Advent Talk
Issues & Concerns Category => 3ABN => Topic started by: Bob Pickle on June 04, 2008, 08:33:06 PM
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... the single defamatory statement remotely related to Danny Shelton’s personal finances would make relevant only the title, purchase documents and payment information for a Toyota Sequoia automobile [Complaint ¶ 50(g)].
Does this statement make sense to anyone?
It is from the latest filing by 3ABN in opposition to my motion to compel, filed on May 29, 2008. It's at the end of the list of things they think are relevant to the litigation.
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... the single defamatory statement remotely related to Danny Shelton’s personal finances would make relevant only the title, purchase documents and payment information for a Toyota Sequoia automobile [Complaint ¶ 50(g)].
Does this statement make sense to anyone?
No. :scratch:
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Here is a question for you Mr. Pickle is the piece of fruit in my hand a pear?
Make sense?
Nope.
Why?
Because there is no context. Just like this ridiculous post of yours which is absent any context whatsoever. Have the guts to put up the whole thing and let the world have a chance to decide if you are manipulating these words. But you won't because it would prove you are manipulating things and misleading people. Why don't you treat your readership with some decency and not assume they don't think for themselves.
... the single defamatory statement remotely related to Danny Shelton’s personal finances would make relevant only the title, purchase documents and payment information for a Toyota Sequoia automobile [Complaint ¶ 50(g)].
Does this statement make sense to anyone?
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Well Bob, I was just getting ready to ask for a little more context regarding the quote but I see anyman has already beat me to it. He appears to be in an exceptionally bad mood tonight, don't you think?
... the single defamatory statement remotely related to Danny Shelton’s personal finances would make relevant only the title, purchase documents and payment information for a Toyota Sequoia automobile [Complaint ¶ 50(g)].
Does this statement make sense to anyone?
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What kind of car did Linda Drive? Can't remember the care Linda's daughter drove. The name rings bells for me. How about you guys?
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What kind of car did Linda Drive? Can't remember the care Linda's daughter drove. The name rings bells for me. How about you guys?
Yes I can hear alarm bells but can't quite connect it all yet. Wasn't that Linda's car? Somewhere I think there were bank statements regarding payments or similar. I'd better nip over to Save-3abn and see what I can find. :oops:
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It was just a car. But have you ever heard of a Corvette or a Chevy Avalanche? Danny does have good taste in vehicles, I'll give him that. So does Brandy. Too bad the emplyees at 3ABN can't afford much, and some of them can only afford bancruptcy. In these times of belt tightening the lower echelons of personally held Shelton family businesses (Personally held according to court documents from property tax case) like 3ABN have to take the brunt of the fund cutting.
What kind of car did Linda Drive? Can't remember the care Linda's daughter drove. The name rings bells for me. How about you guys?
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Well Bob, I was just getting ready to ask for a little more context regarding the quote but I see anyman has already beat me to it. He appears to be in an exceptionally bad mood tonight, don't you think?
You noticed that too Snoopy? :hot:
I guess that DannyAnyman really doesn't like having those matters exposed to the world. Maybe, it's all a bit close to the bone for him? :dunno:
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Because there is no context.
I've edited the post to add the context. It was from 3ABN's latest court filing.
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Anyone interested in reading the full document for themselves may go to 3ABN Defended and read document 67 in the Pacer files folder.
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ADMIN HAT ON
Eduard, I deleted your entire post as it was offensive and degrading.
ADMIN HAT OFF
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Here is a question for you Mr. Pickle is the piece of fruit in my hand a pear?
Make sense?
Nope.
Why?
Because there is no context. Just like this ridiculous post of yours which is absent any context whatsoever. Have the guts to put up the whole thing and let the world have a chance to decide if you are manipulating these words. But you won't because it would prove you are manipulating things and misleading people. Why don't you treat your readership with some decency and not assume they don't think for themselves.
... the single defamatory statement remotely related to Danny Shelton’s personal finances would make relevant only the title, purchase documents and payment information for a Toyota Sequoia automobile [Complaint ¶ 50(g)].
Does this statement make sense to anyone?
Post edited by Snoopy to remove offensive quote from the prior post.
Why do you insist on posting personal insults, put downs and ridicule Eduard? So many of your posts are like this. I found the post about asking for a requiem for Danny totally unecessary and mean, and mocking anymans education or intellect is certainly not necessary?
Do you have some hurt or anger causing this and can I help in some way? It's distressing to me and I worry about you, but at the same time I have a hard time accepting anything you write as to me it is all so ugly and just outright rude. Can't you just address the topics of discussion?
maybe you don't see this yourself? Maybe I am wrong, as the moderators don't seem to have a problem with with what you say or how you talk about fellow members..:dunno:
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Nope, you didn't provide anything by your edit. The section you cherry picked,
"and the single defamatory statement remotely related to Danny Shelton's personal finances would make relevant only the title, purchase documents and payment information for a Toyota Sequoia automobile [Complaint P 50(g)]."
and placed here out of context culminates a list of items that 3ABN considers relevant, and relevance is at the core of this issue. According the 3ABN's response you have been "abusive" in your demands for document production. Among the ridiculous demands you have made, you have demanded:
"virtually all of 3ABN's financial, accounting, bookkeeping and auditing records from 1997 to the present"
"all minutes 'and other documents' of the 3ABN Board for its entire existence 'and on an ongoing basis'"
"All types of phone records or other documents enumerating phone calls made by 3ABN officers from January 1, 2003 onward . . ."
You have failed to narrow the scope of your demands to those documents that the Complaint sets the relevant context for. The little tidbit you posted is at the end of a long list that suggests to the Court (but doesn't set as mandatory or limiting) what documents may be relevant and thus holding you responsible for the defamatory statements you have made in regards to:
The Board and it's "actions in regards to moral, ethical, and financial allegations you have made and whether they were ignored, buried, or otherwise improperly disregarded by them"
Purchase/sale of vans
Purchase/sale of furniture with 3ABN funds
Donations to Cherie Peters' ministry and Board orders in such regard
"Book royalties earned by and paid to 3ABN or erroneously or improperly paid to Danny Shelton"
Documents about the use of the corporate jet
Documents relating to the ASI "dispute-resolution process"
"The public record in Danny Shelton's divorce proceedings"
Formal documents with/from the IRS, DOJ, EEOC, or Dept. Of Labor
All of those things are listed BEFORE the statement you provided. They are all taken directly from the Complaint against you - which IS holding you responsible for your words and actions in regards to all of those things. There is the context of the statement! To put it as simple as possible, 3ABN says that the only documentation of Danny Shelton's personal financial files that even "remotely" is connected to the Complaint would be the ones involving the vehicle. So it is obvious that they are holding you responsible for ALL of your defamatory claims.
Additionally, the response to your motion outlines a rock solid argument as to why the court should ignore your petition to compel, your petition to have free rein and access to 3ABN, it's property and all of it's files, and your petition that 3ABN foot the bill for you.
The response outlines brilliantly the fact that you have been "overly broad" in your demands, failed to make any effort to provide an argument of relevance for your demands, and slowed the process by trying to add to the lawsuit that which wasn't/isn't part of the Complaint brought against you.
Because there is no context.
I've edited the post to add the context. It was from 3ABN's latest court filing.
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Thanks, anyman, for making it clear that I was correct: They did not include in that list anything having to do with the divorce, and issue that was in the complaint.
Also, I do not recall saying anything about royalties earned by 3ABN. Nor about the board prohibiting donations to Cherie Peters.
Notice also that there is nothing on the list that would enable one to prove what financial damage was caused by what statements.
There are a number of other problems about their list, are there not?
Now when you consider what we really have said, how in the world could anyone claim that the only stuff remotely relevant to Danny's personal finances is the title of and payment for the Toyota van?
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Thanks Donna for letting us know about the new site. It looks very interesting. I already signed up. If anyone wants to see PACER documents in their entirety you can go here but you have to be a member of this site in order to see the files where the PACEr documents are located. Lots of information here!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/3abnDefended/messages
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Here is a question for you Mr. Pickle is the piece of fruit in my hand a pear?
Make sense?
Nope.
Why?
Because there is no context. Just like this ridiculous post of yours which is absent any context whatsoever. Have the guts to put up the whole thing and let the world have a chance to decide if you are manipulating these words. But you won't because it would prove you are manipulating things and misleading people. Why don't you treat your readership with some decency and not assume they don't think for themselves.
... the single defamatory statement remotely related to Danny Shelton’s personal finances would make relevant only the title, purchase documents and payment information for a Toyota Sequoia automobile [Complaint ¶ 50(g)].
Does this statement make sense to anyone?
Post edited by Snoopy to remove offensive quote from the prior post.
Why do you insist on posting personal insults, put downs and ridicule Eduard? So many of your posts are like this. I found the post about asking for a requiem for Danny totally unecessary and mean, and mocking anymans education or intellect is certainly not necessary?
Do you have some hurt or anger causing this and can I help in some way? It's distressing to me and I worry about you, but at the same time I have a hard time accepting anything you write as to me it is all so ugly and just outright rude. Can't you just address the topics of discussion?
maybe you don't see this yourself? Maybe I am wrong, as the moderators don't seem to have a problem with with what you say or how you talk about fellow members..:dunno:
I apologize for my comment about the moderators. In retrospect was also uncalled for, and I am ashamed. I should have just bit my tongue and been more patient, as I realize you are all learning, and doing the best you can. I appreciate the eyes which see, and you doing what is for the most part a unthankful job.
blessings..
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Here is a question for you Mr. Pickle is the piece of fruit in my hand a pear?
Make sense?
Nope.
Why?
Because there is no context. Just like this ridiculous post of yours which is absent any context whatsoever. Have the guts to put up the whole thing and let the world have a chance to decide if you are manipulating these words. But you won't because it would prove you are manipulating things and misleading people. Why don't you treat your readership with some decency and not assume they don't think for themselves.
... the single defamatory statement remotely related to Danny Shelton’s personal finances would make relevant only the title, purchase documents and payment information for a Toyota Sequoia automobile [Complaint ¶ 50(g)].
Does this statement make sense to anyone?
Post edited by Snoopy to remove offensive quote from the prior post.
Why do you insist on posting personal insults, put downs and ridicule Eduard? So many of your posts are like this. I found the post about asking for a requiem for Danny totally unecessary and mean, and mocking anymans education or intellect is certainly not necessary?
Do you have some hurt or anger causing this and can I help in some way? It's distressing to me and I worry about you, but at the same time I have a hard time accepting anything you write as to me it is all so ugly and just outright rude. Can't you just address the topics of discussion?
maybe you don't see this yourself? Maybe I am wrong, as the moderators don't seem to have a problem with with what you say or how you talk about fellow members..:dunno:
Ian,
Shakespeare said somewhere that truth turns words into daggers. The statements I have made so far in this forum are nothing but true and precise evaluations of the messages posted by you, Donna, Junebug, anyman, and others who defend Danny Shelton. My messages may not sound politically correct when formulated as I did so far, but they are not at all different IN ESSENCE from the insults your group piles on Pickle and Joy every day. Constant efforts from your group to twist the truth, and to deceive those who read the posts in this forum are EVEN MORE OFFESIVE than the posts I make because behind the false politeness with which you write your messages hides their true spirit, the UGLINESS OF DECEPTION.
God is TRUE, and His message is TRUTHFUL. Satan is THE FATHER OF LIES, and his goal is to spread DECEPTION. The messages of your group do not contain truth, but deception. Those who love the truth hate deception and are outraged by it.
Eduard
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Thanks Donna for letting us know about the new site. It looks very interesting. I already signed up. If anyone wants to see PACER documents in their entirety you can go here but you have to be a member of this site in order to see the files where the PACEr documents are located. Lots of information here!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/3abnDefended/messages
Junebug, Donna, and Ian:
Here are two messages posted on the website Donna mentioned:
___________
I see that Mr. Robert Pickle has made some youtube video's trying to
bring dishonor to God's Name and to discredit 3ABN.
Folks, what Mr. Pickle is saying is not truthful. Before you believe
what he says, check it out. You can check with 3ABN by e-mailing them
at this link:
http://www.3abn.org/contact_email.cfm
You will find the truth from kind Christian loving people who work
there. I'm sorry that Mr. Pickle and Mr. Joy seem to have such a hatred
for God's work. They must hate the Bible and the truth in it.
In fact we are told when people do these kinds of things, it is as if
they were doing it to the Lord Jesus Christ. I wonder if they have
thought of this?
Sammy
________________
Mr. Pickle now has 11 different youtube videos made to try to bring
forth to the public accusations and innuendo. Notice how below these
video's it has a section for comments by the public. Mr. Pickle and Mr.
Joy have disabled this feature so that no one can comment that these
videos are based on nothing but opinion.
This ought to prove right there that they are AFRAID people will speak
up against what they are saying and to let them know they (Mr. Pickle
and Mr. Joy) are not truthful. When men try to bring discredit to
Christian programming such as 3ABN, and they do not allow the truth to
be posted, showing and proving they are wrong in their assumptions,
they will find they are working on the wrong side.
Also the timing of putting these video's out for the public to see was
just as a 3-day holiday began. You can see how calculating these evil
men are.
But praise the Lord--He will overrule what they are trying to do. The
upcoming Ten Commandments week-end will be a total success for the
truths sake. God's Name will be glorified.
Truth will triumph!!
________________
Do you agree with these offensive and degrading messages that attack Joy and Pickle? Do Joy and Pickle really "hate the Bible and the truth in it"?
