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Author Topic: "Women in Ministry" Book and "Prove All Things" Book on Women's Ordination  (Read 22825 times)

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Bob Pickle

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Re: "Women in Ministry" Book and "Prove All Things" Book on Women's Ordination
« Reply #60 on: December 11, 2012, 06:48:57 PM »

I'm not sure that that is accurate. Can a commissioned minister conduct communion if they are not currently elected as a local elder?

Can a commissioned minister serve as a conference president in North America? I thought that ever since last January it has been recognized that they can't. Wasn't that what Dan Jackson's January 2012 letter all about?

You had stated that commissioned ministers were also ordained. Did you mean by that that they were probably ordained as local elders?
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Battle Creek

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Re: "Women in Ministry" Book and "Prove All Things" Book on Women's Ordination
« Reply #61 on: December 12, 2012, 09:46:27 AM »

A female commissioned minister told me that five women were ordained in England at the same time by their union president. There seem to be more that a hundred female commissioned ministers in the United States. Have they not been ordained as such? I know that a number of commissioned ministers serve also as local elders whose conference presidents have granted them permission to baptize, etc., and serve as local pastors with no other pastor for the same church or district.

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It is not always men who are best adapted to the successful management of a church. —Manuscript Releases 19:56.{PaM 36.2}

Bob Pickle

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Re: "Women in Ministry" Book and "Prove All Things" Book on Women's Ordination
« Reply #62 on: December 12, 2012, 07:17:22 PM »

If they were really ordained in that service, I would think they were ordained as local elders. Otherwise, I would think they were commissioned, not ordained. I would not think that a commissioning service and an ordination service are one and the same.

I would also think that if they had already served as licensed ministers, that the service you refer to was a commissioning service. Otherwise, if they were just starting out, I would think they were ordained as local elders, and were not being commissioned, and were then going to be licensed ministers, not commissioned ministers.

But I'm unfamiliar with the circumstances you are referring to.
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Battle Creek

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Re: "Women in Ministry" Book and "Prove All Things" Book on Women's Ordination
« Reply #63 on: December 13, 2012, 04:53:28 AM »


But I'm unfamiliar with the circumstances you are referring to.

Seems good since familiarity breeds contempt   :dogwag:  :oops:
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Battle Creek

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Re: "Women in Ministry" Book and "Prove All Things" Book on Women's Ordination
« Reply #64 on: December 14, 2012, 03:14:22 AM »

If they were really ordained in that service, I would think they were ordained as local elders. Otherwise, I would think they were commissioned, not ordained. I would not think that a commissioning service and an ordination service are one and the same.

I would also think that if they had already served as licensed ministers, that the service you refer to was a commissioning service. Otherwise, if they were just starting out, I would think they were ordained as local elders, and were not being commissioned, and were then going to be licensed ministers, not commissioned ministers.

But I'm unfamiliar with the circumstances you are referring to.

The Church Manual, as amended by the latest GC session explains the relationship between the functions of pastor, commissioned pastor, licensed minister, and elder, in the following terms:

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“If the pastor is a licensed minister, the church or churches served should elect the pastor as an elder…

“Communion services must always be conducted by an ordained/commissioned pastor or local elder. . .

“Baptismal Service. . . An elder should not officiate in the service without first obtaining permission from the conference president. . .

“In a marriage ceremony the charge, vows, and declaration of marriage are given only by an ordained pastor except in such areas where division committees have approved that selected licensed or commissioned pastors who have been ordained as local elders may perform the ceremony. “ Pp. 73-74

“There are circumstances, however, where it is necessary for the conference committee to appoint a licensed minister to carry responsibility as a pastor or assistant pastor of a church or group of churches. In order to open the way for a licensed minister to carry certain pastoral functions, the church or group of churches must elect the pastor as a local elder. Then, since the right to extend the right of a licensed minister’s authority rests first with the division executive committee, it must approve the extension by specifically and clearly defining the additional functions that that licensed minister may perform… After the division committee has acted, the conference committee may act.” P. 34
Quote

This wording, which was approved by the General Conference in session in 2010, seems to give each division committee an almost unlimited mandate to direct the authority of commissioned or licensed ministers within the church or churches the conference has assigned to them.

Therefore the main distinction between a commissioned and a generally ordained minister seems primarily to be that the generally ordained minister can function universally, while the commissioned minister is limited in their function to the local church where the conference committee has placed them. This  means that the commissioned minister cannot organize new churches or serve as conference president - unless that assignment has been approved by the division committee. Some may feel that the election as a conference president by the general assembly, which is the highest governing authority in the local conference, equals being assigned as a pastor to all the churches in that particular conference.


