Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Murcielago]

Within the SDA circles, we can look at Loma Linda. Lyn Behrens took over the institution in 1991 and financially turned it around before she retired in 2008. Her leadership was strong and very effective in  stabilizing and advancing Loma Linda into the regional and global medical authority that it is. Ruthita Fike is the CEO of Loma Linda University Medical Center, and has led out in unprecedented expansion, spiritual emphasis, and financial stability. These are both women who have shown extraordinary leadership skill, and managed up to 17,000 employees, numerous hospitals and clinics, schools, and ancillary organizations.

[Murcielago]

Where I work, the females do not need a male to supervise them.  I cannot think of any who do need a male to supervise them.

LOL! In "The Sound of Music" Liesl needed Rolf (the Nazi) telling her what to do.

[christian]

Obviously, there are capable women just as there were in Jesus time. It is an interesting note that all the disciples were men. This thread reminds me of the temptation of Adam and Eve. God told Adam and Eve not to eat of the forbidden tree, why, because he said so. But Eve after she looked at the fruit and saw it was beautiful and could make one wise she did eat of it and gave it to her husband and he ate also. Sometimes God tells you to do something and expects you to do it simply because he said to do it. The woman's roll is clearly defind in the bible by God. The woman is to keep quiet and not try to be over her husband but someone has looked on her and said she looks good enough to do what she wants even though God has said no. Every time we do things our way instead of Gods way we end up in trouble. I can clearly see the woman once again taking the fruit and telling the man you see how beautiful I have become? But in the end it is the men that suffer and loses their rightful position and the woman is left once again in pain and in subjection to the man (her desire is to her husband) as God originally intended. I am not so sure that Eve will even be in heaven because of the original sin that she first committed after Satan started the ball rolling.

[Johann]

False. You are using a "system" of understanding avoiding individual perception to comply with how to justify a traditional Roman Catholic tradition.

Aren't you being pretty judgmental, Johann? How do you know what I'm thinking inside my head? If I say that I'm basing my theology on the text, not the other way around, how can you say that's false if you can't read my heart?

Sorry, Bob, but that's just how the sum of your statements come across to me.

[Murcielago]

Obviously, there are capable women just as there were in Jesus time. It is an interesting note that all the disciples were men. This thread reminds me of the temptation of Adam and Eve. God told Adam and Eve not to eat of the forbidden tree, why, because he said so. But Eve after she looked at the fruit and saw it was beautiful and could make one wise she did eat of it and gave it to her husband and he ate also. Sometimes God tells you to do something and expects you to do it simply because he said to do it. The woman's roll is clearly defind in the bible by God. The woman is to keep quiet and not try to be over her husband but someone has looked on her and said she looks good enough to do what she wants even though God has said no. Every time we do things our way instead of Gods way we end up in trouble. I can clearly see the woman once again taking the fruit and telling the man you see how beautiful I have become? But in the end it is the men that suffer and loses their rightful position and the woman is left once again in pain and in subjection to the man (her desire is to her husband) as God originally intended. I am not so sure that Eve will even be in heaven because of the original sin that she first committed after Satan started the ball rolling.

In the matter of racism, people are considered inferior because of the colour of their skin. In the matter of sexism, people are considered inferior because of their sex. If one justifies sexism as proper and divinely ordained, would it not follow that racism is equally justified? For centuries the followers of John Knox maintained from Biblical principle that black people were good, but they must keep their place with white people just as children must keep their place with parents. The Dutch Reform Church of South Africa held strongly to these "biblical principles" until the country was freed from the slavery of Apartheid. Are women any less human than black people? We vilify the radical Muslims for their repression of women, when Adventism, or a segment of it, institutionalizes repression of women, yes, on a different level, yet repression based on the assumed inferiority of women. And it is interesting that the cultures that exhibit the most aggressive sexism against women are primarily from Africa, Central Asia, and Latin America, all areas that have experienced the racism of slavery and the Knox theology of race, and/or the radical sexism of Roman Catholicism.

[tinka]

Arguably, the greatest period of peace, prosperity, progress, and expansion in the British Empire was under the leadership of Queen Victoria, who was the last British monarch to rule the government. After Winston Churchill, one of the most respected Prime Ministers was Margaret Thatcher. Queen Elizabeth the first was a powerful leader who seized the throne and brought an end to the Catholic suppression of the realm. When the Emperor Justinian was fleeing Byzantium to escape the revolt, it was Theodora who took control and laid the plans that saved the empire from anarchy. I could go on  for a very long time giving examples of women who were powerful and very capable leaders. The theory that women can't lead is not backed up by history any more than the theory (see the book "When God was a Woman") that men can't lead.