Do they have "a hatred for God's work" because they have blown the whistle about the wrongs that have been happening at 3ABN?
Do they really "try to bring discredit to Christian programming such as 3ABN, and they do not allow the truth to be posted"?
Who was the one who wanted all the documents in the lawsuit locked up so that nobody will be able to know what the truth is?
I am glad that Donna mentioned the <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/3abnDefended/messages> website. It will be another opportunity for people to see what kind of defenders Danny Shelton has and how much truth they speak!
Eduard
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There are two things that can always be counted on in your response to posts that effectively refute or put to question your postings. First, you claim the reply validates or supports your point - which isn't the case at all. Second, rather than address the issues made in the reply to your post or dealing with issue at question you attempt to divert other readers by brining into your post completely unrelated and irrelevant comments.
Some how you missed it, but in my reply establishing context to your initial cherry picked statement, I made the following observation, which was taken directly from the document filed by 3ABN's attorney. According to Document 67, p. 11, Item 4 cites the Complaint, P's 46(h), 46(i), 50(c), 50(e), 50(i), "The public record in Danny Shelton's divorce proceedings". So you are wrong in regards to your first comment below.
No, I don't see any problems. Everything the mention is found in the Complaint against you. Again, you filed a Motion to Compel and Document 67 is 3ABN's response to that and outlines the unreasonable and overly broad nature of your demands. They effectively show how you have demanded access to documents that have nothing to do with any of the items in the Complaint against you. You seem to have lost focus and don't realize that discovery involves only those things addressed in the Complaint and you can't add to that as you are a defendant - the context was established by the Complaint you must operate within that.
Once again you attempt to subtly confuse the discussion with your last question. It is indeed a fact that the only personal financial documents that are related to the issues established in the Complaint have to do with the Toyota SUV. Again, what you are suggesting is that everything you have leveled false accusations about since the filing of the Complaint has some relevance in this case, and in this you are wrong.
It is also obvious that you are choosing to ignore the issue here; that you have made "abusive," "overly broad" demands not only in this Motion to Compel, but as a matter of operation throughout the discovery process. You have also failed to provide your position on why all of the documents you demand hold relevance to the Complaint - as is required.
How about this, taken directly from Document 67:
"Plaintiff's exercise is merely an attempt to illustrate the excessively broad and unduly burdensome nature of Pickle's request and why Plaintiffs cannot respond until the requests are narrowed to seek relevant information or information that is reasonably calculated to lead to the discovery of admissible evidence."
Obviously this establishes that Document 67 is an attempt to establish a foundation for Mr. Pickle's request of the Court to be thrown out and includes a request for oral arguments (p. 13) as a means to provide larger context for the Court. The exercise referred to is Section III on page 9 which establishes why the Court should deny Mr. Pickle's request seeking information that is "not discoverable." 3ABN's attorney is merely making it clear that Mr. Pickle is not operating within the context of the Complaint thus unduly lengthening the process thereby causing monetary expenditures to be greater than they should or would be if he would stick to the context of the Complaint.
So the questions in your court Mr. Pickle, are:
"Why have you failed to provide defense, by establishing relevance, for your demands."
"Why do you refuse to narrow your request to only those documents that are relevant to the Complaint."
Thanks, anyman, for making it clear that I was correct: They did not include in that list anything having to do with the divorce, and issue that was in the complaint.
Also, I do not recall saying anything about royalties earned by 3ABN. Nor about the board prohibiting donations to Cherie Peters.
Notice also that there is nothing on the list that would enable one to prove what financial damage was caused by what statements.
There are a number of other problems about their list, are there not?
Now when you consider what we really have said, how in the world could anyone claim that the only stuff remotely relevant to Danny's personal finances is the title of and payment for the Toyota van?
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I am glad that Donna mentioned the <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/3abnDefended/messages> website. It will be another opportunity for people to see what kind of defenders Danny Shelton has and how much truth they speak!
Eduard
Fine, but "Off topic" imo... again you ignore the issues to concentrate on the individuals you disagree with, find fault with them and post ad hominems...
The subject here is " "single ... statement remotely related to Danny Shelton's personal finances" and the link was given to the PACER documents under discussion so those who wanted to view and examine what is being discussed/debated because they are interested in the topic and the truth could do so...
The following is ontopic, relevant and deserves an answer imo...
There are two things that can always be counted on in your response to posts that effectively refute or put to question your postings. First, you claim the reply validates or supports your point - which isn't the case at all. Second, rather than address the issues made in the reply to your post or dealing with issue at question you attempt to divert other readers by brining into your post completely unrelated and irrelevant comments.
Some how you missed it, but in my reply establishing context to your initial cherry picked statement, I made the following observation, which was taken directly from the document filed by 3ABN's attorney. According to Document 67, p. 11, Item 4 cites the Complaint, P's 46(h), 46(i), 50(c), 50(e), 50(i), "The public record in Danny Shelton's divorce proceedings". So you are wrong in regards to your first comment below.
No, I don't see any problems. Everything the mention is found in the Complaint against you. Again, you filed a Motion to Compel and Document 67 is 3ABN's response to that and outlines the unreasonable and overly broad nature of your demands. They effectively show how you have demanded access to documents that have nothing to do with any of the items in the Complaint against you. You seem to have lost focus and don't realize that discovery involves only those things addressed in the Complaint and you can't add to that as you are a defendant - the context was established by the Complaint you must operate within that.
Once again you attempt to subtly confuse the discussion with your last question. It is indeed a fact that the only personal financial documents that are related to the issues established in the Complaint have to do with the Toyota SUV. Again, what you are suggesting is that everything you have leveled false accusations about since the filing of the Complaint has some relevance in this case, and in this you are wrong.
It is also obvious that you are choosing to ignore the issue here; that you have made "abusive," "overly broad" demands not only in this Motion to Compel, but as a matter of operation throughout the discovery process. You have also failed to provide your position on why all of the documents you demand hold relevance to the Complaint - as is required.
How about this, taken directly from Document 67:
"Plaintiff's exercise is merely an attempt to illustrate the excessively broad and unduly burdensome nature of Pickle's request and why Plaintiffs cannot respond until the requests are narrowed to seek relevant information or information that is reasonably calculated to lead to the discovery of admissible evidence."
Obviously this establishes that Document 67 is an attempt to establish a foundation for Mr. Pickle's request of the Court to be thrown out and includes a request for oral arguments (p. 13) as a means to provide larger context for the Court. The exercise referred to is Section III on page 9 which establishes why the Court should deny Mr. Pickle's request seeking information that is "not discoverable." 3ABN's attorney is merely making it clear that Mr. Pickle is not operating within the context of the Complaint thus unduly lengthening the process thereby causing monetary expenditures to be greater than they should or would be if he would stick to the context of the Complaint.
So the questions in your court Mr. Pickle, are:
"Why have you failed to provide defense, by establishing relevance, for your demands."
"Why do you refuse to narrow your request to only those documents that are relevant to the Complaint."
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Have you forgotten that we have not yet stated affirmative defenses, countercalim or third parties? And so just how would you know what is relevant?
But, for the sake of clarification, here is that rule 26 and then 34 and is easilly defensible:
" Rule 26:
(4) Form of Disclosures.
Unless the court orders otherwise, all disclosures under Rule 26(a) must be in writing, signed, and served.
(b) Discovery Scope and Limits.
(1) Scope in General.
Unless otherwise limited by court order, the scope of discovery is as follows: Parties may obtain discovery regarding any nonprivileged matter that is relevant to any party's claim or defense — including the existence, description, nature, custody, condition, and location of any documents or other tangible things and the identity and location of persons who know of any discoverable matter. For good cause, the court may order discovery of any matter relevant to the subject matter involved in the action. Relevant information need not be admissible at the trial if the discovery appears reasonably calculated to lead to the discovery of admissible evidence. All discovery is subject to the limitations imposed by Rule 26(b)(2)(C).
Rule 34. Producing Documents, Electronically Stored Information, and Tangible Things, or Entering onto Land, for Inspection and Other Purposes
(a) In General.
A party may serve on any other party a request within the scope of Rule 26(b):
(1) to produce and permit the requesting party or its representative to inspect, copy, test, or sample the following items in the responding party's possession, custody, or control:
(A) any designated documents or electronically stored information — including writings, drawings, graphs, charts, photographs, sound recordings, images, and other data or data compilations — stored in any medium from which information can be obtained either directly or, if necessary, after translation by the responding party into a reasonably usable form; or
(B) any designated tangible things; or
(2) to permit entry onto designated land or other property possessed or controlled by the responding party, so that the requesting party may inspect, measure, survey, photograph, test, or sample the property or any designated object or operation on it."
So, as they say, get use to it and when you have filed suit, well we will deal with your abberant view of the law, in the interim we will deal with Danny's abberant view of the law...he files suite, does not have to prove his case, and wins...
sorry but it did not work in the State of Illinois case and it won't work here. And we can state that with confidence as the documents role in, not from 3ABN but from third parties...now 3ABN, it is your turn!!! Produce or we will push to compel.
You know, Anyman, you just don't seem to comprehend that we EXPECT TO WIN!!! The weight of the evidence continues to grow in our favor. Unless they come up with something a bit more solid than Danny Says, the trial will be just another big loss for 3ABN while they appeal to avoid the inevitable judgment. But the judgment will come and all the appeals in the world are unlikely to reverse the truth. And we are not the only issue that remains unresolved!!!
So, enjoy the discovery and we will prepare our defense, etc. Like it or lump it.
Gailon Arthur Joy
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Rule 26 is going to be your undoing.
Have you forgotten that we have not yet stated affirmative defenses, countercalim or third parties? And so just how would you know what is relevant?
But, for the sake of clarification, here is that rule 26 and then 34 and is easilly defensible:
" Rule 26:
(4) Form of Disclosures.
Unless the court orders otherwise, all disclosures under Rule 26(a) must be in writing, signed, and served.
(b) Discovery Scope and Limits.
(1) Scope in General.
Unless otherwise limited by court order, the scope of discovery is as follows: Parties may obtain discovery regarding any nonprivileged matter that is relevant to any party's claim or defense — including the existence, description, nature, custody, condition, and location of any documents or other tangible things and the identity and location of persons who know of any discoverable matter. For good cause, the court may order discovery of any matter relevant to the subject matter involved in the action. Relevant information need not be admissible at the trial if the discovery appears reasonably calculated to lead to the discovery of admissible evidence. All discovery is subject to the limitations imposed by Rule 26(b)(2)(C).
Rule 34. Producing Documents, Electronically Stored Information, and Tangible Things, or Entering onto Land, for Inspection and Other Purposes
(a) In General.
A party may serve on any other party a request within the scope of Rule 26(b):
(1) to produce and permit the requesting party or its representative to inspect, copy, test, or sample the following items in the responding party's possession, custody, or control:
(A) any designated documents or electronically stored information — including writings, drawings, graphs, charts, photographs, sound recordings, images, and other data or data compilations — stored in any medium from which information can be obtained either directly or, if necessary, after translation by the responding party into a reasonably usable form; or
(B) any designated tangible things; or
(2) to permit entry onto designated land or other property possessed or controlled by the responding party, so that the requesting party may inspect, measure, survey, photograph, test, or sample the property or any designated object or operation on it."
So, as they say, get use to it and when you have filed suit, well we will deal with your abberant view of the law, in the interim we will deal with Danny's abberant view of the law...he files suite, does not have to prove his case, and wins...
sorry but it did not work in the State of Illinois case and it won't work here. And we can state that with confidence as the documents role in, not from 3ABN but from third parties...now 3ABN, it is your turn!!! Produce or we will push to compel.
You know, Anyman, you just don't seem to comprehend that we EXPECT TO WIN!!! The weight of the evidence continues to grow in our favor. Unless they come up with something a bit more solid than Danny Says, the trial will be just another big loss for 3ABN while they appeal to avoid the inevitable judgment. But the judgment will come and all the appeals in the world are unlikely to reverse the truth. And we are not the only issue that remains unresolved!!!
So, enjoy the discovery and we will prepare our defense, etc. Like it or lump it.
Gailon Arthur Joy
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Wishful thinking, ANYMAN?
Why don't you jump right into this case and put your money where your mouth is. So far, this case has been anything but OUR undoing. If you think that relevant documentation can be kept out of the discovery process, well, dream on. Financial documentation is central to the question of damages...keep up hoping ANYMAN...and remember ALL THE RULES!
They are 3ABN's undoing. File suit and then try and hide the evidence...now isn't that classic... and all this to get the truth out. WHAT HYPOCRACY!!!
Gailon Arthur Joy
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Rule 26 (b)(2)(C) On motion or on its own, the court must limit the frequency or extent of discovery otherwise allowed by these rules or by local rule if it determines that:
(i) the discovery sought is unreasonably cumulative or duplicative, or can be obtained from some other source that is more convenient, less burdensome, or less expensive;
(iii) the burden or expense of the proposed discovery outweighs its likely benefit, considering the needs of the case, the amount in controversy, the parties' resources, the importance of the issues at stake in the action, and the importance of the discovery in resolving the issues.
If one reads the latest filings by Mr. Pickle and the attrorney for 3ABN, it is obvious that the remands are "unreasonably cumulative or duplicative" and the court has grounds to deny the requests and limit them to only the materials that are relevant to the Complaint.
