With great regret that I am constrained to share the following info with the Advent Talk forum.
This past weekend in Minnesota, Wintley Phipps held two concerts to support his organization the U.S. Dream Academy.
-He is a member of Three Angels Broadcasting Network Board of Directors
-He is an ordained Seventh-day Adventist minister of the Southeastern Conference of Seventh-day Adventists where he pastors the Palm Bay Seventh-day Adventist Church.
-He took a commercial flight to his destination on the Sabbath
-His concerts were at 7:00 pm Saturday and Sunday evenings.
-Admission to the concerts were by paid ticket only; sold in advance, and on the day of the concerts.
-Tickets were sold on the Sabbath by the local sponsor (a bank) and by the local center for the arts box office. Tickets also were for sale at the door, prior to the concert Saturday evening. Price: $12 adults, $6 students.
-A couple of phone calls indicate that members in the Minnesota Conference are concerned that this blatant breaking of the Sabbath, by a minister of their own denomination, will hurt their efforts to proclaim the three angels' message of which the sanctity of God's law is supreme.
-It is understood that this is not a one-time event as Elder Phipps regularly engages in this type of conduct.
-It is further unknown what effect this will have upon the work of 3ABN as Elder Phipps is perhaps one of the most public figures in all of Seventh-day Adventism.
Words do not fail me. Before this is taken as truth there are some questions to be asked. Did SDA minister witness these things himself or is it a rumor?Myself not wanting to be a victim of rumor, I verified all info before posting. I spoke by telephone directly with the president of the sponsoring bank, a representative of the center for the arts, and an individual from the venue where the concerts were held. I can supply those phone numbers to anyone who needs them.
Did SDA minister go to or contact Elder Phipps concerning this before he called the conference or writing about this on a public forum? In other words was this handled according to Matt. 18 principles?
Words do not fail me. Before this is taken as truth there are some questions to be asked. Did SDA minister witness these things himself or is it a rumor?Myself not wanting to be a victim of rumor, I verified all info before posting. I spoke by telephone directly with the president of the sponsoring bank, a representative of the center for the arts, and an individual from the venue where the concerts were held. I can supply those phone numbers to anyone who needs them.
You may also verify certain info here from their local newspaper. Note the last paragraph. http://www.fergusfallsjournal.com/news/2008/aug/07/phipps-add-ff-his-world/Did SDA minister go to or contact Elder Phipps concerning this before he called the conference or writing about this on a public forum? In other words was this handled according to Matt. 18 principles?
Public sins are dealt with publicly. But please read Matt 18. It deals with a trespass by one brother upon another. This did not happen. Elder Phipps did not trespass upon me. Instead, God's law was trespassed. We should be zealous to defend Him. As such, ALL biblical principles dealing with this situations like this have been adhered to.
In other words was this handled according to Matt. 18 principles?
Words do not fail me. Before this is taken as truth there are some questions to be asked. Did SDA minister witness these things himself or is it a rumor?Myself not wanting to be a victim of rumor, I verified all info before posting. I spoke by telephone directly with the president of the sponsoring bank, a representative of the center for the arts, and an individual from the venue where the concerts were held. I can supply those phone numbers to anyone who needs them.
You may also verify certain info here from their local newspaper. Note the last paragraph. http://www.fergusfallsjournal.com/news/2008/aug/07/phipps-add-ff-his-world/Did SDA minister go to or contact Elder Phipps concerning this before he called the conference or writing about this on a public forum? In other words was this handled according to Matt. 18 principles?
Public sins are dealt with publicly. But please read Matt 18. It deals with a trespass by one brother upon another. This did not happen. Elder Phipps did not trespass upon me. Instead, God's law was trespassed. We should be zealous to defend Him. As such, ALL biblical principles dealing with this situations like this have been adhered to.
Words do not fail me. Before this is taken as truth there are some questions to be asked. Did SDA minister witness these things himself or is it a rumor?Myself not wanting to be a victim of rumor, I verified all info before posting. I spoke by telephone directly with the president of the sponsoring bank, a representative of the center for the arts, and an individual from the venue where the concerts were held. I can supply those phone numbers to anyone who needs them.
You may also verify certain info here from their local newspaper. Note the last paragraph. http://www.fergusfallsjournal.com/news/2008/aug/07/phipps-add-ff-his-world/Did SDA minister go to or contact Elder Phipps concerning this before he called the conference or writing about this on a public forum? In other words was this handled according to Matt. 18 principles?
Public sins are dealt with publicly. But please read Matt 18. It deals with a trespass by one brother upon another. This did not happen. Elder Phipps did not trespass upon me. Instead, God's law was trespassed. We should be zealous to defend Him. As such, ALL biblical principles dealing with this situations like this have been adhered to.
Strange that this was held in Fergus Falls,MN. Might answer a few questions I had on this
But in reading the newspaper article it does not sound like Elder Phipps was in charge of the selling, where and when.
Wonder if you have ever travelled on the Sabbath when conceivably you could have waited or not travelled.
So, are you saying that Elder Phipps, the founder and president of US Dream Academy, had no input as to how and when the tickets were to be sold, the proceeds of which were to his organization's full benefit?
A couple of phone calls indicate that members in the Minnesota Conference are concerned that this blatant breaking of the Sabbath, by a minister of their own denomination, will hurt their efforts to proclaim the three angels' message of which the sanctity of God's law is supreme.
It is further unknown what effect this will have upon the work of 3ABN as Elder Phipps is perhaps one of the most public figures in all of Seventh-day Adventism.
Donna, people all around here got word that Phipps was going to perform, and how to buy tickets. Anyone who wants to can confirm the basic facts without going to Phipps.
In reading the article linked from the newspaper, am I the only one who noticed that no mention was made of Pastor Phipps having any affiliation with the Seventh-Day Adventist Church?
QuoteDonna, people all around here got word that Phipps was going to perform, and how to buy tickets. Anyone who wants to can confirm the basic facts without going to Phipps.
Then why wait till AFTER the program to wring hands over breaking of the sabbath. I would think that important enough that the conference office was called BEFORE with concern how it would will hurt their efforts to proclaim the three angels' message of which the sanctity of God's law is supreme.--It is further unknown what effect this will have upon the work of 3ABN as Elder Phipps is perhaps one of the most public figures in all of Seventh-day Adventism.
Not after the fact . Sorry, not buying your "regret to inform"
1. The concert did not benefit Phipps personally. It was a charity event.
5. This isn't a Theocracy and we don't stone people do we?
QuoteDonna, people all around here got word that Phipps was going to perform, and how to buy tickets. Anyone who wants to can confirm the basic facts without going to Phipps.
Then why wait till AFTER the program to wring hands over breaking of the sabbath. I would think that important enough that the conference office was called BEFORE with concern how it would will hurt their efforts to proclaim the three angels' message of which the sanctity of God's law is supreme.--It is further unknown what effect this will have upon the work of 3ABN as Elder Phipps is perhaps one of the most public figures in all of Seventh-day Adventism.
Not after the fact . Sorry, not buying your "regret to inform"
The blue above is Bob Pickle being quoted but you're quoting me in the bold type above. So, let me respond.
I became aware of this only on Friday. I immediately called both conference offices concerned (Minnesota and the Southeastern conference where Phipps lives and works) as well as Elder Phipps home church. All were closed for the week.
1. The concert did not benefit Phipps personally. It was a charity event.
2. Maybe he could have done it differently but this is covered by the first part of the 10 commandments-the ones between God and man not between one person and another. He wasn't being cruel to anyone. Was not oppressing them by forcing them to work on Sabbath. And I think God can take care of himself.
3. If Phipps thought it was wrong, he would probably sneaked around and tried to hide it. He didn't. I am concerned about those who do sneak around and try to hide things while wanting some others to think they do not do these things.
5. This isn't a Theocracy and we don't stone people do we?
6. If we want people to take our genuine concerns seriously, we have to be fair and reasonable not attributing the worst motives to others. We cannot read minds.
Next , sponsors sold tickets during Sabbath hours...
And are the sponsors Sabbath keepers? Do they even know or believe or have convictions about it? Was phipps in charge of ticketsellers or sponsors or when they opened and closed their business?
The "every little detail" you refer to was just my way putting this beyond rumor to support with facts. If I didn't give details, it would be harder to verify----no?QuoteThe blue above is Bob Pickle being quoted but you're quoting me in the bold type above. So, let me respond.
I became aware of this only on Friday. I immediately called both conference offices concerned (Minnesota and the Southeastern conference where Phipps lives and works) as well as Elder Phipps home church. All were closed for the week.
I am assuming you were not the only one with such a detailed schedule of this man. I am inclined to believe the timeline and where to purchase was known when it was advertised.
I also would think the conference office was aware. If not,then they should have been with so many concerned people. KNowing every little detail.
Whether he should have acted the way he did or not, I am a little cynical as to why all of this concern and "regret"
Obviously from what you say he has done this before, so why should a trip to MN be different?
Where this whole thing leaves me cold and it begins to look like "I gotcha" mentality was when you threw in the concern by MN conference.Quote
I never said "MN conference" I said, "members in the Minnesota conference".
SDAminister
Next , sponsors sold tickets during Sabbath hours...
And are the sponsors Sabbath keepers? Do they even know or believe or have convictions about it? Was phipps in charge of ticketsellers or sponsors or when they opened and closed their business?
.....thou,... nor thy manservant nor thy maidservant........
Merriam- Webster definition:
sponsor:
a person or an organization that pays for or plans and carries out a project or activity; especially : one that pays the cost of a radio or television program usually in return for advertising time during its course
But Jax, then would you be willing to explain why Elder Phipps had a benefit concert for US Dream Academy at Sligo SDA Church in Washington DC last month on a Saturday evening but charged no admission but rather accepted a freewill offering? http://www.usdreamacademy.org/usdreamevents.html And why couldn't he do the same here?
If it's okay to charge money to provide a product or service on the Sabbath then why don't we set up booths in the vestibules of our churches Sabbath morning and sell Wintley Phipps CD's and give the money to charity?
SDAminister
Where this whole thing leaves me cold and it begins to look like "I gotcha" mentality was when you threw in the concern by MN conference.Quote
I never said "MN conference" I said, "members in the Minnesota conference".
SDAminister
1. The concert did not benefit Phipps personally. It was a charity event.
2. Maybe he could have done it differently but this is covered by the first part of the 10 commandments-the ones between God and man not between one person and another. He wasn't being cruel to anyone. Was not oppressing them by forcing them to work on Sabbath. And I think God can take care of himself.
3. If Phipps thought it was wrong, he would probably sneaked around and tried to hide it. He didn't. I am concerned about those who do sneak around and try to hide things while wanting some others to think they do not do these things.
4. I know some people eat out on Sabbath. I don't and do not not feel this is right but I don't gossip about those who do. It is between them and God. Maybe I do things that other people do not do. I get my mail on sabbath and read it. When I was a teenager at home and the only SDA in my family I took the bus to and from meetings at the church on Friday night. It was the only way I could get there. I was a nursing assistant and I worked on Sabbath when I couldn't avoid it.
5. This isn't a Theocracy and we don't stone people do we?
6. If we want people to take our genuine concerns seriously, we have to be fair and reasonable not attributing the worst motives to others. We cannot read minds.
Where this whole thing leaves me cold and it begins to look like "I gotcha" mentality was when you threw in the concern by MN conference.
I never said "MN conference" I said, "members in the Minnesota conference".
SDAminister
Some may have missed your basic theme of BOD ethics as related to the Dacalogue. Some may have chosen to be a little more discriminating when you added Proper Appelations in the alleged honest facts. Keep your chin up so long as you understand that "avoidance of sin" is between God, your Creator, and you; whereas, the "avoidance of the appearance of evil is beween you and how your neighbor surmises which God and your Creator was alrady factually aware.
Most of my ethics came from free rulers in school with the Golden Rule imprinted coupled with a grandmother of my friends sticking her finger in each of our faces with the admonition that "be sure your sins will find you out!
Friends, people, whoever,
Give me a large time break! Wake up!
I am reminded of the time Jesus and his disciples came to town and were there on Sabbath, and after worship service no one, not a one invited them to Sabbath dinner as the rules of hospitality and of the time usually dictated, especially with a visiting Rabbi which jesus certainly was.
So Jesus and his disciples travelled on, and they were hungry, and no wonder! And so his disciples began to pick grain along the way and eat it. Bur because everyone else was minding their business and was having Sabbath dinner and fellowship, no one even saw them or cared???
NO!!!
Those crazy, hypocritical, unmerciful, faultfinding , inhospitable pharisees. They even spited themselves, they gave up their own family, friends and fellowship dinner to instead follow Jesus out of town. Those sneaks! waiting and lurking and looking to find either he or his disciples doing something, anything, wrong. And then they pounced and began to accuse and told Jesus "Your disciples are harvesting! that is forbidden on the Sabbath" " Sabbath breakers" "sinners!"
Think about it... Now how stupid and ridiculous was that?
And Jesus said something which was so alien to them, and remains so alien to so many, even today. He said "But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless."
Guiltless. Do you comprehend what that means? That word doesn't mean excused, it doesn't mean forgiven etc.. The context of that underlying Greek word is: without fault, without blame or reproach ---> without sin.
Phipps was traveling on the Sabbath??? so what!?! do you know why he was doing so, or what was going on beforehand making it necessary? I somehow doubt it.... or that it would even matter to some if there was cause.
Next , sponsors sold tickets during Sabbath hours...
And are the sponsors Sabbath keepers? Do they even know or believe or have convictions about it? Was phipps in charge of ticketsellers or sponsors or when they opened and closed their business?
Somehow I doubt it...
Imagine you are a farmer, You grow corn but are convicted about not working on the Sabbath, so you plow, plant, harvest and then sell it to a local Farmers market and even a cannery all while guarding your special time with the Lord and resting and delighting in him, and not working during the Lord's quality time with you.
Problem the Farmers market is open on Sabbath, So is the cannery, people working and being paid. Next the product is sold on the Sabbath, stockers stock it on the shelves, shoppers buy it, and Cashiers sell it. ALL on the Sabbath, wives, mothers and Chefs cook it on the Sabbath, others partake or buy it at their favorite restaurant...
Are you the sinner? Not hardly. You are in charge only of when you buy and sell...
Better question, are the others sinners? Do thy even know about or hold any kind of convictions about it?
God winks ar times of ignorance.. Do his people???
Paul once wrote:
1Cr 5:12- 13 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
But them that are without God judgeth.
Being both Just and Merciful... what a concept.
I thank God that Jesus has the final say.
Many of you people scare me.
Mat 9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
Jax
Where this whole thing leaves me cold and it begins to look like "I gotcha" mentality was when you threw in the concern by MN conference.
I never said "MN conference" I said, "members in the Minnesota conference".
SDAminister
Some may have missed your basic theme of BOD ethics as related to the Dacalogue. Some may have chosen to be a little more discriminating when you added Proper Appelations in the alleged honest facts. Keep your chin up so long as you understand that "avoidance of sin" is between God, your Creator, and you; whereas, the "avoidance of the appearance of evil is beween you and how your neighbor surmises which God and your Creator was alrady factually aware.
Most of my ethics came from free rulers in school with the Golden Rule imprinted coupled with a grandmother of my friends sticking her finger in each of our faces with the admonition that "be sure your sins will find you out!
Speaking for myself I hope I am "factually aware" and don't fall into the "factually challenged" group. I didn't miss "the BOD ethics as related to the Decalogue theme"
That would be very hard to do. It is a broken record theme on this forum. Many just grasping at straws and desparately trying to paint 3abn as guilty, this time by attacking Wintley Phipps.
No doubt it's the repetitive theme that has sdaminister sounding just like Pickle now also.
BTW I fixed your reply via guote box. Don't feel bad, many don't quite get it. For example, Daryl is always having to correct Joy's missives also..
Where this whole thing leaves me cold and it begins to look like "I gotcha" mentality was when you threw in the concern by MN conference.
I never said "MN conference" I said, "members in the Minnesota conference".
SDAminister
Some may have missed your basic theme of BOD ethics as related to the Dacalogue. Some may have chosen to be a little more discriminating when you added Proper Appelations in the alleged honest facts. Keep your chin up so long as you understand that "avoidance of sin" is between God, your Creator, and you; whereas, the "avoidance of the appearance of evil is beween you and how your neighbor surmises which God and your Creator was alrady factually aware.
