Advent Talk
General Category => General Discussions => Topic started by: Dedication on September 11, 2012, 09:08:56 AM
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Earlier someone mentioned a dialogue between Dwight Nelson and Steve Bohr
I went on line looking for it but found something else that rather alarmed me.
All kinds of links popped up concerning Dwight Nelson preaching that Allah of the Moslems was the same God that Abraham, Israel, and Christians worship.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fU6-rKqfigM
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A very difficult question. Some SDA have for many years tried to give the Muslims a hand by pointing to similarities in our life styles, and also in the common history with the Jews since Abraham is also their forefather although through Ishmael.
When I checked a few year ago, Allah is the name for God in Arab Bible translations, and Allah is also the name used for God in our publications, such as Sabbath School lessons. This could be what Dwight Nelson is referring to.
Some of those who have lived and worked with Muslims evaluate there being about a 25% overlap in the definitions of Allah and God. Muslims have no use for the trinity because they do not need a savior, since their religion relies of salvation by works alone. In a religion where Allah governs every act there is no need for forgiveness, as far as I understand it.
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It is good to find the common ground, whatever that is, between Muslims and Seventh-day Adventists.
Another common ground is in relation to the Health Food Laws as in clean and unclean foods.
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It is good to find the common ground, whatever that is, between Muslims and Seventh-day Adventists.
Another common ground is in relation to the Health Food Laws as in clean and unclean foods.
Common ground as a stepping stone to show them the truth of the gospel, yes.
Common ground to bring Adventists in harmony with Muslims, no.
The term "god" simply means "god" it does not define which god-- the Israelites worshipped the true GOD, but they also ended up going after false "gods".
The term "allah" may also have the same meaning as "god" and can be used in the same way.
HOWEVER, to say the god of the muslims is the same as the God of Christians is like saying
that Marduke, the god of Babylon, is the same as the Creator God of Israel.
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The Muslims claim:
‘THERE IS NO GOD BUT ALLAH, AND MUHAMMAD IS HIS MESSENGER.’
Who is Allah?
Many people mistakenly say Allah is just another name for the Biblical God. They say it is the same God Abraham worshipped and we worship, except they call him Allah.
Comparing the two shows us Allah IS NOT the same as the God of the Bible!!!
ALLAH chose Hagar and her son Ishmael for his covenant. (A covenant that appears not to need a Savior, but is based on man's doings)
THE GOD OF OUR BIBLE chose Abraham's other son, ISAAC, the son of promise, as heir to His Covenant. Gen. 17:19-21 (A covenant based on God's Promises, in which Christ is the true Israel, and all who are in Him are Abraham's seed.[Gal. 3:29])
ALLAH is singular, aloof, and says the biblical teaching that Christ is the Son of God is blasphemous. In fact they go so far as to say,
"for the Christians to call Christ the Son of God is to imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. God's curse upon them." (Sura at-taubah, 30)
The Qur'an Says:
"Those who believe that Allah has a son must be admonished since this is a monstrous blasphemy and falsehood (18:4-6).
Allah has never begotten a son and there are no deities beside him (23:91).
Jews say that Ezra is the son of Allah while the Christians say the Messiah is the son of Allah. May Allah destroy them. They are both perverted. They worship rabbis, monks and the Messiah, the son of Mary, as Lords besides Allah in opposition to the monotheistic command given them (9:30, 31).
Allah is only one. He is too transcendent and majestic to have a son. The Messiah is not ashamed to be a slave of Allah (5:72,73).
THE GOD OF OUR BIBLE is "ONE GOD" yet it is not singular, for He revealed Himself through the Son Jesus Christ, who is declared as God. (Heb. 1:1,8) "Let US, make man, in OUR image, in the image of God. (Gen. 1:26,27)
ALLAH advocates salvation by works
THE GOD OF OUR BIBLE pays the atonement price with His own Blood and writes His laws upon our hearts.
Allah is not the God of heaven.
History records that Allah originated as a purely Arabic Deity. Allah already existed in Mecca before Muhammad. The god Sin, "The Controller of the Night," had the crescent moon as his emblem, and the lunar-based calendar, which became the primary religious symbols of Islam, was worshipped in Arabia as AI-Ilah Lord of the Ka'aba. So the tribe to which Muhammad belonged was already worshipping AI-Ilah – the moon God. Allah is still associated with the crescent moon of the lunargoddess.
