Theology Category > Doctrinal Discussions
Doug Bachelor Preaches Against Women Pastors & Elders
Murcielago:
To my knowledge, EGW never specifically stated that women should be ordained, nor, have I ever seen where she says that they shouldn't. That, in the context of her own ordination and that of many other women during her time says a lot, imo, in addition to the fact that the church didn't take its stane againt women until after her death.
tinka:
Just because she does not make a statement that "we shouldn't" ordain women does not change her stance as she simply states "what is" the best direction and why. and she was right as now in this age you can see where women movement has taken this cockeyed generation. The first time I heard DBatchelor preach on this he was right on as he presented it Biblically and years ago EGW was correct in future views the reason not to do it. But you know women do what women want to do!!.
8. IT IS LIKELY THAT ELLEN WHITE DID NOT SUGGEST AT ANY TIME THAT THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST CHURCH SHOULD COMMENCE THE PRACTICE OF ORDAINING WOMEN TO THE GOSPEL MINISTRY. HER SECRETARY, C. C. CRISLER, SAYS THAT SHE WAS VERY CAUTIOUS ON THIS POINT. HERE IS THE CORRESPONDENCE RELATING TO THIS QUESTION:{DG 253.2}
"MARCH 12, 1916
"MR. CLARENCE CRISLER, SANITARIUM [CALIFORNIA]
"DEAR BROTHER: WILL YOU PLEASE INFORM ME IN REGARD TO THE SETTING APART OF WOMEN WHO CAN GIVE SOME TIME TO MISSIONARY WORK, BY LAYING ON HANDS IN PRAYER, FOUND IN REVIEW AND HERALD, BACK IN THE EARLY PART OF THE NINETIES, PROBABLY BACK IN ABOUT 1892 OR 1893, FROM THE PEN OF SISTER WHITE.{DG 253.3}
"THE REASON I ASK FOR THIS, I WAS IN A RECENT MEETING WHERE ELDER ANDROSS SET ASIDE WOMEN BY THE LAYING ON OF HANDS, AND WHEN I ASKED HIM FOR THE AUTHORITY FOR SO DOING, HE REFERRED ME TO YOU, AND AS I HAVE BEEN A BIBLE WORKER FOR A NUMBER OF YEARS AND HAVE RECENTLY BEEN GRANTED A MINISTERIAL LICENSE, I WANT THIS INFORMATION. {DG 253.4}
254
"PLEASE ANSWER AT ONCE, AS I WANT TO HEAR FROM YOU BEFORE I GO TO THE SOUTHWESTERN UNION CONFERENCE, WHICH CONVENES APRIL 7. PLEASE SEND ME TWO OR THREE COPIES OF HER STATEMENT, AS THE PRESIDENT OF OUR CONFERENCE WANTS ONE."-- MRS. L. E. COX, 134 AGARITA AVENUE, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS.{DG 254.1}
"MARCH 22, 1916
"MRS. L. E. COX, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS
"DEAR SISTER: I HAVE YOUR LETTER OF THE TWELFTH, MAKING INQUIRY REGARDING THE ORDINATION OF WOMEN WHO GIVE SOME TIME TO MISSIONARY WORK--PARTICULARLY TO SOME STATEMENT WHICH YOU BELIEVE TO BE FOUND IN A REVIEW EARLY IN THE NINETIES, FROM THE PEN OF MRS. ELLEN G. WHITE.{DG 254.2}