Most of my ethics came from free rulers in school with the Golden Rule imprinted coupled with a grandmother of my friends sticking her finger in each of our faces with the admonition that "be sure your sins will find you out!
Speaking for myself I hope I am "factually aware" and don't fall into the "factually challenged" group. I didn't miss "the BOD ethics as related to the Decalogue theme"
That would be very hard to do. It is a broken record theme on this forum. Many just grasping at straws and desparately trying to paint 3abn as guilty, this time by attacking Wintley Phipps.
No doubt it's the repetitive theme that has sdaminister sounding just like Pickle now also.
BTW I fixed your reply via guote box. Don't feel bad, many don't quite get it. For example, Daryl is always having to correct Joy's missives also..
Once again giving proof that the quietest ones are often the smartest ones. Would you consider renting your intuition out by the hour? I need help picking some investments.
How does Wintley feel about Danny allegedly getting several hundred thousand dollars in royalties from the 2006 TCTR campaign, a campaign that helped put 3ABN $3 million in the red for that year?
Why hasn't the 3ABN Board reined Danny in on issues like that, a board of which Wintley is purportedly a member?
If I were making $130,000 from my own non-profit while also pastoring, I might have trouble getting on Danny's case.
How does Wintley feel about Danny allegedly getting several hundred thousand dollars in royalties from the 2006 TCTR campaign, a campaign that helped put 3ABN $3 million in the red for that year?
Why hasn't the 3ABN Board reined Danny in on issues like that, a board of which Wintley is purportedly a member?
If I were making $130,000 from my own non-profit while also pastoring, I might have trouble getting on Danny's case.
Do you expect to find an answer here on this forum or do you plan to merely speculate? Otherwise, what is your purpose in asking this question?
Is there a question here that is intended to lead to facts or just more speculation to reach your point?
And do you know how much Pastor Phipps accepts in denominational funds for pastoring a church?
But does he really pastor a church in the usual sense of the word if he is already putting in 40 hours a week in another job?
Would you have the same concern if this pastor did not have a affliation with 3ABN.
Are you now going after any and all that might in some way have their name attached to 3ABN??
Yep, sure sounds like this church is having real problems due to its Pastor not performing up to Bob's standards. Should we speculate on how other SDA churches would like to have this terrible problem of not enough room?
I would think I would ask some of the same questions.
Of course not. Yet in order to come up with ways to prevent such scandals from occurring again, there are legitimate questions that should be asked.
And there is a lawsuit going on, since 3ABN and Danny still have not served their demand to settle, and they are nearly a year past the deadline for that that they themselves set. Thus one has to explore various possibilities as to why there even is a scandal, in order to present a plausible theory to the jury.
It has been said that Danny handpicked his board members. The Nick Miller story definitely alleges that he gets rid of board members who don't do what he wants. So questions regarding board members I would think are definitely appropriate.
How does Wintley feel about Danny allegedly getting several hundred thousand dollars in royalties from the 2006 TCTR campaign, a campaign that helped put 3ABN $3 million in the red for that year?
Why hasn't the 3ABN Board reined Danny in on issues like that, a board of which Wintley is purportedly a member?
If I were making $130,000 from my own non-profit while also pastoring, I might have trouble getting on Danny's case.
Yep, sure sounds like this church is having real problems due to its Pastor not performing up to Bob's standards. Should we speculate on how other SDA churches would like to have this terrible problem of not enough room?
So were you going to find some answers to the basic questions, or are you trying to suggest that Job's friends were right that prosperity is absolute proof of God's favor?
Problem is that the Danny clones typically don't try to find answers to questions, so that makes things more difficult.
If I were making $130,000 from my own non-profit while also pastoring, I might have trouble getting on Danny's case.
..... a board of which Wintley is purportedly a member?
Problem is that the Danny clones typically don't try to find answers to questions, so that makes things more difficult.
I didn't think that was supposed to be mentioned here anymore.
Problem is that the Danny clones typically don't try to find answers to questions, so that makes things more difficult.
Over on 3ABN Talk they pretty well got you figured out.
Yep, sure sounds like this church is having real problems due to its Pastor not performing up to Bob's standards. Should we speculate on how other SDA churches would like to have this terrible problem of not enough room?
So were you going to find some answers to the basic questions, or are you trying to suggest that Job's friends were right that prosperity is absolute proof of God's favor?
He preached a sermon on this very issue in church a few months ago. It was very powerful. That man can preach! He also announced he would be doing this series. It aired on a local religious channel a few months ago and he said he knew it would be aired at later dates in other local markets.
From what I hear, he draws a salary from pastoring my home church but that he donates all of that salary because he said he does not need it. I know he works hard and travels a lot...and still is in church more often than not. Also, most church officers have his cell phone number and he knows what is going on in church. Some folks may take issue with him working these two positions,
.... are you trying to suggest that Job's friends were right that prosperity is absolute proof of God's favor?
Anyone remember this exchange?
Panama Pete:
Wintley Phipps is doing television work for Radio Bible Class, Grand Rapids, MI. He did a very nice job. I saw one of them one Sunday morning on the local TV station.
If you have Realplayer installed on your PC, you can listen to Wintley Phipps narrate a program he did for Day of Discovery / Radio Bible Class
Here's the audio/video link. Here's one that is still online.
Africa and the Bible: The River of Faith
http://www.rbc.org/radio_and_tv/day_of_discovery/49973.aspx
"Are all races created equal in the eyes of God? Down through the ages, certain people have viewed those with darker skin as somehow less human—using skin color as an excuse to enslave and marginalize people. Does God judge us by the color of our skin? Do people of color have any part in the heritage of Christianity, or should they be looking somewhere else for their faith? Join host Wintley Phipps as he follows the “rivers of faith” and uncovers the truth about Africa and the Bible."
Pete
Bob Pickle:
Haven't heard of that outfit before. Is it Adventist?
Have you asked him?
Amusing. If an organization is doing well you can invoke Job's friend's apocryphal theology. If an organization is doing poorly, having tragedy befall those associated, your compatriot can characterize it as God lifting His blessing.
And no one questions that you might have a problem (and BTW thanks for letting us know you might), but that does not mean that Pastor Phipps does or has and to suggest he does is your usual snide way does not make it so or prove anything.
Is he or isn’t he a member of the 3abn board? If he is, why use the term “purportedly”?
Is this a statement of fact or opinion?
And I guess you missed the “memo” that the use of the term “Danny Clones” is at the very least patronizing and your rationalization the last time this issue came up that you did not invent the term does not give you justification to continue using what is clearly meant to be a term implying that that who defend 3abn are unable to think and reason for themselves.
.... are you trying to suggest that Job's friends were right that prosperity is absolute proof of God's favor?
Oh, BTW, since I neither suggested, hinted or implied any such thing with my post you by your response are either suggesting it or putting words in my mouth i never said. Which is it?
Oh, BTW, as your statement does not make sense to me in this context, can you tell me what you think a growing church is an indication of (after all did you not mean to imply in your earlier post that Pastor Phipps may be shirking his responsibilities as a Pastor?)
Dear Friend Bob:
It pains me to say this, but your question about the Radio Bible Class 'outfit' shows your very narrow viewpoint regarding whether or not others could possibly have any biblical truth if they are not "Adventist".
Dear Friend Bob:
It pains me to say this, but your question about the Radio Bible Class 'outfit' shows your very narrow viewpoint regarding whether or not others could possibly have any biblical truth if they are not "Adventist".
Not sure where you got that idea. The quote from awhile back that got posted above merely asked the question whether they were Adventist or not. That's all.
I really appreciated John MacArthur, Jr.'s study on alcohol in the Bible. He's a Baptist. Another Baptist is Paul Washer who preached a sermon at a youth conference in Montgomery. I passed that one out in church the summer of 2006 after preaching a similar sermon.
Not sure where you got that idea. The quote from awhile back that got posted above merely asked the question whether they were Adventist or not. That's all.
I really appreciated John MacArthur, Jr.'s study on alcohol in the Bible. He's a Baptist. Another Baptist is Paul Washer who preached a sermon at a youth conference in Montgomery. I passed that one out in church the summer of 2006 after preaching a similar sermon.
So sorry if I misunderstood your statement. :oops: But your referencing of the longtime Radio Bibile Class as an 'outfit' and then asking if they were Adventist, sorta sounded as if you questioned their biblical legitimacy.
GrammieT :puppykisses:
Well, what else does one conclude when they appear to keep defending the cover up of child molestation allegations, divorce, the reporting of a donation of a horse or horses as cash in 2003, and the like?
And I guess you missed the “memo” that the use of the term “Danny Clones” is at the very least patronizing and your rationalization the last time this issue came up that you did not invent the term does not give you justification to continue using what is clearly meant to be a term implying that that who defend 3abn are unable to think and reason for themselves.
Well, what else does one conclude when they appear to keep defending the cover up of child molestation allegations, unbiblical divorce, the reporting of a donation of a horse or horses as cash in 2003, and the like?
QuoteWell, what else does one conclude when they appear to keep defending the cover up of child molestation allegations, unbiblical divorce, the reporting of a donation of a horse or horses as cash in 2003, and the like?
Bob,
What in the above has previously caused great concern within the SDA hierarchy?
Defending the cover up of child molestation allegations isn't even worth a yawn. This has been going on as far back as we existed as a denomination as in others. Not just 3ABN.
This is not sour grapes, all you have to do is read a few articles published by known SDA GC workers.
They admit it, they explain the poor reasoning behind it and piously say, "It must Stop" Stop it won't unless and if they get hit hard enough financially. Hard enough that the insurance doesn't cover.
It will not stop because it is the right thing to do. They have known the right thing for a very long time. Conference presidents cover up sexual immorality by pastors. So how will anyone get excited that it appears DS covered for his brother?
If he claims adultery, that is all he really has to do and the divorce is not a problem. Who would you expect to say we don't believe you DS and you do not have biblical grounds for divorse.
If he is not personally audited back to 2003, that is not an issue either.
Your banging your head into a cement wall.Even if you should win, you really won't win as it will be spun as 3ABN being under attack by Satan. If they win it will be spun as a victory, another miracle granted by God to DS.
I have told you before. We won, and we won big in terms of our chances to suceed. You want to know what we won in terms of this having a impact for change in this area. ZIP,ZERO,ZILTCH,NADA.
My son had a crack attorney, one of the best in this field, we had an admission of guilt, my son was responsible for changing the law in MN and I can tell you no impact was made on the majority of the people.
Only when the financial hit is hard enough will there be any substantive change in attitude and DS is even outside the clurches of the denomination or so people seem to think.
Well, what else does one conclude when they appear to keep defending the cover up of child molestation allegations, unbiblical divorce, the reporting of a donation of a horse or horses as cash in 2003, and the like?
I think I can conclude by your answer that you want to justify continuing to use the term despite the fact it has been pointed out to you more than once that it is not appreciated, not accurate and considered offensive (notwithstanding your POV as to its applicability).
Can you honestly say that you use the term respectfully? If not, the ongoing use of the term has no place on this forum IMO if respectful dialogue by both sides is really the goal of administration.
Notice that my statement had to do with the Danny clones defending these kind of things, not the church or its leadership defending such.
I do not recall hearing church leaders or pastors defending the things I listed.
And I guess you missed the “memo” that the use of the term “Danny Clones” is at the very least patronizing and your rationalization the last time this issue came up that you did not invent the term does not give you justification to continue using what is clearly meant to be a term implying that that who defend 3abn are unable to think and reason for themselves.
Well, what else does one conclude when they appear to keep defending the cover up of child molestation allegations, unbiblical divorce, the reporting of a donation of a horse or horses as cash in 2003, and the like?
I think I can conclude by your answer that you want to justify continuing to use the term despite the fact it has been pointed out to you more than once that it is not appreciated, not accurate and considered offensive (notwithstanding your POV as to its applicability).
Can you honestly say that you use the term respectfully? If not, the ongoing use of the term has no place on this forum IMO if respectful dialogue by both sides is really the goal of administration.
I am not going on the hunt tonight, but will see if I can relocate some of the articles, especially by James Cress.
He speaks of the church transferring those that have been accused of molesting a child or a vulnerable adult.
Blaming the ife or the victim and how this needs to change.
It is possible you might like to speak with him and ask him if he can send you a copy online
Bob, you and your compatriots have no business sticking your snouts into this private ministry and the lives of its leadership in the manner that you are doing. Your behavior is reducing the credibility of the denomination and its very message.
The organization that Wintley is raising money for could fall into the category of healing on the Sabbath day. IMO he is following the example of Jesus in working on the Sabbath to help people who are in need.
The organization that Wintley is raising money for could fall into the category of healing on the Sabbath day. IMO he is following the example of Jesus in working on the Sabbath to help people who are in need.
Exactly. And to represent Wintley Phipps and his ministry as SDAminister and Bob have done has the flavor of the legalistic dogma and traditions of the Pharisees at the time Jesus and His disciples walked this Earth.
The organization that Wintley is raising money for could fall into the category of healing on the Sabbath day. IMO he is following the example of Jesus in working on the Sabbath to help people who are in need.
Exactly. And to represent Wintley Phipps and his ministry as SDAminister and Bob have done has the flavor of the legalistic dogma and traditions of the Pharisees at the time Jesus and His disciples walked this Earth.
Bob, you and your compatriots have no business sticking your snouts into this private ministry and the lives of its leadership in the manner that you are doing. Your behavior is reducing the credibility of the denomination and its very message.
You're entitled to your opinion, but if you are correct, then you need to talk to Danny and tell him that he should never have authorized us to do that by filing suit against us.
Remember some of the history of this saga:
- John Lomacang invited people to contact him if they had questions.
- John Lomacang told me that I could see the phone records.
- Walt Thompson asked me to verify what he told me about the child molestation allegations against Tommy Shelton.
- The 3ABN Board voted to sue us in U.S. District Court, and invited us to defend ourselves against allegations.
And remember that I did not start this thread.
Bob, your and Gailon's "snouts", as Echo puts it, were in 3abn's business long before the BOD voted to file suit.
You and Gailon have no business attempting to set the standards for any of the private ministries.
Yes, when one finds allegations of serious problems it would be wrong not to deal with them. BUT, there are proper channels to take to deal with any of the problems that you might feel are present in any organization or with any person. Proper channels!
If you disapprove of how Wintley Phipps chose to participate with the fund raiser for the Dream Academy that's your prerogative. Taking it to the level you have in this thread, using your personal opinion about proper Sabbath observance to attempt to sully the reputation of Wintley Phipps is way out of line.
If you have concerns that Wintley Phipps is not properly perfoming the duties of a conference pastor, discuss that with his conference officials.
Not one of us has arrived at the truth yet. Truth is individual and progressive. If willing to be led, we will each be guided into that truth by the Holy Spirit, not by mortal man.
IMHO, those hoping for legal success pro-se in what I term as nothing more than just possible financial defamation should dot the "i and cross the t" on the real reasons for "any type of alleged defamation" if you can get past your individual as well as corporate possible inflated egos.
Quote..... a board of which Wintley is purportedly a member?
Is he or isn’t he a member of the 3abn board? If he is, why use the term “purportedly”?
Quote..... a board of which Wintley is purportedly a member?
Is he or isn’t he a member of the 3abn board? If he is, why use the term “purportedly”?
I can't answer for Bob Pickle, but Elder Phipps himself claims to be a member of the 3ABN Board of Directors. http://www.usdreamacademy.org/usdreamwintleyphipps.html
SDAminister
Who initiated the method of wading-up the individual donations for transmission tagged to an independent ministry in a local church? Was it ordered both up and down from upstream in the organized church? I don't think I would vote for a director or officer of especially an independent ministry where character or reputation was a major component in the business model for reliable and uninterupted support. I wouldn't even be an employee with the expectations of retirement with this flimsy type of financial arrangements.
And how are damages computed for the negligent who fail to properly devise a stable going-concern non-profit organization where character\reputation is very important? Is this an indication of lack of educational qualifications?
How much diligence could you expect a non-paid BOD to exercise in re integrity of character of management of a hybrid alleged church-related non-profit corporation when that character becomes challenged by the major part of its financial support framed by a support organization capable of maneuvering support at the will of that organizations constituency and not able to be effectively controlled by the independent organization. The matter is even further compounded when some of non-paid BOD are also construed to be character challenged.