Additionally, seems like Ian and others you have threatened my very well be able to avail themselves of
Rule 26 (c)(1) A party or any person from whom discovery is sought may move for a protective order in the court where the action is pending - or as an alternative on matters relating to a deposition, in the court for the district where the deposition will be taken. The motion must include a certification that the movant has in good faith conferrred or attempted to confer with other affected parties in an effort to resolve the dispute without court action. The court may, for good cause, issue an order to protect a party or person from annoyance, embarrassment, oppression, or undue burden or expense, including one or more of the following:
(A) forbidding the disclosure or discovery;
(B) specifying terms, including time and place, for the disclosure of the discovery;
(C) prescribe a discovery method other than the one selected by the party seeking discovery;
(D) forbidding inquiry into certain matters, or limiting the scope of disclosure or discovery to certain matters;
(E) designating the persons who may be present while the discovery is conducted;
(F) requiring that a deposition be sealed and opened only on court order;
(G) requiring that a trade secret or other confidential research, development, or commercial information not be revealed or be revealed only in a specified way;
(H) requiring parties to simultaneously file specified documents or information in sealed envelopes, to be opened as the court directs.
You see, the courts have the authority to end your sides harassing behavior and keep you and your sidekick in line with the Complaint and the issues that are contained in it. You can threaten and thump your chest - but you are not above the law (as you seem to believe). You can try and spin a web and attempt to get the Court to enter, but they won't. You are beholden to the law and not above it, including claims against you and Mr. Pickle of harassment and unethical behavior.
You flaunt Rule 26 as though it gives you free reign over society to do as you wish, but it will probably bring you and your charging horses back down to earth via the limits it can inflict.
Wishful thinking, ANYMAN?
Why don't you jump right into this case and put your money where your mouth is. So far, this case has been anything but OUR undoing. If you think that relevant documentation can be kept out of the discovery process, well, dream on. Financial documentation is central to the question of damages...keep up hoping ANYMAN...and remember ALL THE RULES!
They are 3ABN's undoing. File suit and then try and hide the evidence...now isn't that classic... and all this to get the truth out. WHAT HYPOCRACY!!!
Gailon Arthur Joy
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Well, anyman, why doesn't 3ABN/Danny amend their complaint if they want to narrow discovery?
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No need as the Court, more than likely, will require you to stick to the context of the Complaint. Again, you think you can manipulate the court and falsely assume you can operate outside the laws of the land the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure. Time to follow the letter of law Mr. Pickle.
Well, anyman, why doesn't 3ABN/Danny amend their complaint if they want to narrow discovery?
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Anyman, you didn't answer my question: why doesn't 3ABN/Danny amend their complaint if they want to narrow discovery?
Look at the complaint. It clearly talks about whether Danny had biblical grounds for divorce or not. But the plaintiffs don't want us to touch that one, it appears.
They also make the allegation that 3ABN is a principled, dedicated ministry, and has been so for more than 20 years, but they don't want us to touch that allegation either.
So why don't they simply remove all such allegations form their complaint?
Another allegation is that donations have declined, and have declined because of us. But they don't want us to touch that one either.
So answer my question: why doesn't 3ABN/Danny amend their complaint if they want to narrow discovery?
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If they remove those allegations, what will be left?
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My, that sure is a bright question, Daryl.
But then again, you don't have to be that bright to figure that one out!
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Anyman, you didn't answer my question: why doesn't 3ABN/Danny amend their complaint if they want to narrow discovery?
Mr. Pickle, I am not going to waste the time of those who read here with questions that hold no relevance to the issues being discussed. If you want to ask a question that is applicable, holds relevance, then I may indulge you - but this one, not wasting anyone's time on it.
Look at the complaint. It clearly talks about whether Danny had biblical grounds for divorce or not. But the plaintiffs don't want us to touch that one, it appears.
You are wrong, I pointed this out, you can choose to ignore it or accept it . . . but it has been asked and answered, go back and check.
They also make the allegation that 3ABN is a principled, dedicated ministry, and has been so for more than 20 years, but they don't want us to touch that allegation either.
Your >opinion< in regards to this issue is immaterial. The mission of 3ABN, the work of 3ABN, the dedication of those who work there from top to bottom will convince a jury that you are lowing smoke up the wrong chimney. If 3ABN wanted to parade one witness after another who would testify to the dedication, the principle, and the Christian spirit they could keep the jury in rapt attention for months . . . but then you don't care about the souls lead to the foot of the cross, you just want to be "right," you want to "win," you aren't interested in the saving of souls - or so the fruit on your tree would indicate.
So why don't they simply remove all such allegations form their complaint?
The Complaint is pretty through and successfully outlines the issues that are being litigated. You have to choose . . . let me add some emphasis . . . YOU . . . have to decide if you are going to remain within the context of the Complaint or waste the courts time and your nonexistent finances trying to make this into more than the Court has acknowledge the case is about. You have your own personal agenda and the Court doesn't care - it just doesn't care what your personal issues are, your personal agenda is, it is going to force you to remain within the appropriate context so you don't waste their time or money.
Another allegation is that donations have declined, and have declined because of us. But they don't want us to touch that one either.
Again, you are trying to add to what has been defined. You want more, you want to spend months and weeks trying to make your case. You want access to all the documents in your list - relevant or not - If you bothered to remain within the context of the Complaint you might actually ave completed your discovery and be in oral arguments already . . . but you just want to go on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on . . . only to in the end be left naked in front of those you have deluded.
So answer my question: why doesn't 3ABN/Danny amend their complaint if they want to narrow discovery?
Here it is, in case you missed it in the beginning of my response . . . I am not going to waste readers time on your questions when they are not relevant or within the context of the Complaint. You can complain, even whine about it, but there is no use or benefit in discussing this. You need to pull back and focus your discovery on those documents and depositions that actually have something to do with the Complaint.
[/color][/b]
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Anyman, you didn't answer my question: why doesn't 3ABN/Danny amend their complaint if they want to narrow discovery?
Mr. Pickle, I am not going to waste the time of those who read here with questions that hold no relevance to the issues being discussed. If you want to ask a question that is applicable, holds relevance, then I may indulge you - but this one, not wasting anyone's time on it.
Look at the complaint. It clearly talks about whether Danny had biblical grounds for divorce or not. But the plaintiffs don't want us to touch that one, it appears.
You are wrong, I pointed this out, you can choose to ignore it or accept it . . . but it has been asked and answered, go back and check.
They also make the allegation that 3ABN is a principled, dedicated ministry, and has been so for more than 20 years, but they don't want us to touch that allegation either.
Your >opinion< in regards to this issue is immaterial. The mission of 3ABN, the work of 3ABN, the dedication of those who work there from top to bottom will convince a jury that you are lowing smoke up the wrong chimney. If 3ABN wanted to parade one witness after another who would testify to the dedication, the principle, and the Christian spirit they could keep the jury in rapt attention for months . . . but then you don't care about the souls lead to the foot of the cross, you just want to be "right," you want to "win," you aren't interested in the saving of souls - or so the fruit on your tree would indicate.
So why don't they simply remove all such allegations form their complaint?
The Complaint is pretty through and successfully outlines the issues that are being litigated. You have to choose . . . let me add some emphasis . . . YOU . . . have to decide if you are going to remain within the context of the Complaint or waste the courts time and your nonexistent finances trying to make this into more than the Court has acknowledge the case is about. You have your own personal agenda and the Court doesn't care - it just doesn't care what your personal issues are, your personal agenda is, it is going to force you to remain within the appropriate context so you don't waste their time or money.
Another allegation is that donations have declined, and have declined because of us. But they don't want us to touch that one either.
Again, you are trying to add to what has been defined. You want more, you want to spend months and weeks trying to make your case. You want access to all the documents in your list - relevant or not - If you bothered to remain within the context of the Complaint you might actually ave completed your discovery and be in oral arguments already . . . but you just want to go on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on . . . only to in the end be left naked in front of those you have deluded.
So answer my question: why doesn't 3ABN/Danny amend their complaint if they want to narrow discovery?
Here it is, in case you missed it in the beginning of my response . . . I am not going to waste readers time on your questions when they are not relevant or within the context of the Complaint. You can complain, even whine about it, but there is no use or benefit in discussing this. You need to pull back and focus your discovery on those documents and depositions that actually have something to do with the Complaint.
[/color][/b]
Does the GREEN pen come from that of an auditor or other financial officer of 3abn, or is it only coincidence?
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Anyman, you didn't answer my question: why doesn't 3ABN/Danny amend their complaint if they want to narrow discovery?
Mr. Pickle, I am not going to waste the time of those who read here with questions that hold no relevance to the issues being discussed. If you want to ask a question that is applicable, holds relevance, then I may indulge you - but this one, not wasting anyone's time on it.
Look at the complaint. It clearly talks about whether Danny had biblical grounds for divorce or not. But the plaintiffs don't want us to touch that one, it appears.
You are wrong, I pointed this out, you can choose to ignore it or accept it . . . but it has been asked and answered, go back and check.
They also make the allegation that 3ABN is a principled, dedicated ministry, and has been so for more than 20 years, but they don't want us to touch that allegation either.
Your >opinion< in regards to this issue is immaterial. The mission of 3ABN, the work of 3ABN, the dedication of those who work there from top to bottom will convince a jury that you are lowing smoke up the wrong chimney. If 3ABN wanted to parade one witness after another who would testify to the dedication, the principle, and the Christian spirit they could keep the jury in rapt attention for months . . . but then you don't care about the souls lead to the foot of the cross, you just want to be "right," you want to "win," you aren't interested in the saving of souls - or so the fruit on your tree would indicate.
So why don't they simply remove all such allegations form their complaint?
The Complaint is pretty through and successfully outlines the issues that are being litigated. You have to choose . . . let me add some emphasis . . . YOU . . . have to decide if you are going to remain within the context of the Complaint or waste the courts time and your nonexistent finances trying to make this into more than the Court has acknowledge the case is about. You have your own personal agenda and the Court doesn't care - it just doesn't care what your personal issues are, your personal agenda is, it is going to force you to remain within the appropriate context so you don't waste their time or money.
Another allegation is that donations have declined, and have declined because of us. But they don't want us to touch that one either.
Again, you are trying to add to what has been defined. You want more, you want to spend months and weeks trying to make your case. You want access to all the documents in your list - relevant or not - If you bothered to remain within the context of the Complaint you might actually ave completed your discovery and be in oral arguments already . . . but you just want to go on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on . . . only to in the end be left naked in front of those you have deluded.
So answer my question: why doesn't 3ABN/Danny amend their complaint if they want to narrow discovery?
Here it is, in case you missed it in the beginning of my response . . . I am not going to waste readers time on your questions when they are not relevant or within the context of the Complaint. You can complain, even whine about it, but there is no use or benefit in discussing this. You need to pull back and focus your discovery on those documents and depositions that actually have something to do with the Complaint.
[/color][/b]
Does the GREEN pen come from that of an auditor or other financial officer of 3abn, or is it only coincidence?
Spelling test . . . how do you spell, diversion . . . D I V E R S I O N . . . diversion . . .
How about if you focus on the content of the thread? Offer some substantive content to the thread in terms of the points being made. I don't see you addressing anything at all that is contained in my post, in Mr. Pickle's post, or any post in this thread . . . merely a comment meant to try and tie me to some profession in an extended effort to try and connect me to some identity . . . give it up . . . this is a discussion and not a puzzle for you to figure out.
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No need as the Court, more than likely, will require you to stick to the context of the Complaint. Again, you think you can manipulate the court and falsely assume you can operate outside the laws of the land the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure. Time to follow the letter of law Mr. Pickle.
Well, anyman, why doesn't 3ABN/Danny amend their complaint if they want to narrow discovery?
Thank-you Anyman for that clarification. Have you read the allegations? I'd say they have given us pretty broad scope and relevancy is almost anything. In fact, I would challenge you to give me an example of production that is not relevant to the claim. You can get a preview of the arguments that are dead ahead. PACER in advance...nothing too terribly secretive about it!!!
So, ANYMAN, me thinks the problem is FAILURE to Produce, not relevancy. But, I'd love to give you a shot at it!!!
Gailon Arthur Joy
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Don't thank me as I do not do you any favors, nor do I defend your cause or support even an iota of it . . . My heart and my effort belong to the Creator of the Universe, the one and only true God who judges us all. My words are not for your benefit, your defense, your use or my glorification - but for the defense of my Savior.
Once again you walk around the room thumping your chest, banging a gong, bellowing as loud as you can in an effort to distract the "listening" public so thy can't see the truth.
There is no license provided to you . . . only that which you have manufactured in your own dreams. In your head, relevance may be a nebulous thing and open to your interpretation - but that would only be in your delusional perspective. The Court is going to focus narrowly on the Complaint and limited you to those things that you can sufficiently argue are within the original scope of the Complaint. You may think the Court is enamored of you and your pro se position - but the judge and the Court aren't going to buy your snake oil and aren't going to be entertained by your pro se approach. You may have a little paralegal training under you belt, but that is akin to a low single A pitcher going up against Alex Rodriguez.
Here you are wrong again . . . you want the issue to be "failure to produce" when in actuality you are going to be left holding an empty bag because Rule 26 is going to be your undoing. If you cold reign in your out of control partner you might be able to get a little glimmer of acknowledgment from the courts . . . but as it stands, the court is going to see the harassment, the effort to expand the case, the unreasonable demands and is going to shut you down like a bankrupt business . . . oops.
