Advent Talk
Theology Category => Doctrinal Discussions => Topic started by: bonnie on June 01, 2008, 01:03:58 PM
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Flip Side of the Coin.
Many times we have batted around "the person wronged must forgive" There is no question aboutt hat.
What about the person doing the wrong,What must they do to be forgiven.
I took a sentence fromRed Falcons post...........
If we hang onto a wrong it will eat away at our soul poisoning whatever spirtual healing God wishes to impart on us
Instead of focusing on the wronged person and hanging onto a wrong....
Will a wrong we are guilty of and hang onto poison our soul???
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Flip Side of the Coin.
Many times we have batted around "the person wronged must forgive" There is no question about hat.
What about the person doing the wrong,What must they do to be forgiven.
I took a sentence fromRed Falcons post...........
If we hang onto a wrong it will eat away at our soul poisoning whatever spiritual healing God wishes to impart on us
Instead of focusing on the wronged person and hanging onto a wrong....
Will a wrong we are guilty of and hang onto poison our soul???
An attempt to set the record straight over the recent and all to familiar controversy over this topic. This is not IMO, even a serious issue with those that make a controversy over it. Red Falcon, I firmly believe is one that I crossed paths with right in the beginning. And it seems to continue
Forgiveness is either a much needed and healing concept or in the hands of some becomes a most abusive biblical tool to use against those you see as your enemy.
Forgiveness does not automatically follow on the heels of wrong doing. Forgiveness is not only used to describe the biblical actions of those wronged. It is something that is needed by all, some more than others. The typical response is the wronged must forgive. This must be voluntary and freely given. It is not something that relieves the guilty of seeking forgiveness and true repentence
To begin the backward approach to forgiveness is very damaging. To begin with the wronged must forgive is more damaging than most that profess this know.Some just flat out don't care how damaging as long as they can carry out their agenda . My experience mirrors that of most that have dealt with Red Falcon and others like him. When I first turned to the internet looking for information to help my son,the first thing that happened was the preaching of forgiveness, followed by threats by same in Pm's that I would never get by with what I was doing.
The accusation and the blame was laid to me because I was angry. And I was, not even so much at the guilty party,as the big yawn this behavior was treated with, and that somehow if I only forgave it would be all better. Not even sure yet what was all to be forgiven, the demand was to forgive. Every day it was waiting for the next shoe to drop and drop it did. Forgiveness was not a refusal, you simply had no idea yet what you were even dealing with. Still trying to make sense of what happened,there are those that are demanding forgive
The same refrain that has been raised here more than once.
In the early stages of looking to the internet, one man, ONLY ONE, understood and did not preach. Did not condemn,did not blame. NOt good numbers when you think the vast majority was SDA. Did not begin with the backward solution. Forgive and then we will forgive you for being a victim mentality.
It is a topic that needs to be understood. It is something that a victim of abuse must come to terms with before they can have anything resembling a normal life. To place the backward sequence in the general area,the first place that visitors come to,only does the reverse of what some claim to want.
There is no place in the vocabulary of some for even considering what the bible dictates the guilty must do, and how the must ask forgiveness. Not before a victim can forgive, but because they sincerely repent.
Their repentance is a spererate issue from forgiveness by their victim. Unfortunately, most guilty of abuse, neither know or care whether their victim forgives them. But for the victim to find any peace, they need to be able to do that. Or, forgiveness is used by those not in a position to offer forgiveness to browbeat the victim. Usually as a means to keep them quiet.
Forgiveness does not result from others demanding, ridiculing or condemning the victim for not forgiving on a timetable set by someone else. Or by the terms set down by those preaching.
Instead of making it impossible to reach those that badly need to forgive for their own emotional well being, to say nothing of eternity, the general area is somewhere that a visitor,someone that may badly need some affirmation that it is not all their fault can be comfortable on this topic. Not feel like they are unacceptable because they have not been able to forgive according to the dictates of others.
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You seem to be unveiling some of our pre-conceived convictions, touching on some aspects of this question which seems unexplored. It should no unsettle any of us discussing the subject, looking at it from a different angle that we are so used to.
Some times we think that something that in itself is very good, cannot be misused?
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You seem to be unveiling some of our preconceived convictions, touching on some aspects of this question which seems unexplored. It should no unsettle any of us discussing the subject, looking at it from a different angle that we are so used to.
Some times we think that something that in itself is very good, cannot be misused?
Love and forgiveness are two words, when used with a hidden agenda, are very cruel and very damaging
Many like to settle and dwell on the end result, It really isn't much different than dragging someone to the baptismal tank and explaining afterwards what they joined.
The way forgiveness is used almost gives the guilty a sense of entitlement to be forgiven and observers or parties a easy way out. It is easy as a non involved party to be free and frequent with the instruction to forgive. Requires nothing from them as long as the victim has learned their lesson and have taken the right steps.
Matters little in the scheme of things if it is a serious abuse,with the very real potential to harm others as well, or just that someone has badly hurt feelings,the reaction is the same. Leap over all and get down to the business of forgiveness. If someone has such a great burden for this issue,why do we always leave out the party of the first part.
Is there the same concern for this...Will a wrong we are guilty of and hang onto poison our soul???
Not in place of concern over the injured party and their spiritual well being. Alongside or maybe in the face of serious harm that can affect others,even first in the attempt to foster reconciliation or forgiveness.
When someone keeps getting hit over the head,forgiveness comes pretty hard.
When is the last time someone actually took the very same concern to the guilty party and preached and instructed them? That is not asked as in meaning,Well He did it first It is asked as in,Are you as concetrned about the spiritual well being of the guilty party as you appear to be towards the wronged
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I am struck by your reference to dragging someone to the baptismal tank and explaining afterwards.