Who initiated the method of wading-up the individual donations for transmission tagged to an independent ministry in a local church? Was it ordered both up and down from upstream in the organized church? I don't think I would vote for a director or officer of especially an independent ministry where character or reputation was a major component in the business model for reliable and uninterupted support. I wouldn't even be an employee with the expectations of retirement with this flimsy type of financial arrangements.
And how are damages computed for the negligent who fail to properly devise a stable going-concern non-profit organization where character\reputation is very important? Is this an indication of lack of educational qualifications?
Bro Inspro:
What does the bolded comment mean? :scratch: Or did you mean to say 'wadding-up? 'Wading' as in walking in the edge of the lake? Or 'wadding' as in rolling into a ball, so to speak? Don't mean to be nitpicking here but there is a significant difference in the meaning of the words and I wish to know which you meant. It seems that one applies where the other one doesn't so much, if at all.
GrammieT :beagle:
P.S. to everyone. :puppykisses: It would be so helpful if we all would take an extra minute to proofread our posts to better get our messages across in the manner in which we wish them to be understood. D'ya think we could do that? :rabbit: It seems that we would want our readers to fully understand what we are trying to say; and to use a proper comma once in a while to set off a phrase or right spelling/usage of words in our sentences would go a long way to accomplishing that goal.
Doggone it, where did I put that list of common spelling/meaning goofs I put together a couple of years ago? :dunno: :ROFL:
Okay, I'll shut up for now. :hot: :help: :dogwag:
All potentially low of wit can test the software package of this site in re spelling on the following words, wading-up and wadding-up which I initially used; however, the package didn't seem to care for either so I just kept sailing whether any saw me technically correct or not!
I don't generally respond to foolish posts with the sole intent of exposing their ire!
I generally guaged honesty on your type conduct where I had more power than even the President without question!
QuoteAll potentially low of wit can test the software package of this site in re spelling on the following words, wading-up and wadding-up which I initially used; however, the package didn't seem to care for either so I just kept sailing whether any saw me technically correct or not!
I don't generally respond to foolish posts with the sole intent of exposing their ire!
I generally guaged honesty on your type conduct where I had more power than even the President without question!
Stealing my SCHTICK again I see. :dunno:
QuoteAll potentially low of wit can test the software package of this site in re spelling on the following words, wading-up and wadding-up which I initially used; however, the package didn't seem to care for either so I just kept sailing whether any saw me technically correct or not!
I don't generally respond to foolish posts with the sole intent of exposing their ire!
I generally guaged honesty on your type conduct where I had more power than even the President without question!
Stealing my SCHTICK again I see. :dunno:
QuoteAll potentially low of wit can test the software package of this site in re spelling on the following words, wading-up and wadding-up which I initially used; however, the package didn't seem to care for either so I just kept sailing whether any saw me technically correct or not!
I don't generally respond to foolish posts with the sole intent of exposing their ire!
I generally guaged honesty on your type conduct where I had more power than even the President without question!
Grammie T dismiss my crudeness, now and forevermore!
Stealing my SCHTICK again I see. :dunno:
So sorry if I offended anyone with my post. :'( I only meant that it seems that a lot of folks tend to click the post button before they take time to preview their message for understanding and continuity.
And I tried to soften my criticism with the use of these neat emoticons. ;) :purr:
Now I remember where I put that list -- in the basket labeled ":caution: They won't want this info anyway!" :dunno: :ROFL:
GrammieT :dogwag:
Refiling list :horse: for future sharing with those who just might appreciate it? :ROFL: :ROFL:
QuoteAll potentially low of wit can test the software package of this site in re spelling on the following words, wading-up and wadding-up which I initially used; however, the package didn't seem to care for either so I just kept sailing whether any saw me technically correct or not!
I don't generally respond to foolish posts with the sole intent of exposing their ire!
I generally guaged honesty on your type conduct where I had more power than even the President without question!
Grammie T dismiss my crudeness, now and forevermore!
Stealing my SCHTICK again I see. :dunno:
So sorry if I offended anyone with my post. :'( I only meant that it seems that a lot of folks tend to click the post button before they take time to preview their message for understanding and continuity.
And I tried to soften my criticism with the use of these neat emoticons. ;) :purr:
Now I remember where I put that list -- in the basket labeled ":caution: They won't want this info anyway!" :dunno: :ROFL:
GrammieT :dogwag:
Refiling list :horse: for future sharing with those who just might appreciate it? :ROFL: :ROFL:
Dear CPAATTY:
Thank you for your quite gentlemanly apology, kind sir. :pals:
GrammieT :purr:
P.S. You need to learn how use the quote system on this board, but don't be offended by my comment. . . It took me a lo-o-o-ng time to learn it myself, much thanks to Snoopy. :help: :hot: :ROFL:
If you left click on the icon with the yellow page in the second line of the Message Icons on the Reply Page, you will get a response which shows the cursor in between the beginning quote mark and the ending quote mark which is where you can then place your quoted material.
(Snoopy, now I know why you didn't try to be more precise in your explanations the other day. :hot:) It's almost impossible :horse: -- and I still don't really know how to get quotes from two different posts into the same message. However, I have come to the conclusion that if you highlight and copy the item you wish to quote into right click menu and then left click on the quote icon you then have the space to paste your desired quote. Right? :rabbit: :hot: I think I'm done here for the day! ;)
Bob, your and Gailon's "snouts", as Echo puts it, were in 3abn's business long before the BOD voted to file suit. I have seen the vitriolic emails from Gailon to Danny Shelton and anyone else who has dared to cross the AUReporter, including myself. As I have followed this for almost 2 years now, I have grown to see that this is really not so much about cleansing the sin in 3abn's camp, but is simply a vehicle for Gailon's Crusade Du Jour; just how he enjoys spending his time. Learning about the Hartland saga jelled that for me Somehow, you decided to join him for this one.
You and Gailon have no business attempting to set the standards for any of the private ministries. Yes, when one finds allegations of serious problems it would be wrong not to deal with them. BUT, there are proper channels to take to deal with any of the problems that you might feel are present in any organization or with any person. Proper channels!
How much diligence could you expect a non-paid BOD to exercise in re integrity of character of management of a hybrid alleged church-related non-profit corporation when that character becomes challenged by the major part of its financial support framed by a support organization capable of maneuvering support at the will of that organizations constituency and not able to be effectively controlled by the independent organization. The matter is even further compounded when some of non-paid BOD are also construed to be character challenged.
Excellent point. The possibility exists that Danny snookered Wintley.
Just remember that you need an opening and closing quote tag for each quote.[/b] where you want the quote to stop. Then copy the opening quote tag with opening and closing brackets and paste that right after the [/quote]. Then put your comments in between the [/quote] and the new opening quote tag.
Now if you want top break up another post and quote it several times with comments in between, just type in
Great to see your friend in Ohio has given you the backbone to come out of the closet. Remember Mahta Hari???
Requesting permission to treat Grandma as an ADVERSARIAL WITNESS???
And the truth comes out. Thank-you Grandma Nettie for finally making your agenda clear. YOU HAVE FINALLY TURNED and clarified that YOU NEVER HAVE BEEN LOOKING FOR THE TRUTH, have you, Grandma??? In fact, you will support your prejudice, true, false or grey, won't you Garnadma???
YOU ARE TURNED, and YOU ARE AND HAVE BEEN FARSICAL. FIGURED IT OUT REAL EARLY and wondered how long it would take for you to REVEAL THE TRUTH. I pegged you early and it is with pleasure that we FINALLY see your real character.
THANK-you, THANK-you, THANK-you. Here we have PRIMA FACIE proof...
your failure to see the truth is blinded by your own PREJUDICES!!! You have never searched for the truth...and what does that make you???? Farsical is definitely far too kind a word.
For the record, we do not set the standards for independent ministries. But I do report the failure of independent ministries to follow the standards. And I do not care whether it is a Hospital, a College, a Media Ministry or a Pastor. Void the standard and it is reportable, a concept you and your friends fail to recognize. particularly when you ask me or anyone else in the american public for dought to operate on!!! AND THAT OPTION IS STILL PRESERVED IN THE US CONSTITUTION just as your right to oppose it is also guaranteed.
And remember, if you can't handle the "vitriole" you can change the channel. But the truth is still the truth, whether you accept it, reject it or perpetually search for an alternative truth.
I return you to the vipers that you worship!!! Thanks for proving it!!!
Gailon Arthur Joy
I don't think so. Put yourself in Wintley Phipps seat. He lives in a glass house and most likely feels that people that will reveal Danny, if not stopped would reveal him. That is how a seventh-day adventist conference credentialled pastor could justify filing suit against anyone who would call them to a higher plain. I am guessing they are quite comfortable on the plain they are on.
Speaking of glass Houses, anyone seen Phipps little estate? A modest 1.3 Million dollar tax valuation home in Florida. Wonder how that compares to Linda's Mansion?
http://www.ircpa.org/RecordCard.aspx?ParcelID=32401800057000000001.0
Gailon Arthur Joy
Just remember that you need an opening and closing quote tag for each quote.
Now if you want top break up another post and quote it several times with comments in between, just type in [ /quote] where you want the quote to stop. Then copy the opening quote tag with opening and closing brackets and paste that right after the [/quote ]. Then put your comments in between the [/ quote] and the new opening quote tag.
Friend Bob: :puppykisses:
How you do dat?? I tried to use the open and close quotes as regular text and it just acted like I was trying to quote something and didn't show up like your (bolded above) examples.:dunno: How DID you do that? :hot: :help:
Oh well, I guess we'd better get back to the regular thread info, huh? :oops:
GrammieT :dogwag:
Just remember that you need an opening and closing quote tag for each quote.
Now if you want top break up another post and quote it several times with comments in between, just type in [ /quote] where you want the quote to stop. Then copy the opening quote tag with opening and closing brackets and paste that right after the [/quote ]. Then put your comments in between the [/ quote] and the new opening quote tag.
Friend Bob: :puppykisses:
How you do dat?? I tried to use the open and close quotes as regular text and it just acted like I was trying to quote something and didn't show up like your (bolded above) examples.:dunno: How DID you do that? :hot: :help:
Oh well, I guess we'd better get back to the regular thread info, huh? :oops:
GrammieT :dogwag:
It's rather simple: The quote tags work in pairs. If you have one that isn't paired, it will show up. All I had in my posts were end tags, no start tags.
Now since you quoted me, you put in a start tag, and when I quoted you quoting me, that put in a second start tag. So to make the end tags show up broke them by inserting a space where a space doesn't belong. And that's how I ended up with one more end tag showing than what you have, since one of the end tags paired up with the start tag you inserted.
QuoteI don't think so. Put yourself in Winterly Phipps seat. He lives in a glass house and most likely feels that people that will reveal Danny, if not stopped would reveal him. That is how a seventh-day adventist conference credentialled pastor could justify filing suit against anyone who would call them to a higher plain. I am guessing they are quite comfortable on the plain they are on.
Speaking of glass Houses, anyone seen Phipps little estate? A modest 1.3 Million dollar tax valuation home in Florida. Wonder how that compares to Linda's Mansion?
http://www.CPA.org/RecordCard.aspx?ParcelID=32401800057000000001.0
Gailon Arthur Joy
I have read more than once that you were looking forward to a lawsuit and pretty much challenged 3ABN to sue you. If that is true you have no business pretending to be disturbed that you are sued by a SDA.Asking for it, you received it seems.
What bloody business is it of yours what this man's house is worth if it is within his stated income. The only time it should concern you is if there was the living beyond the means without being able to prove how house was paid for.
Don't like it, don't donate. I don't and wouldn't to a man that lives that lifestyle while soliciting funds from me. If that is known or could easily be found to be true and someone wants that amount of money coming first before the intended recipients,go for it.
I would definitely have a problem with it, but most don't seem to.
You are not doing yourself or your cause any good,the reverse is true. Many are turning from it in disgust, and not just disgust towads DS
Bonnie, the house being talked about is worth 1.2 not l.3 million and it is a one family, 3 bedroom on 0.44 acres. If the home were located in another state or area it would probably be much less. When I first bought my home it was for 49.5 thousand and was told the same home in a nearby city would be 125 thousand. This is all much ado about nothing.
You are rude, condescending, arrogant, pompous, nasty
Bonnie, the house being talked about is worth 1.2 not l.3 million and it is a one family, 3 bedroom on 0.44 acres. If the home were located in another state or area it would probably be much less. When I first bought my home it was for 49.5 thousand and was told the same home in a nearby city would be 125 thousand. This is all much ado about nothing.
Donna, the link says the house has a CAMA value of $1,357,350.
Was your house 5260 sq. ft.?
Bonnie, the house being talked about is worth 1.2 not l.3 million and it is a one family, 3 bedroom on 0.44 acres. If the home were located in another state or area it would probably be much less. When I first bought my home it was for 49.5 thousand and was told the same home in a nearby city would be 125 thousand. This is all much ado about nothing.
Donna, the link says the house has a CAMA value of $1,357,350.
Was your house 5260 sq. ft.?
I do not understand why all this attention to Elder Phipps house. We should be thankful that he has been blessed with a home that meets the needs of his social position. I am not jealous of him but glad for him. While my home has more than ample room, according to today's standards, I could not begin to entertain the amount of people he probably has to.
We probably all understand that the tax assessments on our homes nearly always are higher than what we could probably get out of them. To have looked at this fairly I would think you would have gone by the actual sale price rather than the tax assessment.
I don't recall who asked about Linda Shelton's house in comparison to Elder Phipps, but I did find out that her very nice house is a 200,000, two story with a pool. Since DS allowed her most of their home furnishings I do not think she is in need.
I do not understand why all this attention to Elder Phipps house. We should be thankful that he has been blessed with a home that meets the needs of his social position. I am not jealous of him but glad for him. While my home has more than ample room, according to today's standards, I could not begin to entertain the amount of people he probably has to.
onestly, I think part of Gailon's problem is that he has had to communicate with lawyers for too many years. If you don't watch it, it can affect you.
Please allow me to lay a predicate to what I see as mass confusion that can present itself when I fail to "read" and "correctly understand" instructions as outlined in The Ten Commandments, The Law of God, The Decalogue, and message board rules. I'll only delve into the "message board rules" in this post with a 'cut and paste" from one of Snoopy's messages which includes certain quotes and above shown characters which did not paste-forward.
I first feebly attempted to register with AdventTalk, probably under CPAATTY I think; however, I never received an e-mail subsequent to the initial as I was informed in the registration process. I dismissed that attempted procedure completely. I forced the issue on my present ID, irspro, and was successful after a few days even though I never received the second e-mail on that registration process.
The "CPAATTY" screen name advised "irspro" of an identity issue which you may research with no subsequent message of which I am aware. I'm bewildered with message-board procedure moreso on AdventTalk than others, even from those I think who think they correctly know. I, at least, correctly know the rule against dual-registrations!
NOTE SPECIFICALLY: I, irspro, was the correct adentity that made the apology to Grammie T quoted in error in the following:
" LOL...GrammieT, I have to thank you for teaching me! I did not know about that little "quote" icon until you pointed it out!! So...
Quote from: GrammieT on Yesterday at 12:43:43 PM
Dear CPAATTY:
Thank you for your quite gentlemanly apology, kind sir.
GrammieT
P.S. You need to learn how use the quote system on this board, but don't be offended by my comment. . . It took me a lo-o-o-ng time to learn it myself, much thanks to Snoopy."
Bonnie, the house being talked about is worth 1.2 not l.3 million and it is a one family, 3 bedroom on 0.44 acres. If the home were located in another state or area it would probably be much less. When I first bought my home it was for 49.5 thousand and was told the same home in a nearby city would be 125 thousand. This is all much ado about nothing.
Donna, the link says the house has a CAMA value of $1,357,350.
Was your house 5260 sq. ft.?
I do not understand why all this attention to Elder Phipps house.
We should be thankful that he has been blessed with a home that meets the needs of his social position.
We probably all understand that the tax assessments on our homes nearly always are higher than what we could probably get out of them.
I don't recall who asked about Linda Shelton's house in comparison to Elder Phipps, but I did find out that her very nice house is a 200,000, two story with a pool. Since DS allowed her most of their home furnishings I do not think she is in need.