But they were not "ordained" preachers, They were women placed as in Bible days in places where their strength, intellect, and abilities were used in the linage of command (that again, people chose and not the will of the Lord) that the land of "America has not adopted that chain of command but designed now of new "Inspiration" coming direct from God's plan for freedom for the time being.)  Here is the example one must not through out.   Did God want the people to have a King??? No they insisted, So what did God do ?? He let the people have a King.  Now that is the same thing again that Happened with the church when EGW gave consul presented by Holy Spirit. Did the people all 100% do this. Absolutely not!  That is the reason for the testimonies.
 
.

[tinka]

Soon as EGW started writing early and as more and more consuls were presented and she presented along with her own thoughts of her personal beliefs, she soon discovered people that wrote her hundreds of letters on their own questions, mostly to justify or ask further their lack of simple judgements to define her to state more in their own directions - she soon realized she had to write Testimonies TO THE CHURCH!! where she inserted most letters and statements of corrections of peoples self views even to one place she stated to one man he was like a "broken stick".  She had to write  many, many letters back to correct wrong understanding, fanaticism. extremes of her views and on and on the peoples, concerns, and what did they do, they took one letter to one and used it against the other.

One example. - To one family she addressed because the whole family was obese she stated "You should never eat another egg."  Now, as the people read that and did not take into consideration the rest of letter and reasoning what do you think came out of that because they did not read where she was just addressing that family.  fanaticism developed they should never  eat butter, milk or eggs,  - now did she have to go and write again to counter act that absolutely yes! Did that solve the problem..no it did not but it is definitely clear for record for those who's mind and time seek all. But still used to this day to extremes. Then clearly she writes "do not make yourself weak until times demands it. But still those words are made to mean again something else. Are we now at that time, yep pretty close.

If you go down through the Testimonies and view all subjects she has to address, because of the people and their unwillingness to follow simply -  just know she understood just what was happening with the same on these posts today here and now.

Are there credentials laying on top of a bureau at her Home, probably so, is that where she laid them, who knows or someone else, no one nor my self  denied what the church did and went beyond her realm of comments on what she gave and related by pen then what they perceived to do was their own desires and reasoning- no matter what she said or felt.  Several times she mentions she did "not want to make waves".

 Now and continually the same situation on all subjects that were addressed in Testimonies you see the same thing happening on larger scale of people finding loop holes to present their own wants and theories instead of just taking it simple and knowing that it sometimes take more then one of her books to know her points do not change. The same in Bible, you have to maybe read several books till the answer is clear. 

Reading the Bible first then, her writings I knew the "Inspiration was given exactly the same way and from the same source.

But the reason for testimonies for the church is the very same thing that is happening right now that happened back then. 

She states clearly that she was "ordained of God and not man". At that time she presents that ordaining simply meant that she gave the exact message as was given to her and the men that carried that message was honest in presenting it as was give to EGW. That is all it meant but the church followed its own will not hers. 

Here it best clue you can go by....show me where she asked to be ordained HERSELF as the other women did. They had laying on hands to be deaconesses and the women's movement was on the march for many things at that time.

 EGW did state their should be women doctors that can care for women patients. So yes, women have a field to labor in for  women, the poor, womanly duties. As in Biblical days certain women were called to work the will of God as it was God's (remember) 3rd choice before EGW  agreed to the task that previous men did not do. So when women think they are specially called to take on an EGW they better think whether its just a cow bellowing off the hillside somewhere doing the calling. There are many good women in
Adventist church that accomplish and work well but do it without self involved or making waves with credentials. No credentials were not need for EGW to advance the "servant of God". In fact the church came after the "messenger" of God" proceeded with task. 

I's very less confusion to read all the scenarios for cause and change then just simply read every word of God's last message to a last day people of "whom with tears penned said" that in the end would be very few saved from SDA and other sheep from other folds would come to the front lines in the end. so there you go simple but sure...  It is just as important not to add or take away from what God has inspired to write for this age or era. Your either believe or you don't. or change about the worship, music, who should be ordained as scripture states who, jewelry, evolution, and in every subject of man's own desires or just a little wine will do ya!!  There will always be wave makers, EGW was not a wave maker! She continued till the end with the waves roaring higher and higher.

