
Wahroonga, NSW 2076
Phone: +61 (0)2 9847 3308
Email: davidtasker@adventist.org.au
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No, it most certainly does not change my mind.
I've talked to several people from Samoa and what is presented in the letter is not the real picture.
One thing I can agree with -- there are well educated and knowlegable people in Samoa who truly want to do God's will, and that's why this Sunday movement isn't just going to come in undisputed.
But I have to do some research before saying more as I want to be sure of the facts.
An obvious observation--
Tasker says the Island doesn't move.
Well, it "moved" with a double July 4th in 1892 due to American influence (experiencing an eight day week) taking it out of it's natural time zone environment.
but now it can't move (experiencing a six day week) back ??
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This part of the quote is what I am looking at myself:
When you ask the people in Samoa, who actually passed through this experience, they will tell you that they do not understand all the complicated scientific arguments. They just count the number of sunsets and worship after the 7th one - as Seventh-day Adventists have always done.
Unless there was also one extra sunset or one less sunset, the seventh-day remains associated with the sunset to sunset record, which is the only bibilical way to determine the Sabbath around the world.
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Ulicia,I am not interested in changing your mind. That is not the role that God has given me. Teaching truth and the will of God is the role of the Holy Spirit.
I simply say, as I have said before: There are honest people who want to do the will of God on both sides. I hope that we do not attribute malice and evil intent to those peoploe.
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This part of the quote is what I am looking at myself:
When you ask the people in Samoa, who actually passed through this experience, they will tell you that they do not understand all the complicated scientific arguments. They just count the number of sunsets and worship after the 7th one - as Seventh-day Adventists have always done.
Unless there was also one extra sunset or one less sunset, the seventh-day remains associated with the sunset to sunset record, which is the only bibilical way to determine the Sabbath around the world.
So where does one start to count from?
According to a 100 year recent tradition
or the years before that 100 year tradition was enforced?
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The SDA Chruch has felt that the practice of the Orthodox Jews was instructive. The Ortoodox have kept an unbroken weekly tradition which can be traced back to the time of Christ.
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I have stated here before that I discovered by Google that the Orthodox Jews are just happy they have no members in Samoa. This means that we cannot count of them for help here.
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I would say we can reckon the setting of the sun on the 6th day tp mark the beginning of the 7th day Sabbath from when the sun sets on the 6th day in Jerusalem and follow the setting of that sun around the world.
Whenever the sun sets after it has set in Jerusalem around the world, that is when the 7th day begins from the setting of the sun in Jerusalem to when it sits anywhere else around the world.
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We must remember that Judiasm is divided into several groups. One Jewish group in the U.S. allows Sunday keeping and one can attend their services on Sunday. Other Jewish groups are not religious. They really do notkeep any day.
The Orthodox Jews have observed the Sabbath in a constqant weekly cycle of seven (7) days since the time of Christ and one can trace that 7-day cycle back to the time of Christ.
What about Judiasm on Samoa? According to what is on the web:
1) The advice as to keeping the Sabbath is just as varried as are the Jewish groups. One can find whatever they are looking for.
2) It should be noted that Orthodox Judiasm requires that there be 10 male Jews in order to constitute a Jewish community and to hold services. Such does not exist in Samoa.
3) Some Jewish authorities state that Samoa has either one (1) or two (2) Jews living there. But such does not constitute a Jewish community that is capable of having services.
4) Some Jewish authorities state that the one or two Jews living i samoa are NOT religious. If so, they would not be concerned about the Sabbath.
5) The advice given to Jews is not uniform. However some Rabbis have stated that the obligation associated with Sabbath keping is to keep the 7th day of a weekly cycle that remains constant, regardless of what that day is named and regardless of what day is worshped on by Christians.
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Daryl, what you have stated is a posiiton of a minority group of SDAs.
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You mean a remnant within a remnant? :)
Daryl, what you have stated is a posiiton of a minority group of SDAs.
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I would say we can reckon the setting of the sun on the 6th day tp mark the beginning of the 7th day Sabbath from when the sun sets on the 6th day in Jerusalem and follow the setting of that sun around the world.
Whenever the sun sets after it has set in Jerusalem around the world, that is when the 7th day begins from the setting of the sun in Jerusalem to when it sets anywhere else around the world.