What you demand of DS and 3ABN, you best be willing to give, ....
What you demand of DS and 3ABN, you best be willing to give, ....
Let's back up a little. I have said that it was wrong for Shelley Quinn and company to trash Alyssa Moore's statement about Danny's alleged sexual assault in global TV while claiming to not be defending themselves. I have definitely made statements like that.
Perhaps there have been times when I have addressed the Danny defenders' language and tone, but I don't recall.
I have stated that certain apologies should be made, and I have demonstrated that I am willing to do that myself.
Worshiping vipers? Yes, I think Gailon should not have said that.
Let's back up a little. I have said that it was wrong for Shelley Quinn and company to trash Alyssa Moore's statement about Danny's alleged sexual assault in global TV while claiming to not be defending themselves. I have definitely made statements like that.
Perhaps there have been times when I have addressed the Danny defenders' language and tone, but I don't recall.
I have stated that certain apologies should be made, and I have demonstrated that I am willing to do that myself.
Worshiping vipers? Yes, I think Gailon should not have said that.
I can go you one better. Gailon was wrong, there is no thinking or two ways about it.
I do have disdain for those who pretend to look for truth and hobnob with those who support Linda but then secretly work at cross purposes.
I am surprised you did not take exception to Mahta Hari. That implication is clearer and more precise. One who works both sides to their advantage and purposes?
I have never asked anyone to appreciate or agree with my style of tackling issues and I have never complained that anyone filed suit against me. It is true that following the collapse of the ecclesiastical tribunal with ASI that I realized the only option was litigation. Our requests to meet with the board and explain our evidence and concerns has also been spurned. What other option was available as the battle ratcheted up and we met the bully pulpit of the Thursday 3ABNToday Live with a website? It was clear they would try to shut us down. Litigation was the only option...simple analysis. And I did indeed begin preparation to meet the threat head on.
It is also true that I do not fear or avoid litigation...if their is a battle to be fought, then I will fight it. I have made it clear that war has it's casualties. This is a war, a long protracted war that just happens to cross the paths of peace loving and submissive Sevenths Adventists. I have never fit the mold and while born and bred an SDA I also was inculcated with the premise that if you meet Goliath, in or out of the church, challenge him.
It is regretable that you find it so objectionable and I have long recognized that Sada's do not appreciate direct conflict and straight talk, clearly you included.
As to the banning of SAM, well I find it a great opportunity to ask questions of a person clearly very close to the seat of power...it is always great to see what the answers will be. A Good intelligence source lost, in my opinion. And frankly, your response was uncalled for. How is that for arrogance!!!
Rest assured, I am indiscriminating. If I do not agree with your view I let you know...I believe that is still constitutional.
On the other hand, I come from a background that allows vigorous debate and then shake hands, eat lunch together go away friends, something that SDA's find impossible.
QuoteSo, are you saying that Elder Phipps, the founder and president of US Dream Academy, had no input as to how and when the tickets were to be sold, the proceeds of which were to his organization's full benefit?
No, that is not what I said. Had this been brought to his attention beforehand or even after this was planned,I am sure he could have had input. The fact he didn't would tell me he probably was not concerned about the time frame and selling tickest. Or, it could have been a simple oversight in planning.
I have my doubts as to SDA Minister, being a minister of the SDA church. I seriously doubt any SDA minister would have dragged out such a detailed agenda of another pastor.
I don't suppose you'd be interested to know how many times over the past few years such "oversights in planning" have occurred?
SDAminister
Of course it's because of 3ABN. If Elder Gilley started charging admission to hear his Sabbath sermons, wouldn't that hurt the work of 3ABN? Why is it any different with Elder Phipps? Or, do you agree that what Phipps did was wrong but you just believe that I handled it in the wrong way?QuoteI don't suppose you'd be interested to know how many times over the past few years such "oversights in planning" have occurred?I don't know how many times there has been an error in planning. Further more I really don't care. I believe this is because of the 3ABN and a tie to this pastor.
SDAminister
I don't suppose you'd be interested to know how many times over the past few years such "oversights in planning" have occurred?
SDAminister
Of course it's because of 3ABN. If Elder Gilley started charging admission to hear his Sabbath sermons, wouldn't that hurt the work of 3ABN? Why is it any different with Elder Phipps? Or, do you agree that what Phipps did was wrong but you just believe that I handled it in the wrong way?
Of course it's because of 3ABN. If Elder Gilley started charging admission to hear his Sabbath sermons, wouldn't that hurt the work of 3ABN? Why is it any different with Elder Phipps? Or, do you agree that what Phipps did was wrong but you just believe that I handled it in the wrong way?QuoteI don't suppose you'd be interested to know how many times over the past few years such "oversights in planning" have occurred?I don't know how many times there has been an error in planning. Further more I really don't care. I believe this is because of the 3ABN and a tie to this pastor.
SDAminister
Query your specificity as to timing and manner. It doesn't appear you are being challenged on the subject when some merely attempt to grab the steering wheel and blame the problem on others or change the direction of the discussion to more about "steering over by Sally's house" as I have oft heard. It has been observed that blaming other for my errors is probably the most effective in "salving my conscience" next to "steering to less important conversation where interested participants may need to find a bit of introspection on their possible similar conduct.
My professional employment and practice worked best when I was able to determine the most facts in a minimum of yet reasonable amount of time before mental capacity was affected by frustration. This same success was accomplished in both of my examinations to gain professional status. Keep in mind that frustrations can be caused by over planning rather than proper planning. I have found that specific allegations need to be directly connected to the most direct valid proof available rather than piecemeal where an audience is likely to be diluted.
SDAminister, you appeared to lose support with being too specific with "appellations" and "travel schedule arrivals" before the "church member" comments you determined of "preaching schedules were associated with travel departures." I find your final product or overall observations fairly reliable as I used many times in a tax audit where the taxpayer was so chagrined they stated they needed no further professional assistance in my determination of the additional tax due.It really doesn't matter how reliable SDAdministers information on travel and preaching schedules were concerned
A practical example is presented to prove that it is better to let "actions" prove "alleged facts." The President and sole shareholder of an asphalt paving corporation seemed proup to inform me that the general business model was to to have depend heavily on subcontractors for an eleven month window while using the last two weeks of December and first two weeks of January for vacations and machine maintenance. The President had no problem disclosing that he took an tour during this four-week window. All this information was disclosed in the first 15 minutes of our conversation while I mostly listened with an occasional query.
This could easily be one of my last messages as none appeared to be interested in domestic relations, divorce, spiritual adultery, etc under this subject.
Didn't expect any more from a self-justification type that mostly will tell you more and more about less and less and to the extent you know everything about nothing!
Kinda reminds me of the off-shoot preacher adept at shooting-off that floated through the community and accused of child rape through hypnotism who responded to a fellow preacher that he was "not convicted" rather than a simple "yes or no!
The same preacher had formerly entered my home, somewhat uninvited, in one door and politely invited to exit through a different door. The preacher declined my invitation to exit the nearest door and instead displayed in such an inordinate manner that he would only exit through the door he entered. The preacher is now in an alleged disabled mental state west of the Mississippi River. I hereby present a query of "superstitious conduct!
Beware of independent ministries alleging new light and heightened morals supported by low education\wit!
Jumping to conclusions with moronic messages is esentially equivalent to "ass u me!"
QuoteI don't suppose you'd be interested to know how many times over the past few years such "oversights in planning" have occurred?
SDAminister
As I said, I don't really care, but I am sure there is a tally somewhere that keeps score
Twice you've said that you don't care. And nearly every other post in this topic is by you. Are you sure you don't care? Nothing wrong with that mind you. :)
SDAminister
Don't assume anything when you put out for public display any message, short of truth. This warning is heightened when using proper names or specific references. Even the truth may not save you from the filing of an action; however, it it your only defense, per se!
Of course it's because of 3ABN. If Elder Gilley started charging admission to hear his Sabbath sermons, wouldn't that hurt the work of 3ABN? Why is it any different with Elder Phipps? Or, do you agree that what Phipps did was wrong but you just believe that I handled it in the wrong way?QuoteI don't suppose you'd be interested to know how many times over the past few years such "oversights in planning" have occurred?I don't know how many times there has been an error in planning. Further more I really don't care. I believe this is because of the 3ABN and a tie to this pastor.
SDAminister
Query your specificity as to timing and manner. It doesn't appear you are being challenged on the subject when some merely attempt to grab the steering wheel and blame the problem on others or change the direction of the discussion to more about "steering over by Sally's house" as I have oft heard. It has been observed that blaming other for my errors is probably the most effective in "salving my conscience" next to "steering to less important conversation where interested participants may need to find a bit of intospection on their possible similar conduct.
My professional employment and practice worked best when I was able to determine the most facts in a minimum of yet reasonable amount of time before mental capacity was affefted by frustration. This same success was accomplished in both of my examinations to gain professional status. Keep in mind that frustrations can be caused by over planning rather than proper planning. I have found that specific allegations need to be directly connected to the most direct valid proof available rather than peice-mealed where an audiance is likely to be diluted.
SDAminister, you appeared to lose support with being too specific with "appelations" and "travel scheule arrivals" before the "church member" comments you determined of "preaching schedules were associated with travel departures." I find your final product or overall observations fairly reliable as I used many times in a tax audit where the taxpayer was so chagrined they stated they needed no further professional assistance in my determination of the additional tax due.
A lot of practcal psychology was developed as I audited taxpayers while you may have thought I examined tax returns. I soon found you learned more about what was done as well as what wasn't done with an informal atmosphere rather than allowing the taxpayer slip into an antagonistic frame of mind. It doesn't hurt taxpayer's attitudes to know that the examiner is looked on more rigidly than the examined. If you "ass u me" in an antagonistic environment, you are most likely to do "just that!
A practical example is presented to prove that it is better to let "actions" prove "alleged facts." The President and sole shareholder of an asphalt paving corporation seemed proup to inform me that the general business model was to to have depend heavily on sub-contractors for an eleven month window while using the last two weeks of December and first two weeks of January for vacations and machine maintenance. The President had no problem disclosing that he took an around-the-world tour during this four-week window. All this information was disclosed in the first 15 minutes of our conversation while I mostly listened with an occasional query.
During the hour's conversiation I was able to compliment on the successful business model he had developed as well as comment on the overall feeling of the public on taxation. The President and accountant seemed pleased to present me with the corporate monthly general ledger. In a matter of minutes, I was able to determine a cut-off problem with a December 20 of the prior year mailing of $1,500,000 contract receipt deposited on January 20 and reported that year. With the greatest of ease, it was determined that the corporation deducted what appeared to be "an around the world trip potentially not reasonably associated with carrying on the asphalt business by the President. A basic perusal of the corporate tax return noted a sizable credit for Non-Highway Use Fuel Tax. The corporate books were unique with red-ink entries reducing a "fuel expense account" for fuel sold to sub-contractors which did not allow the corporation to deduct the credit coupled with the assessment of a 200% penalty. I never discussed the merits of my audit until near the end of the audit so as not to impede cooperation and work flow.
This could easily be one of my last messages as none appeared to be interested in domestic relations, divorce, spiritual adultry, etc under this subject.
You know, I thought Fergus Falls was closed. Perhaps it would be interesting to drop by and see if I can visit him
The Adventist Church at Fergus Falls is called Pebble Lake.
Jumping to conclusions with moronic messages is esentially equivalent to "ass u me!"
The same preacher had formerly entered my home, somewhat uninvited, in one door and politely invited to exit through a different door. The preacher declined my invitation to exit the nearest door and instead displayed in such an inordinate manner that he would only exit through the door he entered. The preacher is now in an alleged disabled mental state west of the Mississippi River. I hereby present a query of "superstitious conduct
Beware of independent ministries alleging new light and heightened morals supported by low education\wit!
Let's try to summarize the basic concern that apparently started this thread.
Danny Shelton has claimed over and over again that he started 3ABN to counteract the counterfeit, and to give the undiluted three angels' messages to all the world. I know of nowhere where he has publicly stated that he started 3ABN so that he could live in a large house with a large horse barn, and make several hundred thousand dollars in royalties concealed from his own board and ex-wife.
What folks would like to see is 3ABN return to the professed standards that it was allegedly founded upon. Gone with the . Gone with the pride. Gone with the cover up of allegations of vile sin.
If 3ABN is going to accomplish that objective, they do need to be careful about abstaining from the appearance of evil. Each member of 3ABN needs to be careful about that. And thus far, the only members are the directors, since 3ABN doesn't have a broadband constituency.
So it would be wise if each 3ABN member not engage in commerce on the Sabbath, be wise stewards of God's funds, and follow the SOP counsel regarding remuneration.
But on the flip side you have those wanting to see business as usual at 3ABN,in the middle you have many getting more than a little disgusted by some of the behaviour. If you do not financially support 3ABN,if you do not sit on the board,you have nothing to say about how it operates, once you have made your problems with 3ABN clear to the board or whoever. Most people sitting in their homes reading this are so confused and disillusioned they do not care. Concerning covering up allegations leveled towards TS will get you nowhere. It is not recent enough,and that is not a topic that gets to many excited. I happen to believe Duane Clem and the others, so what???
Turning so many against you because of what others see as pettiness,sarcasm and a real eagerness to draw blood is not wise in the eyes of many.
The SOP is not a mandatory law. Many disregard EW as anything from delusional to you name it. It is not something you can force thru this lawsuit. Doesn't matter who started it, much of this a judge will not even hear I don't think.
I am very curious to know how you can make this statement? How in the world would you know what "most people" are thinking?
Again, how do you know what "many" are thinking?
Much of WHAT don't you think a judge will hear? I don't think anyone involved is expecting the judge to utilize SOP in the case. Is that what you are referring to?
Let's back up a little. I have said that it was wrong for Shelley Quinn and company to trash Alyssa Moore's statement about Danny's alleged sexual assault in global TV while claiming to not be defending themselves. I have definitely made statements like that.
Perhaps there have been times when I have addressed the Danny defenders' language and tone, but I don't recall.
I have stated that certain apologies should be made, and I have demonstrated that I am willing to do that myself.
Worshiping vipers? Yes, I think Gailon should not have said that.
I can go you one better. Gailon was wrong, there is no thinking or two ways about it.
Bonnie,
I do have disdain for those who pretend to look for truth and hobnob with those who support Linda but then secretly work at cross purposes.
I am surprised you did not take exception to Mahta Hari. That implication is clearer and more precise. One who works both sides to their advantage and purposes?
I have never asked anyone to appreciate or agree with my style of tackling issues and I have never complained that anyone filed suit against me. It is true that following the collapse of the ecclesiastical tribunal with ASI that I realized the only option was litigation. Our requests to meet with the board and explain our evidence and concerns has also been spurned. What other option was available as the battle ratcheted up and we met the bully pulpit of the Thursday 3ABNToday Live with a website? It was clear they would try to shut us down. Litigation was the only option...simple analysis. And I did indeed begin preparation to meet the threat head on.
It is also true that I do not fear or avoid litigation...if their is a battle to be fought, then I will fight it. I have made it clear that war has it's casualties. This is a war, a long protracted war that just happens to cross the paths of peace loving and submissive Seventh-day Adventists. I have never fit the mold and while born and bred an SDA I also was inculcated with the premise that if you meet goliath, in or out of the church, challenge him!!!
It is regretable that you find it so objectionable and I have long recognized that SDA's do not appreciate direct conflict and straight talk, clearly you included.
As to the banning of SAM, well I find it a great opportunity to ask questions of a person clearly very close to the seat of power...it is always great to see what the answers will be. A Good intelligence source lost, in my opinion. And frankly, your response was uncalled for. How is that for arrogance!!!
Rest assured, I am non-discriminating. If I do not agree with your view I let you know...I believe that is still constitutional.
On the other hand, I come from a background that allows vigorous debate and then shake hands, eat lunch together go away friends, something that SDA's find impossible.
GailonArthur Joy
On the other hand, I come from a background that allows vigorous debate and then shake hands, eat lunch together go away friends, something that SDA's find impossible.
GailonArthur Joy
This is another part of the story I do not buy........
With great regret that I am constrained to share the following info with the Advent Talk forum.
.
I think it was with great delight instead of regret. About the only thing you left out was what they had for breakfast and what time.
QuoteI do have disdain for those who pretend to look for truth and hobnob with those who support Linda but then secretly work at cross purposes.