You love to banner wave, chest thump . . . but we all know what "goeth before a fall' . . . In the past you have been able to intimidate, threaten, cajole, manipulate, and subject to false accusations and hyperbole - but not this time. You actually have to stand in front of the Court and meet the letter of the law . . . and wanting you will be.
We'll deal with your abuse of Rule 34 next.
No need as the Court, more than likely, will require you to stick to the context of the Complaint. Again, you think you can manipulate the court and falsely assume you can operate outside the laws of the land the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure. Time to follow the letter of law Mr. Pickle.
Well, anyman, why doesn't 3ABN/Danny amend their complaint if they want to narrow discovery?
Thank-you Anyman for that clarification. Have you read the allegations? I'd say they have given us pretty broad scope and relevancy is almost anything. In fact, I would challenge you to give me an example of production that is not relevant to the claim. You can get a preview of the arguments that are dead ahead. PACER in advance...nothing too terribly secretive about it!!!
So, ANYMAN, me thinks the problem is FAILURE to Produce, not relevancy. But, I'd love to give you a shot at it!!!
Gailon Arthur Joy
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Anyman, looks like you have avoided answering my question again. Here it is again for your reference.
Anyman, you didn't answer my question: why doesn't 3ABN/Danny amend their complaint if they want to narrow discovery?
Look at the complaint. It clearly talks about whether Danny had biblical grounds for divorce or not. But the plaintiffs don't want us to touch that one, it appears.
They also make the allegation that 3ABN is a principled, dedicated ministry, and has been so for more than 20 years, but they don't want us to touch that allegation either.
So why don't they simply remove all such allegations form their complaint?
Another allegation is that donations have declined, and have declined because of us. But they don't want us to touch that one either.
So answer my question: why doesn't 3ABN/Danny amend their complaint if they want to narrow discovery?
You sound pretty naive. You think people testifying that 3ABN is dedicated and principled is going to cut it? No way. The question will be how did 3ABN act in this situation or that situation, and was that reaction principled and dedicated. Mere assertions won't do.
I'd say that if 3ABN didn't fire Tommy, Danny, and Leonard when serious problems came to its attention, and fired or threatened others who were concerned about those serious problems, the jury will not conclude that 3ABN is dedicated and principled.
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Anyman, looks like you have avoided answering my question again. Here it is again for your reference.
Let's see if we can help you out here . . . your question has 1. No relevance to the discussion.2. No relevance to the case, 3. Is a waste of time and cyberspace and 4. Insults the reading public. Based on those four simple and powerful points, I am going to help you out and make it clear one more time - Ask a question that matters and I might respond. Keep asking questions that are not relevant or a waste of space and I will ignore them - whether you like it or not, as my point here is not to make you happy and comfortable.
Anyman, you didn't answer my question: why doesn't 3ABN/Danny amend their complaint if they want to narrow discovery?
Look at the complaint. It clearly talks about whether Danny had biblical grounds for divorce or not. But the plaintiffs don't want us to touch that one, it appears.
They also make the allegation that 3ABN is a principled, dedicated ministry, and has been so for more than 20 years, but they don't want us to touch that allegation either.
So why don't they simply remove all such allegations form their complaint?
Another allegation is that donations have declined, and have declined because of us. But they don't want us to touch that one either.
So answer my question: why doesn't 3ABN/Danny amend their complaint if they want to narrow discovery?
You sound pretty naive. You think people testifying that 3ABN is dedicated and principled is going to cut it? No way. The question will be how did 3ABN act in this situation or that situation, and was that reaction principled and dedicated. Mere assertions won't do.
Naive? : ) . . . if that makes you more comfortable engaging me in discussion go for it, I am quite certain of my ability to read, discern, research, analyze, and spend time on my knees in communication with The God of the Universe to not be intimidated by your bellicosity. Yes, people who attest to the veracity, Christian ethics, power and mission of 3ABN will hold far more weight than your manufactured commentary or hearsay. Has it dawned on you that people in this world get fired for legitimate reasons? Obviously not. It seems as if you haven't spent a moments worth of time wondering, and checking to see, if there was a legitimate reason why someone was fired or let go . . . you have just latched on in hopes that you could spin the words of the disgruntled in a way that would support your agenda.
I'd say that if 3ABN didn't fire Tommy, Danny, and Leonard when serious problems came to its attention, and fired or threatened others who were concerned about those serious problems, the jury will not conclude that 3ABN is dedicated and principled.
Go ahead, base your case on that presumption. When 3ABN streams a 1000++++ people all testifying to the fact that the message and mission of 3ABN changed their lives, led them to the foot of the cross and a life of salvation, in front of the jury . . . are you going to be surprised when members of the jury fall at the foot of the Savior broken and seeking His hand in faith? The jury will weep and wonder how you could be so naive as to believe that you could take up the mantle against the Savior and believe you would win.
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Don't thank me as I do not do you any favors, nor do I defend your cause . . . My heart and my effort belong to the Creator of the Universe, the one and only God who judges us all. My words are not for your benefit, your defense, your use.
Once again you walk around the room thumping your chest, banging a gong, bellowing as loud as you can in an effort to distract the "listening" public so thy can't see the truth.
There is no license provided to you . . . only that which you have manufactured in your own dreams. In your head, relevance may be a nebulous thing and open to your interpretation - but that would only be in your delusional perspective. The Court is going to focus narrowly on the Complaint and limited you to those things that you can sufficiently argue are withing the original scope of the Complaint. You may think the Court is enamored of you and your pro se position - but the judge and the Court aren't going to buy your snake oil and aren't going to be entertained by your pro se approach. you may have a little paralegal training under you belt, but that is like a low single A pitcher going against Alex Rodriguez.
Here you are wrong again . . . you want the issue to be "failure to produce" when in actuality you are going to be left holding an empty bag because Rule 26 is going to be your undoing. If you cold reign in your out of control partner you might be able to get a little glimmer of acknowledgment from the courts . . . but as it stands, the court is going to see the harassment, the effort to expand the case, the unreasonable demands and is going to shut you down like a bankrupt business . . . oops.
You love to banner wave, chest thump . . . but we all know what "goeth before a fall' . . . In the past you have been able to intimidate, threaten, cajole, manipulate, and subject to false accusations and hyperbole - but not this time. You actually have to stand in front of the Court and meet the letter of the law . . . and wanting you will be.
You are hitting the nails right on the head anyman!!! It is one thing to bragg, and "chest thump" as you said, on a simple internet forum. Federal court is another story altogether. I have wondered also how Pickle's youtube videos will affect the courts opinions and rulings. Seems to me that it was a bad mistake and can only hurt their cause. I don't think Joy's arrogance or intimidation tactics will do much to impress the judge either. He will be looking at motives and intent for why they started up the internet stuff in the first place and will see their "real" characters in how and what they post.
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Does the GREEN pen come from that of an auditor or other financial officer of 3abn, or is it only coincidence?
Spelling test . . . how do you spell, diversion . . . D I V E R S I O N . . . diversion . . .
How about if you focus on the content of the thread? Offer some substantive content to the thread in terms of the points being made. I don't see you addressing anything at all that is contained in my post, in Mr. Pickle's post, or any post in this thread . . . merely a comment meant to try and tie me to some profession in an extended effort to try and connect me to some identity . . . give it up . . . this is a discussion and not a puzzle for you to figure out.
[/quote]
Calm down old man! Calm down. You know that anger just isn't good for your blood pressure. You need to take more care of yourself than that. :purr:
Maybe, some Koolaide might help? :dogwag:
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Oh I wish I could contain the laughing . . . "Old man" . . . ROFL . . . Anger, oh dear Ozzie that is precious . . . The 5 - 6 days at the gym finding ways to learn to exercise keep me rather fit and healthy, as the Lord directed. Sorry, there is not anger, only the sense of duty to the Lord of the Universe, the One and Only True God of Creation.
Does the GREEN pen come from that of an auditor or other financial officer of 3abn, or is it only coincidence?
Spelling test . . . how do you spell, diversion . . . D I V E R S I O N . . . diversion . . .
How about if you focus on the content of the thread? Offer some substantive content to the thread in terms of the points being made. I don't see you addressing anything at all that is contained in my post, in Mr. Pickle's post, or any post in this thread . . . merely a comment meant to try and tie me to some profession in an extended effort to try and connect me to some identity . . . give it up . . . this is a discussion and not a puzzle for you to figure out.
Calm down old man! Calm down. You know that anger just isn't good for your blood pressure. You need to take more care of yourself than that.
Maybe, some Koolaide might help?
[/quote]
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anyman, you make an interesting statement about adherents. According to your yardstick the Roman Catholic Church should be the true church since they have accumulated a much greater membership than all the other Christian Churches combined. They are much more successful than 3ABN - so they must have the truth. There should not be any discussion, right?
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Go ahead, base your case on that presumption. When 3ABN streams a 1000++++ people all testifying to the fact that the message and mission of 3ABN changed their lives, led them to the foot of the cross and a life of salvation, in front of the jury . . . are you going to be surprised when members of the jury fall at the foot of the Savior broken and seeking His hand in faith? The jury will weep and wonder how you could be so naive as to believe that you could take up the mantle against the Savior and believe you would win.
Anyman, what relevance do 3ABN fans and their fervor for the religious feelings they get have to this court case? Do you actually believe that the court would allow 3ABN to parade thousands of viewers through and take their testimony regarding the religious feeling that they get from watching 3ABN? LOL!!!! The melodrama of your prediction might carry the day with you, but it is has no relevance to legal realities.
-
Don't thank me as I do not do you any favors, nor do I defend your cause . . . My heart and my effort belong to the Creator of the Universe, the one and only God who judges us all. My words are not for your benefit, your defense, your use.
Once again you walk around the room thumping your chest, banging a gong, bellowing as loud as you can in an effort to distract the "listening" public so thy can't see the truth.
There is no license provided to you . . . only that which you have manufactured in your own dreams. In your head, relevance may be a nebulous thing and open to your interpretation - but that would only be in your delusional perspective. The Court is going to focus narrowly on the Complaint and limited you to those things that you can sufficiently argue are withing the original scope of the Complaint. You may think the Court is enamored of you and your pro se position - but the judge and the Court aren't going to buy your snake oil and aren't going to be entertained by your pro se approach. you may have a little paralegal training under you belt, but that is like a low single A pitcher going against Alex Rodriguez.
Here you are wrong again . . . you want the issue to be "failure to produce" when in actuality you are going to be left holding an empty bag because Rule 26 is going to be your undoing. If you cold reign in your out of control partner you might be able to get a little glimmer of acknowledgment from the courts . . . but as it stands, the court is going to see the harassment, the effort to expand the case, the unreasonable demands and is going to shut you down like a bankrupt business . . . oops.
You love to banner wave, chest thump . . . but we all know what "goeth before a fall' . . . In the past you have been able to intimidate, threaten, cajole, manipulate, and subject to false accusations and hyperbole - but not this time. You actually have to stand in front of the Court and meet the letter of the law . . . and wanting you will be.
You are hitting the nails right on the head anyman!!! It is one thing to bragg, and "chest thump" as you said, on a simple internet forum. Federal court is another story altogether. I have wondered also how Pickle's youtube videos will affect the courts opinions and rulings. Seems to me that it was a bad mistake and can only hurt their cause. I don't think Joy's arrogance or intimidation tactics will do much to impress the judge either. He will be looking at motives and intent for why they started up the internet stuff in the first place and will see their "real" characters in how and what they post.
i was thinking about all that people say here.
may be the good fruits from the 3abn ministry are the people who heard them and followed my Jesus and they can go to court? and the bad fruits are the people who are mad at them?
what are the fruits of Pickles you tub videos and the websites and forums he has here?
Are people being saved and loving Jesus or being mad? will they go to court too?
i don't know who will be in court. i now we are supposed to see the fruits which are showing to all of us.
i will think about this some more.
i see good and bad fruits all the time and want to have fruits like my Jesus :)
sera
=====
Edited to separate the quoted post from this post.
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Anyman, what relevance do 3ABN fans and their fervor for the religious feelings they get have to this court case? Do you actually believe that the court would allow 3ABN to parade thousands of viewers through and take their testimony regarding the religious feeling that they get from watching 3ABN? LOL!!!! The melodrama of your prediction might carry the day with you, but it is has relevance to legal realities.
I'm sure Judas brought people to Jesus too, but that doesn't mean that Judas didn't betray Jesus.
If you have multiple people who say that Leonard said and did such and such in their presence, Tommy said and did such and such in their presence, and Danny himself admits that he did such and such, and if documents confirm what these individuals say, conversions won't negate such testimony.
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Anyman, what relevance do 3ABN fans and their fervor for the religious feelings they get have to this court case? Do you actually believe that the court would allow 3ABN to parade thousands of viewers through and take their testimony regarding the religious feeling that they get from watching 3ABN? LOL!!!! The melodrama of your prediction might carry the day with you, but it is has relevance to legal realities.
I'm sure Judas brought people to Jesus too, but that doesn't mean that Judas didn't betray Jesus.
If you have multiple people who say that Leonard said and did such and such in their presence, Tommy said and did such and such in their presence, and Danny himself admits that he did such and such, and if documents confirm what these individuals say, conversions won't negate such testimony.
