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[Johann]

Here is that quote:

"There are some in ----- who ought to be men instead of boys and heavenly minded instead of earthly and sensual; but their spiritual vision has become obscured; the Saviour’s great love has not ravished their souls. He has many things to say unto you, but you cannot bear them now. You are children in growth and cannot comprehend the mysteries of God. When God raises up men to do His work, they are false to their trust if they allow their testimony to be shaped to please the minds of the unconsecrated. He will prepare men for the times. They will be humble, God-fearing men, not conservative, not policy men; but men who have moral independence and will move forward in the fear of the Lord. They will be kind, noble, courteous; yet they will not be swayed from the right path, but will proclaim the truth in righteousness whether men will hear or whether they will forbear". {5T 263.1}

[Bob Pickle]

Maybe the problem is that you don't presently want to be convinced. But I don't see any way that you can pretend that that statement is talking about organizing churches and baptizing rather than about the work of a deaconess. If you disagree, then quote that quote again here, or show us which language within that quote is talking about baptizing and organizing churches.

To me that seems to be your problem, Bob. I did quote before a place where Ellen White states - now in my words - that it is only immature kids who hang on to such church rules that disregard  kindness and progress in the church.

Johann,

We aren't talking about mere church rules. We are talking about instruction that God gave us as a people through the Spirit of inspiration.

"Both Paul and Barnabas had been laboring as ministers of Christ, and God had abundantly blessed their efforts; but neither of them had previously been formally ordained to the gospel ministry by prayer and the laying on of hands. They were now authorized by the church, not only to teach the truth, but to baptize, and to organize churches, being invested with full ecclesiastical authority" (LP 42).

I already quoted the above before. In the NT, ordination was a way for the NT church to authorize someone to baptize and organize churches. Part of organizing churches is ordaining elders and deacons.

But there are those in our church today who want to rebel against gospel order, and these basic concepts.

[Johann]

Maybe the problem is that you don't presently want to be convinced. But I don't see any way that you can pretend that that statement is talking about organizing churches and baptizing rather than about the work of a deaconess. If you disagree, then quote that quote again here, or show us which language within that quote is talking about baptizing and organizing churches.

To me that seems to be your problem, Bob. I did quote before a place where Ellen White states - now in my words - that it is only immature kids who hang on to such church rules that disregard  kindness and progress in the church.

Johann,

We aren't talking about mere church rules. We are talking about instruction that God gave us as a people through the Spirit of inspiration.

"Both Paul and Barnabas had been laboring as ministers of Christ, and God had abundantly blessed their efforts; but neither of them had previously been formally ordained to the gospel ministry by prayer and the laying on of hands. They were now authorized by the church, not only to teach the truth, but to baptize, and to organize churches, being invested with full ecclesiastical authority" (LP 42).

I already quoted the above before. In the NT, ordination was a way for the NT church to authorize someone to baptize and organize churches. Part of organizing churches is ordaining elders and deacons.

But there are those in our church today who want to rebel against gospel order, and these basic concepts.

During my half century of ministry, not only in different countries, but also in different continents, I have  unfortunately not experienced many churches being organized. Even when we baptized more than a hundred new members, they were usually added to one or more already existing churches. New churches, that I have experienced, have usually started as small branch Sabbath schools, led by lay people where some had already served as elder or deacon in the mother church. They became new churches by vote by a conference general assembly. Some did not require a pastor. In other cases a pastor was assigned by the vote of the general assembly or the administration.

Just recently a pastor, who has reached retirement age, buried one of the last two members of the church where he served as a pastor. The sole surviving member then had her membership transferred to another church in the vicinity, so now there are no members left in his church. Although he is a male and ordained pastor, he does not have the authority to dis-organize the church. That will not happen until the conference has its next assembly which will vote on dismissing the church. Such is the working policy.

I think your argument about women not capable of organizing churches falls under those "rules" EGW classifies as rules upheld by boys and not mature men.

[Bob Pickle]

I think your argument about women not capable of organizing churches falls under those "rules" EGW classifies as rules upheld by boys and not mature men.

Nowhere did Ellen White ever say that women should fill the role of organizing churches.

[Artiste]

being invested with full ecclesiastical authority" (LP 42).

I think this is an important point.

As Bob already pointed out, if Ellen White had been exercising "full ecclesiastical authority" she would have told the church leaders what to do and then required them to toe the line, rather than just counseling them and giving them messages from the Lord.

[Artiste]

In looking through the "Christ or Culture" petition, which is now heading rapidly toward 7,000 signatures, I saw an interesting comment from one of the women--

It appears to me to be a status thing and I'm not about to address ANY women as 'Pastor'! Valerie J. Perkins

But many of the men in the church are saying, "No, but you have to...we said so!".

[Johann]

I think your argument about women not capable of organizing churches falls under those "rules" EGW classifies as rules upheld by boys and not mature men.

Nowhere did Ellen White ever say that women should fill the role of organizing churches.

Because Ellen White did say that some women should be ordained, but never once did she say that women are not to be orddained.

[Daryl Fawcett]

This is more my concern also, as I just posted in another related thread.

So who is right: the breakaway Unions, or the Seventh-day Adventist General Conference leadership?

Good question.

There is no easy answer to that question.

While it can easily be argued that the question of women's ordination is not an easy question, the same cannot be said about what is the highest ecclesiastical authority within the Seventh-day Adventist Church. Thus, the GC leadership on that specific point are unquestionably and indisputably right.

I am more troubled regarding the change the unions are attempting to make regarding how we view the authority of a GC Session than regarding the change the unions are attempting to make regarding how we view women's ordination.