ALLAH was represented by a black stone which was believed to have come down from heaven. This black stone is supposedly a sign or symbol of being the corner stone in the Kingdom of Allah. "The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner?” (Matthew 21:42); “The Kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof” (Matthew 21:43). The Moslems, understand these verse to mean that Jesus (who they say was a prophet like Mohammed) made it clear the rejected stone in the prophecy (21:42) meant a rejected nation and that this rejected nation was none other than the Ishmaelites which have now been given what the Israelites (21:43). History, they say, has shown this to be the case.
Yet, the Bible tells us that Christ is the cornerstone!
Eph.2:20 "Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone";
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On a personal note, I would be interested in knowing if those people who quote the Quran have read it from beginning to end, or if they are just citing what someone else has said.
I would also like to know if any of have read the commentary of the verses so that they understand how Islamics understand the ancient verses.
To set the record straight: I have read it from cover to cover and I have read the commentary in an attempt to understand how Islamics intrepret the ancient verses.
Why is this of value?
1) The Quran is not typically published in chronological order as it was written.
2) The commenetary can point you to later verses where an earlier verse was either modified or further explained.
3) Doing so mays et a historical context. ISlam arose in a time of great military conflict. Some of the verses related to the destruction of ISlamic enemies were specificlyrelated to military conflict and were notintended tko bapplicable to the general public.
4) Islam is focused on idolatry. It calls Jews and Christians the "People fo the Book."
5) Anyone who suggests that Islam has not plce for a forgiving god simply misrepresents Islam. ILn Islam, Allah is constantly described as a mericful, forgiving god.
6) The vengence that some see in Islam is directed at those who would destroy Islam.
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Much of the wrath and vengeance seen in Allah of the Koran is very similar the the wrath and vengeance of the God of the Old Testament. In the OT stories more people are killed by God directly, or by his command than are killed by anyone, or anything else. He demanded the killing of innocent women and children several times. I would say that he and Allah could certainly be the same God.
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So I take it that you have no use for the God of the Old Testament.
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So I take it that you have no use for the God of the Old Testament.
No, I just believe that he and Allah are most likely the same God. Their similarities are so much to ignore. I believe that different times, circumstances, and cultures require different actions and policies. Fundamentally God may not change, but in circumstantial variations actions and reactions have to be tailored to the particulars. I believe that on the OT God's presence among humans was confined to the ark of the covenant in the most Holy place, but that after the death of Jesus, each person who is a believer is now the Ark of the covenant and carries the presence of God with all that is implied in that. Where it was once a thing confined to one nation, it became universal to humankind. I believe that Mohammed only knew God/Allah as the OT God of the Jews and had tremendous respect for that God. I believe that the religion he founded was based entirely on that God, but tailored to the circumstances of his time.
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Interesting.
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Like Gregory, I have read the Koran cover to cover many times, as well as the commentaries. I have also read many books in the histories of the people's of the region. I tend to believe, based on what I have read, that the early Baals were based also a primitive version of God. I also believe that many people from many cultures and geographical areas have worshipped God, not really knowing who they were worshipping. I also believe that many Christians do NOT worship God, but a made up entity that they have concocted to appease their need for divine accreditation of their cultural or pathological needs and/or wants. Just as many Muslims have done with their versions of Allah/God. When it comes to recreating God in their own image, neither Muslims, Christains, or Jews hold a monopoly. They are equally guilty.
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No wonder Jesus had to come to reveal God the Father.
In Murcielago's posts comparing Him to the God of the Moslems one would have to agree with the Gnostic that the God of the OT was a different God from the one in the New Testament.
I strongly suggest for you to read Patriarchs and Prophets in conjunction with the Bible to get a better picture of God in the Old Testament, and stop reading the Koran.
Though it may be true that the Muslims and the papal church served the same god. There is speculation that the papal church nurtured Mohammad into his position as spiritual leader of the Arabs in their hopes to destroy the Syrian Christian churches that were not lining up with papal policies. But then the "project" took on a life of it's own and "backfired".
I'm surprised that the proponents of women's equal rights would think one of the most anti-women's rights society serves the same God.
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Quote:"the OT God's presence among humans was confined to the ark of the covenant in the most Holy place, but that after the death of Jesus, each person who is a believer is now the Ark of the covenant and carries the presence of God "
Why would you believe that?
Didn't Enoch, Abraham, Jacob, Joseph, David, Daniel and others who "walked with God" have God with them? God's presence was with people in the Old Testament.