"AS THIS QUERY WILL REQUIRE SOME STUDY ON MY PART, AND SEARCHING, AND AS I MUST GO TO MOUNTAIN VIEW IN THE MORNING FOR A FEW DAYS, I AM UNDER THE NECESSITY OF ASKING THAT YOU EXCUSE ME FROM ANSWERING FOR A FEW DAYS. UPON MY RETURN, EARLY NEXT WEEK, I WILL ENDEAVOR TO SEND YOU A REPLY, ACCOMPANYING SAME, IF POSSIBLE, WITH THE EXTRACTS CALLED FOR. HOWEVER, I MIGHT SAY THAT I HAVE NOT UNDERSTOOD THESE EXTRACTS AS TEACHING POSITIVELY THE ORDINATION OF WOMEN AS MINISTERS OF THE GOSPEL. I HAVE SUPPOSED, RATHER, THAT THEY REFER PRIMARILY TO THE ORDINATION OF GOD-FEARING WOMEN AS DEACONESSES IN LOCAL CHURCHES. BUT OF THIS I WILL SPEAK MORE FULLY WHEN I WRITE AGAIN.{DG 254.3}
"I HOPE TO WRITE YOU ABOUT THE TWENTY-EIGHTH, AND WILL ADDRESS YOU AS ABOVE. IF YOU ARE LEAVING SAN ANTONIO FOR OTHER PARTS, IT WOULD BE WELL FOR YOU TO LEAVE A FORWARDING ORDER, SO MAIL ADDRESSED AS ABOVE WILL REACH YOU IN DUE TIME AT THE UNION CONFERENCE."--CLARENCE CRISLER.{DG 254.4}
"JUNE 16, 1916
"MRS. L. E. COX
"DEAR SISTER: IN MY ANSWER UNDER DATE OF MARCH 22, I WAS UNABLE TO FORWARD YOU COPY OF THE REVIEW ARTICLE CALLED FOR, BUT VENTURED TO SAY, 'I HAVE NOT UNDERSTOOD THESE EXTRACTS AS TEACHING POSITIVELY THE ORDINATION OF WOMEN AS MINISTERS OF THE GOSPEL. I HAVE SUPPOSED, RATHER, THAT THEY REFER PRIMARILY TO THE ORDINATION OF GOD-FEARING WOMEN AS DEACONESSES IN LOCAL CHURCHES.'{DG 254.5}
"SINCE WRITING THE ABOVE, I HAVE FOUND THE ARTICLE IN QUESTION AND
255
HAVE HAD SAME COPIED. ENCLOSED FIND A COPY OF THIS ARTICLE. [RH, JULY 9, 1895.] I AM ALSO FORWARDING A COPY TO YOUR LOCAL CONFERENCE PRESIDENT, ELDER E. L. NEFF, AND TO THE PRESIDENT OF YOUR UNION, ELDER J. W. CHRISTIAN, THAT THEY MAY KNOW WHAT I AM SENDING TO YOU.{DG 254.6}
"WHILE I DO NOT MAKE IT A PART OF MY WORK TO PRESUME TO INTERPRET THAT WHICH HAS BEEN WRITTEN, YET I MAY BE PARDONED FOR EXPRESSING AS MY CONVICTION THE THOUGHT THAT THIS ARTICLE PUBLISHED IN THE REVIEW DOES NOT REFER TO THE ORDINATION OF WOMEN AS MINISTERS OF THE GOSPEL, BUT RATHER TOUCHES UPON THE QUESTION OF SETTING APART, FOR SPECIAL DUTIES IN LOCAL CHURCHES, GOD-FEARING WOMEN IN SUCH CHURCHES WHERE CIRCUMSTANCES CALL FOR SUCH ACTION.{DG 255.1}
"AND MAY I ADD THAT SISTER WHITE, PERSONALLY, WAS VERY CAREFUL ABOUT EXPRESSING HERSELF IN ANY WISE AS TO THE ADVISABILITY OF ORDAINING WOMEN AS GOSPEL MINISTERS. SHE HAS OFTEN SPOKEN OF THE PERILS THAT SUCH GENERAL PRACTICE WOULD EXPOSE THE CHURCH TO BY A GAINSAYING WORLD; BUT AS YET I HAVE NEVER SEEN FROM HER PEN ANY STATEMENT THAT WOULD SEEM TO ENCOURAGE THE FORMAL AND OFFICIAL ORDINATION OF WOMEN TO THE GOSPEL MINISTRY, TO PUBLIC LABOR SUCH AS IS ORDINARILY EXPECTED OF AN ORDAINED MINISTER.{DG 255.2}
"THIS IS NOT SUGGESTING, MUCH LESS SAYING, THAT NO WOMEN ARE FITTED FOR SUCH PUBLIC LABOR, AND THAT NONE SHOULD EVER BE ORDAINED; IT IS SIMPLY SAYING THAT SO FAR AS MY KNOWLEDGE EXTENDS, SISTER WHITE NEVER ENCOURAGED CHURCH OFFICIALS TO DEPART FROM THE GENERAL CUSTOMS OF THE CHURCH IN THOSE MATTERS."--C. C. CRISLER.{DG 255.3}
At the conclusion of this you have C.C. Crisler the sec. giving opinion. So therefore I came up with this same scenario of EGW stand on ordination but fail to take in consideration of an opinion other then EGW wrote on.
