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[Hakim]

Hi folks!

I  would like to introduce the topic of the Everlasting Covenant.
The reason for this: In recent years the attacks against the Sabbath and against the Law of God have centered about the covenant. So I started reading books, articles, and listening to speakers. I would have to say that Adventists do not have a unified doctrine on the covenant. In fact, some of the concepts I have heard promoted would play right into the hands of the dispensationalists.

Why is this important? In the covenant is the basis and framework for our doctrines, prophecies, and the meaning of God's interactions with mankind. When you understand the covenant, all these things fall into place.

There are several critical issues: How was the covenant established in the first place? What relation do the covenants (plural) have to the covenant (singular)? What was the old covenant? What is the new covenant? and what does the New Testament say about the covenant?

Admittedly, this IS an ambitious project. I don't expect everyone to agree with me. I do hope that each person will read carefully what is said by me and by others and give carefully thought out responses. In order to make progress in understanding truth, each of us needs to be open minded and be willing to accept truth when it is presented.

More later for an exciting trip!
Hakim ("doc" in Amharic)

[inga]

A very important topic, Hakim. I understand your concern because I, too, have read explanations of "covenants" (plural) that would play into the hands of dispensationalists. I look forward to further thoughts from you.

[Artiste]

  to AdventTalk, Hakim!

I also am very interested in the study of the Everlasting Covenant and have looked into it at length in the past, but mainly in the terms of what is said about it in the Old Testament.  (Not sure where else reliable and trustworthy information about it would be obtained, except in the New Testament, of course.)

Which concepts have you run into that would play into the hands of the dispensationalists?

[Hakim]

Covenant Beginning

Statement:
Before Creation there was a council within the Godhead to formulate the Plan of Salvation to be put in use only if man should use his power of choice wrongly, and choose to sin.

Who is the Godhead?
This term is used in the Bible three times (Acts 17:29; Rom 1:20; Col 2:9).

Paul made this statement in his address to the philosophers in Athens:

    “Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device” (Acts 17:29).

On his third missionary journey, while in Corinth, Paul wrote to the Christians in Rome. He hoped soon to visit Rome. In preparation for this he wrote this epistle, outlining in strong clear terms the great principles of the Gospel:

    “being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse” (Romans 1:20).

Paul lived and preached in Ephesus for three years. People from all over western Asia (present day Turkey) traveled to and from Ephesus. Probably Paul never went to Colossae, but from his work in Ephesus the gospel spread to all western Asia.

    “For in him (Christ) dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily” (Colossians 2:9).

Who are the persons who make up the Godhead?These are phrases from a number of verses that name the Father, Son and Holy Ghost:

• Isaiah 11:1-5 “the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, ... the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; ... of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD:”
• Isaiah 48:16 “and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.”
• Isaiah 61:1 “The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me;... the LORD hath anointed me to preach”
• Matthew 3:16, 17 “he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased”
• Matthew 28:19-20 “Baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost”
• 1 Corinthians 12:3-4 “No man speaking by the Spirit of God ... can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost”
• 2 Corinthians 13:14 “The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all.”
• Ephesians 2:18 “For through him (Jesus) we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.”

Comment:
To best study the Covenant, I would recommend the historical approach. By establishing one point at a time, we will be less confused. So If you don't mind, I will put off the question about dispensationialism for now. The first and most important point is to determine the beginning of the covenant -- how it was established. In this post I hope to show that there IS a Godhead composed of Three Persons.
-------------------------
Hakim

[Hakim]

The Council in Heaven

Now that we understand that the Godhead is made up of three persons – the Father, Son and Holy Ghost, we are ready to speak of the Council in Heaven. In that Council an agreement was reached on what was the "will of God." The Father would give the Son; the Son would give Himself; and the Holy Spirit would make effectual the grace of God in the hearts of men.

    . . . . “For God so loved the world that he gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life” (John 3:16).
    . . . . “...I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again....” (John 10:17,18).
    . . . . "Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me,
    . . . . "I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart” (Psalms 40:6-10; see also Hebrews 10:7).


It is important here to realize that the covenant is about what God can do, not about what man can do. It is about Jesus Christ, His life on earth, and His sacrifice on Calvary. In this is the promise of eternal life and for restoration of everything that was lost in Eden.