Just your explanation in the first sentence is skewed as far as I am concerned. Do you really have such a high opinion of yourself that those you have accused of being turncoats were actually deliberately hobnobbing with you. I don't think that you are that high on the scale. I could be wrong, have been before.
Because someone does not support what you wish, or from the first have had a clear and unchanging agenda you claim disdain. Perhaps you are having a problem because some have come to feel disdain for you
If you do not financially support 3ABN,if you do not sit on the board,you have nothing to say about how it operates, once you have made your problems with 3ABN clear to the board or whoever.
The SOP is not a mandatory law. Many disregard EW as anything from delusional to you name it. It is not something you can force thru this lawsuit. Doesn't matter who started it, much of this a judge will not even hear I don't think.
This is another part of the story I do not buy........
With great regret that I am constrained to share the following info with the Advent Talk forum.
.
I think it was with great delight instead of regret. About the only thing you left out was what they had for breakfast and what time.
I don't read 'any regret' here either Bonnie.
Sounded more to me like another 'Gotcha this time!'
Incidentally, have you never travelled on Sabbath? How do you get to Church? These days, travel can be a lot more complicated than just walking to Church - or hadn't anyone else noticed? :australia:
Quote
Let's try to summarize the basic concern that apparently started this thread.
Danny Shelton has claimed over and over again that he started 3ABN to counteract the counterfeit, and to give the undiluted three angels' messages to all the world. I know of nowhere where he has publicly stated that he started 3ABN so that he could live in a large house with a large horse barn, and make several hundred thousand dollars in royalties concealed from his own board and ex-wife.
What house he lives in, how big,what size the barn is really no one's business IF that comes as a result of living within his stated income.
This is another part of the story I do not buy........
With great regret that I am constrained to share the following info with the Advent Talk forum.
.
I think it was with great delight instead of regret. About the only thing you left out was what they had for breakfast and what time.
I don't read 'any regret' here either Bonnie.
Sounded more to me like another 'Gotcha this time!'
Incidentally, have you never travelled on Sabbath? How do you get to Church? These days, travel can be a lot more complicated than just walking to Church - or hadn't anyone else noticed? :australia:
I personally do not travel to church on a commercial jet, a church service that no one can attend unless they purchase tickets.
First, I am not a hob nobber!!! I have never hob nobbed with Grandma!!! I have never had the money to HOBNOB but rather fit the Hoi Poloi...keeps the conflicts of interest to a minimum. And that eliminates the reticence of dealing with issues.
Second, I think I have made it clear that I have had a problem with this perpetual premise that Grandma is looking for the truth. The truth is staring her in the face and she still has no clarity. It is farsical. She knows the truth. SAM knows the truth. Many know the truth but ignore it for the comforting none-reality of peace and
safety. Or they simply have financial conflicts. Grandma subscribes to peace and safety as we are told so many many will. And what do you subscribe to?
Third, I find your arrogance a more than equal match, so arrogate on. Should be a fun exchange!!!
If 3ABN did not come across as being a Seventh-day Adventist channel in my community, then maybe, maybe this would be an appropriate position. But since 3ABN affects my ability to witness in my community if its leadership engages in unbiblical divorce, lies, private increment, and cover ups, then there is nothing wrong with my voicing my concerns.
Plus remember, I was responsible for promoting 3ABN on billboards and in multiple newspapers around here. Thus I have supported 3ABN.And that should mean what?? That everyone in your area remembers or knows that you were instrumental for bringing 3ABN to your area. Or they hold you personally accountable for how DS handled his divorce and remarriage.
My point is independent of judges or lawsuits. If there were no judges or lawsuits in the entire world, my point would still be valid.
QuoteIf 3ABN did not come across as being a Seventh-day Adventist channel in my community, then maybe, maybe this would be an appropriate position. But since 3ABN affects my ability to witness in my community if its leadership engages in unbiblical divorce, lies, private increment, and cover ups, then there is nothing wrong with my voicing my concerns.
Bob,
Read what you are saying, really read it. Do you go around your area making sure every adventist is keeping the sabbath according to your dictates? I can flat out guarantee you that there are those within your community going against what you would want the non-SDA community to see.
How long has it been since the divorce and remarriage?? That didn't even warrent a blip anywhere except what a few have struggled to do.
Voicing your opinion is one thing,I think you have done more than voice an opinion.QuotePlus remember, I was responsible for promoting 3ABN on billboards and in multiple newspapers around here. Thus I have supported 3ABN.And that should mean what?? That everyone in your area remembers or knows that you were instrumental for bringing 3ABN to your area. Or they hold you personally accountable for how DS handled his divorce and remarriage.
You are way out of line with some of this stuff, I think you know it and haven't a clue how either to get it back on track or extradite yourself from it. As there is no one going to be willing to let you back on track, you hopefully will think of another alternative.QuoteMy point is independent of judges or lawsuits. If there were no judges or lawsuits in the entire world, my point would still be valid.
You are entitled to your opinion. You also can set yourself up as the vanguard of adventism, but don't be surprised when others resent it and come along and knock you off the pedestal that you and Gailon have erected for yourself.
This is another part of the story I do not buy........
With great regret that I am constrained to share the following info with the Advent Talk forum.
.
I think it was with great delight instead of regret. About the only thing you left out was what they had for breakfast and what time.
I don't read 'any regret' here either Bonnie.
Sounded more to me like another 'Gotcha this time!'
Incidentally, have you never travelled on Sabbath? How do you get to Church? These days, travel can be a lot more complicated than just walking to Church - or hadn't anyone else noticed? :australia:
I personally do not travel to church on a commercial jet, a church service that no one can attend unless they purchase tickets.
Does this sound familiar, Mr Pickle?
"The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican."
It was a sponsored event not the Sabbath worship service. My understanding is it started at 7pm on both Saturday and Sunday nights.
I don't know, but somehow I think it would have been very difficult for Phipps to either walk or hitch up his horse and buggy after giving the sermon at his own church and arrive on time...
And Pickle think, iis it just because it was a plane? (or that you don't fly anywhere or have people willing to purchase tickets as a benefit for others just to hear you? ) Many also travel by trains or automobiles, or (gasp) even a bus or a subway.. to do the Lord's work, to witness, or to attend Church. What about them? Let's just condemn them all! After all an internal combustion engine is lighting a fire on the Sabbath, and all involves buying gas and or a ticket, so let's just assume that all traveling on the Sabbath (ncluding Phipps) purchased those things during Sabbath hours..
Maybe that's offbase? Nothing wrong with any of them doing such as long as finances were taken care of before sundown Friday night?
Well then what is Phipps being condemned for? Traveling too many miles? He exceeded a Sabbath day's journey?
This is all such a joke. You need to stop embarrassing yourself.
I personally do not travel to church on a commercial jet, a church service that no one can attend unless they purchase tickets.
This is another part of the story I do not buy........
With great regret that I am constrained to share the following info with the Advent Talk forum.
.
I think it was with great delight instead of regret. About the only thing you left out was what they had for breakfast and what time.
I don't read 'any regret' here either Bonnie.
Sounded more to me like another 'Gotcha this time!'
Incidentally, have you never travelled on Sabbath? How do you get to Church? These days, travel can be a lot more complicated than just walking to Church - or hadn't anyone else noticed? :australia:
I personally do not travel to church on a commercial jet, a church service that no one can attend unless they purchase tickets.
This is another part of the story I do not buy........
With great regret that I am constrained to share the following info with the Advent Talk forum.
.
I think it was with great delight instead of regret. About the only thing you left out was what they had for breakfast and what time.
I don't read 'any regret' here either Bonnie.
Sounded more to me like another 'Gotcha this time!'
Incidentally, have you never travelled on Sabbath? How do you get to Church? These days, travel can be a lot more complicated than just walking to Church - or hadn't anyone else noticed? :australia:
I personally do not travel to church on a commercial jet, a church service that no one can attend unless they purchase tickets.
Does this sound familiar, Mr Pickle?
"The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican."
It was a sponsored event not the Sabbath worship service. My understanding is it started at 7pm on both Saturday and Sunday nights.
I don't know, but somehow I think it would have been very difficult for Phipps to either walk or hitch up his horse and buggy after giving the sermon at his own church and arrive on time...
And Pickle think, iis it just because it was a plane? (or that you don't fly anywhere or have people willing to purchase tickets as a benefit for others just to hear you? ) Many also travel by trains or automobiles, or (gasp) even a bus or a subway.. to do the Lord's work, to witness, or to attend Church. What about them? Let's just condemn them all! After all an internal combustion engine is lighting a fire on the Sabbath, and all involves buying gas and or a ticket, so let's just assume that all traveling on the Sabbath (ncluding Phipps) purchased those things during Sabbath hours..
Maybe that's offbase? Nothing wrong with any of them doing such as long as finances were taken care of before sundown Friday night?
Well then what is Phipps being condemned for? Traveling too many miles? He exceeded a Sabbath day's journey?
This is all such a joke. You need to stop embarrassing yourself.
I guess the 'purchasing tickets' is the sticking point. I have had to fly on Sabbath, but those tickets have been purchased on line and in advance, and it's not something that I make a practice of doing.
There is a phrase I often hear in Australia, and that is "the tyranny of distance". I think that other Ozzies here could back that up. City living is very different to 'country living' and while one tries to avoid such travelling, there are Pastors who have such long distances between appointments, that is the only way they can reach the 'outback'.
You bring up a question I have struggle with for many years now, Chrissie.
I grew up in a very conservative SDA family. I am very blessed, and I don't want this post to be misconstrued as complaining! But I have never quite understood this mentality, whereby as long as one purchases their tickets to an event or for travel or whatever, prior to the Sabbath hours that all is OK. I am NOT finding fault with those who think that way, please understand. But I just don't get it. The Fourth Commandment tells us not to do any work on the Sabbath - not only us, but our sons, daughters, manservants, maidservants, our animals...even the stranger within our gates. It doesn't say "thou shalt not transact money on the Sabbath" or that "as long as you pay for something ahead of time it doesn't matter if someone else has to work during the Sabbath hours to make it happen". Regardless of when I might pay for something like an airline ticket or even going to the zoo, it doesn't change the fact that someone else (ie, "the stranger within my gates") has to work to provide me that service. In the zoo example, obviously someone has to care for the animals over the Sabbath (an "essential" service) just like hospital staff, but just because I might have bought my ticket on Thursday, a zoo employee still has to be there to accept my ticket and let me in to the grounds. Aren't they working? And regardless of when a commercial airline ticket is purchased, if the flight takes place on Sabbath aren't the "strangers within my gates" working to provide me a service? This continues to puzzle me...
I guess the 'purchasing tickets' is the sticking point. I have had to fly on Sabbath, but those tickets have been purchased on line and in advance, and it's not something that I make a practice of doing.
There is a phrase I often hear in Australia, and that is "the tyranny of distance". I think that other Ozzies here could back that up. City living is very different to 'country living' and while one tries to avoid such travelling, there are Pastors who have such long distances between appointments, that is the only way they can reach the 'outback'.
3) This has nothing to do with anyone in particular being a vanguard for Adventism. We have a right as members of our church to voice our concerns about some too-powerful, unaccountable fellow bringing disrepute upon our faith. And John Lomacang ought to do his job and call him to account in a church business meeting.
If you do not financially support 3ABN,if you do not sit on the board,you have nothing to say about how it operates, once you have made your problems with 3ABN clear to the board or whoever.
If 3ABN did not come across as being a Seventh-day Adventist channel in my community, then maybe, maybe this would be an appropriate position. But since 3ABN affects my ability to witness in my community if its leadership engages in unbiblical divorce, lies, private inurement, and cover ups, then there is nothing wrong with my voicing my concerns.
Plus remember, I was responsible for promoting 3ABN on billboards and in multiple newspapers around here. Thus I have supported 3ABN.The SOP is not a mandatory law. Many disregard EW as anything from delusional to you name it. It is not something you can force thru this lawsuit. Doesn't matter who started it, much of this a judge will not even hear I don't think.
My point is independent of judges or lawsuits. If there were no judges or lawsuits in the entire world, my point would still be valid.
Bob, give people of the world who view 3abn a little more credit for having the ability to observe, think and draw their own conclusions. . If they are unable to do so, they will be blown about by any wind of doctrine anyway. Faith is a journey that each individual begins in their own sphere and follows at their own pace. You don't have to tell them what to think or spoon feed them your interpretation of our standards or doctrines. The Holy Spirit has that covered. Your job, anyone's job, is to reflect God's character as we love the Lord our God with all our hearts, minds and spirits and love those around us (including the sinful) as we love ourselves.
"Adventism" is not a one-size-fits-all king of religion. We have conservatives, liberals, traditionals, progressives, historics, pew warmers, those on fire, those reaching back into the Old Testament to follow the Jewish rituals and festivals and everything in between, including sinners.... lots of sinners.
If I was not strong in my own faith and connection with God, the behavior I have seen from you, Gailon and others who feel it is okay to treat fellow believers with such contempt would start me looking for another denomination. The face of adventism you are modeling to whatever bit of the world is reading here is truly a sad one.
You worry about the example of 3abn.... far better to worry about your own example and the negative impact you are having on others.
Right now there is a program on National Geographic channel about an Adventist cult. There was a young lady talking about the spiritual beauty of laying naked with cult leader, Michael Travesser, and how the love of God came through to her through that.
People will believe whatever works for them.
Right now there is a program on National Geographic channel about an Adventist cult. There was a young lady talking about the spiritual beauty of laying naked with cult leader, Michael Travesser, and how the love of God came through to her through that.
People will believe whatever works for them.
You bring up a question I have struggle with for many years now, Chrissie.
I grew up in a very conservative SDA family. I am very blessed, and I don't want this post to be misconstrued as complaining! But I have never quite understood this mentality, whereby as long as one purchases their tickets to an event or for travel or whatever, prior to the Sabbath hours that all is OK. I am NOT finding fault with those who think that way, please understand. But I just don't get it. The Fourth Commandment tells us not to do any work on the Sabbath - not only us, but our sons, daughters, manservants, maidservants, our animals...even the stranger within our gates. It doesn't say "thou shalt not transact money on the Sabbath" or that "as long as you pay for something ahead of time it doesn't matter if someone else has to work during the Sabbath hours to make it happen". Regardless of when I might pay for something like an airline ticket or even going to the zoo, it doesn't change the fact that someone else (ie, "the stranger within my gates") has to work to provide me that service. In the zoo example, obviously someone has to care for the animals over the Sabbath (an "essential" service) just like hospital staff, but just because I might have bought my ticket on Thursday, a zoo employee still has to be there to accept my ticket and let me in to the grounds. Aren't they working? And regardless of when a commercial airline ticket is purchased, if the flight takes place on Sabbath aren't the "strangers within my gates" working to provide me a service? This continues to puzzle me...
3) This has nothing to do with anyone in particular being a vanguard for Adventism. We have a right as members of our church to voice our concerns about some too-powerful, unaccountable fellow bringing disrepute upon our faith. And John Lomacang ought to do his job and call him to account in a church business meeting.
I think it would be far more appropriate for the pastor in Gailon's home church, rather than Pastor John Lomacang, to call this unaccountable fellow to account for bringing disrepute upon our faith.
If 3ABN did not come across as being a Seventh-day Adventist channel in my community, then maybe, maybe this would be an appropriate position. But since 3ABN affects my ability to witness in my community if its leadership engages in unbiblical divorce, lies, private inurement, and cover ups, then there is nothing wrong with my voicing my concerns.
Bob, give people of the world who view 3abn a little more credit for having the ability to observe, think and draw their own conclusions.
If we desire the blessing promised to the obedient, we must observe the Sabbath more strictly. I fear that we often travel on this day when it might be avoided. In harmony with the light which the Lord has given in regard to the observance of the Sabbath, we should be more careful about traveling on the boats or cars on this day. In these matters we should set a right example before our children and youth. In order to reach the churches that need our help, and to give them the message that God desires them to hear, it may be necessary for us to travel on the Sabbath; but so far as possible we should secure our tickets and make all necessary arrangements on some other day. When starting on a journey we should make every possible effort to plan so as to avoid reaching our destination on the Sabbath" (6T 359, 360)
It would be grossly out of line for Gailon's home church to discipline Danny Shelton. They have no authority to do so, and I think you know that.
