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[Artiste]

Women's Ordination advocates are all for treating women equally, even when new responsibilities might require women to leave their children for others to raise, put themselves at physical or psychological risk, or even forgo having a family so they can reach for a more elevated position in society.

It is possible that those advocates might think that Freudian issues are involved when others protest against WO.

What about the Freudian references?  Does believing in the Biblical doctrine of male headship stem from some unresolved mother issues?

And what is the current feeling as to the validity for "Freudian" thinking?

A 2004 Los Angeles Times article authored by Todd Dufresne, a professor at the Northern Ontario Medical School, started out with this statement:

Arguably no other notable figure in history was as wrong as Freud was about every important thing he had to say.

However, Freud's influence lives on...in some circles, anyway.  After commenting on the large number of books, reviews, and lectures that promotied Freud's thinking, and then listing the numerous beliefs of Freud that have been debunked, the article goes on to say,

But, luckily for him, academics have been -- and still are -- infinitely creative in their efforts to whitewash his errors, even as lay readers grow increasingly dumbfounded by the entire mess

.

So it is not completely surprising that some pseudo intellectuals continue to bring up Freud.  But is it valid?

[Dedication]

AntiWOs obviously feel that men will lose their "manhood" if women are granted spiritual leadership roles.

For them it appears to be a "them or us" position.
Why not reconcile and work in unity?


The question that arises is --
Why are men afraid they will lose their "manhood" and their spiritual leadership roles if women are also allowed to be recognized and ordained (set apart for the work) ministers.

As far as children--
The world is overpopulated so there is no problem if a woman forgoes having a family in order to serve the Lord.
In fact there is both Biblical and spirit of Prophecy support for that.



Not sure why someone would think they put themselves to physical or psychological risk if women want to be set apart to spend their life working for the Lord.
I suppose the persecution that comes to all who work for Christ may be a risk, but are they supposed to fear that and refuse to answer God's call.

A lot more women died from childbirth than from following a career.  Of course now modern medicine has reduced the risk, but in years past being pregnant was a pretty scary thing.

In our society most women work outside the home.
Whether women are ordained to ministry or not, that situation won't change.
Every woman is faced with the decision to take time out for family or not.

[Dedication]

Does believing in the Biblical doctrine of male headship stem from some unresolved mother issues?

Where in scripture does it say
MEN must be the head of the church?

[Murcielago]

I have often wondered about this. I do know that there are many reasons why people oppose WO. We could eliminate the Freud question, and just refer to men who have particular issues with women in general, such as fear, hatred, disdain, disrespect, or view them as objects, and so forth. Unfortunately there have been boarding schools within some Adventist circles that have fostered an unhealthy environment in regards to the relationship between the sexes, and produced men and women who who didn't know how to relate in a healthy manner, some for a time, and others never. I went to one of them, and in this school girls were not allowed to learn computer, and they were held back in a variety of areas. They were to learn the wifely things, gain a modest scholastic education (unrecognized by any school outside of these circles), while boys were to learn toward more advanced goals. This policy was a part of the school culture and boys learned that these were the proper roles. Many of these "schools" tended to be the little groups who came to the ASIs looking for donations, although some of them are now the mainstream of ASI.

[Johann]

Does believing in the Biblical doctrine of male headship stem from some unresolved mother issues?

Where in scripture does it say
MEN must be the head of the church?

This is a Catholic tradition that the Seventh-day Adventist Church has never adopted.

[Dedication]

Christ is the head of the church.

For a man to set himself up as the HEAD in the church -- as "god" sitting in the church, is described in 2 Thess. 2 and it is not a favorable mention.

Yes, the church is to have leadership -- but it is to be a "servant leadership" not an authoritarian leadership.

When we look at the texts where "woman are to be silent in church" everyone (as far as I can see) already agrees that doesn't mean they can't teach, share, prophecy and even preach in church.

However, they are to first go home and LEARN, -- women in those days didn't have the opportunity to learn scripture like men.   A few did learn, but most did not.   So how could they teach?  They were not to disrupt the service with their questions, but to go home and the husbands were to teach them!   The men were to open the often closed door so the women could become intelligent on spiritual matters.
   But obviously from the same scriptures we see women who DID learn and knew the truths and they were in leadership positions, teaching and sharing the gospel right along with the men.

Paul neither elevates women over men nor men over women when it comes to spiritual teaching, but is rather concerned that men and women be granted equal opportunity to learn and grow in submission to one another and to God (1 Timothy 2:11; cf. Ephesians 5:21). 

Women should not aspire to gain the "headship" .   For women to "have authority over men" the present situation would have to be reversed -- Ordained Women in all leadership roles while men only receive "commissioned" licenses and are denied ordination.

Of course that is WRONG!
For the work to flourish there is to be total consecration to the Lord of both men and women who go out to prepare people for the soon coming of Christ the Lord.

 

 

[Daryl Fawcett]

I hope you all realize that there are also a lot of women who don't believe that the ordination of women is biblical, therefore, this is far from being a man thing.

[Murcielago]

I hope you all realize that there are also a lot of women who don't believe that the ordination of women is biblical, therefore, this is far from being a man thing.

Very good point, and there are lots of women who live with abuse for whatever their reasons. Also, I know that in the schools such as I was talking about, the unhealthy attitudes towards women were also built into the women.

[Artiste]

It gets a little tiresome hearing men speaking for women.

[Murcielago]

It gets a little tiresome hearing men speaking for women.

Good point. (Btw, here in the PUC we get to hear the women speak for themselves more... [ducking and running] Lol! I couldn't help it.  )

[Artiste]

And I'm not speaking for myself right here...?

[Johann]

I hope you all realize that there are also a lot of women who don't believe that the ordination of women is biblical, therefore, this is far from being a man thing.

I wonder if anyone of them would be able to show me from the Bible or the Spirit of Prophecy that the ordination of women is not biblical? Nobody has shown me that yet.

[Artiste]

And I'm not speaking for myself right here...?

(Apparently women are only allowed to speak for themselves when they agree with PUC, CUC, and european men on WO.)

[Murcielago]

And I'm not speaking for myself right here...?

(Apparently women are only allowed to speak for themselves when they agree with PUC, CUC, and european men on WO.)

Not at all! We here-at least in the PUC-believe women should speak for themselves, have their own say, and be who and what they want to be. And I doubt anyone here would presume to speak for you. You speak for yourself.

[Daryl Fawcett]

I hope you all realize that there are also a lot of women who don't believe that the ordination of women is biblical, therefore, this is far from being a man thing.

I wonder if anyone of them would be able to show me from the Bible or the Spirit of Prophecy that the ordination of women is not biblical? Nobody has shown me that yet.

I know one lady personally who was ordained as a local elder, was the Head Elder of one of our local churches, who told me recently that she no longer recognizes her ordination since believing that it is not biblical.   Perhaps I can ask her how she came to that conclusion.