Daryl, what you have stated is a posiiton of a minority group of SDAs.
I don't think that's a position Adventists hold. A very similar position was promoted in 1900 and strongly spoken against by Ellen White and other leaders.
By that concept everyone east of Jeruselem up to the recognized international dateline would have to start keeping Sunday, in order to be worshipping at a time AFTER the sun set in Jerusalem. That includes something like 2/3 of earth's population. What a glorious victory that would be for the beast and his image!
If the day BEGINS in Jerusalem, that means it would end somewhere around the Jordan River. Jerusalem would be one day ahead of the Jordan and everything east.
It was addressing just such a concept -- when a group in 1900 started agitating that the dateline should be in "Eden" (in Iraq) and when the sun sets there the sabbath begins and travels around the world, which would mean all 7th day Sabbath keepers would have to keep Sunday east of that proposed "divine" dateline to the recognized internation dateline. -- that Ellen White wrote these words:
" Is it possible that so much importance can be clustered about those who observe the Sabbath, and yet no one can tell when the Sabbath comes? Then where is the people who bear the badge or the sign of God? What is the sign?
The Seventh-day Sabbath, which the Lord blessed and sanctified, and pronounced holy, with great penalties for its violation. {3MR 254.2}
The seventh-day Sabbath is in no uncertainty. It is God's memorial of His work of Creation. It is set up as a Heaven-given memorial, to be observed as a sign of obedience. God wrote the whole law with His finger on two tables of stone. . . . {3MR 255.1}
Now, my sister, although I am at present sick, I write sitting up in bed to tell you that we are not to give the least credence to the day-line theory. It is a snare of Satan brought in by his own agents to confuse minds. You see how utterly impossible for this thing to be, that the world is all right observing Sunday, and God's remnant people are all wrong. This theory of the day line would make all our history for the past fifty-five years a complete fallacy. But we know where we stand. . . . {3MR 255.2}
It is definitely NOT the answer.
It is not supported by scripture, nor by history, nor by common sense.
Can you imagine Jesus going to Jerusalem and keeping the Sabbath on the seventh-day there, but when He traveled east of Jerusalem into the Jordan valley, He had to "set his watch" back a day.
There is NO NEED to be confused as to what day is the Sabbath.
I'm sure the devil is extremely pleased to see people getting all confused over which day is the sabbath and thus he can with ease shift them into his day of worship.
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But back to the topic of the thread.
First of all -- the issue isn't "accusing the leadership" the issue is seeing what has taken place with a whole region of Adventist worshipping on Sunday, and addressing a serious issue.
Studying the history behind that move -- how it began, and being convicted that the decision is wrong.
Secondly -- the problem isn't with Samoan ministers in other countries having "hurt feelings' because they weren't consulted. These "other pastors" are still in the South Pacific Division, most with relatives living in Samoa, and some of them in fairly high positions in the Division.
The process of making this important decision was not done right. The problem is that the whole thing was NOT done in an open fashion.
Now the leadership is talking the same talk we hear concerning the ordination of women. I read them saying that the church at large has spoken, "the safety of a person is in the collective voice of Church", the members are to submit and not hold on to their private opinions. To go ahead and cause "disunity" is rebellion. And they quote the passages from EGW -- even the one about the GC in session being the highest authority! to tell people they better submit! I just read such a paper last night written by Dr. Lemoni.
The questions I've been asking is --
Was there even a constitutency meeting held?
The answer I keep getting is -- no.
A lot of pastors and ministers tried to contact the leadership prior to December 2011, but the door was CLOSED.
E-mails were sent to President Uili Solofa, but no reply. Basically any "opposing view" was shut out.
This whole thing is a mass contradiction!
These Samoan ministers Taskier was talking about, are still largely in the South Pacific Division. They are part of the consitituency of the South Pacific Division. There was no constituency meeting making this important decision. It was a decision made by a few men in their offices.
Just prior to the dateline shift the leadership called the Samoan church members together and presented the plan and all their arguments as to why this was supposedly "the right thing", including the misinformation that the GC was in support of worshipping on Sunday. (The GC has since clarified there was never any motion on this Sunday issue or the dateline for that matter) .
And now the spokes person of SPD on Samoa and the Sabbath, urges "UNITY" because the church has spoken, and the church's voice trumps individual convictions.
