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[Rex]

Rex,
As I was posting your post came in and all I can say is whatever you think it may behove you to make sure you also are on the side of TRUTH OF DOCTRINE.  There will be no excuse for not knowing it. We cannot be judged by monkey see and monkey do and make it to the gates but by our individual "will "of what is truth and how we stood up with it. And beyond all doubt it is not with the majority.....

I don't believe that we have met before, or that I asked you to preach at or attempt to proselytize me. You don't know enough about me to warn, scold, or judge me, true?

pax

[Rex]

http://www.atoday.com/content/jewish-group-sued-gc-over-adventist-name

http://www.sdadefend.com/MINDEX-T/3ABN-take.pdf

Thank you for posting both these links. All should find it more credible when reading it from both the Adventist left and the Adventist right rather than the one-sided or biased reporting which commonly prevails in Adventist dialogs.

pax

[Bob Pickle]

The first example of the GC trying to "take control" of 3ABN is said to be Folkenberg in 1992 trying to get Al McClure to be a 3ABN Board member.

Is the date of 1992 just a coincidence? Or does it suggest concern by the GC after Derrell and Melody Mundall told then IL Conf. president about various irregularities and improprieties, including about Tommy Shelton's problems?

Do you know of anything out there that would firmly demonstrate that there was an attempted takeover? Just asking that an NAD official be put on the board doesn't seem to cut it. And besides, 3ABN eventually did put Ralph Thompson on, but 3ABN hasn't claimed that it's been taken over by the denomination.

So is the attempted takeover story really accurate? And if it is, was there a valid reason for wanting to put 3ABN under some sort of oversight, such as financial and moral improprieties on the part of the Shelton gang?

I heard Danny Shelton talk about the attempted takeover on several occasions.

No doubt.   You may not talk to them, but I heard it from several others that they had originally heard about it from Danny Shelton's ex-wife, Linda, and ex-son in law, Darrall Mundall, as well as several others also. It was documented on more than a few Adventist forums as well as in Adventist media when it was all going on.  From this I gather that despite the question posed to me, and the surmising, it seems to be a well established and uncontroversial fact that the Adventist hierarchy tried to take control of 3ABN's programming and content as that kind of thing  is what they are known for.

I still think we need something more solid than undocumented assertions. If there was an attempted takeover, then someone ought to be able to document it. Simply wanting to put the NAD president on the 3ABN Board doesn't cut it.

[Rex]

The first example of the GC trying to "take control" of 3ABN is said to be Folkenberg in 1992 trying to get Al McClure to be a 3ABN Board member.

Is the date of 1992 just a coincidence? Or does it suggest concern by the GC after Derrell and Melody Mundall told then IL Conf. president about various irregularities and improprieties, including about Tommy Shelton's problems?

Do you know of anything out there that would firmly demonstrate that there was an attempted takeover? Just asking that an NAD official be put on the board doesn't seem to cut it. And besides, 3ABN eventually did put Ralph Thompson on, but 3ABN hasn't claimed that it's been taken over by the denomination.

So is the attempted takeover story really accurate? And if it is, was there a valid reason for wanting to put 3ABN under some sort of oversight, such as financial and moral improprieties on the part of the Shelton gang?

I heard Danny Shelton talk about the attempted takeover on several occasions.

No doubt.   You may not talk to them, but I heard it from several others that they had originally heard about it from Danny Shelton's ex-wife, Linda, and ex-son in law, Darrall Mundall, as well as several others also. It was documented on more than a few Adventist forums as well as in Adventist media when it was all going on.  From this I gather that despite the question posed to me, and the surmising, it seems to be a well established and uncontroversial fact that the Adventist hierarchy tried to take control of 3ABN's programming and content as that kind of thing  is what they are known for.

I still think we need something more solid than undocumented assertions. If there was an attempted takeover, then someone ought to be able to document it. Simply wanting to put the NAD president on the 3ABN Board doesn't cut it.

Excuse me for saying so, but you appear to either be in denial, or to be remarkably ignorant and uninformed for an Adventist Apologist.