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It is not always men who are best adapted to the successful management of a church. —Manuscript Releases 19:56.{PaM 36.2}

Battle Creek

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Re: "Women in Ministry" Book and "Prove All Things" Book on Women's Ordination
« Reply #65 on: December 14, 2012, 03:36:31 AM »

The current Church Manual also prescribes that deaconesses can only be ordained by an ordained minister in the conference. Once ordained, a deaconess does not have to be ordained again if she serves again later as a deaconess, either in the same or another church.
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It is not always men who are best adapted to the successful management of a church. —Manuscript Releases 19:56.{PaM 36.2}

Bob Pickle

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Re: "Women in Ministry" Book and "Prove All Things" Book on Women's Ordination
« Reply #66 on: December 14, 2012, 03:43:23 PM »

I don't think a division committee can legitimately vote to permit a licensed or commissioned minister to organize churches or serve as a conference president. Jackson's letter of last January seems to make that fairly clear.
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Battle Creek

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Re: "Women in Ministry" Book and "Prove All Things" Book on Women's Ordination
« Reply #67 on: December 15, 2012, 05:37:49 AM »

Take another look at the wording in the CHURCH MANUAL. The accusers of Dan Jackson might not have read that.
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It is not always men who are best adapted to the successful management of a church. —Manuscript Releases 19:56.{PaM 36.2}

Battle Creek

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Re: "Women in Ministry" Book and "Prove All Things" Book on Women's Ordination
« Reply #68 on: January 16, 2013, 03:37:56 PM »

The author of this small booklet fought against the ordination of women at General Conference Sessions while serving as a union president.

Now he offers his views in a booklet free to all:

http://www.priestlyministry.com/uploads/Priestly_Ministry_FINAL.pdf

It also deals with the Sanctuary Service and salvation
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It is not always men who are best adapted to the successful management of a church. —Manuscript Releases 19:56.{PaM 36.2}

Daryl Fawcett

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Re: "Women in Ministry" Book and "Prove All Things" Book on Women's Ordination
« Reply #69 on: January 16, 2013, 06:14:33 PM »

I skimmed through and then did a word search on the name "husband" in the pdf file and noticed that it didn't even quote or comment on the following verse:
Quote
1Timothy 3:2 KJV  A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
I wondered why he didn't quote and comment on that verse, seeing it is one that it widely used by pro WO people?
The author of this small booklet fought against the ordination of women at General Conference Sessions while serving as a union president.

Now he offers his views in a booklet free to all:

http://www.priestlyministry.com/uploads/Priestly_Ministry_FINAL.pdf

It also deals with the Sanctuary Service and salvation

Battle Creek

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Re: "Women in Ministry" Book and "Prove All Things" Book on Women's Ordination
« Reply #70 on: January 17, 2013, 05:51:54 AM »

I skimmed through and then did a word search on the name "husband" in the pdf file and noticed that it didn't even quote or comment on the following verse:
Quote
1Timothy 3:2 KJV  A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
I wondered why he didn't quote and comment on that verse, seeing it is one that it widely used by pro WO people?
I think you are mistaken. That verse seems to be used frequently by the people who oppose the ordination of women in their futile attempts to prove what is not there. Does your whole definition of Jesus Christ as our High Priest depend on that on that one verse? Most Bible scholars discover the whole picture throughout the Scriptures. This is a unique perspective. A person gets hold of a book, skims through it just to discover how the author deals with a single sentence in the whole Bible. If that does not fit into your preconceived notion, then it is worthless in your eyes?

This is not directed at you personally, Daryl, but it seems quite typical in these discussions.
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The author of this small booklet fought against the ordination of women at General Conference Sessions while serving as a union president.

Now he offers his views in a booklet free to all:

http://www.priestlyministry.com/uploads/Priestly_Ministry_FINAL.pdf

It also deals with the Sanctuary Service and salvation
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It is not always men who are best adapted to the successful management of a church. —Manuscript Releases 19:56.{PaM 36.2}

Daryl Fawcett

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Re: "Women in Ministry" Book and "Prove All Things" Book on Women's Ordination
« Reply #71 on: January 18, 2013, 08:36:31 AM »

I was wondering why he didn't explain what that verse mean't, knowing that it was extensively used by pro WOers.

Battle Creek

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Re: "Women in Ministry" Book and "Prove All Things" Book on Women's Ordination
« Reply #72 on: January 18, 2013, 12:00:03 PM »

I was wondering why he didn't explain what that verse mean't, knowing that it was extensively used by pro WOers.

I am still having a hard time seeing any reason why he should, since everything is so clearly defined and presented.
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It is not always men who are best adapted to the successful management of a church. —Manuscript Releases 19:56.{PaM 36.2}

Daryl Fawcett

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Re: "Women in Ministry" Book and "Prove All Things" Book on Women's Ordination
« Reply #73 on: January 19, 2013, 04:07:17 PM »

What about it being clear to others?
I was wondering why he didn't explain what that verse mean't, knowing that it was extensively used by pro WOers.

I am still having a hard time seeing any reason why he should, since everything is so clearly defined and presented.

Battle Creek

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Re: "Women in Ministry" Book and "Prove All Things" Book on Women's Ordination
« Reply #74 on: January 20, 2013, 08:10:17 PM »

It takes slightly more than skimming and a word search. It also takes an understanding of the Sanctuary Service.
What about it being clear to others?
I was wondering why he didn't explain what that verse mean't, knowing that it was extensively used by pro WOers.

I am still having a hard time seeing any reason why he should, since everything is so clearly defined and presented.

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It is not always men who are best adapted to the successful management of a church. —Manuscript Releases 19:56.{PaM 36.2}
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