Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Battle Creek]

I can't remember if already stated it here or not, but I am aware of one Conference President who read both books and said the "Women in Ministry" one lacked substance, whereas the "Prove All Things" one had substance.  He was looking into the WO issue at that time and hadn't yet come to a conclusion back then. 

He has since come to a conclusion by saying  that he believes that the ordination of women, even as a local elder, isn't biblical, although in his experience two of his best elders while pastoring churches were women.

That post of yours is here on the same page where you also used the term "bite". The reply that was given then is that this is an argument we have heard before from people who use that argument against SDA because there is no "bite" in their preaching. That is because SDA do not threaten the sinner with eternal hell fire unless he repents.

Some claim that all the wild arguments used against the ordination of women is convincing more and more church member that they are using such arguments with bite in them to cover up their lack of solid arguments.

Elsewhere here you find the account of a Union President who was firmly against the ordination of women, until he retired and started reading his Bible. That convinced him he had been mistaken.

[Daryl Fawcett]

I found it.

I guess I have a short memory.

[Battle Creek]

I found it.

Deuteronomy 4:29
"But from there you will seek the LORD your God, and you will find Him if you seek Him with all your heart and with all your soul."

[Bob Pickle]

What NAD leaders made that request? On what basis did the ad hoc committee represent only one view? Did the NAD leaders intend for it to be that way?

That book, Prove All Things, is an interesting document. Even on the front page it claims to be a response to Women In Ministry. And it answers your questions right from the beginning. Since I can't copy from the book on the net I have to do it by memory.

It states that several Union Presidents from North America, who were dissatisfied with the GC votes, requested some of their friends at Andrews University to make a thorough study of how to present their views on the basis of Scripture, the SoP, and on the history of our church. It took them two and a half years to produce the book.

Now we know that it was the North American Division which requested a permission to ordain women within their area, even if other parts of the world were not prepared to do that. Does anyone imagine the NAD would make such a request unless they were fully convinced that they were doing this on solid Scriptural grounds?

If nothing else, they had all been delegates at the GC session where they heard Dr. Damsteegt's presentation, and they had most probably also read both his and other's arguments against their own, which they did not find his based on solid Scripture, and therefore they made their request to the GC, which was voted down.

Since they were already convinced in spite of hearing the arguments against it, would you think they should go to Dr. Damsteegt and his associates, requesting them to write down the arguments against their own views? So they asked those who agreed with them to write down their views to counteract what they considered a false presentation.

Dr. Damsteegt makes it clear that the basic "problem" is their different ways of interpreting Scripture, so he makes a comparison of the two methods used by the two views. Before commenting on that I'd like to mention what difference I have noticed in the writings of one of the authors, Samuel Koranteng Pipim. Already around 1920 the Seventh-day Adventist Church rejected the Biblical interpretation of the Christian Fundamentalists because it was not in agreement with EGW. I feel that Pipim is more liberal towards EGW and turns more back towards the fundamentalists which SDA rejected. I am way too much of a conservative to follow that line.

I did not notice Damsteegt going far into the Pipim line. He says he agrees with the basic EGW interpretation of Scripture, and he even goes partly along with WiM in following James White,  but here appears the difference which becomes so dramatically basic for Dr. Dam. He claims that another dimension must be inserted into the James White understanding. That, he claims, is the headship doctrine.

Now I have not been able to detect that headship doctrine anywhere within the SDA 28 fundamentals, so to me that doctrine seems to be borrowed from other religions or churches. I find that its adherents try to find texts to prove their points, but quite a few serious Bible students are not convinced.

Somehow that headship doctrine seems more in harmony with the teachings of some of the male Church leaders already in the 4th century who firmly believed that females were but second rate citizens.

Which union presidents made the request?

After the 1995 vote, I believe, I heard a union president take credit for Al McClure's rapid reassurance that the issue would not die. (At the time I really thought it strange for McClure to make the statements he did, as if I really wanted to see women ordained and was disappointed with the vote.) But I'm not sure that that union president had a reputation for a high view of Scripture and Adventist doctrines.

And that's part of the problem. Over and over again it has been liberals who have a low view of Scripture, who don't care about the three angels' messages and the SoP, who are perceived as pushing for women's ordination. Of course there are exceptions, I'm sure. But you refer to certain unnamed union presidents, which leads me to recall that conversation with a union president who may be one of the ones you are referring to, which in turn leads me back to the same perception that this is all part of some liberal agenda.

[Bob Pickle]

Battle Creek,

I would recommend that rather than merely asserting that James White (or other early Adventists) never taught "headship," that you instead document from early Adventist publications that he never taught such.

If you read through some of the earlier threads, I posted quite a few early articles. Some of these most definitely taught "headship."

One might then ask, Why have so many North American Adventists stopped teaching what our pioneers and early Adventists taught, despite those pioneers and early Adventists supporting their beliefs with clearly stated Scripture? The best answer I can see is that they have been influenced by popular cultural practices.

[Battle Creek]

Another book is now being used in this area. The Norwegian Union voted last week to have the book Priestly Ministry in the Old and the New Testament: Should Women be Ordained? (2012) by John Lorencin translated into Norwegian and sent to all members in this country.

The purpose is to let all Adventist in Norway know that ordaining women for the ministry is fully in accordance with Scripture, and be prepared to grant a full ordination to their female pastors latest by the end of 2015.

The Union also voted that in the meantime male ordained pastors can request of the union secretary that their status be changed to commissioned ministers - to show their solidarity with the female pastors. This way there will be no difference between men and women serving in the ministry even now.

