The Samoan Sabbath Problem

[Gregory]

God does not always work by supernatural revelation.  When He does, that revelation is often challenged and ignored.

God often works individually on people and He allows, I beleive, honest people to differ to drive them to Scripture, prayer and the leading of the Holy Spirit.

[Daryl Fawcett]

Here is part of the problem I am having with this issue of what named day is in reality THE seventh-day Sabbath of the Lord.

If, for example, it were 5:00 p.m. where I am in Pugwash, NS, Canada and 10:00 a.m. in Honolulu, Hawaii, USA. and 8:00 a.m. in Auckland, NZ, the same sun that is shining where I am would also be the same sun that is shining in both Honolulu and Auckland, however, whereas it is called Wednesday in both Pugwash, NS, Canada and in Honolulu, Hawaii, USA, even with the greater time difference, it is called Thursday in Auckland, NZ with only a two hour time difference between Honolulu and Auckland.  This doesn't make any sense to me biblically, but this is how the world sees it in relation to the human date-line.    How does God see it in relation to the evening and the day, sunset to sunset scenario?

When the sun sets first in Pugwash, NS it will biblically be Thursday.   When the sun sets later on in Honolulu, Hawaii, it will biblically be Thursday.   When the sun sets two hours later in Auckland, NZ only after the sun sets in Honolulu, Hawaii, shouldn't it also biblically be Thursday instead of Friday?  If it weren't for the humanly established date-line between Honolulu and Auckland, the world would have shown it as Thursday instead of Friday, even though the world uses midnight to midnight rather than from sunset to sunset.

Again, all this doesn't make any sense to me, and all on account of this humanly devised date-line in opposition to God's sunset to sunset day determination scenario.

[Dedication]

Quote by Chrisitian:
Perfect example of what I am talking about that drives me crazy. Why is there not fasting and praying for God to settle the issue?

There is a lot of fasting and praying going on by those in Samoa that have stood against the popular movement to worship on Sunday.   
It isn't easy for them -- NOT EASY AT ALL.   

Persecution by shunning and constantly having your former friends in the church treating you like an outcast, being locked out of the church you love.
No Adventist pastor on the Islands being allowed to preach in your congregation so lay people have to do the preaching.

They had one special Sabbath, when Pastors came from New Zealand and Australia to worship with them. 
What a joyous occasion that was for them.   

It's a mini revelation of what it will be like in the early stages when Sunday laws are passed.

The trouble is -- I'm not so sure it's two groups of honest people.
A lot of the people keeping Sunday never fasted and prayed about it, they just do what the leaders tell them to do. 

But I know the ones keeping Saturday as the Sabbath have spent a lot of time praying.
In fact they have found a richness in Sabbath keeping they never thought possible!
Those keeping Saturday as the seventh day in Samoa do so from CONVICTION and love for the Lord, and His holy time has become VERY precious -- it's a totally different experience than those who keep sabbath simply because it's habit.

There's something about persecution that refines the gold.   

[Dedication]

When the sun sets later on in Honolulu, Hawaii, it will biblically be Thursday.   When the sun sets two hours later in Auckland, NZ only after the sun sets in Honolulu, Hawaii, shouldn't it also biblically be Thursday instead of Friday? If it weren't for the humanly established date-line between Honolulu and Auckland, the world would have shown it as Thursday instead of Friday, even though the world uses midnight to midnight rather than from sunset to sunset.

Again, all this doesn't make any sense to me, and all on account of this humanly devised date-line in opposition to God's sunset to sunset day determination scenario.

Actually Daryl,
If the human  devised 180th and the "center of the earth" hadn't been shifted to England,  there wouldn't have been the confusion to these Islands concerning the Sabbath, they would all be on Australian time.   That's where they were prior to the "human devising".    The "day line" naturally, without human intervention had fallen in the Pacific,  thus America was at the tail end of the day, while the Islands were at the BEGINNING of the day -- just where they are again today.

The gospel (which includes the Sabbath)
began in Palistine where the Sabbath was confirmed to be on the day PRIOR to Sunday by Christ Himself.
That is the CENTER POINT for establishing the Sabbath.