I have had an individual here refer to 3ABN as a Seventh-day Adventist channel. What right does 3ABN have to come into this territory and broadcast a tribute to an alleged pedophile without protest, allowing themselves to be considered a Seventh-day Adventist channel?
QuoteIf we desire the blessing promised to the obedient, we must observe the Sabbath more strictly. I fear that we often travel on this day when it might be avoided. In harmony with the light which the Lord has given in regard to the observance of the Sabbath, we should be more careful about traveling on the boats or cars on this day. In these matters we should set a right example before our children and youth. In order to reach the churches that need our help, and to give them the message that God desires them to hear, it may be necessary for us to travel on the Sabbath; but so far as possible we should secure our tickets and make all necessary arrangements on some other day. When starting on a journey we should make every possible effort to plan so as to avoid reaching our destination on the Sabbath" (6T 359, 360)
Where in the above does it say that Bob Pickle has the right, duty, and obligation to dog the steps of anyone to see if they are observing the sabbath correctly?
This kind of stuff is fast eroding any credibility you had or will have.
,
QuoteIt would be grossly out of line for Gailon's home church to discipline Danny Shelton. They have no authority to do so, and I think you know that.
I am not quite sure, but I don't think there was a call to have Gailon's home church discipline this pastor.
I have had an individual here refer to 3ABN as a Seventh-day Adventist channel. What right does 3ABN have to come into this territory and broadcast a tribute to an alleged pedophile without protest, allowing themselves to be considered a Seventh-day Adventist channel?
The whole sexual allegations has a bad smell, but what are you going to do about it. These are not all consuming issues to many in the SDA chuirch or our leadership.
I'm sure there are a lot of church leaders who do care about such issues. Feel free to issue a poll and then tell us what percentage don't care.
"Traveling on the Sabbath
"If we desire the blessing promised to the obedient, we must observe the Sabbath more strictly. I fear that we often travel on this day when it might be avoided. In harmony with the light which the Lord has given in regard to the observance of the Sabbath, we should be more careful about traveling on the boats or cars on this day. In these matters we should set a right example before our children and youth. In order to reach the churches that need our help, and to give them the message that God desires them to hear, it may be necessary for us to travel on the Sabbath; but so far as possible we should secure our tickets and make all necessary arrangements on some other day. When starting on a journey we should make every possible effort to plan so as to avoid reaching our destination on the Sabbath" (6T 359, 360)
3) This has nothing to do with anyone in particular being a vanguard for Adventism. We have a right as members of our church to voice our concerns about some too-powerful, unaccountable fellow bringing disrepute upon our faith. And John Lomacang ought to do his job and call him to account in a church business meeting.
I think it would be far more appropriate for the pastor in Gailon's home church, rather than Pastor John Lomacang, to call this unaccountable fellow to account for bringing disrepute upon our faith.
It would be grossly out of line for Gailon's home church to discipline Danny Shelton. They have no authority to do so, and I think you know that.
If 3ABN did not come across as being a Seventh-day Adventist channel in my community, then maybe, maybe this would be an appropriate position. But since 3ABN affects my ability to witness in my community if its leadership engages in unbiblical divorce, lies, private inurement, and cover ups, then there is nothing wrong with my voicing my concerns.
Bob, give people of the world who view 3abn a little more credit for having the ability to observe, think and draw their own conclusions.
I have had an individual here refer to 3ABN as a Seventh-day Adventist channel. What right does 3ABN have to come into this territory and broadcast a tribute to an alleged pedophile without protest, allowing themselves to be considered a Seventh-day Adventist channel?
3) This has nothing to do with anyone in particular being a vanguard for Adventism. We have a right as members of our church to voice our concerns about some too-powerful, unaccountable fellow bringing disrepute upon our faith. And John Lomacang ought to do his job and call him to account in a church business meeting.
I think it would be far more appropriate for the pastor in Gailon's home church, rather than Pastor John Lomacang, to call this unaccountable fellow to account for bringing disrepute upon our faith.
It would be grossly out of line for Gailon's home church to discipline Danny Shelton. They have no authority to do so, and I think you know that.
I voiced my concern as a member of this church. While I was fully aware that you were referring to Danny Shelton, your description could well be applied to Gailon and sometimes even you.
I agree with Bonnie that you and Gailon have attempted to set yourselves up as vanguards of adventism, specifically conservative adventism, but you have both crossed the line in how you have put that into action. Does Gailon's pastor realize what he is saying and doing? Has his pastor seen the manner in which he treats other members of this denomination?If 3ABN did not come across as being a Seventh-day Adventist channel in my community, then maybe, maybe this would be an appropriate position. But since 3ABN affects my ability to witness in my community if its leadership engages in unbiblical divorce, lies, private inurement, and cover ups, then there is nothing wrong with my voicing my concerns.
Bob, give people of the world who view 3abn a little more credit for having the ability to observe, think and draw their own conclusions.
I have had an individual here refer to 3ABN as a Seventh-day Adventist channel. What right does 3ABN have to come into this territory and broadcast a tribute to an alleged pedophile without protest, allowing themselves to be considered a Seventh-day Adventist channel?
You have gone to great lengths to protest. How is that working for you? Is the individual who referred to 3abn as a Seventh-day Adventist channel now clear that 3abn is a private ministry that carries much programming that is in line with the SDA denomination? Or have you helped the individual, and others who might be under the same impression, stop watching the programming 3abn is broadcasting in that territory because of the alleged sins of some of those in leadership?
It was my viewing of 3abn as I cared for my aged grandmother that was partly responsible for my return to active membership within this denomination. The presentations in some of the programming drove me to my Bible to begin studying for myself to see if these things were so. I am quite certain that I am not alone in this regard.
"Traveling on the Sabbath
"If we desire the blessing promised to the obedient, we must observe the Sabbath more strictly. I fear that we often travel on this day when it might be avoided. In harmony with the light which the Lord has given in regard to the observance of the Sabbath, we should be more careful about traveling on the boats or cars on this day. In these matters we should set a right example before our children and youth. In order to reach the churches that need our help, and to give them the message that God desires them to hear, it may be necessary for us to travel on the Sabbath; but so far as possible we should secure our tickets and make all necessary arrangements on some other day. When starting on a journey we should make every possible effort to plan so as to avoid reaching our destination on the Sabbath" (6T 359, 360)
Bob, this is an interesting EGW quote for you to bring up in this particular thread. Perhaps SDAminister hadn't run across this one in his studies before he started this thread to regretfully try to sully the reputation of Pastor Wintley Phipps due to his seat on the 3abn BOD.
SDAminister, did you check to see when Pastor Phipps' commercial airline ticket was purchased? What if he used frequent flyer miles, and those, say, on a Tuesday to purchase his ticket?I did check. Did you? What did you find out? Please let us all know. I hate to be the only source of info on this.
He most assuredly was bringing those who attended that fundraiser for The Dream Academy "the message that God desires them to hear". He wasn't selling new or used mules, he was faithfully using his God-given talent as a speaker and singer to bring the gospel to a group who wished to support his essential work to children of prisoners.
He most assuredly was bringing those who attended that fundraiser for The Dream Academy "the message that God desires them to hear". He wasn't selling new or used mules, he was faithfully using his God-given talent as a speaker and singer to bring the gospel to a group who wished to support his essential work to children of prisoners.
GrandmaNettie,
Thank you for noting that this was a fundraiser. Is that what God had in mind as a way to help people--to hold fundraisers for them on the Sabbath?
I had not wanted to really invoke the Spirit of Prophecy on this issue, due to the fact that many have little faith in it. But thanks GrandmaNettie for bringing her in! Her counsel is invaluable.
"When money is raised for religious purposes, to what means do many churches resort? To bazaars, suppers, fancy fairs, even to lotteries and like devices. Often the place set apart for God's worship is desecrated by feasting and drinking, buying, selling, and merrymaking. Respect for the house of God and reverence for His worship are lessened in the minds of the youth. The barriers of self-restraint are weakened. Selfishness, appetite, the love of display, are appealed to, and they strengthen as they are indulged.--Testimonies, vol. 9, p. 91."
So, which way is it? God frowns upon selling things to raise money for religious purposes. So, if the Dream Academy is a "religious purpose", they are contravening the command of God. And, if it is not a religious purpose, then Dream Academy's purpose is secular, and there can't be any fund raising of it on the Sabbath because that would break the fourth commandment. NOBODY thinks that secular business should be done on the Sabbath. It's a tight corner you've put Elder Phipps into GrandmaNettie!
"If you keep your feet from breaking the Sabbath and from doing as you please on my holy day, if you call the Sabbath a delight and the LORD's holy day honorable, and if you honor it by not going your own way and not doing as you please or speaking idle words, then you will find your joy in the LORD, and I will cause you to ride in triumph on the heights of the land..."
"Traveling on the Sabbath
"If we desire the blessing promised to the obedient, we must observe the Sabbath more strictly. I fear that we often travel on this day when it might be avoided. In harmony with the light which the Lord has given in regard to the observance of the Sabbath, we should be more careful about traveling on the boats or cars on this day. In these matters we should set a right example before our children and youth. In order to reach the churches that need our help, and to give them the message that God desires them to hear, it may be necessary for us to travel on the Sabbath; but so far as possible we should secure our tickets and make all necessary arrangements on some other day. When starting on a journey we should make every possible effort to plan so as to avoid reaching our destination on the Sabbath" (6T 359, 360)
Bob, this is an interesting EGW quote for you to bring up in this particular thread. Perhaps SDAminister hadn't run across this one in his studies before he started this thread to regretfully try to sully the reputation of Pastor Wintley Phipps due to his seat on the 3abn BOD.
GrandmaNettie,
...and perhaps SDAminister had run across this one in his studies.
Let's reestablish a few facts:
-Elder Phipps was not traveling to an SDA church to give a Sabbath message
-The purpose of Elder Phipps trip was to raise money for his business/charity---US Dream Academy. See the motive? Not Sabbath truth, but money for Dream Academy.
-Since Elder Phipps has stated, according to others on this forum, that he is a full time employee of the Dream Academy, why didn't he travel to his destination on the Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, or Friday preceding his concert? You know, the days of the week that he works for the Dream Academy. As you so eloquently quoted, "When starting on a journey we should make every possible effort to plan so as to avoid reaching our destination on the Sabbath". Elder Phipps appears to have failed to do what you suggested he do. Instead, he skipped the service at his own church Sabbath morning and took a mid-day Sabbath flight across country to perform at a for-profit concert.
SDAminister
SDAminister, did you check to see when Pastor Phipps' commercial airline ticket was purchased? What if he used frequent flyer miles, and those, say, on a Tuesday to purchase his ticket?I did check. Did you? What did you find out? Please let us all know. I hate to be the only source of info on this.
SDAminister
He most assuredly was bringing those who attended that fundraiser for The Dream Academy "the message that God desires them to hear". He wasn't selling new or used mules, he was faithfully using his God-given talent as a speaker and singer to bring the gospel to a group who wished to support his essential work to children of prisoners.
GrandmaNettie,
Thank you for noting that this was a fundraiser. Is that what God had in mind as a way to help people--to hold fundraisers for them on the Sabbath?
I had not wanted to really invoke the Spirit of Prophecy on this issue, due to the fact that many have little faith in it. But thanks GrandmaNettie for bringing her in! Her counsel is invaluable.
"When money is raised for religious purposes, to what means do many churches resort? To bazaars, suppers, fancy fairs, even to lotteries and like devices. Often the place set apart for God's worship is desecrated by feasting and drinking, buying, selling, and merrymaking. Respect for the house of God and reverence for His worship are lessened in the minds of the youth. The barriers of self-restraint are weakened. Selfishness, appetite, the love of display, are appealed to, and they strengthen as they are indulged.--Testimonies, vol. 9, p. 91."
So, which way is it? God frowns upon selling things to raise money for religious purposes. So, if the Dream Academy is a "religious purpose", they are contravening the command of God. And, if it is not a religious purpose, then Dream Academy's purpose is secular, and there can't be any fund raising of it on the Sabbath because that would break the fourth commandment. NOBODY thinks that secular business should be done on the Sabbath. It's a tight corner you've put Elder Phipps into GrandmaNettie!
SDAminister
SDAminister, did you check to see when Pastor Phipps' commercial airline ticket was purchased? What if he used frequent flyer miles, and those, say, on a Tuesday to purchase his ticket?I did check. Did you? What did you find out? Please let us all know. I hate to be the only source of info on this.
SDAminister
I have little doubt that if you checked and found that Pastor Wintley Phipps had purchased his commercial airline ticket on Sabbath, you would have trumpeted that in your OP.
SDAminister, did you check to see when Pastor Phipps' commercial airline ticket was purchased? What if he used frequent flyer miles, and those, say, on a Tuesday to purchase his ticket?I did check. Did you? What did you find out? Please let us all know. I hate to be the only source of info on this.
SDAminister
I have little doubt that if you checked and found that Pastor Wintley Phipps had purchased his commercial airline ticket on Sabbath, you would have trumpeted that in your OP.
I never made it an issue of how or when Elder Phipps purchased his ticket---you did. My issue was the unnecessary Sabbath travel. BTW, I do know how he came by his ticket. Again, what did you find out when you checked? Or, have you checked? Would you like some phone numbers to help out?
SDAminister
It seems to me that the bible has a story about a group that obeyed the sabbath, added restraints on activity,and yet was condemnd by Christ
It seems to me that the bible has a story about a group that obeyed the sabbath, added restraints on activity,and yet was condemnd by Christ
They added restraints that God had not given. That was a problem.
So? It would make it all better if his destination was an SDA church? The quote that Bob used as supporting material for his argument stated "in order to reach the churches that need our help". It did not specify SDA churches.
US Dream Academy is his ministry. The man who organized the fundraiser did so to raise and donate the funds to Wintley Phipps' ministry. God's message to this world is not only "Sabbath truth", it is everlasting life for those who believe in Him. See John 3.
You might want to check with an accountant to determine if that event was actually a "for-profit concert" or if, perhaps, you have mispoken.
It seems to me that the bible has a story about a group that obeyed the sabbath, added restraints on activity,and yet was condemnd by Christ
They added restraints that God had not given. That was a problem.
Bob,
What is it you hope to accomplish between you and "SDAminister"
Shall we see if we can cause the removal of his ministerial credentials?? Add it to the list complaints against 3ABN??
Boycott the next performance of this pastor?? What??
Take it to his conference and maybe get on MN conference to stop any performaces in MN.
If you can't get much by way of traction with "allegations" that have been made concerning TS, what on earth leads you to believe this is anything more than a big yawn?
At the least voice your displeasure to the conference president of this pastor. You are only eroding the base of support you still had
Bonnie
You are only eroding the base of support you still had
Do you know how many SDA's are in prison now or who lost their jobs because they would not do what Elder Phipps boldly does? I don't know the number. God does.
For-what-it's-worth, I have already spoken at length with my conference president about this issue. He is not amused by what Elder Phipps did.
Perhaps we should extend this discussion further. If it is all right for Elder Phipps to hold a concert on the Sabbath that you have to pay to get in to, what's keeping him from doing so at any of the camp meetings he attends? Why not have a Sabbath evening concert at next year's Texico Conference camp meeting? Tickets: $25 in advance, $30 at the door.
And if it is all right to buy and sell tickets on the Sabbath for a good cause like Elder Phipps charity, why doesn't 3ABN do such a thing at its camp meeting? You know, they could sell tickets to benefit their own charity--themselves. What would be wrong with this, if we were to follow such logic?
SDAminister
Let's make sure we don't become pharisaical. Just because someone else handles the sales and such and then gives us the money does not mean we aren't responsible when we knew up front that that was how it was going to work.
5) This thread is an example of why I say that while certain critics of 3-ABN began with a high moral purpose, some of those critics have abandoned the high moral purpose that they once had.
Discussing the importance of Sabbath keeping and abstaining from the appearance of evil is abandoning a high moral purpose? Sounds like a stretch.
5) This thread is an example of why I say that while certain critics of 3-ABN began with a high moral purpose, some of those critics have abandoned the high moral purpose that they once had.
Discussing the importance of Sabbath keeping and abstaining from the appearance of evil is abandoning a high moral purpose? Sounds like a stretch.