This was referred to as “my covenant” fifty one times in the Bible. You will also find the term “everlasting covenant” sixteen times in the Bible. If you understand this foundation principle you will go a long way to understand covenant language in the rest of the Bible.

When was this Council in Heaven?

• "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." Revelation 13:8 KJV
• "the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world." Revelation 13:8 NIV
• "the Lamb that was slain [in sacrifice] from the foundation of the world." Revelation 13:8 AMP
• "stood a Lamb ... for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood." Rev. 5:6-9
• "Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and Honour, and glory, and blessing." Revelation 5:12 KJV
• "Who (Christ, the Lamb) verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you," 1 Peter 1:20 KJV
• "inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:" Matthew 25:34

When Jesus came to the Jordan to be baptized by John the Baptist, John immediately identified Him, “Behold, the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world” (John 1:29). The Messiah is also identified as the Lamb to be slain in Isaiah 53. The decision for Jesus, the Second Person of the Godhead, to play this role was established in Council in Heaven before Creation of this earth. Jesus Christ is the focus and the center of the everlasting covenant.

Comment:
I realize that much of what I have posted is elementary to most on this forum. In another forum, these were points that were challenged repeatedly. Thus, a person must understand even elementary points before we can proceed to deeper understandings.
-------------------------
Hakim

[Fair Havens]

Thank you Hakim. This newborn really desires the sincere the sincere milk.

How does this fit with God's promise of land to Abraham or of Moses receiving the Tablets. Those were covenants too weren't they?

[Hakim]

Fair Havens,

Each time the covenant was renewed, God made promises. These promises were often different, unique. On this basis many have felt that there were a number of covenants that God made with men.

When Adam sinned, he chose to serve another "god," in this case Satan. Adam lost the dominion of this earth to Satan. Satan now had legal control as "Prince of this world."

Remember Genesis 2:17?  "In the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."  Some have read this as meaning "dying thou shalt die."  This is OK, and it fits what we observe -- people started to get old and to die from that time.

However, there was something else:  Before the sun set that day, Jesus Christ came and brought the guilty pair into the covenant (Genesis 3:15). "I will put enmity between thee (Satan) and the woman (mankind)."  Mankind would be given a conscience, an innate feeling for what was right. They would not be helpless before Satan.

But did Jesus have a right to intervene and take away Satan's prize? NO! Except, He also gave the promise of the Sin Bearer who would buy back all that was lost in Eden. "It shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel."  He could do so only through suffering, but Sin and Satan would eventually be completely destroyed. This is what is called "prolepsis", acting as if a future event has already occurred.

It is from the sacrifice of Jesus on Calvary that all promises and blessings to mankind flow. The focus of the covenant is Jesus Christ and His sacrifice on Calvary. Without His sacrifice, there is no covenant. With His sacrifice, by faith, God was free to intervene with promises and blessings to Abraham, Israel, to David and Solomon, and with the New Covenant in Jeremiah.

This is a lot to swallow all at once.  Please feel free to ask questions and make comments.
--------------------------
Hubert F. Sturges

[Johann]

And I encourage you to continue these interesting presentations.

[Fair Havens]

The Council in Heaven

Now that we understand that the Godhead is made up of three persons – the Father, Son and Holy Ghost, ... .
-------------------------
Hakim

In reading the New Testament I have noticed that the Apostle Paul in many of his letters to the various churches often begins by invoking(?) God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. [e.g.  1Cor 1:3; 11Cor 1:2; Gal 1:3; Eph. 1:2.] He does not mention the Holy Spirit at all in those instances. I have wondered why he does not mention the Holy Spirit. Why
this inconsistency? What then, is the role of the Holy Spirit in the Covenant? So much is still unclear to me.

[Hakim]

Fair Havens,

If things are still unclear to you that is good!  I am a third generation SDA, went through all our schools through medical school, and some things are still unclear to me! The basic truths of the Gospel are simple and easy to understand. Children can understand what is needed. Uneducated natives overseas can understand salvation truth.  However, having said that, it is important for each person to understand as much about the Bible as his mind can understand. If a "PhD" has only a 4th grade understanding of the Bible, he will be deceived on Evolution as well as on other things.

