Advent Talk
Issues & Concerns Category => 3ABN => Topic started by: Artiste on January 30, 2008, 11:26:46 AM
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I've noticed on some of the forums wishes expressed that might be characterized as "Can't we all just get along?".
Some say they have had enough of prolonged conflict and that "both sides" are equally guilty of bad behavior.
Others are just weary of continual discussion of the issues and problems.
So are we all, on both sides, "God's chosen children" as some see it, in the future all standing together on the sea of glass?
Do Bob Pickle's and Gailon Joys's so-called tactics put them on the same moral plane as Danny Shelton, Tommy Shelton, and Walt Thompson with the multiple allegations against them?
Do we have a reason to keep discussing these issues?
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Sorry. I can't answer since I have a conflict of interest.
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What great questions you have posed, Artiste. Very thought provoking.
I guess what I am most tired of is not necessarily the 3ABN issues themselves (I don't mean to say the issues are not important) but the way folks have managed to personalize them and then prioritize them. Wrong is wrong, period. Who is to say that the abuse issues are more important than the wrongful termination issues or the financial issues or the divorce issues or whatever other issues there might be? Doesn't it say somewhere in the Bible that if we are guilty of breaking one commandment we are guilty of breaking them all?
What I have observed since starting to read these forums is the tendency of some to embrace their own particular pet issue to the point that it becomes its own monster - they live it, eat it, breathe it and sleep it until it becomes all consuming and nothing else matters. We are all children of God. Certain issues may affect me differently than they affect someone else - that doesn't mean the issues that concern me are more important than the others. Issues affecting Linda Shelton are different than those affecting FHB or Dr. Thompson. And those affecting the fired Trust Department employees are different than those of the Clem brothers. But they are all issues and they all matter.
I guess I'm rambling now and not making much sense. I'm just really sad.
Snoopy
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Do we have a reason to keep discussing these issues?
If we let it 'die a natural death', won't that be just what Danny and 3abn hope for?
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Artiste,
You ask do we have a reason to keep discussing these issues?
Well, I ask.... has anything been resolved? Has the clean up crew finished the work or even begun to do that which was and still is so sorely needed? Are people suggesting a bigger rug? I sense some feel a weariness with it all but that is exactly what a long law suit was intended to accomplish..... Wear down those who ask questions and stand for truth and righteousness.
I find it odd that those who say they were on one side quickly turned the other direction when they disagreed with defense tactics. When one side via a person attacks, it is necessary to defend and get to the bottom of issues or what lies behind the scene in order to build a defense...after all it is a law suit with a need to defend oneself.
It does seem that some are willing to carry a certain banner for truth and restitution while willing to wink at another issue and blame and judge motives of those who carry another banner.
I have been questioned if I posted for another as if I do not have a mind of my own and as if I am able to be manipulated. Are the ones we have trusted and confided in spoken truthfully or full of betrayal?
I still applaud Joy and Pickle even if they may have made mistakes for which one of us has not. After all they are DEFENDENTS. What do any of the rest of us have to lose in this battle? It is easy for those hiding behind false names to say "do this" or "do that".
I still believe this is a worthy cause.... to stand up and be counted on all of the issues. Let our prayers be for peace and an end to this madness but there must be repentance, restitution, and healing for all.
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Well, I ask.... has anything been resolved? Has the clean up crew finished the work or even begun to do that which was and still is so sorely needed? Are people suggesting a bigger rug?
Are people suggesting a bigger rug...
That's an interesting thought!
Do you think the ones wanting to keep things quiet go beyond Danny Shelton and 3ABN? How about ASI? And what about other organizations that want to see the 3ABN platform stay afloat regardless of what might need to be swept under the rug?
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Sorry. I can't answer since I have a conflict of interest.
This isn't the courtroom here! ???
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Are people suggesting a bigger rug...
That's an interesting thought!