Do you feel the baptismal tank is used by some as a cure for all. Personally I am convince the baptismal tanks is greatly misused by some of our brethren. I have a notion that re baptism can often be a curse and not a blessing, because some use it as a valve to be reused when you feel you have done something wrong.
Our would you rather not have me taking the discussion in that direction?
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I am struck by your reference to dragging someone to the baptismal tank and explaining afterwards.
Do you feel the baptismal tank is used by some as a cure for all. Personally I am convince the baptismal tanks is greatly misused by some of our brethren. I have a notion that re baptism can often be a curse and not a blessing, because some use it as a valve to be reused when you feel you have done something wrong.
Our would you rather not have me taking the discussion in that direction?
Ypu are more than welcome in this discussion.
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There are times when spiritual healing is a must, and where baptism is not the cure. Words of Scripture might not then be the right medication, where a hearing ear is more essential.
Someone has pointed out in another thread that even though our relationship to Christ means all to us, that relationship has no meaning without a relationship with other human beings. Some people need to discover Christ through the relationship with another human being where love and forgiveness is a living part of the relationship
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1.I am struck by your reference to dragging someone to the baptismal tank and explaining afterwards.
Do you feel the baptismal tank is used by some as a cure for all. Personally I am convince the baptismal tanks is greatly misused by some of our brethren.
I agree. Just get them that far and all is well. Same for the very important topic of forgiveness. Eliminate that pesky middle man and get to the end of the chase
I have yet to see where that topic is treated in it's entirety. Focusing only on what the injured party must do.
IMO,it is the easy and cheap way to witness to someone. If we can show how forgiving we would be in the shoe's of the other guy, God will certainly forgive our itty-bitty transgressions. After all we have professed how we know what we should do in the shoe's of the injured party.
Some seem to have this tremendous burden to reach others with the necessity of forgiving those that have wronged them. I have often wondered where this tremendous burden is for the one committing the injury. Both actions or inaction can and will effect a person's salvation.
Concentrating on the responsibility only of the injured party places a tremendous burden on one that may already be really struggling. If a serious wrong has been committed, they can very likely be dealing with major problems created by that. Then you load the responsibility for making it all better by forgiveness at a time many cannot even think that far ahead. They are condemned if they are angry, as that sin is at least as bad, if not more so than the wrong that has been committed.
There are other important aspects to the topic of forgiveness besides the blanket forgiveness some seem to want others to do. You will rarely if ever see that side of the coin touched by those that preach 7 x 70
For either what the other guy does as far as accepting or giving an apology,is immaterial to what happens for either side when sincerely offered.
It is not that the injured party needs to extract apology or retribution first,. Most of the time it seems as if there is no repentance for wrong doing. That does not alter the Christian responsibility. It does not alter the responsibility of the one doing the wrong either. He may never be forgiven. There may even be attempts to extract revenge,even tho there has been sincere repentance. Doesn't matter. The guilty must be acknowledged with the same level of concern. If not, I don't believe the "christian concern or preaching" is genuine.
2.I have a notion that re baptism can often be a curse and not a blessing, because some use it as a valve to be reused when you feel you have done something wrong.
I think re- baptism is quite often used as a "See This". Used in much the same way as a generic apology,or as my dad would say, an apology with disclaimers,or as addressing someone as brother or sister. All little signs that tell the world how we want the world to perceive us.
The reality can be quite different.
I have waited and seems no interest in anyone wanting to begin a topic in the appropriate section the on christian obligation of forgiveness.
Both are equally important. But you cannot sincerely care about one part, without the same care for the other. Both parties involved have a salvation to lose.
Nor should the burden first or only placed on the injured party with the expectation as long as they forgive it will be all better. Many times it is not better, but gets progressively worse as it does not stop anyone's behavior.
If you only express concern for the injured party to forgive, it is pretty selective in whose salvation you are concerned over
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There are times when spiritual healing is a must, and where baptism is not the cure. Words of Scripture might not then be the right medication, where a hearing ear is more essential.
Someone has pointed out in another thread that even though our relationship to Christ means all to us, that relationship has no meaning without a relationship with other human beings. Some people need to discover Christ through the relationship with another human being where love and forgiveness is a living part of the relationship
The hearing ear is maybe the most important of all. But,and I admit I am a little cynical at this point,I don't believe the hearing ear gives the recognition those preaching want.
True christian concern has the same care and concern over the salvation of the guilty as does the injured party.
Yet the concern shown is for one. The one that is easiest to deal with, without getting your own hands dirty.
Forgiveness sometimes comes hard. It is not the immediate response ,and takes more than a little soul searching, especially if it is your children or family that is harmed.
Concentrating on the forgiveness first and only can do tremendous harm.
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Did Jesus ever get His own hands dirty?
The answer to that question might not be what people think!!!
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Did Jesus ever get His own hands dirty?
The answer to that question might not be what people think!!!
I think he did. When chasing the money changers from the temple,he did not say first and only forgive as it continued, I think he was a little involved
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Did Jesus ever get His own hands dirty?
The answer to that question might not be what people think!!!
Of cource Jesus got his hands dirty. He was a carpenter was he not. I do not know a carpenter yet who did not get his hands dirty in a literal sence. ;D ;D ;D
I know I know that is now what you meant. ;)
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When Pilate washed his hands, what happened to the hands of Jesus?
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When Pilate washed his hands, what happened to the hands of Jesus?
They were pierced for our iniquity and transgression. Jesus literally became sin for us so that he could make us righteous before God. Hands get no dirtier than that.