Isn't this concept in contradiction to true Protestantism?
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First of all -- the issue isn't "accusing the leadership" the issue is seeing what has taken place with a whole region of Adventist worshipping on Sunday, and addressing a serious issue.
Ulicia, I don't think this is a serious issue.
In fact, I think it is a non-issue.
I believe the good people of Samoa are keeping the Sabbath according to either their own conscience, or the conscience of their leadership.
Since the dateline is a confusing subject to figure out, as is evidenced by the many conflicting posts here, I like to believe they are doing the best they can.
It's not like they are not keeping the Sabbath at all.
I think there has been a lot of time spent debating a non-issue.
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Interesting. I find myself in some agreement with both Ulicia and with Artiste :)
I agree with Ulicia that the issue here is serious.
I agree with Artiste in her comments regardingt he people of Samoa and that it is a confusing subject;
If I may expand upon what Aritiste said, I will suggest that at this point in time, The Lord has not brought convincing clairty to the issue. For whatever reason, it seems to me that God has allowed this issue to go unresolved ( remember, this issue has been with us for 70 years or so). On that basis, I will suggest that this is not a "testing truth" issue at thiss point in time. Perhaps it will be later. If so, only after the Lord has brought clairty to the situation.
So, at this point in time, I will suggest that people are sincere on both sides and God accepts that.
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"The error that some are in danger of committing is in giving to the mind and judgment of one man, or of a small group of men, the full measure of authority and influence that God has vested in His church in the judgment and voice of the General Conference assembled to plan for the prosperity and advancement of His work.
"When this power, which God has placed in the church, is accredited wholly to one man, and he is invested with the authority to be judgment for other minds, then the true Bible order is changed. ... Let us give to the highest organized authority in the church that which we are prone to give to one man or to a small group of men" (9T 260-261).
I think it is a serious issue when a small group of men decide that a congregation that they haven't consulted is going to switch from keeping the Sabbath on Saturday to keeping the Sabbath on Sunday. According to the above, "the true Bible order is changed."
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It is a serious issue for the people of the congregation.
But there are many, many congregations with even more serious issues. I don't think we can solve the issue for the Samoans from halfway across the world. Better that we spend our time with issues closer to home that we understand better, being part of our own culture.
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The church is a world church.
If we now say it's prefectly fine for one segment of the world church to call Sunday the 7th day and keep it as the Sabbath, what will we say when the Sunday laws come here?
We have long said that it is "the mark of the beast".
People will laugh at us and say -- your church obviously doesn't believe that, look at all those Adventist churches calling Sunday the 7th day. After all didn't you say it was a "non-issue", that it didn't matter, and "well at least they are keeping A Sabbath day"?
So -- now that America is finally waking up and returning to a "nation under God" please keep A sabbath day (the resurrection day) and stop calling it the "mark of the beast."
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I think it is a serious issue when a small group of men decide that a congregation that they haven't consulted is going to switch from keeping the Sabbath on Saturday to keeping the Sabbath on Sunday. According to the above, "the true Bible order is changed."
Basically that is how it happened in Samoa.
But we must go back in history a little further. Tonga set the precedent, and no one really challenged it.
Questions began to arise when other islands began to return to the eastern time zone. So in 2005 I believe it was, the South Pacific Division did ask their OWN Biblical Research team to come up with a recommendation.
They cite some names of people who submitted their comments, like William Johnson, but don't say what those submissions contained, whether they spoke for or against, but by citing the names it gives the impression that they were in agreement.
The first part of the recommendations we can all agree with as it's basic Sabbath information.
But the last part has no biblical support, and they even acknowledge that, and they base everything on the precedent set by Tonga and on an assumption that 180th is a divine line.
http://adventist.org.au/assets/339227
It is based on this document (produced NOT by the GC BRC, but a local BRC in SPD) that the decision for Samoa was made, basically without allowing any opposing views to interfer.
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So what were the basis for Sunday worship according to this document?
We cannot take for granted that the situation in any of these places will remain as it is. A change of Adventist Sabbath practice might, therefore, lead to considerable tension, if Tonga, for instance, as a state decides to change to a calendar which follows the meridian, and the Adventists had to change once again.
