Theology of Ordination Study Committee

[horsethief]

I noticed Kevin Paulson made the group..he is a political animal and is known to be opposed to WO. My guess is that he was chasen for his political AND academic skills...in my honest opinion, he will bend his every effort to make sure WO is DOA in 2015!!!

The battle will be in the delegate counts long before the GC Session and Kevin is ACUTELY AWARE that it will be won or lost in the Delegate Selection Process!!!

I trust that IJN Akagi will expand his reach well beyond NPUC!!!

Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter

You have got to be kidding me?!  "Political animal" is an understatement. Don't get me wrong, I like how Kevin has openly confronted Danny Shelton. However, he is ruthless and uncompromising.

[Gailon Arthur Joy]

AND PROUD OF IT!!! Let's hope he sees this assessment...put Kevin and Pickle together and you have a FORMIDABLE FORCE!!!

GAJ

[Battle Creek]

When I was studying for the ministry many of our textbooks were by Mrs. White and we knew that here we had the Spirit of Prophecy. It was inspiring to meet with and talk to quite a few people back then who had not only met Mrs. White but lived with her. Our Bible teachers taught us how to understand the Bible and see how it supported the guidance of the Spirit of Prophecy in the end time movements and church.

In recent years people claiming to be saints have turned all of this upside down. Now the textual understanding used in the early days of our church to support the Spirit of Prophecy have lost their validity, generally for one purpose: to support the Roman Catholic doctrine of the male priesthood.

[Battle Creek]

Here is a new book that I find worth reading. It describes the development in the Seventh-day Adventist Church just the way I have experienced it in my lifetime.

<https://www.smashwords.com/extreader/read/433232/1/a-short-history-of-the-headship-doctrine-in-the-seventh-day-adventist-church#C5>

[Bob Pickle]

Here is a new book that I find worth reading. It describes the development in the Seventh-day Adventist Church just the way I have experienced it in my lifetime.

<https://www.smashwords.com/extreader/read/433232/1/a-short-history-of-the-headship-doctrine-in-the-seventh-day-adventist-church#C5>

Kirkpatrick's response to this document can be found at http://ordinationtruth.com/2014/05/06/kirkpatrick-response-to-chudleigh-on-headship-theology/

http://ordinationtruth.com/featured/homosexuality-or-christianity/ should also be a concern.

In recent years people claiming to be saints have turned all of this upside down. Now the textual understanding used in the early days of our church to support the Spirit of Prophecy have lost their validity, generally for one purpose: to support the Roman Catholic doctrine of the male priesthood.

In what specific way is recognizing as truth what Scripture says are the roles of men and women overturning anything we have taught in the past?

[Battle Creek]

You suggested I listen to this video and I'm glad I did. I happen to be about 10 years older than Gerry Chudleigh, and thus I have experienced everything just the way Gerry describes it. The face of Larry indicates that he belongs to a younger generation, the generation Gerry talks about. So, besides my own life experience, this video to me is a rather strong evidence that Gerry Chudleigh hits the nail on its head – and is just right.

What has so utterly blinded many "honest" pastors of the younger generation, is that back in the days when Ellen White and her writings were really appreciated, our Bible teachers taught us the true meaning of the sections in Scripture that our enemies used to discredit our Spirit of Prophecy. Now the Samuelle Bacchiocchi gang, following him like a guru, are re-interpreting those Bible texts because, as Adventists, they need Bible support for their views against the ordination of women. Personally I fear that what you are accomplishing is that eventually these same texts will again be used to undermine our understanding of the Spirit of Prophecy, and our old SDA faith will be thrown out the window, for the purpose of supporting your doctrines against women pastors which happen to be an old relic from the Roman Catholic church.

[Bob Pickle]

J. H. Waggoner, if he were alive today, would be far older than Chudleigh, and he understood that women were not to be ordained as elders, if I recall his statement correctly. And so your point doesn't seem sound to me. Kirkpatrick's reasoning can't be that newfangled if prominent Adventists were writing the same sort of thing in the 19th century.