I don't have time to go look up all the discussion and documents from 12 years ago, nor any interest in rehashing it all, but here is a quick history and review of the pertinent documentation from one of your traditionalists:
http://www.sdadefend.com/MINDEX-T/3ABN-take.pdf



pax

[Bob Pickle]

I've found in the past that sometimes the most widely held understandings are wrong. For example, contrary to what most have believed, there is no evidence that William Miller accepted the date of October 22, 1844, and the Adventist pioneers did not universally believe that the atonement commenced upon Christ's ascension.

And thus my question as to evidence that there really was an attempted takeover, and that this isn't mere spin concocted by Danny Shelton.

The link you gave says that in 1992, Folkenberg wanted the NAD president to be on the 3ABN Board. That in and of itself isn't an attempted takeover. Given the allegations against Danny and Tommy raised in 1991, Folkenberg's request sounds totally reasonable.

But the link you gave doesn't contain the actual documents we need to read. Where are the proposed agreements of 1997? Once we read them, we can then see what was so sinister about them, if there was anything sinister.

[tinka]

 
fact that the Adventist hierarchy tried to take control and content as that kind of thing  is what they are known for.


pax

Now that is what happened exactly to us in a different situation and different setting.  It is too bad though that maybe we could have given the benefit of doubt that reason could have been what they knew or saw that was not so kosher, but the hierarchy in our situation did just what you implied. No one can ever dispute actual documents but the lies they told to get away with what they done to answer to questions was unbelievable. Some paid dearly in the end. Yes they did quite a lot of injustice under the name of SDA but they were devils and still smirk around like they did nothing wrong. at least a couple that still try to present themselves as SDA's.

[tinka]

Then yesterday I got to watch Doug Bachelor sit in a group with Jim Gilley, Danny Shelton, and one other person.

My question:  Is Danny going to be in this conglomerate?

. A cultic tactic as you "SDAs" are so fond of pointing out to Catholics. The latest lawsuit being against a small Jewish group who have "adventist" in their name although nothing else in common except the jewish Sabbath, not even the pronunciation of the word Adventist or the meaning of it.

Rex, You really got mouthie  calling us cultic tactics against 'catholics. and by rights the little group has no business with our "keepsake" name or what ever you think. Did you not come across like this or am I misunderstanding your take downs. I bear also many disappointments of SDA 's but we are not a cult or against catholics as people just their doctrines....... that is what we were first talking about... I thought, I am proud that we do have true Doctrine even when all do not practice it and will stand up for that no matter what the people do. That is what I was referring to by all means and make no bones about it.

[Bob Pickle]

We should also remember the story about how Will Kellogg, founder of Kellogg's, was chatting with his brother, John Harvey Kellogg, and John Harvey went to rambling. Will felt that John Harvey was losing it, and he contacted A. G. Daniells and offered to pay the expenses of every Adventist who wanted to come to the next Battle Creek Sanitarium constituency meeting.

Why did Will make that offer? To facilitate some sort of mean, nasty, hostile takeover? No. He was trying to save the San.

It almost worked, but John Harvey went to court and ended up retaining control.

John Harvey didn't want preachers who ate meat to be controlling the sanitarium. But what happened it the end? Because of the San's debts and the depression, John Harvey lost control anyway, to those not of our faith, and the San started serving meat.

So maybe things would have turned out better if he had allowed the constituency to have their way at that constituency meeting. Maybe if he had followed the Spirit of Prophecy counsel and not gone into debt like he did. Maybe ....

[christian]

I don't mean to appear off topic but I think that what I am about to say holds relevance to the topic. In order to understand how 3abn is still operating we must understand the institution that it proports to be a part of. From our hospitals to our institutions of higher learning we have trampled upon our doctrinal beliefs. Again, 3ABN is no worse than them and in fact in many areas are a better representation of the church than the fore mentioned. We, being the Seventhday Adventist Church, doesn't believe in the SOP or most of our doctrines with the exception of the tithe issue, on that one we agree, you cant go to heaven without paying tithe. And just think for a minute, we trademarked our name and then took our brethren to court to sue and perhaps even imprison them for the "unauthorized usage of the church name."
Honestly, we are attacking Danny and 3Abn for their sins, when right before our eyes the institution in which we find ourselves a part of is just, if not more guilty. I understand that we have to start somewhere and I am by no means trying to protect 3ABN but the Adventist church no longer holds to it own beliefs even though they are part of the pillars of our church. Our pastor preach a sermon and then prayed that we would all learn the "holy dance" And if our church were just an isolated example I could understand that but it is indicative of all the churches in the area, this is not an isolated incidence. I understand that two wrongs don't make a right but neither does correcting one wrong and leaving the other wrong make it right. As long as we are playing the hypocrite game we will have multiple people that see not real need to change their sinful ways.