Why all the speculation? Why not just wait and see what happens in court instead of the constant arrogant spirit and claims by you and Joy. I know it is extremely hard for you to grasp that you guys are not attorneys, neither of you have had this kind of experience in a Federal Court, and you don't know secret strategies that "real" lawyer's don't know about. That is the truth of the matter. The other truth is that you don't have a clue what will or will not happen when testimony time arrives. I have never heard, seen or read where 3abn attorney's are going around telling how it will be, what will be allowed or not, and ranting that they are going to win. That's because as "real" and experienced attorney's ,they realize you can never predict what a judge will do, how he will react or what his views will be on the relevent laws. Those proffessionals that actually know what they are doing, keep their mouth shut, do their job to the best of their ability and DO NOT participate in speculation and gossip about what may or may not happen.
If you really want people to believe that you "have a clue" then maybe you should do likewise.
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Anyman states that the 3ABN attorneys will bring in over a thousand viewers and have them testify to the jury that they have achieved spiritual salvation by watching 3ABN and this will not only sway the jury, but will cause certain of the jurors to jump on the salvation through 3ABN bandwagon as well. If Anyman's sources are correct and this is the strategy that the 3ABN lawyers have set in place for winning this case (unintentional rhyme) I would be inclined to place my money on the pro-se guys who are using the law to win as opposed to inane televangelistic theatrics.
Anyman, what relevance do 3ABN fans and their fervor for the religious feelings they get have to this court case? Do you actually believe that the court would allow 3ABN to parade thousands of viewers through and take their testimony regarding the religious feeling that they get from watching 3ABN? LOL!!!! The melodrama of your prediction might carry the day with you, but it is has relevance to legal realities.
I'm sure Judas brought people to Jesus too, but that doesn't mean that Judas didn't betray Jesus.
If you have multiple people who say that Leonard said and did such and such in their presence, Tommy said and did such and such in their presence, and Danny himself admits that he did such and such, and if documents confirm what these individuals say, conversions won't negate such testimony.
Why all the speculation? Why not just wait and see what happens in court instead of the constant arrogant spirit and claims by you and Joy. I know it is extremely hard for you to grasp that you guys are not attorneys, neither of you have had this kind of experience in a Federal Court, and you don't know secret strategies that "real" lawyer's don't know about. That is the truth of the matter. The other truth is that you don't have a clue what will or will not happen when testimony time arrives. I have never heard, seen or read where 3abn attorney's are going around telling how it will be, what will be allowed or not, and ranting that they are going to win. That's because as "real" and experienced attorney's ,they realize you can never predict what a judge will do, how he will react or what his views will be on the relevent laws. Those proffessionals that actually know what they are doing, keep their mouth shut, do their job to the best of their ability and DO NOT participate in speculation and gossip about what may or may not happen.
If you really want people to believe that you "have a clue" then maybe you should do likewise.
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So if Pickle and Joy don't know and the "real" lawyer's don't know the secret strategies Who Does? :dunno:
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Only the Shadow knows...
So if Pickle and Joy don't know and the "real" lawyer's don't know the secret strategies Who Does? :dunno:
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Why all the speculation?
I wasn't speculating.
... neither of you have had this kind of experience in a Federal Court,
How do you know?
... and you don't know secret strategies that "real" lawyer's don't know about.
Well, if not even "real" lawyers know them, we must be all right.
I have never heard, seen or read where 3abn attorney's are going around telling how it will be, what will be allowed or not, and ranting that they are going to win.
They're not that stupid. Don't insult them like that. They've seen enough evidence that they know this case is hopeless if it is going to be decided on the basis of truth.
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Don't thank me as I do not do you any favors, nor do I defend your cause or support even an iota of it . . . My heart and my effort belong to the Creator of the Universe, the one and only true God who judges us all. My words are not for your benefit, your defense, your use or my glorification - but for the defense of my Savior.
Once again you walk around the room thumping your chest, banging a gong, bellowing as loud as you can in an effort to distract the "listening" public so thy can't see the truth.
There is no license provided to you . . . only that which you have manufactured in your own dreams. In your head, relevance may be a nebulous thing and open to your interpretation - but that would only be in your delusional perspective. The Court is going to focus narrowly on the Complaint and limited you to those things that you can sufficiently argue are within the original scope of the Complaint. You may think the Court is enamored of you and your pro se position - but the judge and the Court aren't going to buy your snake oil and aren't going to be entertained by your pro se approach. You may have a little paralegal training under you belt, but that is akin to a low single A pitcher going up against Alex Rodriguez.
Here you are wrong again . . . you want the issue to be "failure to produce" when in actuality you are going to be left holding an empty bag because Rule 26 is going to be your undoing. If you cold reign in your out of control partner you might be able to get a little glimmer of acknowledgment from the courts . . . but as it stands, the court is going to see the harassment, the effort to expand the case, the unreasonable demands and is going to shut you down like a bankrupt business . . . oops.
You love to banner wave, chest thump . . . but we all know what "goeth before a fall' . . . In the past you have been able to intimidate, threaten, cajole, manipulate, and subject to false accusations and hyperbole - but not this time. You actually have to stand in front of the Court and meet the letter of the law . . . and wanting you will be.
We'll deal with your abuse of Rule 34 next.
No need as the Court, more than likely, will require you to stick to the context of the Complaint. Again, you think you can manipulate the court and falsely assume you can operate outside the laws of the land the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure. Time to follow the letter of law Mr. Pickle.
Well, anyman, why doesn't 3ABN/Danny amend their complaint if they want to narrow discovery?
Thank-you Anyman for that clarification. Have you read the allegations? I'd say they have given us pretty broad scope and relevancy is almost anything. In fact, I would challenge you to give me an example of production that is not relevant to the claim. You can get a preview of the arguments that are dead ahead. PACER in advance...nothing too terribly secretive about it!!!
So, ANYMAN, me thinks the problem is FAILURE to Produce, not relevancy. But, I'd love to give you a shot at it!!!
Gailon Arthur Joy
Such negative vibes!!! ANYMAN, your bitterness shows through as actually patent hatred. I feel so sorry for you. I have never met a man with such bitternes that had any real connection to a "creator", in whatever form. But, I understand your frustration as 3ABN does not have good track record in litigation.
Any fool who has read the breadth of allegations made by the Plaintiff's understand the breadth of discovery these allegations encompass. IF ONE DOES NOT WANT TO BARE ONES SOLE TO THE WORLD ONE SHOULD STAY OUT OF THE COURTS!!!.
In the interim, can I suggest counselling for your mood problem? Life is just not that horrifying. Litigation is an adversarial game, but does not have to HOSTILE.
Gailon Arthur Joy
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Go ahead, base your case on that presumption. When 3ABN streams a 1000++++ people all testifying to the fact that the message and mission of 3ABN changed their lives, led them to the foot of the cross and a life of salvation, in front of the jury . . . are you going to be surprised when members of the jury fall at the foot of the Savior broken and seeking His hand in faith? The jury will weep and wonder how you could be so naive as to believe that you could take up the mantle against the Savior and believe you would win.
[/quote]
Better expand that witness list. At this point their witness list does not include a single saved sole!!! In fact it is less than twenty people. COMPARED TO NEARLY ONE HUNDRED FOR OUR SIDE...must be they were not PLANNING to go to trial.
I am really beginning to question if you really have a clue?
Gailon Arthur Joy
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Thank you, Mr. Joy, for keeping such a "common sense" approach to this entire situation and keeping the rest of us that are truly interested in the truth, informed in all matters. It must be difficult at times, to stay focused with all the "Drama Queens" trying to distract. Keep up the good work and my prayer is for the Holy Spirit to continue to guide you and strengthen you as this comes to a conclusion.
Jodi
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Yes. I've heard about the basket ball courts/gym on 3abn property. Keep it up, but that won't get you into the Kingdom either. :oops:
Oh I wish I could contain the laughing . . . "Old man" . . . ROFL . . . Anger, oh dear Ozzie that is precious . . . The 5 - 6 days at the gym finding ways to learn to exercise keep me rather fit and healthy, as the Lord directed. Sorry, there is not anger, only the sense of duty to the Lord of the Universe, the One and Only True God of Creation.
Does the GREEN pen come from that of an auditor or other financial officer of 3abn, or is it only coincidence?
Spelling test . . . how do you spell, diversion . . . D I V E R S I O N . . . diversion . . .
How about if you focus on the content of the thread? Offer some substantive content to the thread in terms of the points being made. I don't see you addressing anything at all that is contained in my post, in Mr. Pickle's post, or any post in this thread . . . merely a comment meant to try and tie me to some profession in an extended effort to try and connect me to some identity . . . give it up . . . this is a discussion and not a puzzle for you to figure out.
Calm down old man! Calm down. You know that anger just isn't good for your blood pressure. You need to take more care of yourself than that.
Maybe, some Koolaide might help?
[/quote]
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Go ahead, base your case on that presumption. When 3ABN streams a 1000++++ people all testifying to the fact that the message and mission of 3ABN changed their lives, led them to the foot of the cross and a life of salvation, in front of the jury . . . are you going to be surprised when members of the jury fall at the foot of the Savior broken and seeking His hand in faith? The jury will weep and wonder how you could be so naive as to believe that you could take up the mantle against the Savior and believe you would win.
Anyman, what relevance do 3ABN fans and their fervor for the religious feelings they get have to this court case? Do you actually believe that the court would allow 3ABN to parade thousands of viewers through and take their testimony regarding the religious feeling that they get from watching 3ABN? LOL!!!! The melodrama of your prediction might carry the day with you, but it is has no relevance to legal realities.
Delusions of grandeur, for sure!
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Go ahead, base your case on that presumption. When 3ABN streams a 1000++++ people all testifying to the fact that the message and mission of 3ABN changed their lives, led them to the foot of the cross and a life of salvation, in front of the jury . . . are you going to be surprised when members of the jury fall at the foot of the Savior broken and seeking His hand in faith? The jury will weep and wonder how you could be so naive as to believe that you could take up the mantle against the Savior and believe you would win.
You know, it occurs to me that if you really cared about these 1000 souls that have been drawn to Jesus, you might encourage those "leaders" of yours to make some realistic thoughtful, rapid and unselfish choices regarding the longevity of 3abn and consider the souls that would be gained in the future for the Lord, because at this rate, there will have to be other ministries doing the the job that 3abn could have done, if.....
So, put your ministry where your mouth is, and do something that matters and will make a difference in saving 3abn while you can. You are wasting your time here doing this dance.
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ADMIN HAT ON!!!
We are receiving reports regarding disrespectful posts, however, this is being done by more than one person, and you know who you are, therefore, everybody please be more respectful in your posts.
ADMIN HAT OFF!!!
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By the way, sonshineonme, I wasn't referring to your post.
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Go ahead, base your case on that presumption. When 3ABN streams a 1000++++ people all testifying to the fact that the message and mission of 3ABN changed their lives, led them to the foot of the cross and a life of salvation, in front of the jury . . . are you going to be surprised when members of the jury fall at the foot of the Savior broken and seeking His hand in faith? The jury will weep and wonder how you could be so naive as to believe that you could take up the mantle against the Savior and believe you would win.
You know, it occurs to me that if you really cared about these 1000 souls that have been drawn to Jesus, you might encourage those "leaders" of yours to make some realistic thoughtful, rapid and unselfish choices regarding the longevity of 3abn and consider the souls that would be gained in the future for the Lord, because at this rate, there will have to be other ministries doing the the job that 3abn could have done, if.....
So, put your ministry where your mouth is, and do something that matters and will make a difference in saving 3abn while you can. You are wasting your time here doing this dance.
Where in the world did you get such an idea? You obviously haven't been there so must have gotten this faulty info second or third hand.
I said before I was able to attend the TC/campmeeting and there were record crowds. They give tours of the facilities and they are unbelievable. There is now a new kids time set which is already operational! The sound center recording studio has branched out to be able to offer soundtracks to the public. New programs are in the works! The ladies that take orders and answer questions at the call center say the phones are busy constantly. The thursday night lives are more popular than ever. I know, I called there with a question one thursday night and was on hold for 18 minutes!
Next time you take one of your walks, contemplate the truth of this matter instead of how you want it to be.
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Auchwitz has larger and more spectacular tours than any tour 3ABN will ever concoct.
One Nazi rally drew bigger crowds than twenty years worth of 3ABN TC/Campmeetings.
The subsidiaries of Sony, Warner, and Death Row Records have sold more sound tracks in a day than 3ABN Sound Center will sell in a decade.
Record crowds, calls, sales, and hold times are no measure of right or good.
Remember what the members of Heaven's Gate, People's Temple, Colonia Dignidad, the Branch Davidians, the Mujahideen, and innumerable other cults and extremists have said when confronted? Sound familiar? It should. You are doing a great job of making 3ABN sound like just another of those cults. You sound just like them and thats sad and alarming.
Contemplate the truth of this matter, Sam. What would you have been in Germany, Chile, Waco, and many other places?
Where in the world did you get such an idea? You obviously haven't been there so must have gotten this faulty info second or third hand.
I said before I was able to attend the TC/campmeeting and there were record crowds. They give tours of the facilities and they are unbelievable. There is now a new kids time set which is already operational! The sound center recording studio has branched out to be able to offer soundtracks to the public. New programs are in the works! The ladies that take orders and answer questions at the call center say the phones are busy constantly. The thursday night lives are more popular than ever. I know, I called there with a question one thursday night and was on hold for 18 minutes!
Next time you take one of your walks, contemplate the truth of this matter instead of how you want it to be.
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Junebug,
Habanero made a valid point. When people justify Danny Shelton's aberrations by playing a numbers game, if one plays that same game with unquestionably inappropriate entities, those entities win the numbers game.