In Christ alone...
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When Pilate washed his hands, what happened to the hands of Jesus?
They were pierced for our iniquity and transgression. Jesus literally became sin for us so that he could make us righteous before God. Hands get no dirtier than that.
In Christ alone...
This means what in terms of what we are to do concerning forgiveness by those that are guilty of harming others,or the path the injured party must take?? Not only for their own emotional well being,but both for their own salvation
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They were pierced for our iniquity and transgression. Jesus literally became sin for us so that he could make us righteous before God. Hands get no dirtier than that.
In Christ alone...
This means what in terms of what we are to do concerning forgiveness by those that are guilty of harming others,or the path the injured party must take?? Not only for their own emotional well being,but both for their own salvation
Well, first of all, it shows that WE are the one's 'guilty of harming others'. It is OUR 'iniquity and transgression' that put Jesus on the cross.
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Well, first of all, it shows that WE are the one's 'guilty of harming others'. It is OUR 'iniquity and transgression' that put Jesus on the cross.
So is this your answer,"we have all sinned"? Leave all as it is because all are guilty
Would you give this response to someone coming to you ,explaining a great wrong he had done and wanting to know what he needed to do??
Don't worry about it,WE are the ones guilty of harming others
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So is this your answer,"we have all sinned"? Leave all as it is because all are guilty
No.
Would you give this response to someone coming to you ,explaining a great wrong he had done and wanting to know what he needed to do??
Don't worry about it,WE are the ones guilty of harming others
I don't understand the motive behind your questions...and why do you have such a resistance to forgiving? What happened?
In Christ alone...
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Don't worry about it,WE are the ones guilty of harming others
I don't understand the motive behind your questions...and why do you have such a resistance to forgiving? What happened?
Well, first of all, it shows that WE are the one's 'guilty of harming others'. It is OUR 'iniquity and transgression' that put Jesus on the cross
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There is no motive. I am not oppessed to forgiveness, there is nothing wrong with that,and everything for it.
I have not said one word to indicate that is so.
I wonder about the motives of those that concentrate on one side of an issue,and generally starting at the end.
It is not a "he hit firstso he has to make it right" sort of issue with me.
It is simply you and many others begin wth a victim, someone that has been hurt or treated grossly unfairly. All scripture recited deals with only one part of the issue and leaves the rest out. Why???
Is the guilty not as important and worthy of so much preaching on the subject? Is the same concern expressed for someone guilty of something
Is the concern of salvation for either party real ?? The wronged party must certainly learn to forgive. It can take some time but they need to do so. You have posted on that more than once. There are those that have been doing same for years.
Do you have the same care for the salvation that those that have done harm,especiallyserious harm. Life altering harm? Or don't they matter as "all have sinned" so what is the big deal.
Someone assaults me,I am told to forgive. After all everyone has sinned
The party that assaulted me is told "All Have Sinned", we will write your sin quietly in the sand
The quilty party is only to happy with that and really is quite free to do continue. After all, the one he assaulted was told "All Have Sinned"
How do you suppose it sounds and it seems like it not only sounds but is a one way responsibilty and most have only the wronged party that is their concern
The man that beats his wife will be very happy to hear "We have all sinned.....We are going to quietly write those sins in the sand as he listens to his wife being told .You must not be angry and "you are no better than he"
And Yes before you go there I know all are of equal concern to God
Simple question, why tackle the end of the problem before the beginning?
Let's do this one more time before you try to ascribe motives again. I have no motive other than this is something that has always baffled me.
It never seems to fail that the man(general) that beats his wife or robs a bank never gets this sermon of foreness. The forgiveness he must seek. The sermon is on the abused wife and banker instead. Others rushing in to make sure they know that,
That is either no cares about the one that must seek forgiveness or it is covered under "we have all sinned" umbrella
While the wronged party is not
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Dear Bonnie and Ozzie:
This is just my take on this subject, not an answer per se, but a suggestion to those people who concentrate so heavily on the victim and how he/she must forgive. :dunno:
When you have dealt with the perpetrator guilty of the abuse and their responsibility to ask for forgiveness as they acknowledge the gravity of their actions and the pain, both the physical and/or the emotional, then and ONLY THEN do you have the even the suggestion of a right to require the victim and/or their family or the church family to forgive. And that 'right' is questionable at best!
Frankly, I have been appalled at those who have the temerity to suggest that you and Ozzie and the others are out of line with your firm desire to deal with this subject in the Adventist Church. It is l-o-o-o-ng overdue, period! I am in total agreement with all of you. :thumbsup: And I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that if Dr. Charles Wittschiebe, the founder (I think) of the Pastoral Counselling Department in the Seminary when they came to Berrien Springs, were still alive he would have been one of the most vocal in helping us deal with this problem and we would be much further along to having a reasonable solution to it.
GrammieT
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PLEASE SEEK TO UNDERSTAND BEFORE ATTACKING...THANKS!
It seems to me that this topic is on a tangent on this whole site. I don't know what happened in the discussions of the past, but I disagree with the conclusions some have reached with regards to forgiveness and who should forgive who, and who shouldn't forgive who, and who should or shouldn't be able to say whether forgiveness is appropriate in a given situation, etc., at least as far as anyone who is a Christ-follower is concerned. I believe forgiveness is appropriate ALL the time, no matter which supposed side of the victim-abused/perpetrator-abuser 'scale' one may be on.