[Johann]

Some of these stories below and links to other stories seem so convincing.

When I started working for 3ABN Danny Shelton's stories of how 3ABN had been treated by Church leaders seemed quite convincing. Later, when I was negotiating with leaders of the Church to get their acceptance of 3ABN in their territories, their personal experiences of how dictatorial they had been treated by Danny Shelton sounded even more convincing.

Sreonger evidence than what Rex or Christian have presented is needed for a resolution. But really, I believe only the Power of the Holy Spirit can resolve these conflicts. The Holy Spirit will never find entrance without confessions.

[Fran]

I have been noticing some big changes going on.

Maranatha is moving, ARISE is moving, Amazing Facts is now a Corporation.  Then there is one more ministry I can't think of right now.  I do believe I see everyone gathering around Doug Bachelor and Wiemar.

I am hearing about a nursing school.  The college, Nursing school, evangelistic training, ...

The conglomerate is lined up and moving together.  Is ASI moving?

Then yesterday I got to watch Doug Bachelor sit in a group with Jim Gilley, Danny Shelton, and one other person.

My question:  Is Danny going to be in this conglomerate?

Rex;

I actually believe there is a new network on the horizon.  I don't believe it will be 3ABN or Hope!

I do not see you mentioning your Hope channel , owned and controlled by your hierarchy being mentioned here. Aren't all of those programs on the Hope channel?
The SDA organization is known for lawsuits and exerting control. A cultic tactic as you "SDA's" are so fond of pointing out to Catholics. The latest lawsuit being against a small Jewish group who have "Adventist" in their name although nothing else in common except the Jewish Sabbath, not even the pronunciation of the word Adventist or the meaning of it.

I seem to remember forum discussions about your Adventist organization trying to establish control over 3ABN's content, and broadcasts some years back. 3ABN remained independent as I recall although their programming is obviously supportive of your church traditions and older doctrines. More so I have observed than the official Hope channel who is progressing in the right direction. It is fairly obvious from that, that 3ABN does not tell your hierarchy what they can teach or broadcast.

If you all don't like 3ABN then just change the channel there are more important things to worry about in my opinion.

[christian]

Sometimes, I think what we need to be discussing is why our church has changed so drastically from what it was intended to be in the beginning. I find it hard to be upset with 3ABN when I realize that they are not the real problem. Now my statement was in no way, shape or form intended to chastise those who want to see justice, I realize some have a personal interest in this situation, (child molestation etc...) But for the sincere Adventist that has no vested interest in 3ABN we need to take on the entire organization. Because our health institutions are far more guilty of perverting the message than 3ABN. Many of our churches are the vehicle used to kill many a Christians hope for salvation and our pastors are robbing the members. I remember one particular pastor pushing vitamins and getting rich off the member and all I could do was laugh as he road in his Hummer.
 I have heard a number of pastor preach that though the church is defective they should shut up and give their tithe cause the ship full of sin defective as it might be is going through and if you get off the ship you are lost. I have tried to find the scripture that supports that but cannot locate it. The bible says the truth shall set you free and again "I am the way the truth and the light" so where has this diabolical theology come from? Certainly it did not come from Ellen White because she states we will have (each person) to stand alone and give a reason for the hope we have inside us. The pastors have become the seventhday Adventist God and the members are afraid to stand on the word of God.
I remember the interview that was given one of the followers of David Koresh. And in that interview she stated that she wished she had died in the fire with him. I applaud those that want a reckoning for the sin in 3ABNs camp but don't forget your responsibility to your local church, which may be more corrupt than 3abn, just without the money