These people of faith had that faith because God's presence was not confined to the ark but was with people working on their hearts and minds and changing them into great men and women living for Him.
God isn't confined to any place, He is Omnipresent. He's not being carried around by believers. He is WITH the believers carrying them through life. He was with believers in the OT and He is with believers in modern times.
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I have read Patriarchs and Prophets several times. I understand that perspective.
I read books like the Koran because I would rather make up my own mind regarding them, than to just be blindly led. That would be the height of intellectual dishonesty, wouldnt it? I couldn't honestly ask a Mulim to read the Bible and refuse to read the Koran.
Like I said, I believe Muhammed formulated Islam based of the God of the OT that he knew, and customized God to the needs of his time and place, including his culture which was very disparaging to women.
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Quote:"the OT God's presence among humans was confined to the ark of the covenant in the most Holy place, but that after the death of Jesus, each person who is a believer is now the Ark of the covenant and carries the presence of God "
Why would you believe that?
Didn't Enoch, Abraham, Jacob, Joseph, David, Daniel and others who "walked with God" have God with them? God's presence was with people in the Old Testament.
These people of faith had that faith because God's presence was not confined to the ark but was with people working on their hearts and minds and changing them into great men and women living for Him.
God isn't confined to any place, He is Omnipresent. He's not being carried around by believers. He is WITH the believers carrying them through life. He was with believers in the OT and He is with believers in modern times.
Yes, there were the prophets, but to the common person God was on the ark in the Temple. And the law was there in the ark. Anyone who approached God did so at their own peril. Recall the bells on the high priest when he went into the most holy once a year? Remember what happened to the God statue when the ark was stolen? Remember what happened the the man who touched the ark to steady it when it looked kind it would fall? God was a distant, violent and veangful being in those days. Why? I don't know. I would never presume to say that I know why God does what he does. The best of our intelligence is nothing in relation to a being who could create all that is.
All that said, I really enjoy reading your posts, as I do Johann's and Gregory's. Many of us are simply armchair historians, and/or theologians. Your input is highly valued by myself and a few others who respect your level of education in these areas.
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Though it may be true that the Muslims and the papal church served the same god. There is speculation that the papal church nurtured Mohammad into his position as spiritual leader of the Arabs in their hopes to destroy the Syrian Christian churches that were not lining up with papal policies. But then the "project" took on a life of it's own and "backfired".
Somewhere in a box in the garage I still have this book The Keys Of The Kingdom, if I remember the title. You may have read it, written by a Jesuit outlining the plans of the pope for world dominion. He analyses what approaches the pope plans to use on various churches and religions to get them all together. What struck me was that the pope will have much less problems with the Muslims than with Seventh-day Adventists. There seemed to be more similarities between the Roman Catholic Church and the Muslims than with SDA. Therefore it would be easier for the pope to come to an agreement with the Muslims.
It also struck me that the greatest problems of the pope with SDA did not seem to be neither the Sabbath nor that SDA regard him as Antichrist, but the fact that SDA give each person the freedom of choice if they want to be saved or not. This points to the Catholic doctrine that politicians and the military/police will eventually force the whole earth into one camp where no one escapes salvation. That, according to Catholic doctrine, is the Second Coming of Christ, not in the flesh, but in his church on earth.
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I attended the 2010 GEneral Conference in Atlanta. I purchased a couple of books written by a SDA who has an evangellistic ministry focused on Islamics in Islamic countries. In those books he presents the basic concepts of Christianity based upon the Quran. HIs thesis was that embeded in the Quran are basic Christian teachings.
I do not have thos bookd immediately available to me at this time. So, I cannot give you either his name or the title of the books. But, I will suggest that we need to be very careful as to how we describe Islam if our knowledge dependsentirely upon what others have saidabout it and we have not read anything written by Islamics. This would be the same as someone gaining their knowledge of the SDA Church by reading Canright and not reading SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTISTS BELIEVE . . .
The Quran is not an easy book to understand. In my reading of it, I would often find that after reading the commentary I had not fully understood the text that I had just read.
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I attended the 2010 GEneral Conference in Atlanta. I purchased a couple of books written by a SDA who has an evangellistic ministry focused on Islamics in Islamic countries. In those books he presents the basic concepts of Christianity based upon the Quran. HIs thesis was that embeded in the Quran are basic Christian teachings.