So, If you recognize that you are unclear, and if you are still studying you are in good company.  Just stay with it.

About the Holy Spirit: I too have noticed that the Holy Spirit is not talked about as much as the Father and the Son. In fact, in the Council in Heaven when the covenant was established, nothing is said about the Holy Spirit. God does not make mistakes. Something like this is done on purpose. I will propose an idea (admitting that I don't really know): God did not intend that we focus on the Holy Spirit except to recognize His work. He knew that the Holy Spirit and His work would be misconstrued in the latter days. Remember in John 3:8 the Holy Spirit is likened to the wind. You cannot see Him, but you can see the effects of His work in the lives of people.
------------------------
Hubert F. Sturges

[inga]

Hubert, I really appreciate what you're doing.

I can already see that we're very much "on the same page," but I've not seen it laid out like this before.

I appreciate the point you made that God's covenant is about what God does and not about man's activity.

I look forward to your next installments.

[Johann]

- - -
 He knew that the Holy Spirit and His work would be misconstrued in the latter days. Remember in John 3:8 the Holy Spirit is likened to the wind. You cannot see Him, but you can see the effects of His work in the lives of people.
------------------------
Hubert F. Sturges

Do you have any suggestions on how the Holy Spirit might be miscinstrued in our times?

[Hakim]

Johann,
I'm sure you have some "tongues speaking" churches in Scandinavia. We even had them in Ethiopia where we spent five years.
Do Adventists have this temptation? Probably not in exactly the same way. But anytime a person accepts a mental impression above the revealed Word of God, isn't he doing the same thing?

Let me step on some toes and present something: I have often heard the statement that "God did not give me the talent of going door-to-door." Maybe this is true in some cases. But is it Biblical? If you put yourself in the path of God's will, will He not give you the talent? Is it all that hard?  Yes! For the first house. Then the Spirit takes over and gives you an experience you will not forget.

Maybe one hundred years ago there was the "holy flesh" movement in Indiana. Such persons believed that God had so changed them that all their impressions and desires were holy! Interestingly, this was accompanied by a very worldly style of music.  Are we beginning to see some of this in our "contemporary worship" today?

The Willow Creek movement was built on meeting people's "felt needs."  Doctrine and Bible study was downplayed. Just recently they did a study of Willow Creek and found that people's lives were not changed, and that their success was in numbers only.

Well, I'm kinda rambling.
-------------------------------------
Hubert F. Sturges

[Johann]

So there are things we might have to watch out for? It may surprise you to hear that about 6 or 7 years ago I heard a Sabbath sermon in s Scandinavian church where we were told that the spiritual gift the Seventh-day Adventist church was in dire need of was the ability to speak in tongues!

[inga]

Let me step on some toes and present something: I have often heard the statement that "God did not give me the talent of going door-to-door." Maybe this is true in some cases. But is it Biblical? If you put yourself in the path of God's will, will He not give you the talent? Is it all that hard?  Yes! For the first house. Then the Spirit takes over and gives you an experience you will not forget.

Hear ye, hear ye!!

Maybe one hundred years ago there was the "holy flesh" movement in Indiana. Such persons believed that God had so changed them that all their impressions and desires were holy! Interestingly, this was accompanied by a very worldly style of music.  Are we beginning to see some of this in our "contemporary worship" today?

I hadn't connected it to the holy flesh movement, but I get your point. Feeling is interpreted as "spirituality" which is deemed the equivalent of holiness.

The Willow Creek movement was built on meeting people's "felt needs."  Doctrine and Bible study was downplayed. Just recently they did a study of Willow Creek and found that people's lives were not changed, and that their success was in numbers only.

And many of our pastors went to be trained there ... 

And I'm afraid we're not done reaping the results. A number of whole churches have gone out from among us, and there will undoubtedly be more.

I'm saying this from the standpoint of not being opposed to contemporary music per se. (A Might Fortress was once contemporary with a recognized secular tune.) The critical thing with using contemporary music is to choose wisely and interpret appropriately (musically, that is). All music used for worship should be biblical in lyrics, with a singable tune, and the words should be understandable when sung. That means that the accompaniment should not overpower the singing.