In other words, the numbers game is not a valid argument, and never has been.
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Junebug,
Habanero made a valid point. When people justify Danny Shelton's aberrations by playing a numbers game, if one plays that same game with unquestionably inappropriate entities, those entities win the numbers game.
In other words, the numbers game is not a valid argument, and never has been.
Bob, I agree with the philosophical point that Habanero was making as well as your summation that I have bolded. However, are you both certain that the point of Sam's post was to "justify Danny Shelton's aberrations by playing a numbers game"? Plus, have you adequately established that Danny Shelton does, indeed, have aberrations since you didn't refer to them as "alleged". I do know that you have mentioned the huge amount of documentation that you have, but are you certain it is all flawlessly factual, enough so to claim aberrations as you have?
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To qualify, Sam's recent post was specifically to show that, because of the numbers, 3ABN was not about to go down the tubes.
Certain aspects of Danny's conduct are indisputable, from what I can tell. Other aspects some people will try to dispute.
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Grandma Nettie, I was not accusing Danny Shelton of abberations or talking about justifying them. I was making a point to Sam that numbers are not a measure of good and bad. In fact I mentioned the the Nazis, the music companies, Girls Gone Wild, and Penthouse to demonstrate that although they are 180 degees opposite of Danny Shelton and 3ABN they have bigger numbers.
Junebug,
Habanero made a valid point. When people justify Danny Shelton's aberrations by playing a numbers game, if one plays that same game with unquestionably inappropriate entities, those entities win the numbers game.
In other words, the numbers game is not a valid argument, and never has been.
Bob, I agree with the philosophical point that Habanero was making as well as your summation that I have bolded. However, are you both certain that the point of Sam's post was to "justify Danny Shelton's aberrations by playing a numbers game"? Plus, have you adequately established that Danny Shelton does, indeed, have aberrations since you didn't refer to them as "alleged". I do know that you have mentioned the huge amount of documentation that you have, but are you certain it is all flawlessly factual, enough so to claim aberrations as you have?
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Auchwitz has larger and more spectacular tours than any tour 3ABN will ever concoct.
One Nazi rally drew bigger crowds than twenty years worth of 3ABN TC/Campmeetings.
The subsidiaries of Sony, Warner, and Death Row Records have sold more sound tracks in a day than 3ABN Sound Center will sell in a decade.
Record crowds, calls, sales, and hold times are no measure of right or good.
Remember what the members of Heaven's Gate, People's Temple, Colonia Dignidad, the Branch Davidians, the Mujahideen, and innumerable other cults and extremists have said when confronted? Sound familiar? It should. You are doing a great job of making 3ABN sound like just another of those cults. You sound just like them and thats sad and alarming.
Contemplate the truth of this matter, Sam. What would you have been in Germany, Chile, Waco, and many other places?
Very good points, all of the above!
Even Adventist pastors have sometimes been accused playing the numbers game to try to make their church performances look better.
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I know you weren't. I was in a hurry to finish my post before an appointment and I see where I said "are you both certain" when it should have said "are you certain" because I was speaking directly to Bob. I totally agree with your point, as I often do. I should have commented separately on your post so as not to cause any confusion.
Grandma Nettie, I was not accusing Danny Shelton of abberations or talking about justifying them. I was making a point to Sam that numbers are not a measure of good and bad. In fact I mentioned the the Nazis, the music companies, Girls Gone Wild, and Penthouse to demonstrate that although they are 180 degees opposite of Danny Shelton and 3ABN they have bigger numbers.
Junebug,
Habanero made a valid point. When people justify Danny Shelton's aberrations by playing a numbers game, if one plays that same game with unquestionably inappropriate entities, those entities win the numbers game.
In other words, the numbers game is not a valid argument, and never has been.
Bob, I agree with the philosophical point that Habanero was making as well as your summation that I have bolded. However, are you both certain that the point of Sam's post was to "justify Danny Shelton's aberrations by playing a numbers game"? Plus, have you adequately established that Danny Shelton does, indeed, have aberrations since you didn't refer to them as "alleged". I do know that you have mentioned the huge amount of documentation that you have, but are you certain it is all flawlessly factual, enough so to claim aberrations as you have?
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I'm now wondering if I used a word that has connotations I wasn't intending. What exactly does aberration mean?
I meant something along the lines of misdeeds or inappropriate conduct.
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I would understand that word, when describing behaviour, to mean something different from what was normal or usual for that individual or situation.
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Well, if that is what it means, is it normal for people to sue under the circumstances we have? Is it normal for someone to allow a preacher to compare them to Moses and put them beyond human correction?
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I would understand that word, when describing behaviour, to mean something different from what was normal or usual for that individual or situation.
That is my understanding of that terminology too Emma - a term used most frequently by psychologists and those working in related disciplines.
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Well, if that is what it means, is it normal for people to sue under the circumstances we have? Is it normal for someone to allow a preacher to compare them to Moses and put them beyond human correction?
No. It's not 'normal' (whatever 'normal' means'), but it certainly smacks of delusions of grandeur! :hot:
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ADMIN NOTE: Quoted post by Jack Indabocks edited out
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:welcome: Jack to Advent Talk!
Your above lengthy discourse on the evils of pornography is indeed unusual for the Advent Talk forum, which generally tries to maintain a higher tone of communication.
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ADMIN NOTE: Quoted post by Jack Indabocks edited out
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You know Jack, I doubt that most people would have known what was being referred to, if you hadn't enlightened all and sundry. I doubt that this topic should be here in AT. I'll have a yarn with the Moderators here, as I personally, find it quite inappropriate.
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Auchwitz has larger and more spectacular tours than any tour 3ABN will ever concoct.
One Nazi rally drew bigger crowds than twenty years worth of 3ABN TC/Campmeetings.
The subsidiaries of Sony, Warner, and Death Row Records have sold more sound tracks in a day than 3ABN Sound Center will sell in a decade.
Record crowds, calls, sales, and hold times are no measure of right or good.
Remember what the members of Heaven's Gate, People's Temple, Colonia Dignidad, the Branch Davidians, the Mujahideen, and innumerable other cults and extremists have said when confronted? Sound familiar? It should. You are doing a great job of making 3ABN sound like just another of those cults. You sound just like them and thats sad and alarming.
Contemplate the truth of this matter, Sam. What would you have been in Germany, Chile, Waco, and many other places?
Where in the world did you get such an idea? You obviously haven't been there so must have gotten this faulty info second or third hand.
I said before I was able to attend the TC/campmeeting and there were record crowds. They give tours of the facilities and they are unbelievable. There is now a new kids time set which is already operational! The sound center recording studio has branched out to be able to offer soundtracks to the public. New programs are in the works! The ladies that take orders and answer questions at the call center say the phones are busy constantly. The thursday night lives are more popular than ever. I know, I called there with a question one thursday night and was on hold for 18 minutes!
Next time you take one of your walks, contemplate the truth of this matter instead of how you want it to be.
Habanero and Bob, My post had nothing whatsoever to do with record crowds or "numbers games" as you have stated. It was about the "Life" of 3abn which, to me, is defined as it's outreach, it's ministry, the growing and expansion..... My comments were in answer to SSOM's post and insinuation that poor 3abn was going down the drain never to be heard from again when in reality as I saw for myself, it is THRIVING! God is good.
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Yes, God is good. But the Bible says that He changes not. Do you believe the Bible, Sam?
Throughout Scripture it makes it quite clear that the blessings of God in His work are conditional upon obedience. A case in point is in Joshua. The Israelites marched around Jericho once a day for six days, not saying a word. Then on the seventh day they went around seven times, and then shouted for all they were worth. God did the rest, what they could not do, and the walls were flat in record time.
Then on to Ai and 30+ Israelites died. Joshua was aghast and beside himself, but God told him to get up. The problem was that there was sin in the camp. One man's sin cost the lives of 30+ Israelites throughout the forfeiture of God's blessing.
Ellen White has a bit to say about this subject.
So Sam, do you believe what the Bible says? Do you believe that if sin is left to remain in the 3ABN camp, that it will forfeit God's blessing and invite His wrath, though it slumber long?
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Though it slumber long. After all, even Jerusalem stood almost 40 years after the Son of God was brutally tortured and murdered, but it eventually met the fate it had chosen.
But in 66 AD the Jews there were about to surrender to Cestius, though Cestius didn't know it. So he retreated, and the Jews took that as a sign that God was with them. They followed the retreating Romans and massacred many of them. With both the Romans and the Jews gone, the Christians got out of there, for they knew the sign that Christ had given them for when it would be time to flee.
The Jews were certain that the Romans' retreat was the blessing of God for them, and that event inspired them to ever afterwards refuse to surrender, trusting that God would deliver them again. But they misread the purpose of His providence. Not for them was that retreat, but for the Christians. And their misreading that providence inspired them in such a way that it brought about their own destruction rather than deliverance.
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From Miriam-Webster online:
Main Enrty: aberration
Function: noun
Etymology: Latin aberrare
Date: 1594
1 : the fact or an instance of being aberrant especially from a moral standard or normal state
2 : failure of a mirror, refracting surface, or lens to produce exact point-to-point correspondence between an object and its image
3 : unsoundness or disorder of the mind
4 : a small periodic change of apparent position in celestial bodies due to the combined effect of the motion of light and the motion of the observer
Main Entry: aberrant
Function: adjective
Etymology: Latin aberrant-, aberrans, present participle of aberrare to go astray, from ab- + errare to wander, err
Date: circa 1780
1 : straying from the right or normal way
2 : deviating from the usual or natural type : atypical
Well, if that is what it means, is it normal for people to sue under the circumstances we have?
By what I have observed, at least here in this country, yes, it is normal for people to sue. Many people sue for far less. It's just the way many people solve their problems. Yes, I know you feel that the suit is attempting to constrain or threaten your First Amendment rights, but it is normal for people to sue for such.
Is it normal for someone to allow a preacher to compare them to Moses and put them beyond human correction?
Is it normal for someone to allow Gailon to compare Fran to Jesus writing in the dust and chasing away the Pharisees?
Isnt' it the right, under the First Amendment, for both the preacher and Gailon to say what they want, even if it might be offensive to others?
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Though it slumber long. After all, even Jerusalem stood almost 40 years after the Son of God was brutally tortured and murdered, but it eventually met the fate it had chosen.
But in 66 AD the Jews there were about to surrender to Cestius, though Cestius didn't know it. So he retreated, and the Jews took that as a sign that God was with them. They followed the retreating Romans and massacred many of them. With both the Romans and the Jews gone, the Christians got out of there, for they knew the sign that Christ had given them for when it would be time to flee.
The Jews were certain that the Romans' retreat was the blessing of God for them, and that event inspired them to ever afterwards refuse to surrender, trusting that God would deliver them again. But they misread the purpose of His providence. Not for them was that retreat, but for the Christians. And their misreading that providence inspired them in such a way that it brought about their own destruction rather than deliverance.
Mimekomeha malkenu tofi'a vetimloh aleynu ki mehakim anahnu lah. Matay timloh betziyon bekarov beyameynu le'olam va'ed tishkon. Titgadal vetitkadash betoh yerushalayim ireha ledor vador ulnetzah netzahim.
We sang this in Shabbat Service this morning...a beautiful and haunting melody...the hope of the Jewish people...
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Perhaps you could translate the song so that the readers could know what the hope of the Jewish people is.
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And from Your dwelling-place, our Sovereign appear,
and reign among us,
for we wait for You.
When will You reign in Zion?
Soon, and in our lifetime,
may Your greatness and Your holiness be realized
in Jerusalem, Your city.
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Yes, God is good. But the Bible says that He changes not. Do you believe the Bible, Sam?
Throughout Scripture it makes it quite clear that the blessings of God in His work are conditional upon obedience. A case in point is in Joshua. The Israelites marched around Jericho once a day for six days, not saying a word. Then on the seventh day they went around seven times, and then shouted for all they were worth. God did the rest, what they could not do, and the walls were flat in record time.
Then on to Ai and 30+ Israelites died. Joshua was aghast and beside himself, but God told him to get up. The problem was that there was sin in the camp. One man's sin cost the lives of 30+ Israelites throughout the forfeiture of God's blessing.
Ellen White has a bit to say about this subject.
So Sam, do you believe what the Bible says? Do you believe that if sin is left to remain in the 3ABN camp, that it will forfeit God's blessing and invite His wrath, though it slumber long?
Bob, do you believe that there is no sin among the leadership of the Seventh-day Adventist church? Rather unlikely, don't you think? Where is the SaveTheSDAChurch website or discussion forum? Do you believe that in your investigation of 3abn you and Gailon are doing God's work? Are you sinless as you proceed? Are you obeying God completely? Are you requiring that everyone who helps you in this endeavor conducts themselves in total obedience to God?
Think about Habanero's recent post that you invoked to challenge Sam. Does wild success necessarily mean God is blessing? No. And the converse is also true. Look at Job. His life was thown into an ash heap. Everything was stripped away from him. His friends came to him chastising him about the sin in his life that had caused the removal of God's blessing. Were they correct? No.
I am not inferring that Danny Shelton or his leadership are either sinful or sinfree. I'm just suggesting that perhaps you are using a rather flawed argument here. If the Aichen example applies to the SDA Denomination, every Christian Ministry and the Body of Christ, we are all in deep, deep trouble because "there is none perfect, no not one". I am under the impression that when Jesus laid down His life and then rose again, we entered into a new era. Not an era of permissiveness, but of Grace...Redeemed by the blood of the Lamb and covered by His Righteousness, not our own.
