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[Snoopy]

It is sad, Ozzie.  I know the same logic can be applied to things I may have said as well.  It is easy to take scripture or SOP and use it to try to point out the speck in someone else's eye while looking past the plank in our own.  Unfortunately it sometimes comes off as not sounding like one might have intended it to sound.  We all have our own perspectives and opinions of what is going on, but I think we all could do well to try to respect the perspectives and opinions of others who may have a different vantage point than our own.

But Snoopy, don't you realise that they don't think those words apply to them. This is just another case of 'abusive behaviour', where people are prepared to hit others over the head with Scripture (in this case, SOP), without thinking how it applies to them.

Just don't expect them to replace themselves in the same situation. They just can't (won't) see it. And... don't speak of loyalty anywhere either, as they wouldn't have a clue what that means either.  So sad. 

Read this prayerfully, GrandmaNettie.  Can you honestly say that you and ImaAnt have followed the counsel in paragraph two?  I have seen and experienced otherwise and have seen clearly documented here and elsewhere that this counsel has not been followed.

The Ellen G. White 1888 Materials (1987), page 144, paragraph 2-3


    Chapter Title: Talk to Ministers

There was a time when Israel could not prevail against their enemies. This was because of Achan's sin. God declared, "Neither will I be with you any more, except ye destroy the accursed thing from among you." God is the same today. If defiling sins are cherished by those who claim to believe the truth, the displeasure of God rests upon the church, and He will not remove it until the members do all in their power to show their hatred for sin, and their determination to cast it out of the church. God is displeased with those who call evil good and good evil. If jealousy, evil surmising, and evil-speaking are allowed to have a place in the church, that church is under the frown of God. It will be spiritually unhealthy until it is cleansed from these sins, for till then God cannot reveal His power to strengthen and elevate His people and give them victory.

God is not pleased with the slothful work done in the churches. He expects His stewards to be true and faithful in giving reproof and correction. They are to expel wrong after the rule God has given in His Word, not according to their own ideas and impulses. No harsh means must be used, no unfair, hasty, impulsive work done. The efforts made to cleanse the church from moral uncleanness must be made in God's way. There must be no partiality, no hypocrisy. There must be no favorites, whose sins are regarded as less sinful than those of others. Oh, how much we all need the baptism of the Holy Ghost. Then we shall always work with the mind of Christ, with kindness, compassion, and sympathy, showing love for the sinner while hating sin with a perfect hatred.

[Habanero]

You are right on a very micro level, but on the macro level the pattern never changes in spite of millenia of passionate rhetoric advocating and claiming the key to change. It has never happened And I don't think it will happen now. Human nature is what it is.

Understanding can sometimes happen but truth? Truth an elusive thing that is very nebulous. It is spread around the world broken up into many tiny pieces, many of them undetectable. We all may have a piece of the truth of various matters, but who has it all?

Sadly, so very true.  I have faith that I can change, that you can change... that there is hope for truth and understanding.  It won't happen by following man's image of God, but by actually discovering for ourselves the true God, and then loving our fellow humans just as deeply and compassionately as He loves us and as we need to love ourselves.

Since the dawn of recorded history people have tried to circumvent human nature, without exception unsuccessfully.
Each player in this drama and each active spectator is acting the same part that has been played thousands of times by counterparts all over the world for as long as there have been people. The names and faces are different but the roles are the same. WE don't change and get it right. History doesn't support that, it just repeats itself again and again. A wheel going round and round.

When will WE change and get it right?

[Johann]

You are right on a very micro level, but on the macro level the pattern never changes in spite of millenia of passionate rhetoric advocating and claiming the key to change. It has never happened And I don't think it will happen now. Human nature is what it is.

Understanding can sometimes happen but truth? Truth an elusive thing that is very nebulous. It is spread around the world broken up into many tiny pieces, many of them undetectable. We all may have a piece of the truth of various matters, but who has it all?