I do not have thos bookd immediately available to me at this time. So, I cannot give you either his name or the title of the books. But, I will suggest that we need to be very careful as to how we describe Islam if our knowledge dependsentirely upon what others have saidabout it and we have not read anything written by Islamics. This would be the same as someone gaining their knowledge of the SDA Church by reading Canright and not reading SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTISTS BELIEVE . . .
The Quran is not an easy book to understand. In my reading of it, I would often find that after reading the commentary I had not fully understood the text that I had just read.
Since you do not recall the name of the author not the titles, I cannot verify this, but I have a notion I have read reviews of those books, both pro and con. There are specialists among us who regard those ideas as very dangerous because they give a wrong impression of our own religion. But the ideas were, for a while, accepted by certain GC officials. I have no verification, but I just wonder if these books might be one of the reasons some have "preached" that Allah is also our God?
This is just a question, not a statement of opinion, but a question I feel needs to be examined in order to form an opinion. One of the reasons why it is healthy to have a forum where we can formulate questions, and even express our different opinions.
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The Protestant, Christian world is divided into three (3) groups as to how to work with Islamics. These three approaches differ considerably. On some aspects there is condomation of an approach that is used by others.
The approach that is most widely condemed is an approach that maintains much of the Islamic ritual.
The ministry author and his books, did not get into that aspect. IOW he was not discussing Islamic ritual. In what he had at the General Conference, he did not get into issues of life and practice.
His books were focused on the idea that embeded, perhaps deeply, in the Quran were deeply Christian teachings. Arabic was his native language, as I recall. He probably knew the Quran from beginning to end. In his books would take a fundamentally Christian teaching and build a verse by verse case for showing that the Christin teaching was enbeded in the Quran.
Of course, there was much that he could not prove.
His idea was that once Islamics became convinced that the Quran taught this basic Christian teaching he would be able to lead them into greter understanding and acceptance of Christianity and accpetance of Christ as a Savior.
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No matter which method is used it is extremely difficult to lead Muslims to Christ. I have, however, baptized some Muslims in Africa, but they were mostly young students attending our schools, and they lived in areas that were not dominated by Muslims.
I have also read the Quran in an English translation. I got the impression where I was that the real Muslims will only read it in the original language, and they claimed that it is not as valid in any other language. Muslim schools for boys were taught Arabic. I do not recall any Muslim school for girls then and there. The attitude seemed to be, Why waste money on schools for girls? Since they are inferior to the boys they can learn all they need to know from their mothers.
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Islamics claim that the Quran is that actual "word of God" as given in Arabic. Therefore, to read the "word of God" one must read Arabic.
As most living people do not read Arabic and to increase knowledge about Islam, the Quran is translated into other languages. Official translations are prepared by Islamic scholars to attempt to be as accurate as posssible. Those who wish to learn about Islam should be careful to read approved translations. E.G. In the United States, the most common English translation is prepared by an Islamic group of scholars in Saudi Arabia. I can not speak for other languages.
But, these translations are not considered to be the "word of Allah" as that exists only in Arabic.
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It is interesting in this connection that some Christians only accept a translation, the KJV, as the word of God. Is that because that translation makes it easier for them to hold on to the Catholic tradition of ordination?
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If this turns into a discussion on ordination, it may need to be moved.
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I thought we weren't going to be turning other topics into WO discussions anymore.
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It is actually against the rules to take the thread completely off topic, therefore, let us not post anything further in response to the last sentence in Johann's post and get back on topic.
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OK.
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Though it may be true that the Muslims and the papal church served the same god. There is speculation that the papal church nurtured Mohammad into his position as spiritual leader of the Arabs in their hopes to destroy the Syrian Christian churches that were not lining up with papal policies. But then the "project" took on a life of it's own and "backfired".
Somewhere in a box in the garage I still have this book The Keys Of The Kingdom, if I remember the title. You may have read it, written by a Jesuit outlining the plans of the pope for world dominion. He analyses what approaches the pope plans to use on various churches and religions to get them all together. What struck me was that the pope will have much less problems with the Muslims than with Seventh-day Adventists. There seemed to be more similarities between the Roman Catholic Church and the Muslims than with SDA. Therefore it would be easier for the pope to come to an agreement with the Muslims.