Do you think the ones wanting to keep things quiet go beyond Danny Shelton and 3ABN? How about ASI? And what about other organizations that want to see the 3ABN platform stay afloat regardless of what might need to be swept under the rug?
They will need a bigger rug.
I am saddened but not discouraged to realize how wide the corruption or willingness to cover up things really is. I have a new perception of our church and those high up the ladder where they think "for the betterment we can ignore this or that". I guess that is why Jesus was hated so by the establishment in His day. He spoke out against it all.
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Do you think the ones wanting to keep things quiet go beyond Danny Shelton and 3ABN? How about ASI? And what about other organizations that want to see the 3ABN platform stay afloat regardless of what might need to be swept under the rug?
That is indeed an intersting thought. What other organisations do you think could benefit by sweeping this all under a rug?
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I don't know...what other organizations do you think of?
ASI has been mentioned from early on as having a contingency that was supporting 3ABN, and continued that support in spite of all the allegations coming up.
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The focus has been all this time on Danny Shelton and 3ABN--with the two considered to be almost synonymous.
But now with DS being sidelined, the perception might be that 3ABN is renewed and rejuvenated.
Without looking too closely into the matter, probably a lot of church members and leaders are hoping that things can get back to normal and that 3ABN will still be there.
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The focus has been all this time on Danny Shelton and 3ABN--with the two considered to be almost synonymous.
But now with DS being sidelined, the perception might be that 3ABN is renewed and rejuvenated.
Without looking too closely into the matter, probably a lot of church members and leaders are hoping that things can get back to normal and that 3ABN will still be there.
This is what I'm hearing from the trenches; that Danny has gone and it's under new management, so there's nothing to worry about any more.
So, are our leaders leading the stockholders in the pews, into thinking that all is well? If so, where do we need to go now? :scratch:
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This is what I'm hearing from the trenches; that Danny has gone and it's under new management, so there's nothing to worry about any more.
So, are our leaders leading the stockholders in the pews, into thinking that all is well? If so, where do we need to go now? :scratch:
That's exactly what I was thinking this last hour, Chrissie!
Where do we need to go now?
I considered speaking with conference/union officials that might be available locally and asking for a statement from them as to their status on the question of 3ABN problems being "swept under the rug".
But I do happen to know that most of them in this particular part of the country don't even have 3ABN on their radar...and don't really care...
So I'm still wondering what to do next!
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I still applaud Joy and Pickle even if they may have made mistakes for which one of us has not. After all they are DEFENDENTS. What do any of the rest of us have to lose in this battle? It is easy for those hiding behind false names to say "do this" or "do that".
I don't think they've made mistakes.
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I've noticed on some of the forums wishes expressed that might be characterized as "Can't we all just get along?".
Some say they have had enough of prolonged conflict and that "both sides" are equally guilty of bad behavior.
Others are just weary of continual discussion of the issues and problems.
So are we all, on both sides, "God's chosen children" as some see it, in the future all standing together on the sea of glass?
Do Bob Pickle's and Gailon Joys's so-called tactics put them on the same moral plane as Danny Shelton, Tommy Shelton, and Walt Thompson with the multiple allegations against them?
Do we have a reason to keep discussing these issues?
Your questions are exactly mine as well. I sensed that the atmosphere started changing on BSDA about the time when Nick Miller's letter was posted. I still have a hard time understanding why that made such a difference as to some people almost changing sides, but then I might be biased because I have been so deeply involved in this case right from the beginning?
Linda put it this way just the other day, Johann, you were one of the 4-5 people whom I could talk to when every one else closed their doors on me.
This situation might be difficult to understand if you have not experienced it. For several years Linda was increasingly in the limelight and people felt she was such a blessing to them by her proclaiming a faith that went straight to the heart. Just overnight this was completely changed. Not only did she have no more access to the media, but the whole staff of 120 people turned against her by the pronouncements of her husband and his intimate buddies ruling the 3ABN empire.