The message spread east and west from Palistine, with no issues of a day line.
It spread West across Europe and into America
It spread East across Asia to Australia and the Pacific Islands   

It wasn't until east met west in the Pacific that it was even realized that there was a difference of a day when east met west.  But when east meets west on the globe, there is a day line, it's a scientific fact.

[Bob Pickle]

Biblically, the Sabbath day is the day after Jesus died, and the day before Jesus rose. If the Samoans celebrate Good Friday on Friday, and Easter Sunday on Sunday, then the Sabbath should be the day in between.

The only other possibility is that the Catholic Church in Samoa is celebrating Easter on the wrong day, a very serious charge. Plus, if the Catholics aren't really keeping the 1st day of the week in Samoa, and are keeping the 2nd day instead, then wouldn't that be a pretty serious sin according to Catholicism?

[Gregory]

Plus, if the Catholics aren't really keeping the 1st day of the week in Samoa, and are keeping the 2nd day instead, then wouldn't that be a pretty serious sin according to Catholicism?

No.

Remember, the Roman Catholic Church claims to have changed the day from the Sabbath to Sunday.  That claim of authority alows the Pople to authorize any other day.  Actuallly the Pope does nto have to do it.  I remind you that in the area where I live  Roman Catholics can fulfill their Sunday obligation to go to Mass on Saturday afternoon. That authorization came from the Bishop.

[Gregory]

The gospel (which includes the Sabbath)
began in Palistine where the Sabbath was confirmed to be on the day PRIOR to Sunday by Christ Himself.
That is the CENTER POINT for establishing the Sabbath.

That is a minority view in Adventism.  Robert Leo Odem disusses this in his book.  I wish that book remained in print.  Now, it can be purchased on Amazon.    Buy it:  THE LORD'S DAY ON A ROUND WORLD.

[Gregory]

The trouble is -- I'm not so sure it's two groups of honest people.
A lot of the people keeping Sunday never fasted and prayed about it, they just do what the leaders tell them to do. 

Judging motives and the heart.  I wish that we would not do that.

I would ask:  How do you know that a lot of people never prayed about it?  I would think that such knowledge could only come from a supernatural revelation from God.  Did you have such?

[Dedication]

I agree, Bob,

Indeed the Samoans celebrate Good Friday on the day they call Friday, and they celebrate Easter on the day they call Sunday.   The same "Sunday" that Adventists now call the "Sabbath".

Samoa is 99.7% Christian with 95% of it's population attending church!   
And now almost the whole 95% go to church on Sunday.
Going to church on Sunday is a big festive occasion on the Islands.   It's not like in America.

[Dedication]

The trouble is -- I'm not so sure it's two groups of honest people.
A lot of the people keeping Sunday never fasted and prayed about it, they just do what the leaders tell them to do. 

Judging motives and the heart.  I wish that we would not do that.

I would ask:  How do you know that a lot of people never prayed about it?  I would think that such knowledge could only come from a supernatural revelation from God.  Did you have such?

Not judging the heart, only the reality that a lot of those people simply accepted and went along with what the leaders told them to do.  (The word "honest" came from your post -- since you judged them all as "honest" implying they studied it out for themselves and came to an honest conclusion that this was right)

The issues were presented to the people by the leadership in a totally one sided manner with some glaring mis-information.   The decision was made FOR them.
Most accepted the explanations.
Some dared question authority and paid quite dearly for it.

But now more people are questioning and starting to weigh the evidence and joining the Sabbath keepers!  Praise God!

[Dedication]

The gospel (which includes the Sabbath)
began in Palestine where the Sabbath was confirmed to be on the day PRIOR to Sunday by Christ Himself.
That is the CENTER POINT for establishing the Sabbath.

That is a minority view in Adventism.  Robert Leo Odem disusses this in his book.  I wish that book remained in print.  Now, it can be purchased on Amazon.    Buy it:  THE LORD'S DAY ON A ROUND WORLD.

If that is a minority view, could you please tell me WHERE the gospel began?
Where did Christ minister and teach?
In what region of the earth did Christ go the synagogue every Sabbath?
Where was it that our Lord and Savior died, rested in the tomb and rose again?
Where was the first Christian church headquarters located?  (Prior to Rome's usurpation)
Where was the home point for the apostles as they went out to preach the gospel?