[tinka]

Obviously, there are capable women just as there were in Jesus time. It is an interesting note that all the disciples were men. This thread reminds me of the temptation of Adam and Eve. God told Adam and Eve not to eat of the forbidden tree, why, because he said so. But Eve after she looked at the fruit and saw it was beautiful and could make one wise she did eat of it and gave it to her husband and he ate also. Sometimes God tells you to do something and expects you to do it simply because he said to do it. The woman's roll is clearly defind in the bible by God. The woman is to keep quiet and not try to be over her husband but someone has looked on her and said she looks good enough to do what she wants even though God has said no. Every time we do things our way instead of Gods way we end up in trouble. I can clearly see the woman once again taking the fruit and telling the man you see how beautiful I have become? But in the end it is the men that suffer and loses their rightful position and the woman is left once again in pain and in subjection to the man (her desire is to her husband) as God originally intended. I am not so sure that Eve will even be in heaven because of the original sin that she first committed after Satan started the ball rolling.

Read Desire of ages on Eve and find out...Hmmmm

[Bob Pickle]

I had no idea about that sort of dynamic, no idea that women don't work well together if there is a woman in charge.

What planet have you visited where you saw such women?

As I stated before, this was not my own observation. This was an observation made by women who were part of a college class, and they expressed this previously made observation after watching a film where women leading women descended into anarchy.

So you should probably be asking the women who made the observation what planet they visited.

[Bob Pickle]

Obviously, there are capable women just as there were in Jesus time. It is an interesting note that all the disciples were men. This thread reminds me of the temptation of Adam and Eve. God told Adam and Eve not to eat of the forbidden tree, why, because he said so. But Eve after she looked at the fruit and saw it was beautiful and could make one wise she did eat of it and gave it to her husband and he ate also. Sometimes God tells you to do something and expects you to do it simply because he said to do it. The woman's roll is clearly defind in the bible by God. The woman is to keep quiet and not try to be over her husband but someone has looked on her and said she looks good enough to do what she wants even though God has said no. Every time we do things our way instead of Gods way we end up in trouble. I can clearly see the woman once again taking the fruit and telling the man you see how beautiful I have become? But in the end it is the men that suffer and loses their rightful position and the woman is left once again in pain and in subjection to the man (her desire is to her husband) as God originally intended. I am not so sure that Eve will even be in heaven because of the original sin that she first committed after Satan started the ball rolling.

I haven't read anything in the SoP that says that Eve will be in heaven, but I do remember reading that Eve was the one who helped Adam accept by faith the promise of the Redeemer. I don't recall where.

A woman told me that she had noticed that women who are more of a spiritual leader than their husband sometimes run into fanaticism or strange theology. That observation, made by a woman, goes along with the biblical account of the Fall.

As far as preaching goes, there are a lot of men who preach some strange things, I know that. Yet one notable sermon by a lady senior pastor stands out in my mind. She told the large congregation that we are justified when we partly obey God, since Abraham was justified when he partly obeyed God: Abraham disobeyed when he left Haran because he took Lot with him; he was supposed to leave all his family behind. She also said that circumcision was an act of faith, because what if the knife slipped. I did not believe those statements to be accurate, correct, or appropriate.

Is that an unusual case? Is it unusual for a lady senior pastor of large reputation in a large church to be that off base in a sermon?

[Bob Pickle]

In the matter of racism, people are considered inferior because of the colour of their skin. In the matter of sexism, people are considered inferior because of their sex.

"He is bound to his family by sacred, holy ties. Every member of the family centers in the father. His name, 'house-band,' is the true definition of husband. He is the lawmaker, illustrating in his own manly bearing the sterner virtues, energy, integrity, honesty, and practical usefulness" (1T 547).

"The father should enforce in his family the sterner virtues--energy, integrity, honesty, patience, courage, diligence, and practical usefulness. And what he requires of his children he himself should practice, illustrating these virtues in his own manly bearing" (MH 391).

So Ellen White held this view throughout her ministry, as the dates of these two publications are near the beginning and the end of it.

"The refining, softening influence of Christian women is needed in the great work of preaching the truth" (RH 1-2-1879).