Yes, truth appears often in pieces, and other pieces of truth my give it a different hue when they appear. Does that prevent us from accepting the pieces of truth which have been revealed to us?

When lying lips attempt to give the appearance of truth, what then?

edited to delete a word. . .

[Bob Pickle]

Read this prayerfully, Bob.  Can you honestly say that you and Gailon have followed the counsel in paragraph two?  I have seen and experienced otherwise and have seen clearly documented here and elsewhere that this counsel has not been followed.

I believe you've changed the subject. I raised the issue of knowingly allowing sin in the camp. Of course it must be dealt with appropriately, but we cannot let cautiousness about how to deal with it keep us from dealing with it at all.

When Moses, on returning to the camp, confronted the rebels, his severe rebukes and the indignation he displayed in breaking the sacred tables of the law were contrasted by the people with his brother's pleasant speech and dignified demeanor, and their sympathies were with Aaron. To justify himself, Aaron endeavored to make the people responsible for his weakness in yielding to their demand; but notwithstanding this, they were filled with admiration of his gentleness and patience. But God seeth not as man sees. Aaron's yielding spirit and his desire to please had blinded his eyes to the enormity of the crime he was sanctioning. His course in giving his influence to sin in Israel cost the life of thousands. In what contrast with this was the course of Moses, who, while faithfully executing God's judgments, showed that the welfare of Israel was dearer to him than prosperity or honor or life. (PP 323)

I quote that not to justify harshness, but to point out that sometimes we err in our judgment of whether this one or that one is right or wrong in a controversy such as we are in.

[Habanero]

Yes, truth appears often in pieces, and other pieces of truth my give it a different hue when they appear. Does that prevent us from accepting the pieces of truth which have been revealed to us?

When lying lips attempt to give the appearance of truth, what then?

When lying lips present justification for itching ears then they hear what they want to hear.

edited by Johann to delete a word in my post

[GrandmaNettie]

Yes, human nature is what it is, but within that broad stroke lies the hope I cling to.  Not all humans have a nature with the characteristics or reasoning of Torquemada, or Hitler, or Dahmer, or Travesser or his empty-minded Strong City followers.  There are the Plutarchs and Thoreaus and Dalis and Ghandis and Evoys... the Alice Millers and Habaneros and others who question the status quo in every generation... many who see the intrinsic value of each human soul, who don't tread the rigid road paved by the generations before them but, instead, attempt to make sense out of this existance.  Perhaps what we can garner from each only adds to our understanding, but it is a start.  Perhaps that wheel isn't simply spinning, but going a little bit forward as it goes round and round. 

You are right on a very micro level, but on the macro level the pattern never changes in spite of millenia of passionate rhetoric advocating and claiming the key to change. It has never happened And I don't think it will happen now. Human nature is what it is.

Understanding can sometimes happen but truth? Truth an elusive thing that is very nebulous. It is spread around the world broken up into many tiny pieces, many of them undetectable. We all may have a piece of the truth of various matters, but who has it all?

Sadly, so very true.  I have faith that I can change, that you can change... that there is hope for truth and understanding.  It won't happen by following man's image of God, but by actually discovering for ourselves the true God, and then loving our fellow humans just as deeply and compassionately as He loves us and as we need to love ourselves.

Since the dawn of recorded history people have tried to circumvent human nature, without exception unsuccessfully.
Each player in this drama and each active spectator is acting the same part that has been played thousands of times by counterparts all over the world for as long as there have been people. The names and faces are different but the roles are the same. WE don't change and get it right. History doesn't support that, it just repeats itself again and again. A wheel going round and round.

When will WE change and get it right?

[ERIK]

Since this thread is way off the original topic.


Does it not seem strange to those that mantian that Mr. Joy and Mr. Pickle are why off base.

Fail to do the one thing that would SHUT the mouths of both of these men the fastest.

You ask what might be.

The answer is very simple.