Some time after this happened Linda met a lady from the staff in a store. She seemed so surprised to discover that Linda still looked like a normal person because she was given the impression Linda had suddenly joined a strange heretical sect, and therefore it was dangerous to talk to her. Yes, the staff had been warned they'd be fired if they even talked to Linda. Even if they'd just happen to meet her in a shopping center. Only a few ventured to give her a subdued smile or a greeting.
Last night I got a glimpse of a TV discussion by historians, sociologists, veterans, politicians, etc. on the state of attitudes and world affairs. There was an agreement that people tend to forget the past. In the local area the youth are fairly well aware of the evils of Nazism, but they have very little knowledge of the dangers of communism. Why should they know of these dangers? To prevent the same curse from overwhelming the nation in the future.
What,then, is our task? How can it be accomplished?
Do we need a clear definition of Sheltonism and see how we may prevent it from penetrating the rank and file of Adventism that it may not make our message and proclamation without effect and create a rancor against the undiluted truth?
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This is what I'm hearing from the trenches; that Danny has gone and it's under new management, so there's nothing to worry about any more.
But is Danny really gone?
Has someone else taken over his office?
Has he moved off the 3ABN campus?
Does he no longer appear in telecasts?
Have all traces of him been removed from 3ABN, just as all traces of Linda have been removed?
Has the history of 3ABN been revised again, so that Jim Gilley really founded 3ABN?
Just wondering ...
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Your questions are exactly mine as well. I sensed that the atmosphere started changing on BSDA about the time when Nick Miller's letter was posted. I still have a hard time understanding why that made such a difference as to some people almost changing sides, but then I might be biased because I have been so deeply involved in this case right from the beginning?
Linda put it this way just the other day, Johann, you were one of the 4-5 people whom I could talk to when every one else closed their doors on me.
This situation might be difficult to understand if you have not experienced it. For several years Linda was increasingly in the limelight and people felt she was such a blessing to them by her proclaiming a faith that went straight to the heart. Just overnight this was completely changed. Not only did she have no more access to the media, but the whole staff of 120 people turned against her by the pronouncements of her husband and his intimate buddies ruling the 3ABN empire.
Some time after this happened Linda met a lady from the staff in a store. She seemed so surprised to discover that Linda still looked like a normal person because she was given the impression Linda had suddenly joined a strange heretical sect, and therefore it was dangerous to talk to her. Yes, the staff had been warned they'd be fired if they even talked to Linda. Even if they'd just happen to meet her in a shopping center. Only a few ventured to give her a subdued smile or a greeting.
Last night I got a glimpse of a TV discussion by historians, sociologists, veterans, politicians, etc. on the state of attitudes and world affairs. There was an agreement that people tend to forget the past. In the local area the youth are fairly well aware of the evils of Nazism, but they have very little knowledge of the dangers of communism. Why should they know of these dangers? To prevent the same curse from overwhelming the nation in the future.
What,then, is our task? How can it be accomplished?
Do we need a clear definition of Sheltonism and see how we may prevent it from penetrating the rank and file of Adventism that it may not make our message and proclamation without effect and create a rancor against the undiluted truth?
Johann, I sensed the same change that you did when the Nick Miller controversy started on BSDA.
How would you define Sheltonism?
I agree that the past should not be forgotten because that could endanger the future. However in the case of the 3ABN problem, I don't believe that it's in the past yet! I think it's continuing on at the present time.
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Johann, I sensed the same change that you did when the Nick Miller controversy started on BSDA.
How would you define Sheltonism?
I agree that the past should not be forgotten because that could endanger the future. However in the case of the 3ABN problem, I don't believe that it's in the past yet! I think it's continuing on at the present time.
Did that Nick Miller controversy start because some individuals live in fear and trembling of a lawyer?
Does anyone else have a better term than Sheltonism? Something that stands for Danny Shelton's brand of Adventism?
What can we do to get past the Shelton era?