Discussing the importance of Sabbath keeping and abstaining from the appearance of evil is abandoning a high moral purpose? Sounds like a stretch.
Bob, the above is an example of why there are some who accuse you of twisting statements into something that they are not.
If you had even a minimal understanding of what I have said you would recognize that I have equated the un-Christian public attacks on an individual ....
What is abandoning the high moral purpose is character assassination. That was the purpose of this thread and anyone with a brain can see that.
What is abandoning the high moral purpose is character assassination. That was the purpose of this thread and anyone with a brain can see that.
5) This thread is an example of why I say that while certain critics of 3-ABN began with a high moral purpose, some of those critics have abandoned the high moral purpose that they once had.
Discussing the importance of Sabbath keeping and abstaining from the appearance of evil is abandoning a high moral purpose? Sounds like a stretch.
Bob, discussion of the importance of Sabbath can be a very moral thing to do. On that topic, I would much rather hear about your joy in the Sabbath then how miserably you feel others are failing in their observance.
What is abandoning the high moral purpose is character assassination. That was the purpose of this thread and anyone with a brain can see that. People are tuning out…
I am only posting links to part of the Sabbath hours posts they have made on the 3abn Forums.
Anything you think I should not have said on the Sabbath?
I appreciated Wintley's contribution to the 2006 10 Commandment Weekend.
I believe Walt Thompson has said that the board approved Danny's remarriage. Did Wintley participate in that decision?
Wintley used to work for our religious liberty department. Has he been supportive of this lawsuit that was conceived in retaliation against blowing the whistle against the cover up of child molestation allegations? Or does he think that people have a right to speak out against the cover up of child molestation allegations, as well as private inurement? Where does he stand on religious liberty now?
On the other hand, was Wintley one of the board members Nick Miller referred to that were working with him to put some accountability for Danny into the system?
Anything you think I should not have said on the Sabbath?
I appreciated Wintley's contribution to the 2006 10 Commandment Weekend.
I believe Walt Thompson has said that the board approved Danny's remarriage. Did Wintley participate in that decision?
Wintley used to work for our religious liberty department. Has he been supportive of this lawsuit that was conceived in retaliation against blowing the whistle against the cover up of child molestation allegations? Or does he think that people have a right to speak out against the cover up of child molestation allegations, as well as private inurement? Where does he stand on religious liberty now?
On the other hand, was Wintley one of the board members Nick Miller referred to that were working with him to put some accountability for Danny into the system?
Bob, this is the U.S. You have the right to call it as you see it. However, when you enter the legal arena you are bound by the law. In the venue of the law, the issues that you have raised above are not -sconsidered to be religious liberty issues. Perhaps as a long-shot you might claim that taking your allegations to a chruch court would allow you to claim religious liberty for that. But, by taking your allligation to the public, in the eyes of the law you no longer can claim religious liberty protections.
Call that wrong if you will. The law is not concerned with right and wrong, that is in pervue of the churches. The law is simply concerned with the law, whether it is right or wrong.
What is abandoning the high moral purpose is character assassination. That was the purpose of this thread and anyone with a brain can see that.
Maxey,
I'd be interested in knowing where you draw the line on such things.
- Was speaking out about concerns about the Tommy Shelton child molestation allegations character assassination?
- Was speaking out against Danny Shelton's cover up of those child molestation allegations character assassination?
- Was speaking out against Danny Shelton allowing his ex-step-daughter's allegations of sexual assault to be called a lie on global television character assassination?
- Was speaking out against Danny Shelton's unbiblical divorce character assassination?
- Was speaking out against Danny Shelton's 1998 real estate deal character assassination?
I'd like to hear more from you regarding your criteria for determining what is character assassination and what is not. It's not like determining that on October 2, 1998, Danny Shelton sold his house for $135,000, a house he paid $6,139 for just one week before. That's a matter of public record and is an objective fact. But I suspect we are talking about something subjective here, and would like to hear more from you regarding the criteria you use.
I am only posting links to part of the Sabbath hours posts they have made on the 3abn Forums.
When you reply to my earlier question, make sure that you have your facts straight. Some of those links are to posts that were not made on Sabbath.
Anything, absolutely anything wrong with discussions of moral terpitude on the Sabbath? Not for me!
Anybody have a problem discussing Abraham\David moral terpitude on the Sabbath? Anybody care to take the Sabbath School Quarterly editors to task if you do?
I see you don’t want to address the specific point I made in regard to Pastor Phipps. Let me try again. I maintain that the focus on Pastor Phipps by yourself and SDAMinister (smile) is solely because you feel that it somehow bolsters your case against 3ABN. Your ill conceived attack on him is just another example of the ends justifies the means mentality. You are attempting to sully his reputation. I seriously doubt that it is going to work out the way you had hoped.
I won't be specifically replying to your earlier question as I believe that one's manner of observing the Sabbath is between themselves and God.
I would only wonder if you, GAJ, Jesus, and let's include EGW, were to sit around a Sabbath table, would you say the same things?
I endeavored to link to posts that would have fallen within the Sabbath hours. If my calculations, using the Adventtalk time zone in relation to the member's time listed in your profiles, were incorrect, I apologize and would expect you to point out the links that were made in error.
irspro posted:QuoteAnything, absolutely anything wrong with discussions of moral terpitude on the Sabbath? Not for me!
Anybody have a problem discussing Abraham\David moral terpitude on the Sabbath? Anybody care to take the Sabbath School Quarterly editors to task if you do?
irspro, how does discussing the alleged moral terpitude of fellow sinners and throwing caustic word darts at fellow forum members honor the Creator of this world and elevate one's focus to Him? The lessons that can be learned from the departure of God's way by those Biblical men of old is clear. Their departure was proven and clearly described by the Spirit behind the written words of the OT. The alleged moral terpitude you reference that is being discussed here has not been proven.
I think you somewhat evaded the issue, in part due to my lack of clarity.
Danny Shelton divorced Linda without biblical grounds, as he himself in essence admitted. Seventh-day Adventists have a right to express their concerns over that in public and private, without fear of Danny retaliating by suing them.
[Bob, you well know that I hold the position that Linda Sheltion did not give Danny Shelton what a conservative SDA would consider to be Biblical grounds for a divorce. However, SDAs do not agree on what constitutes Biblical grounds. This is not a firmly settled item of SDA belief. You talk about the rights that SDAs have to discuss this in public. Your reference a civil right which is defined by law. If you were to go to the Bible, you would find that the Biblical right to discuss the alleged sins of others is clearly constrained and in no place is a Biblical right given to discuss those sins in a forum open to the public at large. It is only due to the fact that we live in the U.S. which has granted its citizens civil rights that you can claim a right to discuss this issue in a forum open to the public at large. Your civil right to do such is NOT unlimited. It is constrained within bounds. Anyone who carries on a discussion of such outside of those bounds places themselves in a posiiton of reeping the civil penalities of doing so. A public discussion of these alligations can not claim a religious liberty right that does not exist under the law--GM.]
According to the information given by Walt Thompson, Danny covered up the child molestation allegations against Tommy Shelton. Seventh-day Adventists have a right to express their concerns over that in public and private, without fear of Danny retaliating by suing them.
[Bob, my comment above applies to this paragraph, with the addition that some aspects of this issue fall in the venue of the civil courts and not a church court--GM.]
To keep it simple, let's just take the above two issues. Since the above two issues are, to my knowledge, not disputed, the lawsuit in essence is an attempt to prevent one's exercise of one's constitutional rights to free speech and freedom of religion.
[Bob, neither the Constitution of the U.S. give one the right to discuss these issues outside of the bounds that have been established and to remain free of civil punishment. Yes, I will grant you that the courts have ruled that freedom of speech prevents prior censorship. But, the courts have also ruled that that same freedom to speak does not prevent one from civil judgements against them in circumstances where they went outsied of the permissable bounds. In other words Bob, say what you want to as you have the freedom to do so and if you violate the bounds freely accept judgements against you for defiamination of character and libel. That is the price that society says you must pay if you violate the bounds--GM.]
Of course, this is the U.S., and folks file frivolous, unconstitutional lawsuits all the time. Folks also fire Seventh-day Adventists for refusing to work on the Sabbath. Doesn't make it right. And our religious liberty leaders, including Wintley, have opposed such discrimination against Adventists.
[Yes, it is true that folks may file frivolous lawsuits and when they do so there are typically laws that will impose judgements upon them. For that reason, many attornies refuse to take what is a frivolous lawsuit. Now in the case in which 3-ABN and Danny have filed a lawsuit against you, there is nothing frivolous about it. The alligations that you have raised against 3-ABN and Danny are clearly not frivolous. They are grave and serious. As 3-ABN and Danny dispute the public alligations they have a civil right to have a civil court try the case. You can defend yourself and they can attemt to prove their case. Further, the case filed by 3-ABN and Danny involves copyright and trademark issues. Those issues are clearly not frivolous. It is possible that the decisions made my the courts in this case may be seminal and establish case law that is applied to other cases. As these issues invoved esoteric apects of statute and case law there is no where else to try them other than in a civil court--GM.]
I think it's about time for Wintley's voice to be heard loud and clear in opposition to unbiblical divorce, child molestation, the cover up of child molestation allegations, and the continuation of a frivolous lawsuit intended to restrict free speech concerning serious issues. By doing so Wintley will make it crystal clear where he stands on these important issues.
[Bob, you do not know what he is doing privately as a member of the 3-ABN Board. As to lending his voice to a public outcry, perhaps he can be more effective by being private and is that not what you have advocated on some levels--going to the Board and to church institutions. If he were doing this privately would you criticize him for not being public. He is not required to take the kind of a public stand that you seem to want him to take--GM.]
Bob:
I am going to repspond to you by putting my comments in brackets [ ] with my initials--GM.
The lawsuit does not include a count over copyright issues...
Their claims of defamatory/malicious/despicable/baseless/prurient/inflammatory/unjustified statements are stated on pages two and three.
I won't be specifically replying to your earlier question as I believe that one's manner of observing the Sabbath is between themselves and God.
I won't be specifically replying to your earlier question as I believe that one's manner of observing the Sabbath is between themselves and God.
The perspective that "one's manner of observing the Sabbath is between themselves [sic!] and God" applies to those who do not consider the Bible as their rule of faith and conduct. Those who hold the Bible as the Word of God know that God has provided clear and detailed guidelines about Sabbath observance.
Do you speak on the Sabbath, or stop talking at the sunset? Do you know that SDA church members participate in the Sabbath School on-line? Attempts to find something wrong with posting in a forum on the Sabbath indicate lack of maturity.
As an ordained SDA minister, Wintley Augustus Phipps showed serious lack of spiritual discernment and very poor judgement when he allowed unbelievers to handle what was supposed to be a faith concert. He dishonored God and cast a shadow on the SDA practice of Sabbath observance. His actions cannot be excused whether they are linked with 3ABN or not. He should resign as a pastor, or his pastoral credentials should be withdrawn.
Eduard
The lawsuit does not include a count over copyright issues...
No doubt this has been expained before, but which is it...the lawsuit does or does not reference copyright issues?
And if it doesn't, why is Gregory stating that it does?
The Infringing Website also contains an unauthorized embedded copy of a copyrighted 3ABN broadcast, which visitors can either launch and watch while on the Infringing Website or duplicate by copying the program, via electronic download, from the Infringing Website.
Further, the case filed by 3-ABN and Danny involves copyright and trademark issues. Those issues are clearly not frivolous.
Gregory isn't making sense on these various points.
First of all, copyright is not a count in the lawsuit's complaint, and anyone reading it can see that.
The lawsuit does not include a count over copyright issues...
No doubt this has been expained before, but which is it...the lawsuit does or does not reference copyright issues?
And if it doesn't, why is Gregory stating that it does?
Here is what the actual lawsuit says on page 8, # 30:QuoteThe Infringing Website also contains an unauthorized embedded copy of a copyrighted 3ABN broadcast, which visitors can either launch and watch while on the Infringing Website or duplicate by copying the program, via electronic download, from the Infringing Website.
Bob has correctly told us (I am not quoting him directly) that the lawsuit does not contain a numbered count related to copyright. I never said that it did. I stated that the issues involved in the lawsuit were related to copyright as well as others. My substantation for that is given above. The issue of copyright is mentioned in the formal filing of the lawsuit even though it is not a numbered count.
I won't be specifically replying to your earlier question as I believe that one's manner of observing the Sabbath is between themselves and God.
The perspective that "one's manner of observing the Sabbath is between themselves [sic!] and God" applies to those who do not consider the Bible as their rule of faith and conduct. Those who hold the Bible as the Word of God know that God has provided clear and detailed guidelines about Sabbath observance.
Do you speak on the Sabbath, or stop talking at the sunset? Do you know that SDA church members participate in the Sabbath School on-line? Attempts to find something wrong with posting in a forum on the Sabbath indicate lack of maturity.
As an ordained SDA minister, Wintley Augustus Phipps showed serious lack of spiritual discernment and very poor judgement when he allowed unbelievers to handle what was supposed to be a faith concert. He dishonored God and cast a shadow on the SDA practice of Sabbath observance. His actions cannot be excused whether they are linked with 3ABN or not. He should resign as a pastor, or his pastoral credentials should be withdrawn.
Eduard
Until you can present documentation that proves Wintley Phipps was one of the organizers of this event, I believe it would be prudent to describe him as a presenter or performer at this event, and not the one "holding" it.GrandmaNettie,
However, I happen to agree with the premise that Sabbath observance is defined on a personal level between an individual and God.Better yet, why don't you contact your own church pastor (if you aren't one) or one of the elders. Ask them if the Bible (or if I may add, the Spirit of Prophecy) has any info whatsoever on Sabbath observance.
Having said that, I would appreciate it if you would post the "clear and detailed guidelines about Sabbath observance" found in the Bible. I believe it would greatly enhance this discussion to have them clearly stated here in black and white.
Until you can present documentation that proves Wintley Phipps was one of the organizers of this event, I believe it would be prudent to describe him as a presenter or performer at this event, and not the one "holding" it.GrandmaNettie,
Now you're boxing Elder Phipps even further into the corner. Go easy on the guy! Calling him just a presenter or performer moves him into the category of being "willingly ignorant" 2 Peter 3:5. Imagine, an SDA pastor ignorant of business conducted on the Sabbath on his behalf? And yes, this was a business transaction. When you donate to a charity they send you a receipt which says roughly "The donor received no goods, services, or material benefit from this donation". Here, you buy a ticket which is a promise to receive a service. They sell a ticket and provide said service. The ticket purchased a service--a concert. What the seller did with the proceeds is irrelevant as far as the fourth commandment is concerned.
And as far as him not being one of the organizers, Elder Phipps dictated to Fergus Falls when he had an open date and could come, not the other way around. Sounds like organizing to me!
And I'm still waiting for an explanation from somebody why Elder Phipps Sabbath concert was not one of the freewill offering type, like the one he held Sabbath, July 26 at Sligo SDA church? That small change and we would not be having this conversation.
SDAminister
Isn't it time to close this thread. I am sick of it.
Until you can present documentation that proves Wintley Phipps was one of the organizers of this event, I believe it would be prudent to describe him as a presenter or performer at this event, and not the one "holding" it.GrandmaNettie,
Now you're boxing Elder Phipps even further into the corner. Go easy on the guy! Calling him just a presenter or performer moves him into the category of being "willingly ignorant" 2 Peter 3:5. Imagine, an SDA pastor ignorant of business conducted on the Sabbath on his behalf? And yes, this was a business transaction. When you donate to a charity they send you a receipt which says roughly "The donor received no goods, services, or material benefit from this donation". Here, you buy a ticket which is a promise to receive a service. They sell a ticket and provide said service. The ticket purchased a service--a concert. What the seller did with the proceeds is irrelevant as far as the fourth commandment is concerned.
And as far as him not being one of the organizers, Elder Phipps dictated to Fergus Falls when he had an open date and could come, not the other way around. Sounds like organizing to me!
And I'm still waiting for an explanation from somebody why Elder Phipps Sabbath concert was not one of the freewill offering type, like the one he held Sabbath, July 26 at Sligo SDA church? That small change and we would not be having this conversation.
SDAminister
This past Sabbath day . . . did you turn on the lights, make toast, oatmeal, shower, use the telephone, drive to church, sleep well because you
knew the police and fire departments were on watch . . . did you turn on the computer and read AT thereby using the electric company and your ISP?
