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[Jise]

Illicitness and illicit behavior have become the currency of some societies that form the belt where in there is a high preponderance of HIV/AIDS fueled by breaking God's 10 commandments.

Is it fair or right when a Campus Director in the SDA Church who supports the concept of illicitness and immorality -advocates for Church members and others to uncritically give AID to countries wherein most of the citizenry including church members support this concept of immorality and illiticit behavior that fuels such epidemics as HIV/AIDS?  Is such mission AID only fueling a lack of accountability?

[Murcielago]

I suppose one would have to look to the example and mandate of Jesus for an answer to that one. Did he only care for those who were paragons of moral virtue, or did he also provide help and healing to sinners? On the other hand, I see and understand the conundrum.

[Jise]

In some of the countries that have the highest HIV/AIDS rates - HIV/AIDS is fueled by a lifestyle of promiscuity, much of which is open, but alot of which is "hidden".  In such societies it is frequent to hear and read of school girls -being raped by male teachers -at epidemic levels.  These societies are highly patriarchal.  Women are routinely blamed for the immorality in the countries - in terms of their dress and how this defrauds.  Yet, these same societies applaud their own men - who are promiscous - and seek in secret to rape school girls, or have illicit affairs with honorable, and virtuous women in secret - there is no talk in these societies of the men defrauding the women.

When Campus Directors in the SDA church applaud this kind of behavior and seek to defend the males engaged in this sort of behavior that fuels HIV/AIDS and yet go on mission trips advocatinng for an uncritical giving of Church funds to these countries even when many of the people and church members from these countries are unrepentent in their attitudes and behaviors in terms  of purity, I believe this is encouraging a lack of accountability.  

There are whole SDA conferences that applaud the notion of illicitness and secrecy and promiscuity, and have use this in attempts to perpetuate their own biases and prejudices towards certain cultures and  genders  - even on things that they have no first hand knowledge about.  However, Ellen White states that these interactions are dishonest by their very nature.

[Little Grasshopper]

I'm not sure there should be a focus exclusively on HIV.  I know a women in the United States who received a sexually transmitted disease from her boyfriend.  I believe it was syphilis.  She very nearly died because it never occurred to her that a nice, religious man would give her something that could kill her.  Therefore, it went untreated for too long.  (Syphilis can be fatal if not treated.)  In 2009, the top ten states for syphilis were: 

1.  Louisiana
2.  Georgia
3.  Arkansas
4.  Alabama
5.  Mississippi
6.  Texas
7.  Tennessee
8.  North Carolina
9.  New York
10. Illinois

I think all the other equally dangerous diseases that could cause my own private parts to rot away should also be considered.  If I had such a disease, the only question I would need to ask myself is, "Do I want someone somewhere in the world to help me?"  If the answer is "Yes,"  then I know how to treat all others who might be experiencing health problems of their own.

[Bob Pickle]

When Campus Directors in the SDA church applaud this kind of behavior and seek to defend the males engaged in this sort of behavior that fuels HIV/AIDS ....

Please provide a statement which can be interpreted as applause of such behavior.

[Jise]

Bob Pickle:  Well the statements and actions would be a campus director defending such a person in their actions, writing a book, which insinuates support for this person's actions, even when the Director has no first hand knowledge of anything - also support would mean continuing to do mission trips with said person.

Part of accountability is that you hold persons accountable for immoral behaviors - when persons commit immoral behaviors and attempt to do so illicitly - in secret- outside the view of witnnesses, it is wrong for a campus director to jump to this person's side and defend said person when this campus director was not even there.  This is giving wind and fuel to dishonesty- and EGW even stated so.

[Jise]

Little Grasshopper - but how can you help people with health problems of their own, if these very people support the very behaviors that fuel them?  I think giving mission AID to persons who support fornication, etc. - is rewarding this immoral behavior.

It's like giving money for HIV retrovirals never solves the problem of ending HIV/AIDS spread by fornication.

[tinka]

For one thing they will never be able to use the excuse that a hand had not reached out to them in the day of judgement.  and yet some will say do not cast your Pearl's before the swing as we are instructed. Some still may not be educated enough to understand and so many more reasons. But it is now evident --you need to know how to steward the Lords money in the hands of "intentional" corruption when you see it.

[Jise]

Thank you, Tinka for your statement.

Author William Norman Grigg is reported to have stated at the following link that " Corruption becomes a mechanism by which Third World societies function.”  http://beforeitsnews.com/story/325/826/Immigration:_Americas_engineered_decline.html

The link further states:  "Look around you as it pours into America. Corruption operates at the highest levels in America. It operates because 90 percent of senators and congressmen keep being elected by a trusting public."

My question is - in relation to this topic at hand - is this also true for the Church - in terms of "corruption" and what's acceptable and what's not acceptable as far as morality and immorality goes?