Someone explain to me how you can understand the Gospel and then come to the conclusion that we don't have to be forgiven of our GRAVE sin against God, AND/OR that we don't have to forgive others as God has forgiven us through Christ? What sin against ANY of us personally as Christ-followers excuses us from forgiving as we have been forgiven? And what part of forgiving comes from the 'goodness' of our own hearts? Do any of you believe forgiveness originates from us? The Gospel (true Gospel) CLEARLY shows the need for forgiveness across the board, or on both 'sides' of the fence. Is there some clause somewhere that excuses Christians who have been abused in some form from the Holy Spirit producing forgiveness in them? Should Christ NOT have asked the Father to forgive those who put him on the cross? Or did the abuse Jesus face NOT measure up to the abuse we face today?
Now, for someone who isn't connected to Christ, has not been saved by grace through faith in Christ alone, I would expect that person to take that position (not having even the suggestion of a right to require anyone to forgive). Not forgiving would be the natural way of the world. However, with the Holy Spirit living IN us producing HIS good fruit, and HIS good works we don't operate by the world's standard. It's not even what WE 'do', rather it is what God does through believers supernaturally. If we're unwilling to forgive then maybe we don't have a clue what it is we've been forgiven of.
Finally, I would appreciate those of you who disagree to address the words of MY post if you disagree with ME. I believe I've caught some shrapnel from discussions I was never a part of. So if you're going to virtually slap me, slap me for MY posts. For example...I've read half a dozen times already that SOME PEOPLE equate ANGER with a lack of or unwillingness to forgive...THAT DIDN'T COME FROM ANY OF MY POSTS! Anger, while it needs to be kept in check, is a NORMAL part of HEALING and grieving. So take that up with those who have expressed that thought! I have not expressed it, nor will I. Address MY words, not YOUR assumptions. I have experienced significant loss and significant abuse and have experienced healing and release from the bondage associated with both. You can deal with your own issues in whatever way you wish. For me (and many others I meet with) forgiving those involved played a major role in my own personal healing, even though it often took TIME to experience the benefit.
For those who have never experienced this I wouldn't expect them to be able to understand. But just because they haven't forgiven and been released doesn't take away from the Biblical counsel to forgive others just as we have been forgiven. If we don't feel we 'need' to forgive others then maybe we don't realize the death sentence that has already been pronounced on our own heads and what we have been forgiven of. I deserve death, yet Jesus has forgiven me COMPLETELY, with his own blood! I don't have any excuses NOT to forgive those who backstab me or wrong me or abuse me. What are your excuses and how do they add up to the Gospel? Please, enlighten me and PLEASE, USE SCRIPTURE! My opinion means NOTHING, except that it lines up with Scripture.
In CHRIST alone...
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PLEASE SEEK TO UNDERSTAND BEFORE ATTACKING...THANKS!
It seems to me that this topic is on a tangent on this whole site. I don't know what happened in the discussions of the past, but I disagree with the conclusions some have reached with regards to forgiveness and who should forgive who, and who shouldn't forgive who, and who should or shouldn't be able to say whether forgiveness is appropriate in a given situation, etc., at least as far as anyone who is a Christ-follower is concerned. I believe forgiveness is appropriate ALL the time, no matter which supposed side of the victim-abused/perpetrator-abuser 'scale' one may be on.
Someone explain to me how you can understand the Gospel and then come to the conclusion that we don't have to be forgiven of our GRAVE sin against God, AND/OR that we don't have to forgive others as God has forgiven us through Christ? What sin against ANY of us personally as Christ-followers excuses us from forgiving as we have been forgiven? And what part of forgiving comes from the 'goodness' of our own hearts? Do any of you believe forgiveness originates from us? The Gospel (true Gospel) CLEARLY shows the need for forgiveness across the board, or on both 'sides' of the fence. Is there some clause somewhere that excuses Christians who have been abused in some form from the Holy Spirit producing forgiveness in them? Should Christ NOT have asked the Father to forgive those who put him on the cross? Or did the abuse Jesus face NOT measure up to the abuse we face today?
Now, for someone who isn't connected to Christ, has not been saved by grace through faith in Christ alone, I would expect that person to take that position (not having even the suggestion of a right to require anyone to forgive). Not forgiving would be the natural way of the world. However, with the Holy Spirit living IN us producing HIS good fruit, and HIS good works we don't operate by the world's standard. It's not even what WE 'do', rather it is what God does through believers supernaturally. If we're unwilling to forgive then maybe we don't have a clue what it is we've been forgiven of.
Finally, I would appreciate those of you who disagree to address the words of MY post if you disagree with ME. I believe I've caught some shrapnel from discussions I was never a part of. So if you're going to virtually slap me, slap me for MY posts. For example...I've read half a dozen times already that SOME PEOPLE equate ANGER with a lack of or unwillingness to forgive...THAT DIDN'T COME FROM ANY OF MY POSTS! Anger, while it needs to be kept in check, is a NORMAL part of HEALING and grieving. So take that up with those who have expressed that thought! I have not expressed it, nor will I. Address MY words, not YOUR assumptions. I have experienced significant loss and significant abuse and have experienced healing and release from the bondage associated with both. You can deal with your own issues in whatever way you wish. For me (and many others I meet with) forgiving those involved played a major role in my own personal healing, even though it often took TIME to experience the benefit.
For those who have never experienced this I wouldn't expect them to be able to understand. But just because they haven't forgiven and been released doesn't take away from the Biblical counsel to forgive others just as we have been forgiven. If we don't feel we 'need' to forgive others then maybe we don't realize the death sentence that has already been pronounced on our own heads and what we have been forgiven of. I deserve death, yet Jesus has forgiven me COMPLETELY, with his own blood! I don't have any excuses NOT to forgive those who backstab me or wrong me or abuse me. What are your excuses and how do they add up to the Gospel? Please, enlighten me and PLEASE, USE SCRIPTURE! My opinion means NOTHING, except that it lines up with Scripture.