From an article when Waggoner was the resident editor of ST:

And this appears yet more evident from the explanatory declaration in his words to Timothy, "But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence." 1 Tim. 2:2. The divine arrangement, even from the beginning, is this, that the man is the head of the woman. Every relation is disregarded or abused in this lawless age. But the Scriptures always maintain this order in the family relation. "For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church." Eph. 5:23. Man is entitled to certain privileges which are not given to woman; and he is subjected to some duties, and burdens from which the woman is exempt. A woman may pray, prophesy, exhort, and comfort the church, but she cannot occupy the position of a pastor or a ruling elder. This would be looked upon as usurping authority over the man, which is here prohibited. ...

Neither do the words of Paul confine the labors of women to the act of prophesying alone. He refers to prayers, and also speaks of certain women who "labored in the Lord," an expression which could only refer to the work of the gospel. He also, in remarking on the work of the prophets, speaks of edification, exhortation, and comfort. This "labor in the Lord," with prayer, comprises all the duties of public worship. Not all the duties of business meetings, which were probably conducted by men, or all the duties of ruling elders, and pastors, compare 1 Tim. 5:17, with 2:12, but all that pertain to exercises purely religious. We sincerely believe that, according to the Scriptures, women, as a right may, and as a duty ought to, engage in these exercises.

[Battle Creek]

Posting this statement seems to indicate that you too have lost your former great confidence in the Spirit of Prophecy. You must have read where she writes:

"It is the accompaniment of the Holy Spirit of God that prepares workers, both men and women, to become pastors to the flock of God." Gospel Workers, page 96.

[Bob Pickle]

What do men and women becoming "pastors" to the flock of God have to do with whether women biblically may serve as ordained local elders? I don't see how this passage, which is talking about the benefits of canvassing, gives guidance for the topic at hand.

At any rate, you indicated that Waggoner's views were a new development in recent times, but that is not true, based on 19th century statements by Waggoner and others. You stated:

When I was studying for the ministry many of our textbooks were by Mrs. White and we knew that here we had the Spirit of Prophecy. It was inspiring to meet with and talk to quite a few people back then who had not only met Mrs. White but lived with her. Our Bible teachers taught us how to understand the Bible and see how it supported the guidance of the Spirit of Prophecy in the end time movements and church.

In recent years people claiming to be saints have turned all of this upside down. Now the textual understanding used in the early days of our church to support the Spirit of Prophecy have lost their validity, generally for one purpose: to support the Roman Catholic doctrine of the male priesthood.

Clearly, you said that opposition to women's ordination to headship roles is a modern departure from the teachings of the early days of our church, and yet when we examine the writings of our pioneers from those early days, they were strongly opposed too, for similar reasons. Let's not try to rewrite history, or try to say that their teachings on this subject undermined the Spirit of Prophecy, when they most definitely supported the Spirit of Prophecy.

[Battle Creek]

I noticed Kevin Paulson made the group..he is a political animal and is known to be opposed to WO. My guess is that he was chasen for his political AND academic skills...in my honest opinion, he will bend his every effort to make sure WO is DOA in 2015!!!

The battle will be in the delegate counts long before the GC Session and Kevin is ACUTELY AWARE that it will be won or lost in the Delegate Selection Process!!!

I trust that IJN Akagi will expand his reach well beyond NPUC!!!

Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter

You have got to be kidding me?!  "Political animal" is an understatement. Don't get me wrong, I like how Kevin has openly confronted Danny Shelton. However, he is ruthless and uncompromising.

It has been reported in Adventist Today that Kevin Paulson now concedes that female pastors can be used in the church if their assignments are restricted to other women and children.

That seems to be an interesting development.

[Bob Pickle]

Wouldn't he have felt the same long ago?

[Daryl Fawcett]

Can you provide a link to back up what you posted here about Kevin Paulson?