[tinka]

This is why we have a last day message that individuals can trust if they believe in a last day messenger. The church as an organization I don't believe will ever be saved as a whole, but only the church as individuals.(the people themselves will enter the gates that keep the commandments of God) although we are known for the remnant that believes in a foundation that has been culminated by inspiration of the highest court. Not everyone will abide but be "justifiers of their own ways and means." We can only help the organized church as long as God sees fit for the organization to stand that we are able to plant the seeds and fellowship. But as individuals are given the chance to  know and see--then what we do with it once we behold it is another fact. It is plain that only a few will come to stand . I know the feeling as I see all the giving up of the foundations right before my eyes too on TV. It is more likely that outside religions that grasp it right at the end will be the ones that come to forefront. I definitely have spoken out against all this baloney that goes on but according to EGW that is what to expect at the last. Most evident we are in the last!! So all we can do is our best with individuals on individual basis.  But the SDA foundation and messenger of the last day message of the 3rd angel is my belief.  It was very very disheartening when I discovered the corruption within 3abn when all my family contributed. It surely makes one speak out.  after all we have been given a mind of discernment. But I do not believe in starting another remnant church either as some do. It is against what "inspiration" has stated for making non errors and wrong roads to travel.

[Bob Pickle]

Bob Pickle:  Well the statements and actions would be a campus director defending such a person in their actions, writing a book, which insinuates support for this person's actions, even when the Director has no first hand knowledge of anything - also support would mean continuing to do mission trips with said person.

Part of accountability is that you hold persons accountable for immoral behaviors - when persons commit immoral behaviors and attempt to do so illicitly - in secret- outside the view of witnnesses, it is wrong for a campus director to jump to this person's side and defend said person when this campus director was not even there.  This is giving wind and fuel to dishonesty- and EGW even stated so.

You still have failed to produce a statement supporting your very serious allegation. Either produce the statement, or quit making the allegation, please.

"Campus director." There are lots and lots of people working on various types of campuses all over the world. By being so vague you are in essence slandering many good people working on many good campuses, and that is inappropriate, as well as irresponsible.

[princessdi]

So Jise?  What are you talking about?  I'm as confused as confused can be.

[Jise]

Bob Pickle: I choose to keep it general -to avoid the impression of revealing identities and of slandering.  I'm really talking about  a self righteous hypocritical "campus" leader, often affiliated with the conservative Adventist - and who seems to have a problem with contemporary worship methods among youth, estoll  himself as being "bible based", yet violates biblical principles when in doing mission work with SDAs who violate some of even the sound principles of EGW, and even the 10 commandments.

We have campus leaders who've criticized gospel music, advocated a "tribal" theology, yet have supported dishonesty, and and other violation of the 10 commandments.  I'm not talking of all campus leaders, but at least one of them.  You can tell he's quite evil if you look at the fact from land records that his property value has dropped by approximately $100,000 within 1 year. This is an indicator that God does not approve of this guy's evil. The guy supports oppression of certain races and genders - and he cloaks this in being anti-contemporary - in essence, he's really a tribalist.  This campus leader would have you think that the Pastors from Rwanda involved in Genocide are more so saints, than baptists of certain ethnic groups who listen to ethnic gospel music.

[Jise]

I find it interesting when a campus "leader" "based" in N. America, claims that he's against contemporary means of mission and worship and is bible based, yet he supports SDA Mission workers who've broken the 10 commandments, are currently in sin, are engaged in sins such as dishonesty, fornication, etc.  This campus leader is anti-contemporary because he really supports a historical period of time in which certani groups and genders - were oppressed as via the law of the land.  You'd be hard pressed to find this "leader" criticizing "trokosi" for example.  For him conservatism is really a cover for the fact that this guy is a tribalist and his ministry is one of tribalism - with him, it's a crime to be a certain ethnic group.  If you are a certain ethnic group, and commit sins and are unrepetentent - this leader being the false prophet he is- stands up for you - but if you are a certain ethnic group and gender, merely listening to Gospel music makes you a devil, even if you are a real "well meaning" christian who is honest, and obeys the 10 commandments. This leader is simply not of the same stature of persons that I've met in other churches. What drives this leader is that he wishes ill for others and feels ashamed of the fact that he simply is not on the level of others. This campus leader has also relied on and perpetuated lies about "liberals" and permissiveness when in fact, this campus "leader" is quite "permissive" and "loose" with biblical doctrine in that he associates with and approves of slanderers, fornicators, etc.  No wonder as according to land records, his house continues to drop in value. He will never "repay" his debts, because he's so evil...

[tinka]

Jice

Hmm, Sounds like you would like to have someone investigated and brought to light by the investigators. But evidently your the investigator and should bring out the records of truth. Have you went to GC about this or just Advent Talk? Not sure what that would do but like in gov. the people must come to the forefront if anything happens. Sort of like some of the people on here trying to get justice. You really have to stick your neck out when it comes to standing up for right as most like to "bed" easy street and no fuss or hide it. No one can do anything that is presented in documents that provide truth and that is not considered slander. Once truth is posted, then the people may see.