In CHRIST alone...
Freeindeed
There are none so blind as those who do not want to see and none so deaf as those who do not want to hear. This has nothing to do with any 'cross-fire' you are referring to. It is all about understanding the plight of a 'victim', where the last thing they need is for anyone to be jamming Scripture down their throats, in inappropriate situations.
Just take this scenario. Spending just one night talking with a young woman aged 27 who has been on the streets since the age of 9. Her parents were killed and she went to live with her sister and b-i-l, who sexually abused her till she ran away; aged 11. As she went on from one devastating relationship to another; one abusive relationship to another, what lessons about life do you think she learnt? Do you think that even someone who cared about this person could get close to even sit beside her? Not on your life? It took weeks to gain confidence enough that another female even could sit on the same garden seat as this young woman. So, where is the place to push Scripture in cases like this?
Did Jesus attend to people's physical needs first or did He ram Scripture down their necks first? Should we not follow His example in all things?
The scenario that I have mentioned, is but one horrifying story that I am very familiar with. There are so many more than you just wouldn't even understand, as demonstrated by your self-righteous, pragmatic stance that the ONLY way is to show people Jesus. We need to show compassion and show people we care. We need to LISTEN instead of telling people how they should feel. In that way, people see Jesus THROUGH us. Later, much later, it is appropriate to start talking about Christ and forgiveness.
Trouble is, so many SDA's won't sit in the gutter and LISTEN and talk with those who desperately need to see some practical Christianity. They are so judgmental and have already made up in their minds, how a person has come to be in such circumstances. Have you never heard that we need to make friends with the people, so that they are prepared to listen to what we have to say about Jesus. Do you know what REAL LISTENING is all about?
For many people, their role model of what God would be like, has come from their own father or father-figure, which has been in a very abusive relationship. So honestly, how do you think these people would relate to God as their 'Heavenly Father'? You need to stop and think about some of things before you make value judgements and decide that your way is the only way.
Not so very different to those sitting in the pews, who face abuse at home continually, while the 'head of the house' masquerades as a 'Christian Leader' to the outside world. The family of such people NEED love, compassion, kindness and understanding. The forgiveness bit comes way down the track. Many need to get their priorities in order.
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Freeindeed
There are none so blind as those who do not want to see and none so deaf as those who do not want to hear. This has nothing to do with any 'cross-fire' you are referring to. It is all about understanding the plight of a 'victim', where the last thing they need is for anyone to be jamming Scripture down their throats, in inappropriate situations.
Nobody is even using Scripture because when we do the posts are erased, so nobody here is getting ANY Scripture jammed down their throats.
Just take this scenario. Spending just one night talking with a young woman aged 27 who has been on the streets since the age of 9. Her parents were killed and she went to live with her sister and b-i-l, who sexually abused her till she ran away; aged 11. As she went on from one devastating relationship to another; one abusive relationship to another, what lessons about life do you think she learnt? Do you think that even someone who cared about this person could get close to even sit beside her? Not on your life? It took weeks to gain confidence enough that another female even could sit on the same garden seat as this young woman. So, where is the place to push Scripture in cases like this?
Again, nobody is 'pushing' Scripture. We're attempting to 'discuss' forgiveness in the Doctrinal Discussion area and there is still a resistance to even bringing Scripture to the discussion. Maybe we should rely on our superior human wisdom and understanding...
Did Jesus attend to people's physical needs first or did He ram Scripture down their necks first? Should we not follow His example in all things?
He did both. To those who knew better (religious people) he was completely in their face. How far do you want to take the 'follow His example' thing? All the way to the cross? Jesus forgave there as well!
The scenario that I have mentioned, is but one horrifying story that I am very familiar with.
I agree. I could give you dozens and dozens of stories. One of our ministries is Celebrate Recovery and I am continually amazed how God reaches across seemingly impossible barriers to bring people to healing and recovery, and then uses them to reach others in similar or related situations. Addictions, abuse, eating disorders, cutting, homelessness, brokenness, spiritual abuse, loss, etc., everything we can imagine going on around us ALL the time and most so-called Christians sit back and bury their heads in the sand or are completely unaware and unengaged.
There are so many more than you just wouldn't even understand,
Actually I completely understand...
as demonstrated by your self-righteous, pragmatic stance that the ONLY way is to show people Jesus.
Look, I'm not making personal attacks against you or anyone else...
What MORE would you show beyond Christ?
We need to show compassion and show people we care.
I agree.
We need to LISTEN instead of telling people how they should feel.
I agree.
In that way, people see Jesus THROUGH us.
I agree.
Later, much later, it is appropriate to start talking about Christ and forgiveness.
According to what or who? Would it be too much to ask for Scripture to support your assertion? What about the Gospel?
Trouble is, so many SDA's won't sit in the gutter and LISTEN and talk with those who desperately need to see some practical Christianity. They are so judgmental and have already made up in their minds, how a person has come to be in such circumstances.
I agree. For the most part that has been my experience with SDA's also. There are very few SDA counselors I could confidently make a referral to.
Have you never heard that we need to make friends with the people, so that they are prepared to listen to what we have to say about Jesus.
Yes I have! I spent some time with Mark Finley before he wrote his book about befriending people in order to bring them to SDAism. The book ultimately had a section for virtually every Christian group out there.
Do you know what REAL LISTENING is all about?
Yes, I do. I 'sit in the gutter' with people every week. How many stories would you like? I won't give you ANY where Christ-like forgiveness isn't a part of the solution, because I don't know of any. I only have a 15 year perspective in full-time ministry and counseling, but I've never seen complete healing occur without forgiveness.