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I still applaud Joy and Pickle even if they may have made mistakes for which one of us has not. After all they are DEFENDENTS. What do any of the rest of us have to lose in this battle? It is easy for those hiding behind false names to say "do this" or "do that".
I don't think they've made mistakes.
I am not saying they made mistakes....I was referring to people's perception of what they have done. It is so easy for those who have nothing to lose in this battle to disagree with the things that have been done.
I do not like the way the tide turns on these forums and people change sides forgetting the injustices so easily just because the battle is going on so long. It takes courage and faith to stay the course.
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I do not like the way the tide turns on these forums and people change sides forgetting the injustices so easily just because the battle is going on so long. It takes courage and faith to stay the course.
Amen!
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I still applaud Joy and Pickle even if they may have made mistakes for which one of us has not. After all they are DEFENDENTS. What do any of the rest of us have to lose in this battle? It is easy for those hiding behind false names to say "do this" or "do that".
I don't think they've made mistakes.
I am not saying they made mistakes....I was referring to people's perception of what they have done. It is so easy for those who have nothing to lose in this battle to disagree with the things that have been done.
I do not like the way the tide turns on these forums and people change sides forgetting the injustices so easily just because the battle is going on so long. It takes courage and faith to stay the course.
I think the tide can turn for a couple of reasons and I don't think that hard to understand. Whether or not it is on a smaller scale or something as far reaching as 3ABN.
A common enemy makes for strange bedfellows. And if they do not switch sides and do make the mistake of speaking out they are in danger of the same type of ridicule.
I think a public podium, one where you have the chance to be something you are not, have others in awe of the great christian you are,or on forums where you can pretend to be whatever you choose is addicting. You are either impressed with your own cleverness or love seeing your pretend words in public for others to go WOW. This is a place where you think your personal real life will remain hidden and you have the chance to pretend you are other than what you are. I think they lack an importance in their personal lives. Many seem to have the same problem and that is having even the most basic personal relationships as marriage.
Maybe because the spouse is the one to see you for what you are. Hard to pretend forever with someone you are living with.
What might have come of this if DS had treated it with a simple statement and moved on. If I have read things correctly it is when the desire to counter accusations and trashing that had not been made began.
When you defend and accuse over and over against something that is not even chasing you it should tell others a little something.
When I see people trash their ex-spouse,without them present to defend themselves, with out being a party of any conversation,my suspicions begin to tell me before I weigh in it would be best to know the other side of the story. For those to defend against what has not been said becomes suspect.
I have watched those that are so incensed that "gossip" is expressed when people state their feelings over the treatment by DS of LS, yet completly trash and make some pretty serious charges against their own ex in public.
No one will stop or call them on their own convoluted behavior. many are to afraid to incur the wrath. They know, no matter how they pretend otherwise, that their turn can be right around the corner by someone that does this.
Then those pesky little details. In their own pretend virtual world, statements that they probably can't even remember may come to light.
When you have not been upfront with who you are,you always live in fear of remembering who you were at any given time.
Bonnie
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They will need a bigger rug.
I am saddened but not discouraged to realize how wide the corruption or willingness to cover up things really is. I have a new perception of our church and those high up the ladder where they think "for the betterment we can ignore this or that". I guess that is why Jesus was hated so by the establishment in His day. He spoke out against it all.
The church, as in the administrative entity, has played the role of Pontius Pilot, while the stockholders in the pews are bewildered and confused...and do you blame the stockholders?
And the rug does get bigger the deeper we get into the investigation: ASI; ASI MIssions, Inc;
PPPA; Remnant Publications; McNeilus, et al; Even the issue of just how representative is the representative church organization when certain power brokers can claim steadfastly that the
decisions are already made before the constituency meets or the executive committees consider all the issues?