It also struck me that the greatest problems of the pope with SDA did not seem to be neither the Sabbath nor that SDA regard him as Antichrist, but the fact that SDA give each person the freedom of choice if they want to be saved or not. This points to the Catholic doctrine that politicians and the military/police will eventually force the whole earth into one camp where no one escapes salvation. That, according to Catholic doctrine, is the Second Coming of Christ, not in the flesh, but in his church on earth.
I believe you are refering to "The Keys of This Blood" by Malachi Martin.
Indeed he wrote of the papal view of islam in the Globalist battle:
"In reckoning the future of Islam, Pope John Paul takes into account that as a genuinely religious faith, it preserves certain fundamental truths that the Holy Spirit reveals to all people of good will; and that, in God's providence, Islam can be a threshold from which its adherents can be prepared to accept the only historical revelation made by God in this world. There will come a day, John Paul believes, when the heart of Islam--already attuned to the figures of Christ and of Christ's Mother, Mary -- will receive the illumination it needs." Page 285
Of Seventh-day Adventists he writes:
"Among the Christian Minimalists, the opposition is virulent and has a long history. Despite the mutual differences, for instance, between the Advent Christian Church, the Church of God of Abrahamic Faith, and the Seventh-Day Adventists, thery are at one in the opposition to Rome as the "Red Whore of the Mediterranean" Given their separate and separatist perspectives on the world, in one sense they are uneasy allies at best....their origins unite them in a particular point of view concerning Pope John Paul. They all arose within the context of rebellion against the authority and privileged teaching power of the Roman Church. pag 286
I have another book:
"Queen of Rome and Queen of Islam, Queen of All"
by Jim Tetlow, Roger Oakland, Brad Myers
and they show how the Muslims are already in tune with Christ and "Christ's Mother".
In the Koran (and those who have read it from cover to cover can verify) Jesus is almost exclusively referred to as "Jesus son of Mary". Never as "Son of God".
Yet the Koran holds both Jesus and Mary in high esteem. Jesus as a "prophet" and Mary" the greatest of all women."
The book documents how muslims have been flocking to see Apparitions claiming to be "Mary".
It's thesis is that spiritualism (through signs and wonders connected with the Apparition claiming to be Mary) will unite the religions. The "mother/child" goddess seems to transend all religions, thus striking a note of unity that can be merged with "signs and wonders" to bring the world into unity .
The late Archbishop Fulton Sheen is quoted as saying:
"It is our firm belief that the fears some entertain concerning the Moslems are not to be realized, but that Islam instead, will eventually be converted to Christianity -- and in a way that even some of our missionaries never suspect. it is our belief that this will happen not through the direct teaching of Christianity but through a summoning of the moslems to a veneration of the mother of God. [The World's First Love--Mary, Mother of God, p. 204 as quoted on page 35 in "Queen of Rome and Queen of islam, Queen of All"]
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In the Koran (and those who have read it from cover to cover can verify) Jesus is almost exclusively referred to as "Jesus son of Mary". Never as "Son of God".
Yet the Koran holds both Jesus and Mary in high esteem. Jesus as a "prophet" and Mary" the greatest of all women."
Correct.
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It should be clear beyond doubt that Johann does reference THE KEYS OF THE BLOOD. The context tells us that.
However, as a point of interest, THE KEYS OF THE KINGDOM is the title of at least six (6) books, a Holywood movie, a music CD, and much more. :)
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It should be clear beyond doubt that Johann does reference THE KEYS OF THE BLOOD. The context tells us that.
However, as a point of interest, THE KEYS OF THE KINGDOM is the title of at least six (6) books, a Holywood movie, a music CD, and much more. :)
You are correct. About ten years ago I gave most of my library to the union ministerial secretary in case some of the younger ministers would like to have some. Most of those I wanted to keep went into boxes and have remained there since. One of these days I have to give them to our local library. Used books these days are hardly worth a dime a piece, probably because most information is available on the Internet.
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I know not all will agree with this...
Remember the Koran only teaches the seventh-day Sabbath, and the highlight is that Jesus will return and judge the Nations.
They are waiting for the "People of the BOOK' to arise and show them how to interpret Bible Prophecy to them about the last days.
This was a quick production for me, would like to do it over.
https://vimeo.com/41372775
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There is an inscription engraved on the outside of the Dome of the Rock which reads "Allah has no son".
That should tell one all he needs to know.
Always remember that the title 'BAAL' from the Old Testament literally translates to 'Lord'. Just because someone calls an entity the 'Creator' or 'God' in his language, it does not mean this is a reference to the God of the Bible.