John Lorencin served as a Union President of Yugoslavia when he was fully convinced that women should not be ordained in the Seventh-day Adventist Church. At his retirement he decided to study the question in his Bible, and then he came to the conclusion that his former conviction was shaped by the influence of the Roman Catholic Church, the Orthodox, and the Muslims, the three dominant religious bodies in his country, and had nothing to do with Scripture.

[Bob Pickle]

Amazing. So the union has voted to invite male ministers to surrender their ordination? That's something usually reserved for apostasy or church discipline.

For example, once a local elder is ordained, he is always ordained, unless he is disciplined or apostatizes.

[Battle Creek]

Commissioned ministers are also ordained, and their ordination permits them to do all that a regular minister does, as long as they are within their own conference - with the exception of organizing churches and serving as presidents. The ministers in Norway are not encouraged to reject their ordination, just to change their status as long as females are not permitted to have the status as regular ministers. There is no GC vote to prevent this.

The commissioned minister is a provision that has been voted by the GC in session, and applies to both men and women.

The ordination of an ordained elder is not valid unless he has been elected as a local elder. His ordination is valid as a deacon, if he is chosen as a deacon. In the same way the ordination as a minister is still valid if the  person goes a step down to serve as a commissioned minister.

[Daryl Fawcett]

I think it is foolish to do anything prior to the work of the study committee that has been formed and wait until their report has been presented to the 2014 Annual Council and then to the decision of the 2015 GC Session.

All that these Unions have done or are doing is a distraction that promotes disunity and rebellion over the process that has been set in motion by the GC.

[Bob Pickle]

A agree with Darryl.

Commissioned ministers are also ordained, and their ordination permits them to do all that a regular minister does, as long as they are within their own conference - with the exception of organizing churches and serving as presidents.

Could you provide a reference to something that says that commissioned ministers are in reality ordained ministers, i.e., ministers that have been ordained?

[Battle Creek]

I think it is foolish to do anything prior to the work of the study committee that has been formed and wait until their report has been presented to the 2014 Annual Council and then to the decision of the 2015 GC Session.

All that these Unions have done or are doing is a distraction that promotes disunity and rebellion over the process that has been set in motion by the GC.

I cannot see that the Norwegian Union has done anything that is not permitted by the present rules of the General Conference. They voted to wait until after the approval of ordination of women will take place at the General Conference in 2015 and also dealt with at the Annual Session following the GC session.

[Battle Creek]

A agree with Darryl.

Commissioned ministers are also ordained, and their ordination permits them to do all that a regular minister does, as long as they are within their own conference - with the exception of organizing churches and serving as presidents.

Could you provide a reference to something that says that commissioned ministers are in reality ordained ministers, i.e., ministers that have been ordained?

I cannot answer your question because this is not what I said. Read again what I did say. Then voice your question accordingly.

[Bob Pickle]

A agree with Darryl.

Commissioned ministers are also ordained, and their ordination permits them to do all that a regular minister does, as long as they are within their own conference - with the exception of organizing churches and serving as presidents.

Could you provide a reference to something that says that commissioned ministers are in reality ordained ministers, i.e., ministers that have been ordained?

I cannot answer your question because this is not what I said. Read again what I did say. Then voice your question accordingly.

Were you referring to a commissioned minister being ordained as a local church elder?

[Daryl Fawcett]

This isn't the case in all of those Unions though.

I think it is foolish to do anything prior to the work of the study committee that has been formed and wait until their report has been presented to the 2014 Annual Council and then to the decision of the 2015 GC Session.

All that these Unions have done or are doing is a distraction that promotes disunity and rebellion over the process that has been set in motion by the GC.

I cannot see that the Norwegian Union has done anything that is not permitted by the present rules of the General Conference. They voted to wait until after the approval of ordination of women will take place at the General Conference in 2015 and also dealt with at the Annual Session following the GC session.

[Battle Creek]

A agree with Darryl.

Commissioned ministers are also ordained, and their ordination permits them to do all that a regular minister does, as long as they are within their own conference - with the exception of organizing churches and serving as presidents.

Could you provide a reference to something that says that commissioned ministers are in reality ordained ministers, i.e., ministers that have been ordained?

I cannot answer your question because this is not what I said. Read again what I did say. Then voice your question accordingly.

Were you referring to a commissioned minister being ordained as a local church elder?

Here is what is claimed comes from the Church Manual voted at the 2010 GC session:

Ordained Pastors and Commissioned Pastors Compared
 Posted by Warren Trenchard

Some have asked about the differences in duties, responsibilities, and rights between ordained pastors and commissioned pastors. The following summary is derived from the Seventh-day Adventist Church Manual, 18th edition (2010). For perspective we have included a comparison to the ordained local elder for the related areas of responsibility.

Ordained pastors (limited to males)

    May conduct all rites and ceremonies
    May conduct communion
    May conduct baptism
    May administer marriage vows/declarations
    May preside at business meetings involving member discipline
    May ordain elders, deacons, and deaconesses
    May organize or unite churches
    May serve as conference presidents

Commissioned pastors (may include females)

    May conduct communion
    May administer marriage vows/declarations, if they are local elders
    [May serve as conference presidents (only in the North American and Trans-European Divisions by recent actions)]

Local elders (males and females)

    May conduct communion
    May conduct baptism, with permission of conference president
    May preside at business meetings involving member discipline, with permission of conference president