I'm not talking longitude here --
I'm talking about the place from which the Gospel with the Sabbath was carried to the world.

The day called Sabbath was verified by Christ as He ministered, died and rose again in the land of Galilee and Judea -- From Judea the gospel traveled west to Europe and on to America.
From Judea it travelled east to India, Asia and on to Australia and the Pacific Islands.
That is FACT not "minor opinion".

The first missionaries to the Pacific Islands kept Sunday according to Australian time.

it was when east met west that the "extra day" or "lost day" depending on which direction one was going became an issue.

[Dedication]

Plus, if the Catholics aren't really keeping the 1st day of the week in Samoa, and are keeping the 2nd day instead, then wouldn't that be a pretty serious sin according to Catholicism?

No.
Remember, the Roman Catholic Church claims to have changed the day from the Sabbath to Sunday.  That claim of authority alows the Pople to authorize any other day.  Actuallly the Pope does nto have to do it.  I remind you that in the area where I live  Roman Catholics can fulfill their Sunday obligation to go to Mass on Saturday afternoon. That authorization came from the Bishop.

Maybe we need another reminder here:
1)  Pope John Paul II's Apostolic Letter, Dies Domini, issued July 7, 1998.
2)  Pope Benedict, VIENNA, Austria, SEPT. 9, 2007, declares, "Going to Sunday Mass is not just a rule to follow, but rather an "inner necessity,"  ""Without Sunday we cannot live."
3) Listen to the Pope, June 3, 2012, talking about the necessity of Sunday.
4) The European Union must keep Sunday says the Catholic church --

[Bob Pickle]

Plus, if the Catholics aren't really keeping the 1st day of the week in Samoa, and are keeping the 2nd day instead, then wouldn't that be a pretty serious sin according to Catholicism?

No.

Remember, the Roman Catholic Church claims to have changed the day from the Sabbath to Sunday.  That claim of authority alows the Pople to authorize any other day.  Actuallly the Pope does nto have to do it.  I remind you that in the area where I live  Roman Catholics can fulfill their Sunday obligation to go to Mass on Saturday afternoon. That authorization came from the Bishop.

If you cannot cite where the Pope has changed the Sabbath from Sunday to another day, then you must be mistaken. The pope changed the Sabbath to Sunday, and not going to mass on Sunday is considered a serious sin, I think one that will send you to hell, not just purgatory. I know of no exceptions being granted to any islands in the Pacific.

http://www.catholic.com/quickquestions/does-a-saturday-morning-mass-fulfill-the-sunday-obligation

http://www.ewtn.com/library/liturgy/zlitur242.htm

Saturday afternoon masses don't cut it. It has to be Saturday evening, and that is a take off from the fact that the day begins and ends at sunset. Permitting the obligation of Sunday mass to be met the evening before is an ecumenical move toward Seventh-day Adventism.

[Gregory]

Bob, I did not say that the Pope had changed the Sabbath to Sunday, I stated that the RC Church claimed to have done that.

Bob, I did not say that the Pope had changed the Sabbath from Sunday to another day.

Read what I actually said.

[Gregory]

In 2011 the International Date Line was shifted West, as it related to American Samoa.  This occured by skipping Friday.  So, the weekly cycle that week was:  Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday and ended with Saturday.  IOW, the secular week only had 6 days, and the 7th day was the day now names Sunday.

In Tonga, Seventh Day Adventists (who usually observe seventh-day Sabbath) observe Sabbath on an official Sunday due to an anomaly in the International Date Line which places the line east of Tonga; as Tonga lies east of the meridian of 180° longitude, Sunday as observed in Tonga (as with Kiribati, Samoa, and parts of Fiji and Tuvalu) is considered for this purpose to be the same day as Saturday observed in most other places.[14] Most Samoan Seventh Day Adventists planned to continue to observe Sabbath on the official Sunday after Samoa's crossing the date line in December 2011, but the church in Samatau village decided to adjust and observe Sabbath on the "new" Saturday.[15] The Samoan Independent Seventh-day Adventist Church, which is an independent church from the worldwide Seventh-day Adventist Conference church, has decided to continue worshiping on Saturday, after a 6 day week at the end of 2011.