Those who preach that Allah is JEHOVAH are being used by the enemy for a work of deception and rebellion, whether knowingly or unknowingly.
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You have not even seen it.
God has NO SON... God is his only son. HE was not created he has always been.
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Voice
Do you believe Christ has not always been but rather created?
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Voice
Do you believe Christ has not always been but rather created?
I know full well what you are trying to do. Your question is structured incorrectly as it only gives me an option to choose error. Such are the tactics of the enemy of souls.
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REALLY?
Deceptions are often made by people who do not fully declare who they are..
I am Stan Jensen, Bob Pickle says who he is, DF says who he is..
Who are you
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Seems things are going off topic.
The point is -- Islam denies the divinity of Christ. To them Christ is a great prophet, nothing more.
They, like the Jews of old understand that to claim that Christ is the "Son of God" was "making Him God".
1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denies the Father and the Son.
2:23 Whosoever denies the Son, the same has not the Father: (but) he that acknowledges the Son has the Father also.
2:24 Let that therefore abide in you, which you have heard from the beginning. If that which you have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, you also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
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The point is -- Islam denies the divinity of Christ. To them Christ is a great prophet, nothing more.
Correct. No one who has any understanding of Islam could deny the above.
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I listened to the video and it raised questions in my mind.
But first I want to assure you that I think the man being interviewed is honest and following his convictions, so please don't think I'm judging him. He is a Muslim who has come to the Adventist church and is growing (like we all need to learn and grow). The part of reaching out to befriend, respect, and share with Muslims (and every person in our sphere of influence) is good.
But some of the things that were said concern me, if they are being used to convince Adventists that they are in actuality just "better Muslims".
Yes, the man was attracted to some of the aspects of our life style -- no pork, paying tithe
Great, these things are good things! But these things are not the gospel, they won't save anyone.
We are not "good muslims" expecting that our health message and tithe paying and other life style commitments are going to save us.
This man was not about to give up "being a Muslim", he kept insisting we were actually Muslims, not the other way around. To that I must disagree.
Yes, Jesus is a good friend. I'm glad this man feels this way about Jesus. But does he believe Jesus is HIS SAVIOR? That didn't come out in the talk, maybe he does, but it didn't come out in the talk. I noticed too, that he quickly dismissed any connection between the term "son of God" meaning Christ was Divine. But rather stated Christ was a son of God by virtue of His submission to God.
The Islamic religion does not recognize the need for a Savior, as far as I can tell. The Muslim believes God has mercy in giving life and a chance to mankind to mend his ways, but in the end a person is able, through careful and obedient participation in the obligations outlined in the sacred writings to achieve a level of personal righteousness that will qualify him for the reward .
Jesus death and resurrection? What does it mean to a Muslim?
"The Qur'an tells us that some of the Israelites rejected Jesus, and conspired to kill him, but Allah (God) rescued Jesus and raised him to Himself. Allah will cause Jesus to descend again, at which time Jesus will confirm his true teachings and everyone will believe in him as he is and as the Qur'an teaches about him." (IslamInfo-com)
So there is no atonement-- no Savior taking upon himself our sins and dying in our place that we might live. "Allah rescued Jesus" This is taken from Sura 4:158 and is explained in various ways, "The teaching is that Christ was not crucified nor killed by the Jews, notwithstanding certain apparent circumstances which produced that illusion in the minds of some of his enemies" (Abdullah, Yusuf Ali)
And the second coming --
is it at all like we believe? (the picture on the video showed a familiar second coming picture, but is this how they believe)?
According to some Islamic teaching:
"He will descend on a Jamaat (group) that will be righteous at the time and comprising of 800 men and 400 women. The people will be preparing for war at the time against Dajjal (the anti-Christ). It will be time for Fajr prayers, and Imam Mahdi (a descendant of the Prophet Mohammed) will be the Amir (leader). From the darkness of the dawn, a sound will suddenly be heard that "one who listens to your pleas has come" -- the righteous people will look everywhere and their eyes will fall on Isa (A.S.)[Jesus]. Briefly, at the time of Fajr, Isa [Jesus] will descend. When descending, Isa's [Jesus] hands will be on the shoulders of two angels (according to another source (Kab Abrar), a cloud will carry him). On their insistence Hadhrat Isa [Jesus] will introduce himself. He will inquire about their enthusiasm and thoughts on Jihad against Dajjal (anti-Christ)....