PRODUCE  the the proof that Linda shelton was in fact having an affair on danny that gives him grounds for the divorce.

I mean AFTER ALL linda double even tripled dared all danny's  defenders to do so.  Take her up and lets end this today.

and well your are at have tommy issue a simple and clear denial of the  horrible actions he is accused of doing.  not a many page rambling  mess that is his only public statement on the issue.

the beauty of doing those two things will be quickly seen when Mr. Joy and Mr. pickle show up barefoot to stand in the sun or snow begging Mr. gilley for the right to go on air and admit they were wrong and that they need Danny and 3abn to forgive them.

then the court case can quietly be settled  and the internet forums will go away. 

The little issues with t e IRS can be handled  in quiet manner as well the fines paid, or a letter from the IRS clearing 3abn of any wrong doing issued.


And we can all get on with the important work at hand which is saving souls.

OTHERWISE,   be quiet and accept the fact that THERE is SIN IN THE CAMP AND IT IS GROSS SIN. and needs to be cleansed in a manner that is redeeming for all parties so that none are lost but all are neighbors in heaven.

In fact i can see the Banner headlines in the New Jerusalem Post " Mr Joy and Mr. thomason share a background agreeablely"  OR "Mr. Pickle and Mr. shelton are best of neighbors."


See truth has this funny thing called evidence that goes along with it.

For example the bible says that god created the heavens and the earth., and there is tons of evidence to back it up.

Danny says Linda is a cheating harlot.(in so many words)  no evidence to prooved on has to wonder if the story is true.


I could on and on about this but will not.

In closing wonder if the truth is so strongly in danny's favor why the  3abn lawyers seem to want to hid the truth so much?

[SDAminister]

Bob, do you believe that there is no sin among the leadership of the Seventh-day Adventist church?  Rather unlikely, don't you think? Where is the SaveTheSDAChurch website or discussion forum?   Do you believe that in your investigation of 3abn you and Gailon are doing God's work?  Are you sinless as you proceed?  Are you obeying God completely?  Are you requiring that everyone who helps you in this endeavor conducts themselves in total obedience to God?   

GrandmaNettie,
Hey, easy now. You're not doing our friends at 3ABN by putting forth such a polemic. That's the old weak argument like:  "Officer, why are you pulling me over for speeding when there are drug dealers and murderers out there walking the streets freely."
And BTW, there are already many websites out there exposing problems with the SDA church. Do we really need another one?

And, if I may take the side of Pickle/Joy for a moment: There are systems in place for dealing with problems within the SDA church. Elder Folkenberg was removed from his post by those vested with church authority after an investigation revealed certain indiscretions committed by Elder Folkenberg were unbecoming a president of the SDA church.
I must say, I have noted that the Pickle camp have requested a similar investigation be done in this matter, but apparently there are currently no mechanisms within 3ABN to deal with such matters at this time.

Perhaps there are lessons for all in this matter for the proper ways to deal with conflict resolution.
 

[GrandmaNettie]

Bob, do you believe that there is no sin among the leadership of the Seventh-day Adventist church?  Rather unlikely, don't you think? Where is the SaveTheSDAChurch website or discussion forum?   Do you believe that in your investigation of 3abn you and Gailon are doing God's work?  Are you sinless as you proceed?  Are you obeying God completely?  Are you requiring that everyone who helps you in this endeavor conducts themselves in total obedience to God?   

GrandmaNettie,
Hey, easy now. You're not doing our friends at 3ABN by putting forth such a polemic. That's the old weak argument like:  "Officer, why are you pulling me over for speeding when there are drug dealers and murderers out there walking the streets freely."
And BTW, there are already many websites out there exposing problems with the SDA church. Do we really need another one?