God changes not. Behold the lamb that was slain from the foundation of the world. It is people who misinterpret and misapply what He has said and who He is. When will WE change and get it right?
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And from Your dwelling-place, our Sovereign appear,
and reign among us,
for we wait for You.
When will You reign in Zion?
Soon, and in our lifetime,
may Your greatness and Your holiness be realized
in Jerusalem, Your city.
Thank you, Artiste. Beautiful words, indeed.
In the Lord's Prayer, Jesus said
Our Father, who art in heaven....
The Aramaic words used here, per my pastor, mean that heaven is all around us, not some remote spot far off in some corner of the universe. In my thinking, that means that hope has already been realized. God is with us. All around us. Closer than the very air we breathe.
The Lord's Prayer sung in Syriac Aramaic, thought by some to be the language Jesus spoke (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8BUDEx7XEI&feature=related)
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Are you??
Are you sinless as you proceed? Are you obeying God completely? Are you requiring that everyone who helps you in this endeavor conducts themselves in total obedience to God?
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By what I have observed, at least here in this country, yes, it is normal for people to sue. Many people sue for far less. It's just the way many people solve their problems. Yes, I know you feel that the suit is attempting to constrain or threaten your First Amendment rights, but it is normal for people to sue for such.
I've seen and heard of a lot of things, but I've never seen or heard of a Seventh-day Adventist suing those who were concerned about child molestation allegations. I cannot consider this behavior normal because I've never seen or heard of a Seventh-day Adventist doing this before.
Is it normal for someone to allow Gailon to compare Fran to Jesus writing in the dust and chasing away the Pharisees?
Is that what Gailon did? Did Gailon compare Fran to Jesus and then state that she was divine or our savior or some such? Or was he simply drawing a comparison between two situations?
Danny allowed John Lomacang unrebuked to compare him to Moses and then draw from that the conclusion that criticism and concerns about Danny's actions were wrong.
Isnt' it the right, under the First Amendment, for both the preacher and Gailon to say what they want, even if it might be offensive to others?
It would also be allowed under the First Amendment for John Lomacang to curse and swear, but that doesn't mean he should continue to stand behind a pulpit if he chooses to engage in such behavior. Likewise, he is free under the First Amendment to teach the rank heresy that Danny is beyond human correction, but if he continues to do so, he should not do it over the airwaves of 3ABN or under the employ of the Seventh-day Adventist Church.
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I'm just suggesting that perhaps you are using a rather flawed argument here.
Not so. I suggest you do a little study into Spirit of Prophecy comments on the story of Achan.
Achan's sin brought disaster upon the whole nation. For one man's sin the displeasure of God will rest upon His church till the transgression is searched out and put away. The influence most to be feared by the church is not that of open opposers, infidels, and blasphemers, but of inconsistent professors of Christ. These are the ones that keep back the blessing of the God of Israel and bring weakness upon His people.
When the church is in difficulty, when coldness and spiritual declension exist, giving occasion for the enemies of God to triumph, then, instead of folding their hands and lamenting their unhappy state, let its members inquire if there is not an Achan in the camp. With humiliation and searching of heart, let each seek to discover the hidden sins that shut out God's presence. (PP 497)
The history of Achan teaches the solemn lesson that for one man's sin the displeasure of God will rest upon a people or a nation till the transgression is searched out and punished. Sin is corrupting in its nature. One man infected with its deadly leprosy may communicate the taint to thousands. Those who occupy responsible positions as guardians of the people are false to their trust if they do not faithfully search out and reprove sin. Many dare not condemn iniquity, lest they shall thereby sacrifice position or popularity. And by some it is considered uncharitable to rebuke sin. The servant of God should never allow his own spirit to be mingled with the reproof which he is required to give; but he is under the most solemn obligation to present the Word of God, without fear or favor. He must call sin by its right name. Those who by their carelessness or indifference permit God's name to be dishonored by His professed people, are numbered with the transgressor,--registered in the record of heaven as partakers in their evil deeds. (2BC 996)
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Since the dawn of recorded history people have tried to circumvent human nature, without exception unsuccessfully.
Each player in this drama and each active spectator is acting the same part that has been played thousands of times by counterparts all over the world for as long as there have been people. The names and faces are different but the roles are the same. WE don't change and get it right. History doesn't support that, it just repeats itself again and again. A wheel going round and round.
When will WE change and get it right?
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Even Adventist pastors have sometimes been accused playing the numbers game to try to make their church performances look better.
That is so true and I have major objections to that practice.
Isn't tithe allocated on the basis of number of church members in each Church?
I have a pet grievance about keeping people on the roll who haven't been heard of for years, just so the numbers 'look right'.
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I'm just suggesting that perhaps you are using a rather flawed argument here.
Not so. I suggest you do a little study into Spirit of Prophecy comments on the story of Achan.
Achan's sin brought disaster upon the whole nation. For one man's sin the displeasure of God will rest upon His church till the transgression is searched out and put away. The influence most to be feared by the church is not that of open opposers, infidels, and blasphemers, but of inconsistent professors of Christ. These are the ones that keep back the blessing of the God of Israel and bring weakness upon His people.
When the church is in difficulty, when coldness and spiritual declension exist, giving occasion for the enemies of God to triumph, then, instead of folding their hands and lamenting their unhappy state, let its members inquire if there is not an Achan in the camp. With humiliation and searching of heart, let each seek to discover the hidden sins that shut out God's presence. (PP 497)
The history of Achan teaches the solemn lesson that for one man's sin the displeasure of God will rest upon a people or a nation till the transgression is searched out and punished. Sin is corrupting in its nature. One man infected with its deadly leprosy may communicate the taint to thousands. Those who occupy responsible positions as guardians of the people are false to their trust if they do not faithfully search out and reprove sin. Many dare not condemn iniquity, lest they shall thereby sacrifice position or popularity. And by some it is considered uncharitable to rebuke sin. The servant of God should never allow his own spirit to be mingled with the reproof which he is required to give; but he is under the most solemn obligation to present the Word of God, without fear or favor. He must call sin by its right name. Those who by their carelessness or indifference permit God's name to be dishonored by His professed people, are numbered with the transgressor,--registered in the record of heaven as partakers in their evil deeds. (2BC 996)
Read this prayerfully, Bob. Can you honestly say that you and Gailon have followed the counsel in paragraph two? I have seen and experienced otherwise and have seen clearly documented here and elsewhere that this counsel has not been followed.
The Ellen G. White 1888 Materials (1987), page 144, paragraph 2-3
Chapter Title: Talk to Ministers
There was a time when Israel could not prevail against their enemies. This was because of Achan's sin. God declared, "Neither will I be with you any more, except ye destroy the accursed thing from among you." God is the same today. If defiling sins are cherished by those who claim to believe the truth, the displeasure of God rests upon the church, and He will not remove it until the members do all in their power to show their hatred for sin, and their determination to cast it out of the church. God is displeased with those who call evil good and good evil. If jealousy, evil surmising, and evil-speaking are allowed to have a place in the church, that church is under the frown of God. It will be spiritually unhealthy until it is cleansed from these sins, for till then God cannot reveal His power to strengthen and elevate His people and give them victory.
God is not pleased with the slothful work done in the churches. He expects His stewards to be true and faithful in giving reproof and correction. They are to expel wrong after the rule God has given in His Word, not according to their own ideas and impulses. No harsh means must be used, no unfair, hasty, impulsive work done. The efforts made to cleanse the church from moral uncleanness must be made in God's way. There must be no partiality, no hypocrisy. There must be no favorites, whose sins are regarded as less sinful than those of others. Oh, how much we all need the baptism of the Holy Ghost. Then we shall always work with the mind of Christ, with kindness, compassion, and sympathy, showing love for the sinner while hating sin with a perfect hatred.
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Sadly, so very true. I have faith that I can change, that you can change... that there is hope for truth and understanding. It won't happen by following man's image of God, but by actually discovering for ourselves the true God, and then loving our fellow humans just as deeply and compassionately as He loves us and as we need to love ourselves.
Since the dawn of recorded history people have tried to circumvent human nature, without exception unsuccessfully.
Each player in this drama and each active spectator is acting the same part that has been played thousands of times by counterparts all over the world for as long as there have been people. The names and faces are different but the roles are the same. WE don't change and get it right. History doesn't support that, it just repeats itself again and again. A wheel going round and round.
When will WE change and get it right?
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Of course not.
Are you??
Are you sinless as you proceed? Are you obeying God completely? Are you requiring that everyone who helps you in this endeavor conducts themselves in total obedience to God?
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Read this prayerfully, GrandmaNettie. Can you honestly say that you and ImaAnt have followed the counsel in paragraph two? I have seen and experienced otherwise and have seen clearly documented here and elsewhere that this counsel has not been followed.
The Ellen G. White 1888 Materials (1987), page 144, paragraph 2-3
Chapter Title: Talk to Ministers
There was a time when Israel could not prevail against their enemies. This was because of Achan's sin. God declared, "Neither will I be with you any more, except ye destroy the accursed thing from among you." God is the same today. If defiling sins are cherished by those who claim to believe the truth, the displeasure of God rests upon the church, and He will not remove it until the members do all in their power to show their hatred for sin, and their determination to cast it out of the church. God is displeased with those who call evil good and good evil. If jealousy, evil surmising, and evil-speaking are allowed to have a place in the church, that church is under the frown of God. It will be spiritually unhealthy until it is cleansed from these sins, for till then God cannot reveal His power to strengthen and elevate His people and give them victory.
God is not pleased with the slothful work done in the churches. He expects His stewards to be true and faithful in giving reproof and correction. They are to expel wrong after the rule God has given in His Word, not according to their own ideas and impulses. No harsh means must be used, no unfair, hasty, impulsive work done. The efforts made to cleanse the church from moral uncleanness must be made in God's way. There must be no partiality, no hypocrisy. There must be no favorites, whose sins are regarded as less sinful than those of others. Oh, how much we all need the baptism of the Holy Ghost. Then we shall always work with the mind of Christ, with kindness, compassion, and sympathy, showing love for the sinner while hating sin with a perfect hatred.
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But Snoopy, don't you realise that they don't think those words apply to them. This is just another case of 'abusive behaviour', where people are prepared to hit others over the head with Scripture (in this case, SOP), without thinking how it applies to them.
Just don't expect them to replace themselves in the same situation. They just can't (won't) see it. And... don't speak of loyalty anywhere either, as they wouldn't have a clue what that means either. :hot: So sad. :(
Read this prayerfully, GrandmaNettie. Can you honestly say that you and ImaAnt have followed the counsel in paragraph two? I have seen and experienced otherwise and have seen clearly documented here and elsewhere that this counsel has not been followed.
The Ellen G. White 1888 Materials (1987), page 144, paragraph 2-3
Chapter Title: Talk to Ministers
There was a time when Israel could not prevail against their enemies. This was because of Achan's sin. God declared, "Neither will I be with you any more, except ye destroy the accursed thing from among you." God is the same today. If defiling sins are cherished by those who claim to believe the truth, the displeasure of God rests upon the church, and He will not remove it until the members do all in their power to show their hatred for sin, and their determination to cast it out of the church. God is displeased with those who call evil good and good evil. If jealousy, evil surmising, and evil-speaking are allowed to have a place in the church, that church is under the frown of God. It will be spiritually unhealthy until it is cleansed from these sins, for till then God cannot reveal His power to strengthen and elevate His people and give them victory.
God is not pleased with the slothful work done in the churches. He expects His stewards to be true and faithful in giving reproof and correction. They are to expel wrong after the rule God has given in His Word, not according to their own ideas and impulses. No harsh means must be used, no unfair, hasty, impulsive work done. The efforts made to cleanse the church from moral uncleanness must be made in God's way. There must be no partiality, no hypocrisy. There must be no favorites, whose sins are regarded as less sinful than those of others. Oh, how much we all need the baptism of the Holy Ghost. Then we shall always work with the mind of Christ, with kindness, compassion, and sympathy, showing love for the sinner while hating sin with a perfect hatred.
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It is sad, Ozzie. I know the same logic can be applied to things I may have said as well. It is easy to take scripture or SOP and use it to try to point out the speck in someone else's eye while looking past the plank in our own. Unfortunately it sometimes comes off as not sounding like one might have intended it to sound. We all have our own perspectives and opinions of what is going on, but I think we all could do well to try to respect the perspectives and opinions of others who may have a different vantage point than our own.
But Snoopy, don't you realise that they don't think those words apply to them. This is just another case of 'abusive behaviour', where people are prepared to hit others over the head with Scripture (in this case, SOP), without thinking how it applies to them.
Just don't expect them to replace themselves in the same situation. They just can't (won't) see it. And... don't speak of loyalty anywhere either, as they wouldn't have a clue what that means either. :hot: So sad. :(
Read this prayerfully, GrandmaNettie. Can you honestly say that you and ImaAnt have followed the counsel in paragraph two? I have seen and experienced otherwise and have seen clearly documented here and elsewhere that this counsel has not been followed.
