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[horsethief]

Gregory... A man who dumps his wife for a younger woman is not a Godly man. A man who knowingly attempted to shield a child molestor and who did not inform the proper authorities when it was made known to him that it had allegedly occurred at the workplace that he oversaw is a person of low character. In this case, a criminal. Regardless of any accomplishments.

[Johann]

We just came back from a meeting in our new music hall. It is a part of a public campaign focusing on the Bible beginning with a 6-day creation. The campaign is sponsored by the Trans European Division of the Seventh-day Adventist Church and the main speaker is Elder Janos Kovacs-Biro who now holds the same position in TED as formerly held by Mark Finley.

Today I heard one of the best sermons on living prayer that I have ever heard. There will be no meetings on Sunday, but the meetings continue Monday with an interesting surprise. Before Elder Kovacs speaks there will be a lecture by Mrs. Gudrun Ebba Olafsdottir, who has publicly accused her own father, a bishop in the Lutheran Church, of indecency and sexually molesting her since she was a young child. She revealed this before he died, as three women accused him of indecent sexual behavior when they came to him for counseling. She has gained many supporters, but also many enemies. Even her own brother, who is a Lutheran parson, has appeared on TV stating that his sister was misled into giving false information about what happened, but Gudrun remains firm in her statements. Today she is a frequent speaker and supporter of victims of pedophiles.

It takes courage of Seventh-day Adventist Church leaders to invite this "controversial" Lutheran woman to speak at a public campaign. By doing this they support her claims and let it be known to the public that the Church in this part of the World will not hide nor support pedophiles.

[Artiste]

I would say that whatever good could once be attributed to Danny Shelton...

HMS Richards and George VAndeman were both unique in that they had a media vision that no one else in Adventism was either able or willing to put into place.

 3-ABN was birthed and came into being due to the combined efforts of both Danny and Linda to establish it.  No one else in Adventism had both the vision and ability to put it into place. 

One does not have to believe every story that is told about its founding to believe that God was with 3-ABN in the days of its birth and in later stages of its growth.

Gregory, I am shocked that you also would compare Danny Shelton favorably with such stalwarts of the Seventh-day Adventist Church as HMS Richards and George Vandeman.

If you actually believe what you are quoted as saying above, I invite you to read again "The Televangelist".

[Gregory]

Very few people are 100% evil.

I only know of one who was 100% good.

John Harvey Kellogg had a vision for and established a great institution.  When it lost its way and no longer served the purpose that God intended for it to serve, God intervened and brought it to an end.

I think that 3-ABN was established in the beginning by a man and wife (Danny & Linda) who had a vision that no one else in the Adventist Chruch had at that time.  I am willing to say that God led in the development of 3-ABN.  I am confident that if 3-ABN departs from what God has planned for it that God is capable of accomplishing His will for it.

Yes, I can compare Danny with HMS Richards and George Vandeman as to the vision that they had for a totally new ministry that no one else had.

However, I do not compare Danny to them as to his personal lilfe and I do not compare him to them as to his personal power to proclaim the Word of God.  But, no one can be everything, forever.  Saul began his Kingship, blessed by God.  He ended it in rebellion against God.  Danny began 3-ABN with a vision of ministry.  It remains to be seen how his life will end.  God is evidently not through with either Danny or 3-ABN.    However, if and when God is through with either, or both, God will bring it about.  Of that, I am confident.

[horsethief]

Gregory, you want to appear like the guy who isn't judging? That's fine with us. But had it been your son or daughter that got molested, you wouldn't be typing what you type.

[Gregory]

If it were my son or daughter who was molested:
1) I would want justice to be served in the manner prescribed by U.S.  law.
2) Upon conviction, I would want an appropriate penalty which would likely mean prison.
3) I would want society to have a greater awareness of situations that place children at risk and with that awareness to better protect them from those who would abuse.
4) I would want better healing for those abused than what society often has to offer them.
5) I would recognize that the abuser might have done wonderful things at an earlier time.  Such recognition is actually a protection for children.  It is an acknowledgement that even those who once did wonderful things can go bad and that wonderful things in the past does not mean that children do not have to be protected from such people and that warning signs must not be ignored even if from "wonderful" people.

In my thinking, a major problem with this issue is that warning signs are often ignored when they come from upright citizens who are pillars of society.  The thinking often is:  "Oh, he would never do such. You are mistaken or you lie."

Just some, not all, of my thoughts in response to you.