For many people, their role model of what God would be like, has come from their own father or father-figure, which has been in a very abusive relationship. So honestly, how do you think these people would relate to God as their 'Heavenly Father'? You need to stop and think about some of things before you make value judgements and decide that your way is the only way.
While this is true for some (I'm not comfortable with your use of 'many'), it only means that they need to have their paradigm changed. GOD chose that analogy...just like he took the analogy of marriage, a snake, a business owner, etc. I don't believe in finding all the excuses possible to enslave people into a 'victim' mentality. Too much psycho-babble today ENABLES victim mentality. Scripture does not agree!
Not so very different to those sitting in the pews, who face abuse at home continually, while the 'head of the house' masquerades as a 'Christian Leader' to the outside world. The family of such people NEED love, compassion, kindness and understanding. The forgiveness bit comes way down the track. Many need to get their priorities in order.
I guess that ALL has to do with what sect or denomination you give your loyalty to. As a pastor of a 1200+ attending member church I INTENTIONALLY have MORE THAN ONE accountability partner. They ask the hard questions and know me inside and out. I do the same for them. It helps to reduce the 'masquerading' you make reference to, which I found to be rampant in the SDA system. We take intentional steps to toward Godly accountability WAY before we ever encounter others asking for help and seeking reconcilliation.
What is your pastor doing to be accountable? What do you personally do?
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As this topic is in the Doctrinal Discussions forum of Advent Talk, the use or non-use of Scripture isn't an issue here, therefore, everybody in this topic within this particular forum of Advent Talk is free to use Scripture at will.
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Well, first of all, it shows that WE are the one's 'guilty of harming others'. It is OUR 'iniquity and transgression' that put Jesus on the cross.
I have been out of town so will respond as I read
This is something that is very harmful when dealing with someone that is really struggling with an issue of abuse,past or recent.
What you say is true but loading someone down with a statement like this when someone is trying to make sense of what has happened to them really does nothing but sink someone that is desperately trying to stay afloat.
We are all guilty of sinning,but not all sin is equal. Many have said all sin is regarded the same and personally I do not believe that to be true. Any sin that we don't want to let go of, no matter how small, can lead to a loss of salvation.
All share equal importance to God,not all will share the identical punishment.
2 Co 5:10 does not say to me all are guilty on the same level and it does lead me to believe that some will be judged more harshly than others.
When someone is really struggling,sometimes trying to cope with the abuse they have endured and you say to them......Well, first of all, it shows that WE are the one's 'guilty of harming others'. It is OUR 'iniquity and transgression' that put Jesus on the cross.
Have you any idea how that is perceived by the one you are dealing with? In time and with help and understanding this is something they will need to deal with and hopefully reach that time when they can truly forgive. Throwing that out as a solution to the whole problem does nothing to help someone cope and in time forgive.
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Dear Bonnie and Ozzie:
This is just my take on this subject, not an answer per SE, but a suggestion to those people who concentrate so heavily on the victim and how he/she must forgive. :dunno:
When you have dealt with the perpetrator guilty of the abuse and their responsibility to ask for forgiveness as they acknowledge the gravity of their actions and the pain, both the physical and/or the emotional, then and ONLY THEN do you have the even the suggestion of a right to require the victim and/or their family or the church family to forgive. And that 'right' is questionable at best!
Frankly, I have been appalled at those who have the temerity to suggest that you and Ozzie and the others are out of line with your firm desire to deal with this subject in the Adventist Church. It is l-o-o-o-ng overdue, period! I am in total agreement with all of you. :thumbsup: And I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that if Dr. Charles Wittschiebe, the founder (I think) of the Pastoral Counselling Department in the Seminary when they came to Berrien Springs, were still alive he would have been one of the most vocal in helping us deal with this problem and we would be much further along to having a reasonable solution to it.
GrammieT
When you have dealt with the perpetrator guilty of the abuse and their responsibility to ask for forgiveness as they acknowledge the gravity of their actions and the pain, both the physical and/or the emotional, then and ONLY THEN do you have the even the suggestion of a right to require the victim and/or their family or the church family to forgive. And that 'right' is questionable at best!
This is so important...... No one has the right to forgive on behalf of an injured party. No ONE
Forgiveness will not come from someone preaching at them, or rattling off bible verses.
I am going to give some statements I and others have been told on this subject. Hopefully you will take the time to consider instead of assuming that I and others are opposed to forgiveness or following scripture.
A small child was molested by a pastor- Family was told not to cry over spilled milk and they needed to forgive.
A married woman was groped and fondled by the pastor. Solution was forgiveness.We have all sinned
A teenage girl was "seduced" (to me this is rape) by the teacher, The girl was promiscuous and the family needed to forgive the pastor.
As recent as a couple of months ago on another forum concerning the female teacher that "seduced" a young teen male,the statement,Well if he suffered any emotional problems from this, it was the mother's fault. It would depend on the way she handled it. Everyone just needed to forgive, after all we have all sinned.
In a discussion concerning the Green River serial killer and his capture, We have all sinned and he is no worse than anyone else. Forgiveness.
My sons ordeal, Forgive, after all there were good things this predator pastor had done,We have all sinned.
Not once has the guilty even surfaced as first or in anyway except for the injured party to forgive.
What I have been told and read for years and now by a few here it is forgiveness by the injured party.
Before we launch into forgiveness mode,if this were your child what would you have wanted to hear.?A small child was molested by a pastor- Family was told not to cry over spilled milk and they needed to forgive.
Why would you go from abuse to forgiveness. Forgiveness by the victim. Not forgiveness asked for by the abuser?