O.K. this reasoning is actually what got Tonga into Sunday worship in the first place. As we know all the Islands were on Asian time prior to the establishment of the Prime Meridian in Greenwich, England. Tonga has never changed it's position. In Tonga, the Wesleyan Mission Society and they were heavily into politics and greatly influenced the ruling monarchy. Tonga had a constitution that contained a Sunday law -- it was a national day of rest. Sunday was also called "the sabbath" as many coming from a puritan background called Sunday -- it was Sunday in the regular weekly cycle.
The first Adventist missionaries arrived in Tonga, August 30, 1895. Somoa had "crossed" the dateline into American time three years earlier, and other Islands (like the Cook Islands) had also shifted. So it was a time of uncertainty as to how Tonga would respond.
Secondly, the rather strict Sunday law would have made Sabbath keeping somewhat difficult. Though they probably would have kept the Sabbath had Tonga aligned itself with American time. However, Tonga never did change, and Adventists, instead of adjusting when that reality was made manifest, continued the keeping of Sunday in Tonga.
Samoa wanted to get back to Asian time as early as 1914 when it came under the protectorate of New Zealand, but America intervened and Samoa stayed on American time.
The risk of these Islands returning to Asian time was of course, real -- as now we see several that have returned.
However, the risk of Tango moving to American time is rather remote. The natural connection for these Islands is with the Austrailan/New Zealand countinent, not with America. Not only is business with those countries, but also the church headquarters places them together with Australia and New Zealand.
So basically the disruption with their weekly cycles came about because of interference by european and americans, and the arbitrary 180th. Now they are returning to their natural time zone.
On the basis of these observations and the wide consultation sought, the Biblical Research Committee of the South Pacific states that
o As there is no clear “Thus saith the Lord” for the establishment of the dateline and the keeping of the Sabbath around the dateline, it is important to listen to the local Seventh-day Adventist community and its leadership,
They admit they have no clear "Thus saith the Lord"
They had no "Thus saith the Lord" to allow Sunday worship in Tonga for over 100 years.
But now the say "listen to the church leadership" and keep Sunday.
While choosing the 180th meridian is practical, it has never been consistently followed by human authorities and societies, and the deviations from it are all generally accepted by the same authorities which established and accepted the position of the dateline in general.
The Seventh-day Adventist pioneers coming to the Pacific understood, however, the 180th meridian to be the natural dateline and chose to keep the Sabbath in accordance with that.
? They observed that the sunset moved in a consistent line across the globe, without any random deviations, and the setting of the sun implied to them a biblical principle.
A natural dateline? Why should they understand the 180th is natural?
Actually, prior to 1884 there were some studies (J.N. Andrews for one) where they suggested the "natural dateline" came down through the Bering Straits, but that isn't the 180th, it's more like the 168W.
I did read one writer from the early 1900's who mentioned the 180th was a few degrees off, but close enough "to be safe". Well, that ended up like saying Sunday is a day off but close enough.
Actually the natural time zone for these Islands is Asian time.
They are FAR away from America, they have their dealings (as well as church connections) with Australia and New Zealand.
As to the sun setting in a consistant line across the globe, that isn't really accurate either, as sunset can reach any given meridian with a deviation of up to 11 hours. (Example: June 21, at any given meridian, sunset at arctic circle 11:30 p.m. at equator 6:00 p.m., at antarctic circle 12:30 noon. by Dec. 21 the times are reversed)
And as there is a general sense of agreement with present practice in the Pacific islands, and as any attempt to change would create serious and complicated pastoral problems,
No one challenged it?
Well that's not totally true either.
But they did say "general sense of agreement" so that does allow for some disagreement.
But it still doesn't give a good reason to keep Sunday.
We recommend that
o The present practice of Sabbath keeping in the Pacific Islands around the dateline be maintained.
Maybe I missed something, but I didn't see anything in the document to sanction sunday keeping.
I suppose one could say it started with good intentions, the first missionaries fully expecting the Tonga Islands to adjust to the 180th, but when Tonga decided they weren't going to let a bunch of Europeans and Americans change their week out of sync with their neighbors, that would have been the point to re-evaluate.
But then to make this moment of historical confusion in the area the precedent for future Sunday keeping for other Islands, like Samoa, returning to their natural time zone?
Why? Because it would be hard for Tonga to change now, they're comfortable with Sunday?