[Gregory]

O.K.,  come February 24, according to what peopole say, we will  all  know how justice has been served in the case of TS.  The judge will decide on a level of punishment for him.  I do not expect it to be a slap on the wrist. But, in any case, we will soon know.

Now, my question:  What next?  What will follow after it is all over with TS?  Will it all end at this point in time for you who are reading this?  Is there something positive that can come from this?

Yes, if one can focus on making society a better place where children are less at risk.  Now that you know,  now that you have experienced, you can work within society and your local church, whatever it might be, to make children safer.

You can let your anger, justified though it may be, destroy you, or you can focus it in a manner to contribute to the welfare to society.  That is the choice of everyone reading these threads.

[youngwarrior]

I appreciate your comments, Gregory.  Another example from the Bible of one who did good and then turned evil is Balaam.  He was a prophet of God before he tried to curse Israel and then proposed the plan that separated them from God's protection.  I have no problem with the idea that at one point DS was following God.  However it appears to me that like King Saul he let pride pull him away from God.

As for your comments on what you would do if your child was molested I can speak from personal experience.  I testified against the perp and helped put him in prison for 48 years.  I wish he would repent and give his life to God although I doubt that he will.

. . . You can let your anger, justified though it may be, destroy you, or you can focus it in a manner to contribute to the welfare to society.  That is the choice of everyone reading these threads.

A word of warning to those who will not forgive; read The Lord's Prayer, especially the part about forgiving those who have sinned against you.  In that prayer you request God to forgive you the SAME WAY you forgive others.  In other words if you won't forgive, then God won't forgive you and that is a horrible thought.

[Johann]

. . . Before Elder Kovacs speaks there will be a lecture by Mrs. Gudrun Ebba Olafsdottir, who has publicly accused her own father, a bishop in the Lutheran Church, of indecency and sexually molesting her since she was a young child. She revealed this before he died, as three women accused him of indecent sexual behavior when they came to him for counseling. She has gained many supporters, but also many enemies. Even her own brother, who is a Lutheran parson, has appeared on TV stating that his sister was misled into giving false information about what happened, but Gudrun remains firm in her statements. Today she is a frequent speaker and supporter of victims of pedophiles.

It takes courage of Seventh-day Adventist Church leaders to invite this "controversial" Lutheran woman to speak at a public campaign. By doing this they support her claims and let it be known to the public that the Church in this part of the World will not hide nor support pedophiles.

I have read her book and seen her on TV. Gudrun gave her father the opportunity to confess before he died, but he refused, hiding himself behind his denials, like most pedophiles do. What else could he do with so many people believing he was innocent?

Where does forgiveness apply in a case like this?

[horsethief]

A man who knows that children were molested, yet makes efforts to hide it and to shield the perpetrator from the authorities deserves prison time. It's not a matter of forgiveness, it's a matter of right and wrong.

[Gregory]

Forgiveness does not have to mean release from consequences.

[youngwarrior]

Forgiveness doesn't mean a release from consequences.  As I said I helped put the perp in prison where he belongs and where he still is.  Forgiving someone does not imply that what they did was OK.  You simply choose to let God have the rage, pain, etc.  You also choose to leave that person in God's hands.  You even follow Christ's example and instruction and pray for the salvation of the one who wronged you.  No, it isn't easy.  In fact you have to beg God to give that kind of forgiveness to you since it is not found in us sinful human beings.

[Gregory]

One of the worst things that one can say to a victim of abuse is:  Forgive and forget.

In time, forgiveness comes.  That can be part of the healing process and the road to recovery.

Youngwarrior,  you have said much that is of value.  Thank you for your comments.

[Johann]

Forgiveness

The Lord's Prayer says,"Forgive us our sins, just as we also have forgiven those who sin against us." We are taught that we are to ask God to forgive us in the same manner as we are to forgive our debtors. We children were taught that forgiveness was what really matter, and when I was small I forgave my dad everything - even though he never asked to be forgiven. . .

My deepest longing was that my father [the bishop] would admit what he had done to me and ask my forgiveness. . . Many told that daddy would certainly regret what he had done to me. After all he loved me and would, in the final end, ask me to forgive him. . .

I kept praying fervently and sincerely for dad. Then a sincere friend told me that if I believed in a good Lord, I did not have to pray for my father, I should just let him go. This was a great relief for me.

In the New Testaments Jesus tells his disciples; “Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to sin, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were drowned in the depth of the sea." . . .

Some things are of such dimensions that only God has the power to forgive.