Would you honestly be so blind as to believe that a child and their family could cope with that kind of advice first and only?
Same for all other examples.
Forgiveness is 100% biblical. For the emotional health of the victim to say nothing of eternal life it is something they need to accept and be able to give.
By not addressing first and effectively where needed and possible,the guilty party,and going straight to the victim and their responsibility,you are doing your best to see the victim cannot reach that point. The ones that learn to deal with and forgive, mostly do so in spite of all the forgiveness preacher's, not because.
What gets done with this subject is no different than a heart surgeon, telling his patients not to worry about diet and exercise,he will fix them with a heart by-pass.
Most in the SDA denomination wish to wait till there is a victim and then use the magic wand of forgiveness(on their part) to make them healthy again.
I wish there was someway to express to you the damage that some of you do, and it is all done biblically
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PLEASE SEEK TO UNDERSTAND BEFORE ATTACKING...THANKS!
This would be well for you to consider as well
It seems to me that this topic is on a tangent on this whole site. I don't know what happened in the discussions of the past, but I disagree with the conclusions some have reached with regards to forgiveness and who should forgive who, and who shouldn't forgive who, and who should or shouldn't be able to say whether forgiveness is appropriate in a given situation, etc., at least as far as anyone who is a Christ-follower is concerned. I believe forgiveness is appropriate ALL the time, no matter which supposed side of the victim-abused/perpetrator-abuser 'scale' one may be on.
There is nothing that I have said that is remotely reflected in this.
It is not a situation of "he hit me first,so he needs to apologize first". Yes, forgiveness is always appropriate, not one said differently. The problem comes in when people like you wish to deal only with the forgiveness by a victim and chastise them if they don't do so on your timetable.
Before many victims can hear the word forgive or even really understand,someone has to first speak something a little
different to them. But those that take it upon themselves to "educate a victim on forgiveness" do not care to listen, care little about helping in a constructive way. Using the bible as their hammer, and who can argue with that, they beat a victim into "christian" submission. Instead of helping them reach that objective, they add more guilt, more anger and frustration. But we know they don't like scripture, they are not doing so to the correct timetable
explain to me how you can understand the Gospel and then come to the conclusion that we don't have to be forgiven of our GRAVE sin against God, AND/OR that we don't have to forgive others as God has forgiven us through Christ?
Can you understand that it is not forgiveness that is the problem? The problem is when "many Christians" want to make sure a victim of abuse forgives their abuser . This becomes the focal point of their "preaching" and pontificating.
Throw this at someone when they feel shame, guilt, confusion,fear, you have done at least as much if not more damage than the initial abuse. There is nothing kind, compassionate, caring or Christian about it.
You cannot set the timetable, you cannot make anyone sincerely forgive. You can listen, you can gently guide when they are ready. YOU CANNOT DETERMINE WHEN,WHO,WHERE, HOW
Wonder what would have been the outcome of the story of the Good Samaritan had he first determined if the victim had forgiven. Maybe he went to him the next day and preached to him about the glories of forgiveness.
Give those struggling a chance, support,compassion and understanding. Then not only preach to them about forgiveness, preach to the guilty party his need to ask for forgiveness and make restitution where possible.
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Again, nobody is 'pushing' Scripture. We're attempting to 'discuss' forgiveness in the Doctrinal Discussion area and there is still a resistance to even bringing Scripture to the discussion. Maybe we should rely on our superior human wisdom and understanding...
When you are discussing forgiveness and your posts indicate only forgiveness by the victim you are pushing what many cannot even process in the beginning. You make no mention of your christian concern for the perpetrator,not one mention . You make no mention of anything that would lead someone to believe you are even on the same page with those that need help and understanding. You want your understanding immediately put into action.
Your response and that of many are the same and that is to heap on the victim the final responsibility. That, they have to do without being pushed and prodded and made to feel as if it is their fault.
He did both. To those who knew better (religious people) he was completely in their face. How far do you want to take the 'follow His example' thing? All the way to the cross? Jesus forgave there as well!
I have yet to see one word from you that would indicate you have a desire to be in the face of anyone, except those that can least deal with it.
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Actually I completely understand...
I don't believe that you understand. You have one track and that is it. Everyone needs to reach the "destination" you preach to them in your way. You have never expressed the slightest interest in dealing with those that abuse,it is only the abused to hurry up and forgive
What MORE would you show beyond Christ?
Sometimes showing Christ is best accommplished with no sermons and tons of patience and compassion
I agree. For the most part that has been my experience with SDA's also. There are very few SDA counselors I could confidently make a referral to.
From some very painful, personal experience I can tell you how you come across. Reading the responses here by some,mirror the responses I was given when I first began to look for help. It would and almost did turn me so against SDA's and anything the bible had to say were it not for one man. What you have posted came at me during a time I could not even begin to comprehend the scope of what we were dealing with. What I heard was "forgive,all have sinned,forgive 7x70 etc . The word was not even on my radar screen, I could not think that far ahead, BUT the christians knew the way and that was to forgive on their timetable. Never mentioning, I might add,the responsibility of the predator we were dealing with. Same as you are doing as well.
Taking it 1,2,3,4, is a lot more helpful than demanding a victim goes from 1-5 immediately
Yes, I do. I 'sit in the gutter' with people every week. How many stories would you like? I won't give you ANY where Christ-like forgiveness isn't a part of the solution, because I don't know of any. I only have a 15 year perspective in full-time ministry and counseling, but I've never seen complete healing occur without forgiveness.
I so far haven't read where anyone said we could have complete healing without forgiveness.