"I do not recommend that woman should seek to become a voter or an officer-holder; but as a missionary, teaching the truth by epistolary correspondence, distributing tracts and soliciting subscribers for periodicals containing the solemn truth for this time, she may do very much. In conversing with families, in praying with the mother and children, she will be a blessing" (RH 12-19-78).

It would seem mighty strange to accuse Ellen White of being a sexist, of being discriminatory against women.

I'm not finding quotes that list the stronger attributes of Christian women, similar to the statements about fathers above. Anyone remember reading anything along those lines? I remember there being some, but can't remember the words that are used.

[Snoopy]

I had no idea about that sort of dynamic, no idea that women don't work well together if there is a woman in charge.

What planet have you visited where you saw such women?

As I stated before, this was not my own observation. This was an observation made by women who were part of a college class, and they expressed this previously made observation after watching a film where women leading women descended into anarchy.

So you should probably be asking the women who made the observation what planet they visited.

I have worked for both men and women who were inept at managing or being "in charge".  Such is not the basis for making a rash generalization about either.

[Snoopy]

I don't think the women in our class were trying to say that men have superior leadership skills. That's not how I remember it.

What's the difference between wanting to have a man in charge and saying that men have superior leadership skills?  Semantics?  And lets remember that your comments are derived from the responses of the women in your class, which is NOT representative of women in general!!

Working for any individual who has no leadership skills, MALE or FEMALE, is a miserable experience.

[princessdi]

You know, historically, there qere 3-+ women who were ordained.  ia m also sure that in an earlier discussion here that more detailed information was given, that also included Pastor Johann submetting that women were often ordained in parts of Europe during wars, etc.  I am not sure if this info included the womeon's names,though.  I guess I will have to make it a matter ofresearch to find that info.

That being said, you know that is secondary to the biblical accounts.  Yes, women can be chosen as prophets.  WHO choses the prophets?  AND were prophets not in spiritual authority to everyone in the Bible, priests, kings, etc.?  So God puts women in spiritual authority, but somehow some belief that Paul then changed that in the NT even though the instances of female authority, both political and spiritual, do not result in the disasterous issues as so many of their male counterparts.  Now, we believe God changed His mind because......? 

So, my question is this.  Since we see that God's own example is to put women in political and spiritual authority, at what point do we feel the need to over turn the decisions of an omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient God of which we claim to be followers.  Are you saying that He made a bad decision in this area and the man He created  knows better?  Once again, since God's own example is there and clear in the Bible, I am going with that. This thing some of you have going seems like a bit of rebellion to me. 

Di, no one questions whether a woman can be called to be a prophet.

Do you know the names of any women ordained prior to Ellen White's death?

The 1881 GC Session did not approve a resolution to ordain women, and that was the only resolution of 40 that they did not approve. On what basis do you think that this only became an issue after Ellen White died in 1915, when that resolution was not adopted 34 years earlier?

[Snoopy]

You know, historically, there qere 3-+ women who were ordained.  ia m also sure that in an earlier discussion here that more detailed information was given, that also included Pastor Johann submetting that women were often ordained in parts of Europe during wars, etc.  I am not sure if this info included the womeon's names,though.  I guess I will have to make it a matter ofresearch to find that info.

That being said, you know that is secondary to the biblical accounts.  Yes, women can be chosen as prophets.  WHO choses the prophets?  AND were prophets not in spiritual authority to everyone in the Bible, priests, kings, etc.?  So God puts women in spiritual authority, but somehow some belief that Paul then changed that in the NT even though the instances of female authority, both political and spiritual, do not result in the disasterous issues as so many of their male counterparts.  Now, we believe God changed His mind because......? 

So, my question is this.  Since we see that God's own example is to put women in political and spiritual authority, at what point do we feel the need to over turn the decisions of an omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient God of which we claim to be followers.  Are you saying that He made a bad decision in this area and the man He created  knows better?  Once again, since God's own example is there and clear in the Bible, I am going with that. This thing some of you have going seems like a bit of rebellion to me. 

Di, no one questions whether a woman can be called to be a prophet.

Do you know the names of any women ordained prior to Ellen White's death?

The 1881 GC Session did not approve a resolution to ordain women, and that was the only resolution of 40 that they did not approve. On what basis do you think that this only became an issue after Ellen White died in 1915, when that resolution was not adopted 34 years earlier?

Excellent post, princessdi!  You so well articulated what I could not.