This is exactly the mentality and political structure that cost Linda Shelton her job and Career, her marriage and lifetime membership in 3ABN. This good old boy network is clearly alive and well at 3ABN as Gilley still refuses to look at te total evidence and trashes Linda at every turn.
Yes, Gilley is now confirmed to be "MORE OF THE SAME" and a part of the problem and not part of the solution.
I had hoped he would be a breathe of fresh air, but in fact is a simple retrace of history and clings to Danny "the lightening rod" Shelton like the true follower Gilley has become. It is a shame that they have not yet figured out the problem that plagues them and begun to take some effort to correct the clear error...they live in abject denial of the truth and continue to cling to this pathetic story concocted by Danny Lee Shelton.
Now they have begun to implement the "partnership" and daily lay the foundations to transcend the General Conference in their imaginary effort to take the gospel to all the world, with 3ABN
as the centerpiece. But, we are so easilly deluded as we buy our evangelism rather than do out evangelism. But, what does one expect from Laodicea anyway.
Gailon Arthur Joy
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They will need a bigger rug.
I am saddened but not discouraged to realize how wide the corruption or willingness to cover up things really is. I have a new perception of our church and those high up the ladder where they think "for the betterment we can ignore this or that". I guess that is why Jesus was hated so by the establishment in His day. He spoke out against it all.
The church, as in the administrative entity, has played the role of Pontius Pilot, while the stockholders in the pews are bewildered and confused...and do you blame the stockholders?
And the rug does get bigger the deeper we get into the investigation: ASI; ASI MIssions, Inc;
PPPA; Remnant Publications; McNeilus, et al; Even the issue of just how representative is the representative church organization when certain power brokers can claim steadfastly that the
decisions are already made before the constituency meets or the executive committees consider all the issues?
This is exactly the mentality and political structure that cost Linda Shelton her job and Career, her marriage and lifetime membership in 3ABN. This good old boy network is clearly alive and well at 3ABN as Gilley still refuses to look at te total evidence and trashes Linda at every turn.
Yes, Gilley is now confirmed to be "MORE OF THE SAME" and a part of the problem and not part of the solution.
I had hoped he would be a breathe of fresh air, but in fact is a simple retrace of history and clings to Danny "the lightening rod" Shelton like the true follower Gilley has become. It is a shame that they have not yet figured out the problem that plagues them and begun to take some effort to correct the clear error...they live in abject denial of the truth and continue to cling to this pathetic story concocted by Danny Lee Shelton.
Now they have begun to implement the "partnership" and daily lay the foundations to transcend the General Conference in their imaginary effort to take the gospel to all the world, with 3ABNas the centerpiece. But, we are so easilly deluded as we buy our evangelism rather than do out evangelism. But, what does one expect from Laodicea anyway.
Gailon Arthur Joy
Gailon, I remember when you were going to give Jim Gilley the benefit of the doubt, hoping that he would be one to bring responsibility and transparency to 3ABN.
Now that Jim Gilley has been determined to be a continuing part of the problem, even if his "Shelton true follower" act is designed to be a politically correct way to sideline DS, where does that leave us in relation to 3ABN?
As someone else has pointed out, the perception is that 3ABN is now on the right track with new administration and improved direction.
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I don't think they've made mistakes.
And fortunately, this fair board will allow me to kindly disagree with you as that is my opinion. I am curious though, have you inquired of Gailon if he has made any mistakes in his opinion?
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I don't think they've made mistakes.
And fortunately, this fair board will allow me to kindly disagree with you as that is my opinion. I am curious though, have you inquired of Gailon if he has made any mistakes in his opinion?
Why would I ask him that? Would it change my own opinion? Have you asked him that, since you brought it up?
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Some say the easiest way to avoid mistakes is to do nothing. Is that what all of us should be doing?
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Why would I ask him that? Would it change my own opinion? Have you asked him that, since you brought it up?
I do not know his answer but I can't imagine that after more than a year into this that he would make the claim that he has not made a mistake which you assert is your belief.