The people who obey God's commandments are now the light of the world, the preserver of the Word of God in its purity, and they are elevating and exalting the law of God,--the only true, infallible standard of character in our world,--therefore every man and woman whom Heaven has intrusted with this most sacred truth are required to be active instruments to diffuse the light to others. The church who obeys God's law is to send forth her sons as missionaries and preachers, and her daughters as teachers.
anyman:
Man (in the generalized sense) is the one who places limits on God. Man assumes to know what God meant in every word He has uttered or has guided the hand of man to write. One can not know the heart of God. The church knows only the truths that God has revealed, each time at a point where man was ready to comprehend.
The easiest way to "prove" Mrs. White's position on the ordination of woman would be to provide contextually framed quotes from her writings that indicate her position against the practice. If they do not exist, then one must look at her actions in regards to the act. In this instance she did not reject, by word or act, the ordination conveyed to her by the church. That was in a day and age when woman in our society didn't even have the right to vote. Her actions are a strong statement. She did not take the cloak of ordination of her own volition as that would have been placing herself above church leadership (leaders who were called of God to serve and accepted), but accepted the act of church leadership when it did. To call into question that act of the church is to insinuate those men acted without spending time on their knees in communion with God and at their desks in study. I have no doubt they sought the Lord's guidance and acted accordingly. One, today, can question their motives or the way in which they arrived at their decisions, but that is a judgment that is not ours to make. Only God sees the hearts of man (and he looks past the wedding rings and pants in doing so) and can know intent.
Women can powerfully present the word of God in the home or in the pulpit. Being called of God is not something man can question - that is a conversation between the called and God.
princessdi:
While EGW was ordained in her calling as prophetess/messenger, there were still others that the denomination ordained as pastors, "ordained to preach". So essentailly after the deaths of EGW and these other women the church deemed that women had no more to say. No one has ever said they changed because they recieved new light, or anything. they just stopped and adopted the world's sexist view. Is it not Paul who says, there is neither male female, Jew or Gentile...........?
--- Quote from: tinka on March 24, 2010, 06:18:48 AM ---Thank you Johann for putting that up there. I was about wore out yesterday. But here again, we must watch the wording exactly and what it means. "She was chosen, she was ordained for a "messenger" it does not say the word "preacher", "pastor". She performed as she was instructed. I believe she was too humble to decide what "God would have or instruct somebody else". So she stayed away from direct comment as she was shown another way. I wished I could say words better to what I mean.
--- End quote ---
Murcielago:
--- Quote from: anyman on March 25, 2010, 12:59:49 PM ---Man (in the generalized sense) is the one who places limits on God. Man assumes to know what God meant in every word He has uttered or has guided the hand of man to write. One can not know the heart of God. The church knows only the truths that God has revealed, each time at a point where man was ready to comprehend.
The easiest way to "prove" Mrs. White's position on the ordination of woman would be to provide contextually framed quotes from her writings that indicate her position against the practice. If they do not exist, then one must look at her actions in regards to the act. In this instance she did not reject, by word or act, the ordination conveyed to her by the church. That was in a day and age when woman in our society didn't even have the right to vote. Her actions are a strong statement. She did not take the cloak of ordination of her own volition as that would have been placing herself above church leadership (leaders who were called of God to serve and accepted), but accepted the act of church leadership when it did. To call into question that act of the church is to insinuate those men acted without spending time on their knees in communion with God and at their desks in study. I have no doubt they sought the Lord's guidance and acted accordingly. One, today, can question their motives or the way in which they arrived at their decisions, but that is a judgment that is not ours to make. Only God sees the hearts of man (and he looks past the wedding rings and pants in doing so) and can know intent.
Women can powerfully present the word of God in the home or in the pulpit. Being called of God is not something man can question - that is a conversation between the called and God.
--- End quote ---
Well said.
And again, it was not until after the death of EGW that the church took its stance against women being in ministry leadership.
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