[tinka]

(laugh) your right there!!  This is why mostly I am against just lay people getting the pulpit spot on a dime.  They do not have the experience or training that the schooling gives in education to deal with the public. I have seen though just a few that the people themselves put into the spot because their agenda was nothing but truth and hard worked for the right motives and extremely intelligent on the use of the Bible. The pureness you can detect and the majority of people wanted and pushed them in.  But most are like you say. Their agenda is leadership first. Also some choose because they do not like physical labor or just can't make it in work or organization. A true Bible worker is great in both work and organization as they have the ability for all to fit into place. They have been blessed to be that kind of person and they have sense to discern other people and their problems and then react in right manner.

The pyramid games and jobs seem to attract a lot of Adventist. I wonder why? Don't they know that the right way is not ...one man works and the top reaps. I have always been disgusted with this. The little guy does all the foot work (gas, fuel) and feeds the top guy. The top guy does all the convincing of lies to sell the maybe good,but too high priced product for common use and get many little guys to get the product out at his expense. This forces the Brawn to go against their work for a penny and get a penny way of life. What a racket to poor people that have to try anything to gain a buck they think. It is called mind over brawn and most see nothing wrong with this either.  The mind is calculating how to take from the brawn instead of how to give.  Same pattern with some of the pulpit spots. and that is in all religions and not just Adventists. That's how they can buy hummers!!! or get into     trails and feed    s and extravaganza living that have nothing to do with the ministry. But their lifestyle is first priority, in material things, sex, and ego.  and their followers have the same character or the light would click on or their eyes would tell them the truth.

[christian]

I can imagine if I was a conference worker I would be laughing right now at the individuals who are so upset with 3ABN and Danny. Obviously it is not in the realm of Danny's power to stay in power without the Adventist Church approval. With the copy right law in effect they could easily fight him and separate themselves from him but they have chose not to do that. It reminds me of the United States attacking Iraq because it could when China is as guilty as them of human rights violations and the like. Thus, the Adventist is left with the same dilemma, that being if they attack the real source of Danny's problem they will be considered lost and so they assail 3ABN because they can and still be assured of a place in the church and heaven. I could run down a list of church pastors who are guilty of adultery, divorce and remarriage and perversion of the Gospel and Gossiping and stealing money from the members and on and on. Yet these individuals are still left unassailed to minister to church members and receive the tithe of the Lord. If I can see all that is going on, then I have to assume that the church sees also and approves. Am I correct or do I see a number of Adventist pastors making their way to 3ABN and these be some of the renown pastors in our denomination. How can the church say anything about Danny and 3ABN when they are as guilty as he. And how can we fight 3ABN without also fighting the church who upholds him?

[tinka]

Well, Christian,

 It seems with the Organized church in this state is why I mentioned that it appears "It's almost over". The brightest lights flickering almost out as they preach a good sermon but do not analyze the facts of events. It is ignored and gather if they just keep going nothing will be held accountable as the ship goes down.   If I would have seen also a separation or stand up just a little against this just maybe it would have given a glimmer of hope to the rescue yet giving a secure feeling as we Adventist held in the past but this tragic episode is "rolling" to devour and Satan knew what to do. I cannot imagine at this point to be in any of the leadership shoes.

I remember one time long ago, two couples intermingled right in the church. Everyone said nothing but sort of took sides with one another to find what reasoning everything was justified.  I will never forget it has a minister of that time stopped before sermon and he directly said, you, you, you and you remove yourselves from this congregation for------- and all sympathizers can follow. It was hacked by the Sword of the Lord immediately and out the door they went. It was a whirlwind that finally relieved the atmosphere and they never more were to return. They were never repentant or feel they were in the wrong and carried on but two died almost immediately. It was just horrifying that a pastor could do such a thing they claimed. It was Blessed! So the same it is here on a bigger scale (the scenario  that is) but where is the Sword? The Lord will test many by Ones evil manifestations  and ability to use their horrid talent to manipulate on this big of a scale ! I think most can agree that it's almost over unless the "awakening".