Some say the easiest way to avoid mistakes is to do nothing. Is that what all of us should be doing?
That was never the question Johann; why the misdirection?
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Why would I ask him that? Would it change my own opinion? Have you asked him that, since you brought it up?
I do not know his answer but I can't imagine that after more than a year into this that he would make the claim that he has not made a mistake which you assert is your belief.
Some say the easiest way to avoid mistakes is to do nothing. Is that what all of us should be doing?
That was never the question Johann; why the misdirection?
And the question was directed at you. What are you doing?
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What are you doing?
Good question. Thanks for the reminder.
All the best,
Ima
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I don't think they've made mistakes.
And fortunately, this fair board will allow me to kindly disagree with you as that is my opinion. I am curious though, have you inquired of Gailon if he has made any mistakes in his opinion?
We try our best to report the information as it is is given to us. Our perception is clearly always prejudiced by our personal opinions and, yes, my opinions are clearly sometimes not supported by the facts as they come from the various sources.
We have a number of sources and compare their information with statements from the "official spokespersons" at BSDA, with statements from the Chairman or DLS and of course the President. Good intelligence can be gleaned from a host of sources and must be compared with other source material and various leaks, discussed in the light of documentation and analyzed prior to the dissemination of the various stories.
Sometimes, sources can be impeccable, as in the story we released regarding the selection of Jerry Paige...but events and opposition to the trial balloon by reformers, or the parties themselves declining for wahtever purpose will result in a reversal of the planned event.
So Jerry gets to do 3ABN programming with Shelly Quinn, instead!!! Then sometimes, one must wait for events to actually unfold.
On the governance side, we have had very good sources on potential changes here, but there is stiff opposition to such a reform as some directors do not want to deal with a broader constituency. It could interfere in their personal agendas and so reform can take time or just simply never happen while the entitiy is moved in the direction of the gospel conglomerate approach. In the past there was this premise that independent ministries could be formed and the founders could be benevolent dictators, or dictators for Christ...in my absolute opinion an
incongruant dichotomy with Christian Leadership Principals.
The point is that we report what comes from sources and it could be positive or it could be negative, but a report it is never-the-less, as we see it at the time. Can we be wrong? Of course we can be wrong. When we are, we analyze why and determine if the sources were wrong or the analysis wrong.
As to giving Gilley the benefit of the doubt, we have done so, but the track record has not been good. Why would a president who is trying to bring reformation and clean up the biggest mess of his career, not listen to both sides before simply trashing Linda? Why would a credentialled minister, a pastor, former VP of the NAD and DDiv pretend he was a witness when he was not? Why would Gilley decline the opportunity to sit down with your biggest problem and see if there is any possible way that what they say is the truth and perhaps come to a meeting of the minds? And what point do you consider seriously, what can be done to avoid any more pain? Why would Gilley simply ignore a warning about an IRS Criminal Investigation and spurn the suggestion that he move quickly to dissipate the threat to the corporation that you are now the Chief Executive Officer to? Why would you allow Danny Lee Shelton to continue to have the stage when it is known that he is a "lightening rod" for antagonism and a major distraction to reform? Why would you step into and support a real estate deal that clearly is more of the same and an effort to insulate assetts of a perpetrator?
I could go on, but the benefit of the doubt has been given and we have doubts...do you???
The next most important step will be the selection of a new CFO and we will watch this carefully. Much will be told by this process and the person selected...then we will see the real direction of 3ABN and whether there is hope or despair. I would guess that the IRS will also be watching this process...much can be done in this selection to impact the direction of the IRS Criminal Investigation. Doesn't mean that some will avoid being held accountable, but the way they view the corporation will be seriously impacted by this most important selection.
That is the view from here!!!
Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter
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Isaiah 59:4 (New American Standard Bible)
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4No one sues righteously and no one pleads honestly
They trust in confusion and speak lies;
They conceive mischief and bring forth iniquity.