I noticed Kevin Paulson made the group..he is a political animal and is known to be opposed to WO. My guess is that he was chasen for his political AND academic skills...in my honest opinion, he will bend his every effort to make sure WO is DOA in 2015!!!

The battle will be in the delegate counts long before the GC Session and Kevin is ACUTELY AWARE that it will be won or lost in the Delegate Selection Process!!!

I trust that IJN Akagi will expand his reach well beyond NPUC!!!

Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter

You have got to be kidding me?!  "Political animal" is an understatement. Don't get me wrong, I like how Kevin has openly confronted Danny Shelton. However, he is ruthless and uncompromising.

It has been reported in Adventist Today that Kevin Paulson now concedes that female pastors can be used in the church if their assignments are restricted to other women and children.

That seems to be an interesting development.

[Daryl Fawcett]

Pastor Kevin Paulson gave me permission to post the following as written by him:

This is a truncated description of my understanding, which isn't
surprising coming from the source you cite.

     What I believe, on the basis of Scripture, is that headship roles
in ministry are reserved for men, on the basis of the original created
order (I Tim. 2:12-13).  As the Seventh-day Adventist Church is
structured, this would mean that such offices as that of local church
elder, senior pastor, administrative associate pastor, Conference
president, Conference executive secretary, and Conference ministerial
direction, would be reserved for males only.

     This doesn't mean women would have no role in working with men.
The above limitation would not apply to departmental positions at both
the local church and Conference level, nor would it apply to associate
pastors involved in matters other than administration.  Schoolteachers
and principals, for example, are all under the administrative guidance
of pastors and Conference leaders, so those roles wouldn't be
restricted to men either.

     Without question, it will take some time and forethought for
church leaders to articulate and apply the Biblical headship principle
to all areas of denominational life.  But it can and must be applied
if we are to remain faithful to the Biblical order of authority in the
home as well as the church.

[Battle Creek]

http://www.atoday.org/article/2519/opinion/visiting-columnists/open-letter-to-the-theology-ordination-study-committee-members#comment48730

Can you provide a link to back up what you posted here about Kevin Paulson?

I noticed Kevin Paulson made the group..he is a political animal and is known to be opposed to WO. My guess is that he was chasen for his political AND academic skills...in my honest opinion, he will bend his every effort to make sure WO is DOA in 2015!!!

The battle will be in the delegate counts long before the GC Session and Kevin is ACUTELY AWARE that it will be won or lost in the Delegate Selection Process!!!

I trust that IJN Akagi will expand his reach well beyond NPUC!!!

Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter

You have got to be kidding me?!  "Political animal" is an understatement. Don't get me wrong, I like how Kevin has openly confronted Danny Shelton. However, he is ruthless and uncompromising.

It has been reported in Adventist Today that Kevin Paulson now concedes that female pastors can be used in the church if their assignments are restricted to other women and children.

That seems to be an interesting development.

[Battle Creek]

What do men and women becoming "pastors" to the flock of God have to do with whether women biblically may serve as ordained local elders? I don't see how this passage, which is talking about the benefits of canvassing, gives guidance for the topic at hand. 

You seem to miss the point. Ellen White is clearly talking about the benefits of canvassing in preparation for the ministry. Then she adds that both men and women will be called by the Holy Spirit as pastors.

At any rate, you indicated that Waggoner's views were a new development in recent times, but that is not true, based on 19th century statements by Waggoner and others.

Thank you for this information. That explains why Ellen White wrote a warning against following Waggoner at the beginning of the 20th century. It also explains why in the good old days when our Bible teachers still believed that Ellen White was the fulfillment of the Spirit of Prophecy, never mentioned this now revived heresy of male headship. You belong to a younger generation that did not learn to trust Ellen White the way our generation experienced it. This new generation claims to follow Ellen White, but it seems to me like it only happens where her writings do not contradict their preconceived prejudices or the new prophets and televangelists who are replacing Ellen White.