ONE MORE TIME,no one is advocating anything less than forgiveness. However, you want it first last and always as the solution to any problem. On the immediate timetable of others it seems, as you have nothing to say but forgivness.
While this is true for some (I'm not comfortable with your use of 'many'), it only means that they need to have their paradigm changed. GOD chose that analogy...just like he took the analogy of marriage, a snake, a business owner, etc. I don't believe in finding all the excuses possible to enslave people into a 'victim' mentality. Too much psycho-babble today ENABLES victim mentality. Scripture does not agree!
This tells me all I needed to hear.....
I don't believe in finding all the excuses possible to enslave people into a 'victim' mentality. Too much psycho-babble today ENABLES victim mentality. Scripture does not agree
I thank God there was one person that had the desire to help/listen/and not preach.
I
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What is your pastor doing to be accountable? What do you personally do?
What is our Pastor doing? From my observations, pretending that abuse doesn't exist in the Church.
What am I doing? Working with the abused and the vulnerable for over 38 years. LISTENING to people, which many others seem to have trouble doing. So many want to be there TELLING people how they should feel, what they should do and how they should forgive, before they even show people that they care.
There's only one reason that I think many people do not want to acknowledge that we do have a problem in our church and society regarding 'abuse' and forgiveness' (apart from those who want to deny that it's happening in their homes), and that is: I think that people can be so uncomfortable with the reality that this IS happening. They'd rather CHOOSE to PRETEND that it's not happening, so they don't have to be involved or to deal with it.
What else do I do? I show that I care in many ways outside a text book or Church Manual. About this time last year, my husband and I travelled north so that I could be maid-of-honour at a former client's wedding - that being 14 years after I first met the terrified, abused and suicidal person; who could hardly believe that she had found a Counsellor who would LISTEN and PRAY with her -without pushing 'forgiveness' down her throat. The 'forgiveness part' came many years later.
What I won't be doing, is engaging with anymore arguing back and forth with people who prefer to CHOOSE to IGNORE the reality that people need to have their physical and mental problems dealt with, before we start pushing the 'forgiveness barrel'. I will continue to LISTEN to Church families and show them love and compassion, while others remain judgemental and tell them they just need to forgive and forget.
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What am I doing? Working with the abused and the vulnerable for over 38 years. LISTENING to people, which many others seem to have trouble doing. So many want to be there TELLING people how they should feel, what they should do and how they should forgive, before they even show people that they care.
There's only one reason that I think many people do not want to acknowledge that we do have a problem in our church and society regarding 'abuse' and forgiveness' (apart from those who want to deny that it's happening in their homes), and that is: I think that people can be so uncomfortable with the reality that this IS happening. They'd rather CHOOSE to PRETEND that it's not happening, so they don't have to be involved or to deal with it.
What else do I do? I show that I care in many ways outside a text book or Church Manual. About this time last year, my husband and I travelled north so that I could be maid-of-honour at a former client's wedding - that being 14 years after I first met the terrified, abused and suicidal person; who could hardly believe that she had found a Counsellor who would LISTEN and PRAY with her -without pushing 'forgiveness' down her throat. The 'forgiveness part' came many years later.
What I won't be doing, is engaging with anymore arguing back and forth with people who prefer to CHOOSE to IGNORE the reality that people need to have their physical and mental problems dealt with, before we start pushing the 'forgiveness barrel'. I will continue to LISTEN to Church families and show them love and compassion, while others remain judgemental and tell them they just need to forgive and forget.[/b]
Thank You Ozzie. I am not sure that some even realize what they are doing. They have such a narrow focus and it is a biblical focus, so how can it be wrong?
I think that it would surprise the "preachers of forgiveness first by the abused" that if they just listened with a compassionate ear, they wouldn't even have to open their mouth concerning forgiveness. It would come.
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Thank You Ozzie. I am not sure that some even realize what they are doing. They have such a narrow focus and it is a biblical focus, so how can it be wrong?
I think that it would surprise the "preachers of forgiveness first by the abused" that if they just listened with a compassionate ear, they wouldn't even have to open their mouth concerning forgiveness. It would come.
Absolutely Bonnie. Why can't they 'get it'?
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Thank You Ozzie. I am not sure that some even realize what they are doing. They have such a narrow focus and it is a biblical focus, so how can it be wrong?
I think that it would surprise the "preachers of forgiveness first by the abused" that if they just listened with a compassionate ear, they wouldn't even have to open their mouth concerning forgiveness. It would come.
Absolutely Bonnie. Why can't they 'get it'?
Dear Bonnie and Ozzie: :amen:
Maybe it's because they're too busy denying that they just might have seen something significant that they should have dealt with; ignoring the pained demeanor of the victim; and 'protecting the Church from scandal'??!! :rabbit: :hot:
My heart is so heavy! :'(
GrammieT
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Dear Bonnie and Ozzie: :amen:
Maybe it's because they're too busy denying that they just might have seen something significant that they should have dealt with; ignoring the pained demeanor of the victim; and 'protecting the Church from scandal'??!! :rabbit: :hot:
My heart is so heavy! :'(
GrammieT
It is so easy and neat and tidy to go to the hoped for actions by any that have become victims. If they acknowledge a perpetrator and his/her sins that they must account for and seek forgiveness,it becomes more difficult. Requiring far more than most are willing to give.
I think sometimes that those that do this are convinced that if they show themselves righteous enough and preach forgiveness by the victim, God will ignore those "little,itty,bitty" ones of theirs
As to what you see and here on this topic,I can only conclude the Good Samaritan was wrong. He needed to first preach to the injured party on forgiving his attackers. Then he would have been worthy of aid