And, if I may take the side of Pickle/Joy for a moment: There are systems in place for dealing with problems within the SDA church. Elder Folkenberg was removed from his post by those vested with church authority after an investigation revealed certain indiscretions committed by Elder Folkenberg were unbecoming a president of the SDA church.
I must say, I have noted that the Pickle camp have requested a similar investigation be done in this matter, but apparently there are currently no mechanisms within 3ABN to deal with such matters at this time.

Perhaps there are lessons for all in this matter for the proper ways to deal with conflict resolution.
 

Some interesting food for thought.....

I would, perhaps, not liken my weak, albeit polemic, argument to ""Officer, why are you pulling me over for speeding when there are drug dealers and murderers out there walking the streets freely."  That would just be diversionary.  More true to the intent of my post would be "Officer, do you hold yourself to the same standard as you are holding me and others to?"

Yes, I do believe there are lessons in this matter for the proper ways to deal with conflict resolution.  In fact, that sounds like an excellent topic for further discussion.

[Fran]

Posted on: Today at 09:01:52 PM;  Posted by: GrandmaNettie

Yes, I do believe there are lessons in this matter for the proper ways to deal with conflict resolution.  In fact, that sounds like an excellent topic for further discussion.

Are you changing the topic of the thread?   Or are you opening a new one?

[GrandmaNettie]

Posted on: Today at 09:01:52 PM;  Posted by: GrandmaNettie

Yes, I do believe there are lessons in this matter for the proper ways to deal with conflict resolution.  In fact, that sounds like an excellent topic for further discussion.

Are you changing the topic of the thread?   Or are you opening a new one?

Merely suggesting that it would make a good topic for a thread.  I will give SDAminister the opportunity to start the OP if he wishes to.

[Gailon Arthur Joy]

Auchwitz has larger and more spectacular tours than any tour 3ABN will ever concoct.

One Nazi rally drew bigger crowds than twenty years worth of 3ABN TC/Campmeetings.

The subsidiaries of Sony, Warner, and Death Row Records have sold more sound tracks in a day than 3ABN Sound Center will sell in a decade.

Record crowds, calls, sales, and hold times are no measure of right or good.

Remember what the members of Heaven's Gate, People's Temple, Colonia Dignidad, the Branch Davidians, the Mujahideen, and innumerable other cults and extremists have said when confronted? Sound familiar? It should. You are doing a great job of making 3ABN sound like just another of those cults. You sound just like them and thats sad and alarming.

Contemplate the truth of this matter, Sam. What would you have been in Germany, Chile, Waco, and many other places?

Where in the world did you get such an idea? You obviously haven't been there so must have gotten this faulty info second or third hand.

 I said before I was able to attend the TC/campmeeting and there were record crowds. They give tours of the facilities and they are unbelievable. There is now a new kids time set which is already operational!  The sound center recording studio has branched out to be able to offer soundtracks to the public.  New programs are in the works!  The ladies that take orders and answer questions at the call center say the phones are busy constantly.  The thursday night lives are more popular than ever. I know, I called there with a question one thursday night and was on hold for 18 minutes!

Next time you take one of your walks, contemplate the truth of this matter instead of how you want it to be.

Habanero and Bob,  My post had nothing whatsoever to do with record crowds or "numbers games" as you have stated. It was about the "Life" of 3abn which, to me, is defined as it's outreach, it's ministry, the growing and expansion..... My comments were in answer to SSOM's post and insinuation that poor 3abn was going down the drain never to be heard from again when in reality as I saw for myself, it is THRIVING!  God is good.

Mr. Pickle,

be sure to pick this up and keep it for the record...further evidence that there has been no damages to 3ABN. This is good!!! Can we get Sam to testify to the Jury along with those 1000 souls...pretty critical testimony as one key element of a defamation claim is damages, and SAM asserts it is clearly just not there!!!

Why with an affidavitt from SAM, we could move to dismiss...or move a request for Summary Judgement...think we can get an affidavitt from SAM???

Keep up the good work SAM...you are such a help!!! Clarity is everything!!!

Gailon Arthur Joy