After the completion of Fajr Salaat (congregational dawn prayers), Hadhrat Isa (Jesus) will open the door behind him where Dajjal accompanied by 70,000 Yahudis (Jews) will be. He will indicate with his hand to move away between him (Hadhrat Isa (Jesus) and Dajjal. Dajjal will then see Hadhrat Isa (Jesus). At that time every Kafir on whom the breath of Hadhrat Isa (Jesus) will reach, will die. His breath will reach up to the distance of his eyesight. The Muslims will then come down from the mountains and break loose on the army of Dajjal. There will be war, Dajjal will retreat, and Hadhrat Isa (Jesus) will pursue Dajjal. Hadhrat Isa (Jesus) will have two flexible swords and one shield with him and with these he will kill Dajjal at the Gate of Hudd. He willl show the Muslims the blood of Dajjal which will get on his shield. Eventually the Yahudis will be selected and killed. The swine will be killed and the cross broken. People will revert to Islam. Wars will end, and people will return to their respective countries. One Jamaat (group) of Muslims will remain in his service and companionship. ...
After his descension on earth, Hadhrat Isa (Jesus) will marry. He will have children, and he will remain on earth 19 years after marriage. He will pass away and Muslims will perform his Janaza Salaat and bury him next to Rasulullah (Sallallahu Alayhi Wasallam). (Tirmidhi)
from: Hadhrat Esa (Alaihis Salaam): The Truth Revealed (http://www.islam.tc/prophecies/jesus.html)
and Major Signs of Qiyamat
by Mufti Afzal Hoosein Elias (May Allah reward him for his work in producing these kitaabs, aameen.)
from the original (with references): "Aalalaat-e-Qiyyamat aur Nuzul-e-Eesa."
Yet another commentator states:
"The absence of any clear reference to the return of Jesus in the Qur`an and our earliest source of ahadith makes it difficult to say that the Prophet Muhammad taught the belief in the return of Jesus.... it is doubtful that these traditions go back to the Prophet of Islam. They should be rather regarded as the views of some early Muslims, which, as we shall see later, nevertheless have some value and validity.
He then writes this comment:
"the Muslim tradition views this return as taking place in the service of Islam. As a follower of the Prophet Muhammad and he will bring Christians and Jews under the fold of Islam by overcoming factors that have so far prevented this. In case of Christians, these factors are: the doctrine of redemption through the cross, ....Jesus upon his return will drive home to Christians the Islamic message that he was no more divine than Moses and other prophets, that his blood had nothing to do with man’s salvation and that the law is not nailed on the cross but is only adapted to changing circumstances." (Islamic View of the Coming/Return of Jesus By: Dr. Ahmad Shafaat)
All of this is vastely different from what we believe.
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The JOURNAL OF THE ADVENTIST THEOLOGICAL SOCIETY is a professional, peer reviewed scholarly journal which is intended to represent the conservative branch of Adventist scholars. The latest issue, Vol. 22, Number 2, 2011 (yes, 2011) contains an interesting article, written by Dr. Larry Lichtenwalter, pastor of the Village SDA Church in Berrien springs, Michigan.
His article is entitled: “The Biblical Witness of the Character of God in Relation to the Qur’an,” and is printed on pages 106 – 153. I cite it here as it covers the discussion that Dedication has started.
Here is what the author says on pages 107 & 108:
There are many similarities and differences between biblical and qur’anic thought about the being and character of God. On the one hand the concept of God in the Qur’an is significantly like the concept of God in the Bible. Many of the same attributes of God are asserted in both. . . . As a result, Muslims and Christians use similar words to describe God. So much so that for some, Allah is merely the personal name for God in Islam, . . . .there should be no distinction between Allah and the English word “God.” . . . . Despite such God-affirming similarities, the Bible and the Qur’an often construe God . . . . in noticeably different ways and perspectives that make for significant differences both in theology and practice. The divergence is profound. As a result, Muslims have a fundamentally different understanding of God compared to Christians. They lay stress on different aspects of God than Christians do. And Muslim faith and experience are remarkably different from Christian faith and experience. The reality is that the use of the word “God” for Muslims does not create the same mental picture nor produce the same response as it does for Christians. . . . . Are they the same God? The answer is both Yes and No!
NOTE: I cannot begint to sum the thinking of the writed in the quite above. I suggest that you read the whole article to learn more about what he said. You may contact him directly at: lichtenwalter@gmail.com