The Ellen G. White 1888 Materials (1987), page 144, paragraph 2-3
Chapter Title: Talk to Ministers
There was a time when Israel could not prevail against their enemies. This was because of Achan's sin. God declared, "Neither will I be with you any more, except ye destroy the accursed thing from among you." God is the same today. If defiling sins are cherished by those who claim to believe the truth, the displeasure of God rests upon the church, and He will not remove it until the members do all in their power to show their hatred for sin, and their determination to cast it out of the church. God is displeased with those who call evil good and good evil. If jealousy, evil surmising, and evil-speaking are allowed to have a place in the church, that church is under the frown of God. It will be spiritually unhealthy until it is cleansed from these sins, for till then God cannot reveal His power to strengthen and elevate His people and give them victory.
God is not pleased with the slothful work done in the churches. He expects His stewards to be true and faithful in giving reproof and correction. They are to expel wrong after the rule God has given in His Word, not according to their own ideas and impulses. No harsh means must be used, no unfair, hasty, impulsive work done. The efforts made to cleanse the church from moral uncleanness must be made in God's way. There must be no partiality, no hypocrisy. There must be no favorites, whose sins are regarded as less sinful than those of others. Oh, how much we all need the baptism of the Holy Ghost. Then we shall always work with the mind of Christ, with kindness, compassion, and sympathy, showing love for the sinner while hating sin with a perfect hatred.
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You are right on a very micro level, but on the macro level the pattern never changes in spite of millenia of passionate rhetoric advocating and claiming the key to change. It has never happened And I don't think it will happen now. Human nature is what it is.
Understanding can sometimes happen but truth? Truth an elusive thing that is very nebulous. It is spread around the world broken up into many tiny pieces, many of them undetectable. We all may have a piece of the truth of various matters, but who has it all?
Sadly, so very true. I have faith that I can change, that you can change... that there is hope for truth and understanding. It won't happen by following man's image of God, but by actually discovering for ourselves the true God, and then loving our fellow humans just as deeply and compassionately as He loves us and as we need to love ourselves.
Since the dawn of recorded history people have tried to circumvent human nature, without exception unsuccessfully.
Each player in this drama and each active spectator is acting the same part that has been played thousands of times by counterparts all over the world for as long as there have been people. The names and faces are different but the roles are the same. WE don't change and get it right. History doesn't support that, it just repeats itself again and again. A wheel going round and round.
When will WE change and get it right?
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You are right on a very micro level, but on the macro level the pattern never changes in spite of millenia of passionate rhetoric advocating and claiming the key to change. It has never happened And I don't think it will happen now. Human nature is what it is.
Understanding can sometimes happen but truth? Truth an elusive thing that is very nebulous. It is spread around the world broken up into many tiny pieces, many of them undetectable. We all may have a piece of the truth of various matters, but who has it all?
Yes, truth appears often in pieces, and other pieces of truth my give it a different hue when they appear. Does that prevent us from accepting the pieces of truth which have been revealed to us?
When lying lips attempt to give the appearance of truth, what then?
edited to delete a word. . .
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Read this prayerfully, Bob. Can you honestly say that you and Gailon have followed the counsel in paragraph two? I have seen and experienced otherwise and have seen clearly documented here and elsewhere that this counsel has not been followed.
I believe you've changed the subject. I raised the issue of knowingly allowing sin in the camp. Of course it must be dealt with appropriately, but we cannot let cautiousness about how to deal with it keep us from dealing with it at all.
When Moses, on returning to the camp, confronted the rebels, his severe rebukes and the indignation he displayed in breaking the sacred tables of the law were contrasted by the people with his brother's pleasant speech and dignified demeanor, and their sympathies were with Aaron. To justify himself, Aaron endeavored to make the people responsible for his weakness in yielding to their demand; but notwithstanding this, they were filled with admiration of his gentleness and patience. But God seeth not as man sees. Aaron's yielding spirit and his desire to please had blinded his eyes to the enormity of the crime he was sanctioning. His course in giving his influence to sin in Israel cost the life of thousands. In what contrast with this was the course of Moses, who, while faithfully executing God's judgments, showed that the welfare of Israel was dearer to him than prosperity or honor or life. (PP 323)
I quote that not to justify harshness, but to point out that sometimes we err in our judgment of whether this one or that one is right or wrong in a controversy such as we are in.
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Yes, truth appears often in pieces, and other pieces of truth my give it a different hue when they appear. Does that prevent us from accepting the pieces of truth which have been revealed to us?
When lying lips attempt to give the appearance of truth, what then?
When lying lips present justification for itching ears then they hear what they want to hear.
edited by Johann to delete a word in my post
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Yes, human nature is what it is, but within that broad stroke lies the hope I cling to. Not all humans have a nature with the characteristics or reasoning of Torquemada, or Hitler, or Dahmer, or Travesser or his empty-minded Strong City followers. There are the Plutarchs and Thoreaus and Dalis and Ghandis and Evoys... the Alice Millers and Habaneros and others who question the status quo in every generation... many who see the intrinsic value of each human soul, who don't tread the rigid road paved by the generations before them but, instead, attempt to make sense out of this existance. Perhaps what we can garner from each only adds to our understanding, but it is a start. Perhaps that wheel isn't simply spinning, but going a little bit forward as it goes round and round.
You are right on a very micro level, but on the macro level the pattern never changes in spite of millenia of passionate rhetoric advocating and claiming the key to change. It has never happened And I don't think it will happen now. Human nature is what it is.
Understanding can sometimes happen but truth? Truth an elusive thing that is very nebulous. It is spread around the world broken up into many tiny pieces, many of them undetectable. We all may have a piece of the truth of various matters, but who has it all?
Sadly, so very true. I have faith that I can change, that you can change... that there is hope for truth and understanding. It won't happen by following man's image of God, but by actually discovering for ourselves the true God, and then loving our fellow humans just as deeply and compassionately as He loves us and as we need to love ourselves.
Since the dawn of recorded history people have tried to circumvent human nature, without exception unsuccessfully.
Each player in this drama and each active spectator is acting the same part that has been played thousands of times by counterparts all over the world for as long as there have been people. The names and faces are different but the roles are the same. WE don't change and get it right. History doesn't support that, it just repeats itself again and again. A wheel going round and round.
When will WE change and get it right?
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Since this thread is way off the original topic.
Does it not seem strange to those that mantian that Mr. Joy and Mr. Pickle are why off base.
Fail to do the one thing that would SHUT the mouths of both of these men the fastest.
You ask what might be.
The answer is very simple.
PRODUCE the the proof that Linda shelton was in fact having an affair on danny that gives him grounds for the divorce.
I mean AFTER ALL linda double even tripled dared all danny's defenders to do so. Take her up and lets end this today.
and well your are at have tommy issue a simple and clear denial of the horrible actions he is accused of doing. not a many page rambling mess that is his only public statement on the issue.
the beauty of doing those two things will be quickly seen when Mr. Joy and Mr. pickle show up barefoot to stand in the sun or snow begging Mr. gilley for the right to go on air and admit they were wrong and that they need Danny and 3abn to forgive them.
then the court case can quietly be settled and the internet forums will go away.
The little issues with t e IRS can be handled in quiet manner as well the fines paid, or a letter from the IRS clearing 3abn of any wrong doing issued.
And we can all get on with the important work at hand which is saving souls.
OTHERWISE, be quiet and accept the fact that THERE is SIN IN THE CAMP AND IT IS GROSS SIN. and needs to be cleansed in a manner that is redeeming for all parties so that none are lost but all are neighbors in heaven.
In fact i can see the Banner headlines in the New Jerusalem Post " Mr Joy and Mr. thomason share a background agreeablely" OR "Mr. Pickle and Mr. shelton are best of neighbors."
See truth has this funny thing called evidence that goes along with it.
For example the bible says that god created the heavens and the earth., and there is tons of evidence to back it up.
Danny says Linda is a cheating harlot.(in so many words) no evidence to prooved on has to wonder if the story is true.
I could on and on about this but will not.
In closing wonder if the truth is so strongly in danny's favor why the 3abn lawyers seem to want to hid the truth so much?
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Bob, do you believe that there is no sin among the leadership of the Seventh-day Adventist church? Rather unlikely, don't you think? Where is the SaveTheSDAChurch website or discussion forum? Do you believe that in your investigation of 3abn you and Gailon are doing God's work? Are you sinless as you proceed? Are you obeying God completely? Are you requiring that everyone who helps you in this endeavor conducts themselves in total obedience to God?
GrandmaNettie,
Hey, easy now. You're not doing our friends at 3ABN by putting forth such a polemic. That's the old weak argument like: "Officer, why are you pulling me over for speeding when there are drug dealers and murderers out there walking the streets freely."
And BTW, there are already many websites out there exposing problems with the SDA church. Do we really need another one?
And, if I may take the side of Pickle/Joy for a moment: There are systems in place for dealing with problems within the SDA church. Elder Folkenberg was removed from his post by those vested with church authority after an investigation revealed certain indiscretions committed by Elder Folkenberg were unbecoming a president of the SDA church.
I must say, I have noted that the Pickle camp have requested a similar investigation be done in this matter, but apparently there are currently no mechanisms within 3ABN to deal with such matters at this time.
Perhaps there are lessons for all in this matter for the proper ways to deal with conflict resolution.
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Bob, do you believe that there is no sin among the leadership of the Seventh-day Adventist church? Rather unlikely, don't you think? Where is the SaveTheSDAChurch website or discussion forum? Do you believe that in your investigation of 3abn you and Gailon are doing God's work? Are you sinless as you proceed? Are you obeying God completely? Are you requiring that everyone who helps you in this endeavor conducts themselves in total obedience to God?
GrandmaNettie,
Hey, easy now. You're not doing our friends at 3ABN by putting forth such a polemic. That's the old weak argument like: "Officer, why are you pulling me over for speeding when there are drug dealers and murderers out there walking the streets freely."
And BTW, there are already many websites out there exposing problems with the SDA church. Do we really need another one?
And, if I may take the side of Pickle/Joy for a moment: There are systems in place for dealing with problems within the SDA church. Elder Folkenberg was removed from his post by those vested with church authority after an investigation revealed certain indiscretions committed by Elder Folkenberg were unbecoming a president of the SDA church.
I must say, I have noted that the Pickle camp have requested a similar investigation be done in this matter, but apparently there are currently no mechanisms within 3ABN to deal with such matters at this time.
Perhaps there are lessons for all in this matter for the proper ways to deal with conflict resolution.
Some interesting food for thought.....
I would, perhaps, not liken my weak, albeit polemic, argument to ""Officer, why are you pulling me over for speeding when there are drug dealers and murderers out there walking the streets freely." That would just be diversionary. More true to the intent of my post would be "Officer, do you hold yourself to the same standard as you are holding me and others to?"
Yes, I do believe there are lessons in this matter for the proper ways to deal with conflict resolution. In fact, that sounds like an excellent topic for further discussion.
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Posted on: Today at 09:01:52 PM; Posted by: GrandmaNettie
Yes, I do believe there are lessons in this matter for the proper ways to deal with conflict resolution. In fact, that sounds like an excellent topic for further discussion.
Are you changing the topic of the thread? Or are you opening a new one?
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Posted on: Today at 09:01:52 PM; Posted by: GrandmaNettie
Yes, I do believe there are lessons in this matter for the proper ways to deal with conflict resolution. In fact, that sounds like an excellent topic for further discussion.
Are you changing the topic of the thread? Or are you opening a new one?
Merely suggesting that it would make a good topic for a thread. I will give SDAminister the opportunity to start the OP if he wishes to.
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Auchwitz has larger and more spectacular tours than any tour 3ABN will ever concoct.
One Nazi rally drew bigger crowds than twenty years worth of 3ABN TC/Campmeetings.
The subsidiaries of Sony, Warner, and Death Row Records have sold more sound tracks in a day than 3ABN Sound Center will sell in a decade.
Record crowds, calls, sales, and hold times are no measure of right or good.
Remember what the members of Heaven's Gate, People's Temple, Colonia Dignidad, the Branch Davidians, the Mujahideen, and innumerable other cults and extremists have said when confronted? Sound familiar? It should. You are doing a great job of making 3ABN sound like just another of those cults. You sound just like them and thats sad and alarming.
Contemplate the truth of this matter, Sam. What would you have been in Germany, Chile, Waco, and many other places?
Where in the world did you get such an idea? You obviously haven't been there so must have gotten this faulty info second or third hand.
I said before I was able to attend the TC/campmeeting and there were record crowds. They give tours of the facilities and they are unbelievable. There is now a new kids time set which is already operational! The sound center recording studio has branched out to be able to offer soundtracks to the public. New programs are in the works! The ladies that take orders and answer questions at the call center say the phones are busy constantly. The thursday night lives are more popular than ever. I know, I called there with a question one thursday night and was on hold for 18 minutes!
Next time you take one of your walks, contemplate the truth of this matter instead of how you want it to be.
Habanero and Bob, My post had nothing whatsoever to do with record crowds or "numbers games" as you have stated. It was about the "Life" of 3abn which, to me, is defined as it's outreach, it's ministry, the growing and expansion..... My comments were in answer to SSOM's post and insinuation that poor 3abn was going down the drain never to be heard from again when in reality as I saw for myself, it is THRIVING! God is good.
Mr. Pickle,
be sure to pick this up and keep it for the record...further evidence that there has been no damages to 3ABN. This is good!!! Can we get Sam to testify to the Jury along with those 1000 souls...pretty critical testimony as one key element of a defamation claim is damages, and SAM asserts it is clearly just not there!!!
Why with an affidavitt from SAM, we could move to dismiss...or move a request for Summary Judgement...think we can get an affidavitt from SAM???
Keep up the good work SAM...you are such a help!!! Clarity is everything!!!
Gailon Arthur Joy