If you did then you required people to work on the Sabbath day and essentially employed them to do so. That would seem to indicate that you were in clear violation of the 4th Commandment. If you did these things you employed the electric company, telephone company, municipal water utilities (also if you flushed the toilet), ISP, police and fire departments - just to name a few.
And, as far as why this conversation is taking place . . . well, you started it . . . people disagree with you - that is why it is being talked about.
If you want a possible good feeling:
http://www.usdreamacademy.org/usdreamnews.html
Until you can present documentation that proves Wintley Phipps was one of the organizers of this event, I believe it would be prudent to describe him as a presenter or performer at this event, and not the one "holding" it.GrandmaNettie,
Now you're boxing Elder Phipps even further into the corner. Go easy on the guy! Calling him just a presenter or performer moves him into the category of being "willingly ignorant" 2 Peter 3:5. Imagine, an SDA pastor ignorant of business conducted on the Sabbath on his behalf? And yes, this was a business transaction. When you donate to a charity they send you a receipt which says roughly "The donor received no goods, services, or material benefit from this donation". Here, you buy a ticket which is a promise to receive a service. They sell a ticket and provide said service. The ticket purchased a service--a concert. What the seller did with the proceeds is irrelevant as far as the fourth commandment is concerned.
And as far as him not being one of the organizers, Elder Phipps dictated to Fergus Falls when he had an open date and could come, not the other way around. Sounds like organizing to me!
And I'm still waiting for an explanation from somebody why Elder Phipps Sabbath concert was not one of the freewill offering type, like the one he held Sabbath, July 26 at Sligo SDA church? That small change and we would not be having this conversation.
SDAminister
Until you can present documentation that proves Wintley Phipps was one of the organizers of this event, I believe it would be prudent to describe him as a presenter or performer at this event, and not the one "holding" it.GrandmaNettie,
Now you're boxing Elder Phipps even further into the corner. Go easy on the guy! Calling him just a presenter or performer moves him into the category of being "willingly ignorant" 2 Peter 3:5. Imagine, an SDA pastor ignorant of business conducted on the Sabbath on his behalf? And yes, this was a business transaction. When you donate to a charity they send you a receipt which says roughly "The donor received no goods, services, or material benefit from this donation". Here, you buy a ticket which is a promise to receive a service. They sell a ticket and provide said service. The ticket purchased a service--a concert. What the seller did with the proceeds is irrelevant as far as the fourth commandment is concerned.
And as far as him not being one of the organizers, Elder Phipps dictated to Fergus Falls when he had an open date and could come, not the other way around. Sounds like organizing to me!
And I'm still waiting for an explanation from somebody why Elder Phipps Sabbath concert was not one of the freewill offering type, like the one he held Sabbath, July 26 at Sligo SDA church? That small change and we would not be having this conversation.
SDAminister
Why wait for an explanation from anybody? Why not practice the biblical method of going to your brother if you have ought? That would mean contacting Pastor Phipps by phone, email, snail mail, your choice. Talking to anyone else is nothing but gossip and speculation. Try going to the source for a change.
Bob:
I am not going to get into a point by point arguement with you. Those reading this thread will read my comments and your response and decide for themselves who is accurate.
I could respond from the civil filing that began the lawsuit. However, as you well know the 3-ABN law firm mailed January 30, 2007 a three page letter in which they laid out the basis of their charges. They made very clear claims of copyright AND trademark issues on pages one and two. Their claims of defamatory/malicious/despicable/baseless/prurient/inflammatory/unjustified statements are stated on pages two and three.
That letter laid out in summation what became the legal filing for what began the lawsuit.
Yes, I am aware that the above letter was addressed to Gailon and not to you. I am also aware that while both you and Gailon were named as defendents in the lawsuit one can not say that each of you were charged with doing everything that was mentioned in the lawsuit. Therefore, I might have stated it better in my post above.
Let it be said that while the lawsuit names both Gailona and Bob as defendents, I do not claim that each is charged in the lawsuit with everything. The charges, so to speak, are lumped into one set of charges, and the two individuals (Bob and Gailon) may not be charged with exactly the same thing.
Regardless of that the issues involved copyright, trademarks and defamatory statements.
Thank you, Bob, for allowing me to clairfy.
Why wait for an explanation from anybody? Why not practice the biblical method of going to your brother if you have ought? That would mean contacting Pastor Phipps by phone, email, snail mail, your choice. Talking to anyone else is nothing but gossip and speculation. Try going to the source for a change.
"Traveling on the Sabbath
"If we desire the blessing promised to the obedient, we must observe the Sabbath more strictly. I fear that we often travel on this day when it might be avoided. In harmony with the light which the Lord has given in regard to the observance of the Sabbath, we should be more careful about traveling on the boats or cars on this day. In these matters we should set a right example before our children and youth. In order to reach the churches that need our help, and to give them the message that God desires them to hear, it may be necessary for us to travel on the Sabbath; but so far as possible we should secure our tickets and make all necessary arrangements on some other day. When starting on a journey we should make every possible effort to plan so as to avoid reaching our destination on the Sabbath" (6T 359, 360)
Bob, this is an interesting EGW quote for you to bring up in this particular thread. Perhaps SDAminister hadn't run across this one in his studies before he started this thread to regretfully try to sully the reputation of Pastor Wintley Phipps due to his seat on the 3abn BOD.GrandmaNettie,
...and perhaps SDAminister had run across this one in his studies.
Let's reestablish a few facts:
-Elder Phipps was not traveling to an SDA church to give a Sabbath message
So? It would make it all better if his destination was an SDA church? The quote that Bob used as supporting material for his argument stated "in order to reach the churches that need our help". It did not specify SDA churches.-The purpose of Elder Phipps trip was to raise money for his business/charity---US Dream Academy. See the motive? Not Sabbath truth, but money for Dream Academy.
US Dream Academy is his ministry. The man who organized the fundraiser did so to raise and donate the funds to Wintley Phipps' ministry. God's message to this world is not only "Sabbath truth", it is everlasting life for those who believe in Him. See John 3.-Since Elder Phipps has stated, according to others on this forum, that he is a full time employee of the Dream Academy, why didn't he travel to his destination on the Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, or Friday preceding his concert? You know, the days of the week that he works for the Dream Academy. As you so eloquently quoted, "When starting on a journey we should make every possible effort to plan so as to avoid reaching our destination on the Sabbath". Elder Phipps appears to have failed to do what you suggested he do. Instead, he skipped the service at his own church Sabbath morning and took a mid-day Sabbath flight across country to perform at a for-profit concert.
SDAminister
Few will buy your feeble attempt to attribute the words of the EGW statement from Bob's post as me suggesting anything to Pastor Wintley Phipps. I'm certain that some will be flattered that you tried, though.
You might want to check with an accountant to determine if that event was actually a "for-profit concert" or if, perhaps, you have mispoken.
I believe you have just expressed an ecumenical view grandma. You lean any further left and we will have to get you a crutch just to calzl you a Seventh-day Adventist!!!
Do you need studies on being a Seventh-day Adventist or do you also subscribe to the premise that we all can be saved in our sins and therefore it makes no difference what we believe as long as we believe on the Name Jesus Christ?
I think we already had that battle with Elder Ford, et al? I know Glacier View is held in low esteam on the "LEFT COAST" but never the less, it has soundly defined the doctrine of the Seventh-day Adventist Church. All others are not Seventh-day Adventist doctrine and represent apostacy, a sign of the times, I suppose.
Gailon Arthur Joy
I believe you have just expressed an ecumenical view grandma. You lean any further left and we will have to get you a crutch just to calzl you a Seventh-day Adventist!!!
Do you need studies on being a Seventh-day Adventist or do you also subscribe to the premise that we all can be saved in our sins and therefore it makes no difference what we believe as long as we believe on the Name Jesus Christ?
I think we already had that battle with Elder Ford, et al? I know Glacier View is held in low esteam on the "LEFT COAST" but never the less, it has soundly defined the doctrine of the Seventh-day Adventist Church. All others are not Seventh-day Adventist doctrine and represent apostacy, a sign of the times, I suppose.
Gailon Arthur Joy
"Traveling on the Sabbath
"If we desire the blessing promised to the obedient, we must observe the Sabbath more strictly. I fear that we often travel on this day when it might be avoided. In harmony with the light which the Lord has given in regard to the observance of the Sabbath, we should be more careful about traveling on the boats or cars on this day. In these matters we should set a right example before our children and youth. In order to reach the churches that need our help, and to give them the message that God desires them to hear, it may be necessary for us to travel on the Sabbath; but so far as possible we should secure our tickets and make all necessary arrangements on some other day. When starting on a journey we should make every possible effort to plan so as to avoid reaching our destination on the Sabbath" (6T 359, 360)
Bob, this is an interesting EGW quote for you to bring up in this particular thread. Perhaps SDAminister hadn't run across this one in his studies before he started this thread to regretfully try to sully the reputation of Pastor Wintley Phipps due to his seat on the 3abn BOD.GrandmaNettie,
...and perhaps SDAminister had run across this one in his studies.
Let's reestablish a few facts:
-Elder Phipps was not traveling to an SDA church to give a Sabbath message
So? It would make it all better if his destination was an SDA church? The quote that Bob used as supporting material for his argument stated "in order to reach the churches that need our help". It did not specify SDA churches.-The purpose of Elder Phipps trip was to raise money for his business/charity---US Dream Academy. See the motive? Not Sabbath truth, but money for Dream Academy.
US Dream Academy is his ministry. The man who organized the fundraiser did so to raise and donate the funds to Wintley Phipps' ministry. God's message to this world is not only "Sabbath truth", it is everlasting life for those who believe in Him. See John 3.-Since Elder Phipps has stated, according to others on this forum, that he is a full time employee of the Dream Academy, why didn't he travel to his destination on the Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, or Friday preceding his concert? You know, the days of the week that he works for the Dream Academy. As you so eloquently quoted, "When starting on a journey we should make every possible effort to plan so as to avoid reaching our destination on the Sabbath". Elder Phipps appears to have failed to do what you suggested he do. Instead, he skipped the service at his own church Sabbath morning and took a mid-day Sabbath flight across country to perform at a for-profit concert.
SDAminister
Few will buy your feeble attempt to attribute the words of the EGW statement from Bob's post as me suggesting anything to Pastor Wintley Phipps. I'm certain that some will be flattered that you tried, though.
You might want to check with an accountant to determine if that event was actually a "for-profit concert" or if, perhaps, you have mispoken.
I believe you have just expressed an ecumenical view grandma. You lean any further left and we will have to get you a crutch just to calzl you a Seventh-day Adventist!!!
Do you need studies on being a Seventh-day Adventist or do you also subscribe to the premise that we all can be saved in our sins and therefore it makes no difference what we believe as long as we believe on the Name Jesus Christ?
I think we already had that battle with Elder Ford, et al? I know Glacier View is held in low esteam on the "LEFT COAST" but never the less, it has soundly defined the doctrine of the Seventh-day Adventist Church. All others are not Seventh-day Adventist doctrine and represent apostacy, a sign of the times, I suppose.
Gailon Arthur Joy
QuoteSome things cannot be explained away by you only have partial facts. Try as you will, the horse situation still smells to high heaven as does ebay. Those of you here and elsewhere that have tried to explain DS dealings have not even come close to the bar.
Having done both types of business you have not been convincing,only shown what you accuse others of. Partial facts
Bonnie, Here is an opportunity for you to go straight to Danny Shelton for the truth about the horses:
Having an interview with Danny on the first Friday evening in
September...
http://adventistforum.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/forums/306/1
All questions are invited, but asking people not to duplicate what
someone else has, not flood him with a zillion question in one post.
Bonnie, Here is an opportunity for you to go straight to Danny Shelton for the truth about the horses:
Having an interview with Danny on the first Friday evening in
September...
http://adventistforum.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/forums/306/1
All questions are invited, but asking people not to duplicate what
someone else has, not flood him with a zillion question in one post.
Donna, what makes you think Danny will tell the truth?
Donna, what makes you think Danny will tell the truth?
Sister, why would he not? All the 3ABN employees, BOD, family members, friends, neighbors, community members, feed store employees, veterinarian, etc. would all know if what he answers is truth or not.
Donna, what makes you think Danny will tell the truth?
Sister, why would he not? All the 3ABN employees, BOD, family members, friends, neighbors, community members, feed store employees, veterinarian, etc. would all know if what he answers is truth or not.
Maybe someone will ask about ebay. Small detail, but if you lie about the small,you certainly will lie about other bigger issues. You can twist it, pull it, stretch it,but it remains what it is
Bonnie, I am somewhat like you in one respect. I will not just take anyones word, no matter who they are. Where we may differ is that I then prayerfully search out what the truth is with an open mind.
I do not allow myself preconceived ideas as to whether or not what I am told does or does not make sense to me nor what experience I have had with a subject or person before. With people I may be more cautious but still give the benefit of the doubt. Most of us have learned or hopefully learn that truth is sometimes stranger than fiction and so we cannot rely upon our own minds and reasoning. You see it does not matter if we are right or wrong. What matters is the truth.
so we cannot rely upon our own minds and reasoningEnlighten me here, whose mind and reasoning should I accept.
Bonnie, I am somewhat like you in one respect. I will not just take anyones word, no matter who they are. Where we may differ is that I then prayerfully search out what the truth is with an open mind. I do not allow myself preconceived ideas as to whether or not what I am told does or does not make sense to me nor what experience
With people I may be more cautious but still give the benefit of the doubt.
Bonnie, a lot of problems and misunderstandings stem not so much in what a person has said as much as how the other person chooses to take it.
Kind of interesting watching which christian side can come with the most creative "christian put-downs"
Kind of interesting watching which christian side can come with the most creative "christian put-downs"
Now THAT sounds like an excellent topic for both discussion and creative examples!
Donna, what makes you think Danny will tell the truth?
Sister, why would he not? All the 3ABN employees, BOD, family members, friends, neighbors, community members, feed store employees, veterinarian, etc. would all know if what he answers is truth or not.
Bonnie, I am somewhat like you in one respect. I will not just take anyones word, no matter who they are. Where we may differ is that I then prayerfully search out what the truth is with an open mind.
What??? I had to read this twice and then again to actually believe what I was seeing.
I cannot believe someone would actually post something like this on a public forum.
I hope you don't get hurt when you fall off that very tall pedestal you have put yourself on.
Bonnie, I am somewhat like you in one respect. I will not just take anyones word, no matter who they are. Where we may differ is that I then prayerfully search out what the truth is with an open mind.
A blessing of $7,900.00+ in the market today while avoiding looking down my nose at my fellow man as some. I only invest in morally acceptable business with good internal control where hand-picking hasn't gotten them in trouble!
Many recombinant medications nowdays contain unclean animal matter!
A blessing of $7,900.00+ in the market today while avoiding looking down my nose at my fellow man as some. I only invest in morally acceptable business with good internal control where hand-picking hasn't gotten them in trouble!
Many recombinant medications nowdays contain unclean animal matter!
Sister, why would he not? All the 3ABN employees, BOD, family members, friends, neighbors, community members, feed store employees, veterinarian, etc. would all know if what he answers is truth or not.
Another very suspect story is the one on ebay. You simply cannot deny that someone from the 3ABN camp is lying.
You may poo-hoo Fran's facts on this but you can do a search and backtrack on this topic.
There is no way that can be misunderstood. The new name on search leads right back to where Tammy says it doesn't.
Donna, what makes you think Danny will tell the truth?
Sister, why would he not? All the 3ABN employees, BOD, family members, friends, neighbors, community members, feed store employees, veterinarian, etc. would all know if what he answers is truth or not.
Fran has repeatedly claimed that she received a tax-deductible receipt for items she purchased on eBay, a receipt that didn't list those items as would be required. I can now say that she appears to be correct in that claim.
Donna, I see that both Snoopy and Bonnie did a fine job of answering this question. No need for further comment from me.
Donna, I see that both Snoopy and Bonnie did a fine job of answering this question. No need for further comment from me.
Yet here you are commenting . . .
Maybe this is why it is getting increasingly difficult to believe the main players in this sick mess are doing so out of christian motives.A 19th century German philosopher who was surrounded by the God fearing Christians of his time made the observation that "the last Christian died on the cross."